Rust or bullet lube?

[54bore]

Heres my dilemma or maybe its not? i spent some serious time (hours!) cleaning my renegade barrel bore down to bare steel and then i use oil to coat everything externally and run a few oiled patches thru the bore to coat and protect it from rust. I have read many mixed reviews/opinions on bore butter, i have been using it as bullet lube ONLY, or wonder lube 1000 plus but not in combination, just one or the other. My new cabelas hawken was easy to get the bore scrubbed out clean since it was a new gun (not all new guns are easy to clean, in fact most new guns are tough to get clean and require quite a bit of 'getting after it' to get the cosmoline out that is used to coat and protect) but the new cabelas hawken was a breeze. I took the new hawken out yesterday and shot some new cast lee R.E.A.L. 440 boolits, i only shot the gun 6-8 shots and i swabbed with windex between shots like idahoron uses, i am using the windex that has amonia in it. When i got home i thought to myself this thing will be a breeze to get scrubbed back out to bare steel, boy was i wrong! My cleaning process is done in the bathtub in a 5 gallon bucket that i fill about a quarter to half full with warm water, i take the nipple out and let it soak in solvent, then start with a soapy patch, (i use dawn dish soap) i pour a generous amount down the barrel itself and then some on a good fitting patch and start back in forth, with the nipple out it pushes and pulls the water in and out of the barrel and works really well, i then take a good bronze bore brush and pour a little more soap on the bristles and make 10-12 strokes, then go back to a new patch, i pour the dirty water out of the bucket and change it with clean after the first go around since its always the nastiest, when i finally get patches to come out white and clean i feel im done, WRONG AGAIN! After rinsing the barrel out/off real good with clean running water i take a towel and dry it off as good as i can get it, and then run a few dry patches down the bore to dry it out and HERE is where it gets interesting, the drying patches come out a rusty brown color? Back to the bucket i go, nipple back in place and capped off i pour boiling hot water down the barrel with a funnel, i do this a few times, then back to scrubbing with soapy brush and patches until i ACTUALLY do get it COMPLETELY clean, i then use my air compressor to blow any moisture out from under the rib, sights, etc. and use a good quality gun oil to coat and protect everything inside and out. I apologize in advance, i know this was long and likely boring to read but it has me scratching my head? The only thing that can be doing this is the bore butter, and the wonder lube 1000 plus, it must be carmalizing/melting and sticking to the bore each shot? This is a battle i cant see winning? Shoot a couple hours and then clean for 4! I know idahoron uses paper patched bullets, i have watched his video on cleaning a triditional muzzleloader and i pretty much follow it to a T, except when i feel no other choice but to use REALLY hot water to get the gunk out, i have also used the MAP cleaner (murphys oil, alcohol, and peroxide in equal parts) Is there a home made bullet lube or store bought bullet lube that is easy to clean out? Do i even need to be worrying about this since i am not using paper patched bullets? Thanks guys, and again sorry about the rambling

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Bore butter/wonder lube actually contains paraffin wax which is petroleum.

Hot boiling water with a scrub brush and a lot of time is the best way to remove that stuff from your bore.

[bubba.50]

when it comes to Dawn, the old sayin' "less is more" applies here. just a few drops in yer cleanin' water. and if I was gonna swab with Windex I would use the one with vinegar instead of the one with ammonia. luck & have a good'en , bubba.

[triggerhappy243]

I will ease your pain right here. it is not the bore butter.... it is the raw iron that is rusting/oxidation/ flash rusting. This is normal to see this rust residue when you use water to clean. I use boiling hot water....HOT-HOT-HOT WATER. but once it is clean(no black...), then I dry it and immediately oil the steel. Some shooters do not use any water based cleaning solvents whatso ever. Try other cleaning solutions next time and see if any "BROWN"comes out. Brown is always rust residue, Black is always powder fouling.

[triggerhappy243]

ammonia is actually corrosive on steel.

[Sharpsman]

I don't intend to break the barrel out of the stock of a very accurate GRRW Hawken rifle I own to do the hot water 'bucket method' to clean! I went that route 50 years ago with a T/C .50 I owned and no more! The friggin tenon and wedges would be worn out after a while so I'll use the same method I used to clean other blackpowder rifles with which was a 1-7 ratio of cutting oil to water to 'wipe' the bore and internal breech area with! The best thing to remove blackpowder fouling with is WATER....period! It just so happened that I always wiped with the ratio given above and I never had any fouling/leading or crud left within the bore! After a day or session of shooting I'd run maybe four patches of cutting oil/water through the bore on a plastic brush and then a couple of dry patches; the last one with a veggie oil! I've heard that Ballistol is good! The next time I shoot I run a dry patch or two down the bore and then start shooting! I remove the nipple and clean that area and run a pipe stem cleaner down through the flash hole area at least six inches. After cleaning the nipple I install and run a patch with virgin olive oil down into the bore...or canola oil and then fire a cap on the nipple! I have yet to detect any rust within the bore and the accuracy is excellent! I don't use 'spit patches'; if you do...that's great! I use patches lubed with either virgin olive oil or canola oil!:bigsmyl2:

[54bore]

I will ease your pain right here. it is not the bore butter.... it is the raw iron that is rusting/oxidation/ flash rusting. This is normal to see this rust residue when you use water to clean. I use boiling hot water....HOT-HOT-HOT WATER. but once it is clean(no black...), then I dry it and immediately oil the steel. Some shooters do not use any water based cleaning solvents whatso ever. Try other cleaning solutions next time and see if any "BROWN"comes out. Brown is always rust residue, Black is always powder fouling.

I can NOT gaurantee it, but id be willing to bet everything i own that this is NOT flash rust in the bore after my cleaning, with the breech in about 3-6 inches of warm water (not hot) in a 5 gallon bucket, i run a bronze bristle brush with dawn dish soap on it up and down the bore 10-12 strokes and then patches (back n forth between the 2) until they come out perfectly white and clean, the whole time im pulling fresh clean warer in the barrel and pushing it back out the nipple thead hole, i even change the 3-6 inches of water in the bucket a few times to get rud of any gunk that ive flushed out, and within a minute or 2 at the most i run dry patches through the barrel to dry it out and this is where i am seeing the brown color come up? I would agree with you if i left the barrel wet inside for any length of time at all, but i literally run dry patches within a couple minutes at most to dry the barrel out good so it doesnt have time to rust. I am familiar with flash rust, it happens almost immediately on blued steel with HOT HOT HOT water as it dries, i believe its the wonder lube/bore butter coated inside the barrel, mind you when i shoot i start with a 'down to bare steel barrel' before i shoot i run a couple of dry patches through the barrel to get the gun oil out that was in it during storage, those patches look like gun oil, NO RUST what so ever, after a couple 3 dry patches i leave one on the jag and push it all the way to the end and i snap a couple caps then pull the ramrod out and inspect for burn look on the patch. I then load my powder, and lube a bullet with either bore butter or wonder lube, seat it, and shoot. I swab between shots with the windex that has amonia in it (just like idahoron) they come out black and nasty as expected, i usually run a couple of wet ones through and then dry ones to dry the barrel back out, and the last dry one i leave it all the way in and pop a couple more caps off to get the snail dried out, pull the ramrod and check the patch for burnt look, then start the loading process over again.

[54bore]

Benchmark custom barrels out of arlington wa told me years ago to NEVER fire a bullet with rem oil stil in the barrel, there are pictures somewhere on the net of the owner (ron cinema) trying to scrub a barrel out after it was shot with rem oil stil in it, he says it creates a carmalized state in the barrel and all but welds itself to the steel, and is absolutely horrendous to get out. I believe this is the case with the bore butter/wonder lube but i could be wrong? I am shooting maxi balls, maxi hunters, and lee R.E.A.L. Bullets, the maxis have deep lube grooves as you all know and i am filling them full of bore butter, or wonder lube 1000 plus prior to shooting.

[54bore]

When i swab between shots i am getting the normal black gunk out from blackpowder (Goex 2F) but i dont think i am getting the wonder lube/bore butter out, i believe it is coating the inside of the barrel and staying put, building up after each shot, and when i get home and start the cleaning process thats when i find it. Again i could be wrong? Thats why i am on here asking.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

What I learned about bore butter. I shot my kentucky one day, decided to give those pre lubed seasoning patches a dry again and 2 days later I checked to see how it was doing.
163761

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Great read here as well,
https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch5/msg00973.html

[54bore]

As I have said to many.. I was a bore butter user, but never again. I had the misfortune of bore butter building up in my barrel (not knowing) and stealing the accuracy of the rifle. It ended up costing me the longest tracking job on a wounded deer in my life.

When I was talking to an old black powder shooter (who taught me a lot about shooting these rifles) about the problem he immediately told me I was a bore butter user and that the barrel was clogged.

Like Doegirl described, I spent the next couple hours getting that stuff out of the barrel. I have never used it since and my accuracy is back and exceptional.

When I clean my rifles, I always use hot water. In my traditional rifles, I have a tea kettle going while I clean the rifle. Before I end my cleaning, I take the barrel outside and pour that boiling water through the barrel a number of times. Then wearing gloves I run two solvent patches through that hot barrel and finally some dry patches. Once the barrel cools I patch Birchwood Casey Sheath or Breakfree CLP down the barrel. Some of them have been sitting on racks for a long time and never rusted at all.

I have no intention of seasoning my barrel. I treat all my muzzleloaders like they were a center fire and have had great results because of it. Before I shoot, a simple alcohol patch down the barrel removes any oils and dirt. Then some dry patches and pop a cap or two and I am good to go.

[54bore]

That last post i tried to copy and paste from another forum, i did not write that. Ive read lots of stuff like this on bore butter, some say its great, while others despise it!

[DW475]

This is a great thread. I've been using T/C Natural Lube in my muzzle loaders since I got my first one back in the 80s. I only shoot patch round balls and haven't noticed the accuracy suffering and I haven't encountered any issues with rust but now you got me thinking I better pull them out and check since they've been in the safe for a while.

[webfoot10]

Stop using all that soap. It takes any seasoning out of the steel. Use just water to dissolve
the blackpowder fouling, rinse till it runs clear then run patches through till it's clean and dry.
Then oil with olive oil or borebutter. You want it like a well seasoned frying pan. I've shot my
smoothbore for 20 yrs. and have never used any soap. I use bear oil in my bore and have never
had any rust.
webfoot10

[triggerhappy243]

QUOTE: I have no intention of seasoning my barrel. I treat all my muzzleloaders like they were a center fire and have had great results because of it. Before I shoot, a simple alcohol patch down the barrel removes any oils and dirt. Then some dry patches and pop a cap or two and I am good to go. UNQUOTE:

I treat my barrels like a cast iron skillet. I use the bore butter for a bullet lube. I use a penetrating oil on my burning hot barrel as a preservative. I know for a fact you are dealing with flash rust. I have been dealing with it since 1981, when I got my first 54 cal. renegade. The steel has a high iron content. The pores will hold condensation. As it cools, the flash rust appears. And I live in a dry climate to boot.

I will go on to elaborate what I do to clean out my barrrels. I start with boiling hot water.... and dawn dish soap. bronse bore brush of the appropriete size. insert breech end in hot water and start scrubbing the crapola out of the barrel. then with a jag and a patch, start to draw up the hot water using up and down strokes at a fast pace. hot water heats up barrel, flushes all the crud out the nipple port. change the water and repeat. By now I cannot hold on to the barrel with my bare hand.. when the patches come out dry and clean, I will run the oil in to displace any water in the pores of the bore. let the barrel cool, wipe out the barrel and re-oil. P.S. I clean between shots too.

[sharps4590]

I've been using Bore Butter/1000 Lube since the early 80's or I guess about the time it came out, not certain when that was. I do believe in time it will accumulate in the grooves of a barrel and can spoil accuracy. I am also convinced it turns brown over time and not a very long time. However, my experience has been that as I always clean with boiling water, not hot tap water, boiling water only, no soap, it appears that the wax from the lube is thoroughly cleaned from the bore. I've had some of my rifles for 40 years and I cannot tell their accuracy has diminished....other than my eyesight not being as sharp in my 60's as it was in my 20's.

Using boiling water I am convinced some flash rust does occur but I have never found it detrimental. I also have a theory about using the boiling water. I believe it expands all those tiny cracks and fissures that are in any barrel and allows the fouling to be removed from them. I always coat the bore, usually with the same Bore Butter, while the barrel is entirely too hot to hold with your bare hand. I believe that while the barrel is that hot it penetrates into those "cracks and fissures" then as the barrel cools the excess is squeezed out by contraction of the metal. I believe that action effectively seals the bore, creating an anaerobic condition where actual rust cannot form. When I swab the bore(s) before shooting I always get some brown on the patch but have proven to my satisfaction it is the Bore Butter, not rust. They are different in both appearance and texture.

I can't prove some of that and I may be as crazy as a pet coon, I don't know. However, having been using this same method for well over 30 years I can't argue with my results. I believe that perhaps the biggest thing about cleaning a muzzleloader is finding a method you are both happy with and trust not to ruin your bore. There is more than one way to do it and do so correctly.

Peroxide is an oxidant and I think vinegar is too, it is certainly acidic, but am not certain. I never use either of them for cleaning any rifle....but am a big fan of vinegar for other uses!!!

[54bore]

I know for a fact you are dealing with flash rust. I have been dealing with it since 1981, when I got my first 54 cal. renegade


Triggerhappy243, Heres one to ponder, when i do get my barrel fully scrubbed out and clean (of what im confident is baked on bore butter/wonderlube) how come the flash rust all of a sudden ends? After i boil the barrel a few times, scrub the holy daylights out of it, then patch, back to brush, and patch until clean, then i rinse the barrel thoroughly, dry the surface, and immediately run dry patches down to dry it out, and wala NO MORE RUSTY LOOKING GUNK, how come it just vanishes eventually? i get my guns FULLY clean everytime, down to bare steel, and then run a couple patches thru that are soaked with high quality gun oil, i have the nipple threads coated with anti sieze and put back in when i run the oily patches through, i get a bit of oil to mist out the nipple and on to the hammer, i prop em up with a paper towel folded and placed between the nipple and hammer to catch any drippings, i want my guns FULLY coated. Before i shoot, i remove all of the oil from the barrel with as many dry patches as i feel needed, then pop a couple caps agains a clean patched jag to dry out the snail area.

[54bore]

I was using the wonder lube 1000 plus on my outing the other day with the .58 cal, i know for a fact the barrel was completely clean to bare steel!!! I only shot the gun 6 times, a whopping 6 times!! And when i got home and started to clean, it took me well over an hour of scrubbing and patching to get it back to bare steel, i had to resort to boiling water, and even used some old E-Z clean Eliminater blackpowder solvent my dad had given me, i finally got the patches to come out like brand new, cotton white clean. Did i defeat the wonder lube 1000 plus, or did i win the battle with flash rust? I'll go with defeating wonder lube 1000, That stuff fire bonds to the inside of the barrel and is a bastard to get out!! And it starts welding itself to the barrel the very first shot, and in my opinion will build up layer over layer, shot after shot

[mooman76]

Some lubes turn brown over time also, it isn't always rust. I'm not sure how someone can "know for a fact" when they haven't even seen it first hand or even photos. I quit using bore butter when I checked my barrels(after a couple years and saw a very small amount of, what I though was rust. I now believe it wasn't but even if it was it was a very tiny amount. I have been having a few rust issues as of late. Started a couple years ago when I changed my cleaning technique. Once it starts, it's hard to get it to stop. I'm now back to my old original way of cleaning.

[bubba.50]

usin' that bronze bore brush could be part of yer problem. can't remember where but, I read somewhere that there's a reaction between the bronze & steel that will cause yer patches to have color on them no matter how much you clean.

[54bore]

usin' that bronze bore brush could be part of yer problem. can't remember where but, I read somewhere that there's a reaction between the bronze & steel that will cause yer patches to have color on them no matter how much you clean.

I agree with that bubba, i use a product called Bore tech eliminator in my center fire rifles to remove copper foul, they tell you to use a nylon brush due to it reacting to a bronze bristle brush, i have tried it with a bronze brush and it DEFINATELY reacts to it. I know this is a different situation with my muzzlestuffers as im not using a harsh product like that in my cleaning process, but i can say from first hand experience if you try this as an experiment you will see, if you take a bronze bristle brush to a CLEAN DOWN TO STEEL barrel and then run a new cotton white patch through, you will get some off color on the patch, and im confident its coming from the brush, but its a different color than the brownish yellow gunk i get that im convinced is from burned on wonder lube 1000 plus/bore butter

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

seasoning your barrel. WAUGH! :D its not cast iron.

[54bore]

How to Clean an Inline Muzzleloader
By Randy Wakeman ( RandyMagic@aol.com)

I've received more correspondence regarding cleaning an inline muzzleloader than I expected. Apparently, some great mystery has been ascribed to this, although you would think that after all these years we would have figured it out by now. Though I'm hesitant to state there is only one "best" or even "better" way, it need not be a frightening or formidable task. You really don't need any esoteric or unique concoctions, although those who sell them would rather you believe that is the case.
Shooting an in-line muzzleloader causes two basic types of fouling: ignition-based and propellant based. The ignition-based residue is the bulk of the primer compound that coats actions and the inside of breech plugs. The primer energetic primarily leaves behind carbon composites, which can be dealt with efficiently by various automotive carburetor and parts cleaners--Permatex "Pro-Strength Brake & Parts Cleaner" is one specific example. The more aggressive gunmetal cleaners as Brownells "TCE" or "Gun Scrubber" work just as well, if not better. Most metal cleaners that contain trichloroethylene, used in conjunction with a bronze brush, break up the carbon crud quickly. An often-overlooked area is the internal breech plug threads of your barrel, which should receive the benefit of a good brushing.
Any light machinery oil will protect the now bare metal, though I've long felt that a drop or two of Breakfree CLP is the best thing you can apply as a protectant. Contingent on gun, a wipe with Breakfree around the very lightly fouled areas (perhaps the trigger group) is all you need. The worst product ever applied to guns, in my experience, is WD-40. A good irrigant, squeak stopper and penetrant, it is a very poor lubricant or protectant, with a low film strength. You are far better off with motor oil than this aromatic gun-wrecker. Though WD-40 is not the pits for everything, it is a very good way to find them in your barrel.
As for the barrel itself, water is touted as all you need for cleanup of Hodgdon's "Triple Seven" from gun bores, though you really don't need much more than that with black powder or Pyrodex. After all, spit patching between saboted projectile shots is all that is normally required, though some may be blessed with more cleansing spittle than others.
A plastic pail of hot water with a few drops of laundry detergent added does the trick, just shoving your muzzle in the bucket and working your bore brush up and down a half dozen strokes is all you need. Finish with a dry patch, and then a Breakfree CLP patch (which is also a mild cleaner) and you are good to store your weapon.
On the road, a bottle of any of the commercial black powder cleaners is handy. That, a handful of patches, your jag, and a small "to go" bottle of Breakfree is all you need. Windex (yes, with ammonia) is a very good bore cleaner.
Dan Lilja of Lilja Precision Rifle barrels has never seen any damage in one of his barrels caused by the use of ammonia. Dan writes: "The rumor is that copper-removing cleaners with ammonia will pit and damage the interior surface of a barrel. Ammonia is very effective as a copper remover. We use solvents, such as Butch's Bore Shine, to remove copper during the break-in. We routinely leave Butch's solution in the barrel over night too. Again, I repeat, we have never seen a problem with ammonia in the concentrations found in commercial cleaners, in either our chrome-moly or stainless steel barrels. This includes examination with our borescope." Black powder enthusiasts have universally praised Dan's personal favorite barrel cleaning solvent, "Butch's Bore Shine."
The snake oil "Bore Butter" concoctions of various animal fats and wax are better off left where they came from--the pot of rotting miscellaneous flesh and animal carcasses bubbling at your local rendering plant. The idea that your modern steel barrel can be seasoned like a cast iron skillet has no basis unless your barrel is also cast iron and you cook pizzas in it regularly. Some of the earlier lubricants were outstanding, like sperm whale oil. Bear grease and bacon drippings were never good, but when that's all you have, that's the best you can do.
There are times when I wonder if the removable breech plug was invented just to give in-line muzzleloader shooters something to complain about. The Thompson "Hawken" breechplug is also removable, but few do, and so few carp about it. Any viscous, high temperature grease works for the fractions of a second our breech plugs see direct heat in a range session, but I've found Bostik "Never-Seez" and other readily available automotive "Anti-Seize" products that meet Mil-Spec 907E to be as good as can be had. Breechplugs vary by manufacturer, but the key seems to be just to be sure to coat all the threads.
Triple Seven, a sugar-based propellant, has gained a reputation for causing problems in a few guns. To eliminate that problem, taking the time to crack and then retighten the breechplug after a few shots at the range will break the bond line it can form, and makes removal at the end of the day much, much easier. The "crack the plug then retighten" sequence helps in almost all inlines, regardless of propellant. The first time you try it you'll be convinced as well.
The issue of plastic fouling from sabots has been a bit overstated. With the latest formulations of polyethylene, it is not the issue that it once was. Yet, depending on gun and load, I have seen plastic fouling build-up after a couple of hundred shots. Plastic solvents, such as shotgun choke tube cleaner, run through with a patch after every hundred shots or so, will usually prevent it from becoming an issue. A metal cleaner with the warning "will harm plastics" applied to the bore also takes care of it, as that is the idea.
A quick summary is that all you really need is hot water and elbow grease to clean, then Breakfree CLP to protect, with an anti-seize for your breech plug. Windex or Butch's Bore Shine can speed along the barrel cleaning process a bit, as can Brownell's TCE or Gunscrubber for the small, primer residue fouled parts. There really isn't much more to it; it's just important that you do it as soon as practical after making some smoke.

[54bore]

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif RE: Bore Butter causes rust??
Bore Butter, Natural Lube 1000 or Wonder Lube is all the same thing. I used to be a Bore Butter user all the time. I had two different rifles rust using it, and if anyone is fussy when it comes to cleaning their rifles, it is me. I was lucky I shoot so often and that I noticed it right away and it was only surface rust and some J.B. Bore Paste and a brass brush took it out. I was so shocked when I ran a patch down my Bore Butter Seasoned Barrel and it came back out rust brown. Talk about a photo oppertunity for surprised look on their face....

Also the accuracy in my T/C Renegade got so terrible, I no longer trusted the rifle. I missed a shot (during our deer season) I could have made with a different rifle and my eyes closed, and ended up wounding a nice little buck. Three of us did manage to walk the critter down, and I admit the .54 caliber did enough damage it finally layed down, but it was a long walk and a longer drag out.....

I then did a boiling soap water bath with the rifle and some oven mitts. Then I plugged the barrel and filled it with M.A.P. and after it sat for 30 minutes I bore brushed the devil out of it. After that I gave it another boiling water bath and then ran solvent patches through it until they came out white, not rust colored or gray, but white. My testing showed the accuracy was back to normal.

When I went back to the rifle's original load the next day I shot a nice doe at over 60 yards as she walked past the stand. The roundball hit right where it was supposed to. That was the last time I ever tried to season a barrel.

The problem with a sidelock is there is really no way to be 100% certain you have the barrel and breech clean. How many times have you cleaned your rifle, then later, ran a solvent patch or a follow up oil patch down the barrel for one reason or another and it came up brown with rust.

The difference between using the bore butter and a petrolium based solvent clean barrel is that you might not have to swab the bore as often using bore butter. They claim in their add that you do not have to swab the bore between shots, well you will still have to if the projectile gets too hard to seat properly. Some people have claimed that they shot 30 times in a row without swabbing. I guess I just do not trust the stuff anymore as something to prevent rust from forming.

I am not telling anyone not to use bore butter. If you have good luck with it then by all means use it. All I am saying is I had a bad experience using it more then once. For that reason I use Birchwood Casey Bore Scrubber, Butch's Bore Shine, M.A.P. and hot water to clean the bores of my rifles. After I am all done I protect them with a patch of Birchwood Casey Sheath or REM OIL, but I like the Birchwood Casey the best. Nice smell too...

Use what you trust and feel comfortable with. If you are a bore butter user, how often do you brush the bore to remove the buildup of the stuff? As I said in the other post, I season my fry pan not my rifle barrel. I have an old barrel around here that I no longer shoot. I think I will conduct an experiment with bore butter..... sounds like an interesting test...
__________________
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, a total wreck, screaming Yahoo, with a big smile on your face."

[triggerhappy243]

let me propose a small short test then. Clean your barrel like you stated so you get no more brown. Do not use any bore butter to season. let it set for a few days, and without firing it, repeat the cleaning process all over just as if it had been fired. when you get to the point of dry patching the barrel but before you pass oily patches, look at the dry patches.... what is coming out. Please do not take my posts as beating up on you. I am not. I am just sharing what I have experienced with my barrels.

[mooman76]

I don't think BB causes rust but does very little to protect against it. I never had a problem with it but I have lived in a dry climate for the past 30 years too. I also believe some oils we put in bores when done cleaning leach some of the dirt/fouling left behind that we though we got all of it out.

[ShooterAZ]

^^^ this! I use BB as a bullet lubricant and it does a decent job of it. I believe rem oil does draw out more fouling after an overnight soak.

[54bore]

Please do not take my posts as beating up on you. I am not. I am just sharing what I have experienced with my barrels.

No offense taken what so ever! I just have a different theory on this stuff, and its obvious that im not alone! The reason i started the topic was to debate it. I have NEVER used bore butter or wonder lube 1000 plus as a rust preventative during storage and i NEVER WILL, i use a good quality gun oil for that purpose. I have used both wonder lube and bore butter as bullet lube ONLY to fill the lube grooves of maxi balls etc. before i send them down range, i am confident that the stuff bonds itself and leaves a coating inside the barrel after each shot, It wouldnt bother me if it was easy to get out, but i have found that it is NOT easy to get out!! And thats only after a half dozen shots, i can only imagine years of use if you have never fully stripped it from the barrel! I would like to find an easier to clean bullet groove lube (if it exists?) to make the cleaning a little easier when i get home.

[ShooterAZ]

I swab between shots with Butch's Bore Shine for black powder, a couple of wet patches followed by a couple of dry ones. This seems to make cleaning much easier once I get home. I still get a bit of residue on the patches the next day after coating the bore with rem oil. I check the next day again, and have never found any more. The patches come out pure white.

[54bore]

I don't think BB causes rust but does very little to protect against it. I never had a problem with it but I have lived in a dry climate for the past 30 years too. I also believe some oils we put in bores when done cleaning leach some of the dirt/fouling left behind that we though we got all of it out.

Mooman76, i agree, i don't think bore butter causes rust either, i believe if the barrel is BONE DRY and you use it as a protectant it probably works just fine, so long as the barrel is BONE DRY before applying, but in my opinion a good quality gun oil swabbed back n forth through the 'DOWN TO STEEL CLEAN BARREL' is a superior method, again thats my opinion, i have used this method for nearly 30 years on centerfire rifles and pistols without a problem of any kind. My issue with bore butter/wonder lube 1000 plus as a bullet lube ONLY is the stuff glues itself in the barrel shot after shot and is tough to get out!

[mooman76]

54bore, I agree there on the oil rust protectant. I have never had a problem though with BB building up except for the fact after a few shots, I have to swab or accuracy goes south quick bit I don't use it much even when I do use it and I use it with patched ball for the most part. With patched ball I use it sparingly.

[RPRNY]

I suggest avoiding the use of petroleum/hydrocarbon solvents, lubes, protectants in firearms used with black powder or its substitutes. A very little dishwashing liquid and hot water is all the cleaning agent required. Perhaps less soap, but otherwise your cleaning regimen sounds right. As a protectant, Ballistol or olive oil will work, although any natural oil may give you a little brown on your patch if left sitting a long time.

I would not willingly apply ammonia to my barrels.

I have heard much of this "seasoning". Modern barrels are made of steel. How one "seasons" steel, I do not know. A layer of a non-petroleum based oil is the best way to keep rust off of it though. If I intend to leave a black powder barrel alone a long time, I run patches up and down it coated thickly with black powder lube. It goes brownish by the time it gets cleaned out, but cleans out easily with olive oil or Ballistol.

I don't know anything about Bore Butter.

[54bore]

Windex (yes, with ammonia) is a very good bore cleaner.
Dan Lilja of Lilja Precision Rifle barrels has never seen any damage in one of his barrels caused by the use of ammonia. Dan writes: "The rumor is that copper-removing cleaners with ammonia will pit and damage the interior surface of a barrel. Ammonia is very effective as a copper remover. We use solvents, such as Butch's Bore Shine, to remove copper during the break-in. We routinely leave Butch's solution in the barrel over night too. Again, I repeat, we have never seen a problem with ammonia in the concentrations found in commercial cleaners, in either our chrome-moly or stainless steel barrels. This includes examination with our borescope." Black powder enthusiasts have universally praised Dan's personal favorite barrel cleaning solvent, "Butch's Bore Shine."

Would be hard for me to go against world renown barrel maker Dan Lilja on the use of amonia in barrels, i would think if anyone would know if the stuff is bad for barrels it would/should be him! I have used barnes CR10 in centerfire rifles for years, i switched a few years ago to a product called Bore tech Eliminator because it worked as well as the CR10 and they claim its actually good to leave in the barrel (i don't personally do that) during storage, i have had great luck with Bore tech and highly recommend it as a copper remover.