need help with 45 colt blackhawk

[mike69]

I have a ruger Blackhawk 45 colt that I cant get it to stop leading the barrel. When I got it it had to small of throats the bore is .451 and the throats where .450 had them opened up to .452 by ssk industries so my boolits just slide threw before I couldn't load the gun the small throats wouldn't let a loaded round fit in the cylinder so got that fixed. I can feel a restriction at the start of the barrel tried to fire lap the barrel with lbt lapping kit the barrel is a lot smoother but still feels like there is a small restriction there. All the leading is at the first inch of barrel. the lead I am using is 2 to 1 cww with pure and a little tin I tried loads from 8gr to 10.5 gr of unique in .5 gr increments the all leaded the barrel with in the first 6 shots. Tried heat treating the same alloy to try it harder same result so I tried the boolets from my 454 casull 1 to 1 lino and pure with a gas check still got leading can shoot that boolit in the 454 100 times at a time with no leading in the 454 was hoping the gas checked boolit would of done better don't know what to do next. The plain base boolit is a 260gr hollow point from noe sc454-290-rf the gas checked was a lbt 280 gr wfn. THe gun was bought as used but was new in the box had no signs of ever being shot it dos shoot some good groups at 25 yards just cant shoot it much. any advice would be appreciated.

[Virginia John]

Two things you might try; slow the bullet down and change your lube. I shoot a Blackhawk without any lead problems.

[mike69]

the 8gr load was 900 fps and I am using white lable 2500+ lube

[C. Latch]

Welcome to my world.

Mine didn't lead very badly until I lapped it. Now it leads up horribly. If shipping wasn't such a pain I'd have dougguy (cylinderhone.net on facebook) do a Taylor throat on it. As it is, I'm very close to having it rebarreled.

[mike69]

Well that's not what I was wanting to here. Was trying to make it better by lapping it sounds like that's not always the way it goes would really like to get it to work without a new barrel

[dubber123]

If it still has a restriction, it needs to go. I have firelapped a fair amount of revolvers, with excellent results each time. The Rugers seem to take a lot of rounds to clean up. The last one I did was a .45 Colt, and shoots with no leading at over 1,300 fps, with a plain based boolit. Don't give up yet.

[High Desert Hunter]

I thought with a restriction at the threads, the leading would come right after the restriction, this sounds like it is before, right after the throat. Have you tried slugging the barrel since you lapped it?

[mike69]

If it still has a restriction, it needs to go. I have firelapped a fair amount of revolvers, with excellent results each time. The Rugers seem to take a lot of rounds to clean up. The last one I did was a .45 Colt, and shoots with no leading at over 1,300 fps, with a plain based boolit. Don't give up yet.

what would you consider a lot ive shot just under 100 when I use the push threw slugs from lbt it still feels tight when it gets to the forcing cone area of the barrel the bullets im using to fire lap it are around 10.5 bhn it is a lot smoother and shines like my stainless guns know.

[mike69]

I thought with a restriction at the threads, the leading would come right after the restriction, this sounds like it is before, right after the throat. Have you tried slugging the barrel since you lapped it?

the leading seams to be rite where the rifleing starts and goes in about an inch. the bore is measuring .451 with my mic

[C. Latch]

what would you consider a lot ive shot just under 100 when I use the push threw slugs from lbt it still feels tight when it gets to the forcing cone area of the barrel the bullets im using to fire lap it are around 10.5 bhn it is a lot smoother and shines like my stainless guns know.


IIRC I shot 165 lapping rounds before I got tired of fighting mine.

It still has the constriction, just less than before. I have contacted a smith about rebarreling and at this point I'm just waiting on him to whittle down his backlog and tell me to send it on.

[mike69]

may try some more and shoot some j boolit for a while if I don't get the leading solved if all else fails ill go for a new barrel and have ssk do it I live close to J D Jones shop and like what iv seen him do with some blackhawks a nice octagon barrel would look good but save that for last. Always wanted a 45 colt Blackhawk finaly got one and have more problems with it then my other guns since Iv started casting. I really appreciate the advice Iv learned a lot from reading on here and the responses I get to my questions

[C. Latch]

may try some more and shoot some j boolit for a while if I don't get the leading solved if all else fails ill go for a new barrel and have ssk do it I live close to J D Jones shop and like what iv seen him do with some blackhawks a nice octagon barrel would look good but save that for last. Always wanted a 45 colt Blackhawk finaly got one and have more problems with it then my other guns since Iv started casting. I really appreciate the advice Iv learned a lot from reading on here and the responses I get to my questions

I had to have my cylinder throats cleaned up, replaced a broken rear sight, replaced a broken transfer bar, and the screw that holds the ERH in place comes loose every few shots. I won't loctite it because it'll have to come off when the new barrel goes on.

Blackhawks are an awesome design but not executed terribly well.

[DougGuy]

I -USED- to have leading when I used commercial cast Keith type boolits with that hard blue lube. I have found that Ruger's rifling and twist rate take to 50/50+2% and Felix lube like a duck to water. I also have great luck with SPG lube. Half the battle is the lube. If you can scratch the boolit, it's probably about right. If you can't scratch it with a thumbnail, mix you some 50/50 coww and pure lead, and get 2% tin in the mix and then try again. I use this alloy in my .45 Colt Vaquero with Ruger Only loads, it kicks like a mule but don't lead the barrel. I never even have to clean it. ALSO, I am using the Lee boolits with gas checks. I have the same thing going on with my .44 magnum SBH, again same alloy, same soft lube, gas check and never even have to clean it.

I should add that my Vaquero has been Taylor throated as it had a horribly constricted bore, at .448" best I could measure it.

Both mine have had the cylinder throats reamed to .4525" and .4325" respectively..

[mike69]

I -USED- to have leading when I used commercial cast Keith type boolits with that hard blue lube. I have found that Ruger's rifling and twist rate take to 50/50+2% and Felix lube like a duck to water. I also have great luck with SPG lube. Half the battle is the lube. If you can scratch the boolit, it's probably about right. If you can't scratch it with a thumbnail, mix you some 50/50 coww and pure lead, and get 2% tin in the mix and then try again. I use this alloy in my .45 Colt Vaquero with Ruger Only loads, it kicks like a mule but don't lead the barrel. I never even have to clean it. ALSO, I am using the Lee boolits with gas checks. I have the same thing going on with my .44 magnum SBH, again same alloy, same soft lube, gas check and never even have to clean it.

I should add that my Vaquero has been Taylor throated as it had a horribly constricted bore, at .448" best I could measure it.

Both mine have had the cylinder throats reamed to .4525" and .4325" respectively..

OK sounds like I have a few things to try was running out of ideas on my own. could you tell me what the Taylor throating is I haven't been around the hand guns for that long have heard of but not sure exactly what it involves.

[DougGuy]

When you have a barrel that is thread choked from the factory torquing it into the frame very tightly, it chokes the boolits down as they are fired through it, and leaves them undersized as they travel down the bore, powder gas escapes along the sides of the boolit and leads the daylights out of the bore and there is a loss of accuracy.

Taylor throat reaming removes the choked part of the rifling and makes basically a lengthened forcing cone that centers and squares the boolit as it enters the throat, it not only clears the choked part but you get a velocity increase, decreased pressure and generally accuracy improves greatly after Taylor throating.

This is a Taylor throated barrel that was severely choked but now there is no choke and it shoots great, no leading, very accurate.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat1%20Custom_zpsovrgma93.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat1%20Custom_zpsovrgma93.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat2%20Custom_zpskqwyaa9l.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat2%20Custom_zpskqwyaa9l.jpg.html)

[mike69]

Thanks Dougguy that's what I was wanting to know and that looks better than what my gun looks like in mine it almost looks like the rifling is not square or as uniform where the forcing cone ends well at least I have some thing to try now may have to get with you later heard nothing but good things about your work

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting revolvers a very long time and have seen the type of leading you describe on quite a few occasions. I have never lapped a barrel nor worried about a constriction to get rid of the leading. Based on my experience here are the reasons, in no particular order. It can be a combination of reasons.

1. Hard bevel base bullets with crappy wax lube. Softer bullets and softer lube will take care of this.
2. A rough forcing cone. Lapping the forcing cone with a brass lap and 600 grit compound will cure this.
3. If the tool marks in the forcing cone are to great to be lapped out, the cone will have to be recut. Care should be taken that there is a smooth transition to the rifling with no sharp edges to scrap the lead.

[30calflash]

Interesting thread, a question please.

Would the barrel constriction be reduced or go away once the barrel is loosened in the frame?

My thought is maybe back off the barrel shoulder a little (couple thou?) and use some locktite instead of torquing it to Cleveland. I read where a shuetzen gunsmith hand tightened his barrels with locktite instead of torquing.

[dubber123]

what would you consider a lot ive shot just under 100 when I use the push threw slugs from lbt it still feels tight when it gets to the forcing cone area of the barrel the bullets im using to fire lap it are around 10.5 bhn it is a lot smoother and shines like my stainless guns know.

The .45 Blackhawk I did took about 100, all done with 320 grit and 14 Bhn boolits. I have never seen the need to use the finer grits, 320 breaks down finer as soon as it's fired, and bores look like a mirror afterwards. I would either keep lapping, or perhaps have Doug Taylor throat it. I have never had one throated, but I have heard favorable reports.

I would be curious to see what a new barrel slugging would indicate. The slugs done before would have only shown the bore at it's tightest point. I am sure you will get it figured out. Good luck.

[mike69]

Got it cleaned up again did some more measuring the muzzle end is just a hair under .452 and after pushing the slug threw where it gets tight it is .451 going to try some more lapping. If I get the restriction out of it should I go to a .453 boolit since it will be just under .452 on the bore. Slugged my throats and a .453 should fit but be on the tight side. Think I might just get a .453 sizer and try a little bigger boolit my both my molds cast .454. Like to thank you all for the help and advice

[mike69]

Just made up a dummy round with the boolit sized at .454 the round fits in the cylinder fine the boolit is a press fit from the throat side so it should be around .001 over throat and .001 over bore when it gets to it should seal up good. My super redhawk 454 I shot .454 boolits with a .452 bore with good results. Have to size and load some up to try

[44man]

Going over throat is not a good idea.
Might be a good idea to lap some more, Ruger barrels are tough. I think your lapping boolits are too soft too. 14 BHN is where you should be.
One other thing strikes me is using Unique at near 296 pressures. Your pressure rise is very fast so even though the boolit is slower overall then 296 gives, the boolit is hitting the rifling very fast.
Rifling in the Ruger is pretty fast at 1 in 16" so your boolits might not be taking the spin and skidding.
A soft boolit might be sized in the choke and then re-expand to fill the bore but it is still a tough proposition when pressure is already dropping. A slower start and a more sustained pressure rise might help. You are only working with .0005" on each side of the boolit so it should not be as drastic as what you are getting.
Why not try 2400 or 296 and accept a higher velocity since you are right on the tails of the powders with pressure? 296 has 24,600# with 25 gr and 10.5 of Unique is 24,800#.
There is no such thing as a light load, only reduced overall pressure and less recoil but to slam a lead boolit with near 16,000# instantly (8 gr Unique) can still make a putty ball.
If you could recover boolits intact, you might be able to tell more.

[jrayborn]

2400 is "magic" on handguns that lead up at the forcing cone. It can work so if you have some you might try it. Also I have successfully used Lee Liquid Alox in addition to whatever other lube the boolits have to good effect in difficult guns.

[mike69]

Ok I have some boolis that are 13.5 BHN that I can use to lap it some more. I do have 296 and imr 4227 that I use in my 454. where would be a good starting point for the 296 and a 260 to 280 gr bullet don't want to load it like my 454 but don't want to start with to little powder in the case. I haven't seen any 2400 in a long time

[GSaltzman]

Leading will continue in my experience as long as the thread choke is present. Having said that I have a few Rugers that have some choke but it is not bad at all and really doesn't cause problems. If you have 4227 I would try 20 grains with your 260-280 grain bullets. For my Blackhawks this has proven to be a very accurate load in the 45 Colt. I second the comment on 50/50 alloy. I also use FWFL and have recently been using Ben's Red with success. The 50/50 alloy made a big difference for my Rugers.

[mike69]

like to thank every one for the advice looks like I am going to try different powder and do some more lapping I have some bac lube ordered from whit label to try to.The 4227 woks good in my 357 and 454 ill try it

[jrayborn]

Bac lube is very very good :)

[DougGuy]

where would be a good starting point for the 296 and a 260 to 280 gr bullet don't want to load it like my 454 but don't want to start with to little powder in the case. I haven't seen any 2400 in a long time

Yep, 296 needs as high a load density as you can get. It does not like and is not recommended to be loaded below 75% so for loads that are less than about 80% of the available space under the boolit, I would look for a different powder than 296. Save your 296 for when you get it all dimensionally corrected.

[mike69]

Yep, 296 needs as high a load density as you can get. It does not like and is not recommended to be loaded below 75% so for loads that are less than about 80% of the available space under the boolit, I would look for a different powder than 296. Save your 296 for when you get it all dimensionally corrected.

that's what I was wonder on the percentage of case capacity for the 296 the 454 I use it at just about 100% full thanks think the 4227 should be good one to try out of what I have

[mike69]

Bac lube is very very good :)

that's good to here I am using the 2500 now

[Wolfer]

I had the same issue with my new Vaquero when I got it. Fired 60 fire lapping rounds. Helped but didn't fix. I poured lead laps and hand lapped it out.

Before I couldent shoot 50 rounds before accuracy fell off badly. Now I try to clean it every 500/1000 rds but it doesn't really need it.

You can try different powders but I doubt you'll find cast boolit bliss until your thread choke is gone.

[mike69]

[QUOTE=Wolfer;3581471]I had the same issue with my new Vaquero when I got it. Fired 60 fire lapping rounds. Helped but didn't fix. I poured lead laps and hand lapped it out.

Before I couldent shoot 50 rounds before accuracy fell off badly. Now I try to clean it every 500/1000 rds but it doesn't really need it.

You can try different powders but I doubt you'll find cast boolit bliss until your thread choke is gone.[/Q
Yea going to do some more lapping first the one good thing don't have to go any where to shoot have my own range set up behind the house so don't have to travel can shoot and be back to the loading bench to try some different loads if needed in the same day just have to stay positive and keep working with it

[dubber123]

How slow are your lapping loads? They just need to dependably clear the barrel, and can be fired too fast pretty easily.

[44man]

How slow are your lapping loads? They just need to dependably clear the barrel, and can be fired too fast pretty easily.
Yep, you should be able to out run them.
I never shot 4227 from my .45 but it will never go in my .44's again. It does not like a warm .44, any change in the gun's heat.

[9.3X62AL]

Have you mic'ed your expander spud diameter? Die sets are made with a STRONG bias toward use of jacketed bullets. In the case of 45 caliber pistol dies, expander spud diameters are often .447"-.448". A 45 Colt case mouth expanded by such a spud has the potential to "size down" bullets of softer alloy seated into such environments.

Related to this problem--my RCBS tungsten-carbide 45 Colt sizer die reduced case diameter with both W-W and R-P brass to .469". As-fired diameters of both makes ran about .478"-.479", dependent upon load intensity (Ruger BisHawk). Needless to say, case life wasn't long with that sort of working getting done to brass each ammo life cycle. Case life got LOTS better and accuracy improved by use of a steel sizer die (.476" resizing now) and use of a .452" expander spud with .454" cast bullets (throats honed to .453" for .452" grooves). Size matters, and this rubric applies far beyond just barrel/bullet relationship.

[9.3X62AL]

I never shot 4227 from my .45 but it will never go in my .44's again. It does not like a warm .44, any change in the gun's heat.

Interesting observation. I have next-to-zero experience with the 4227 powders. More of a 2400 enthusiast here.

[KCSO]

If your forcing cone doesn't look like the Taylor in the picture you need to have it reamed and polished a rough forcing cone is a major cause of leading. I just ream and polish all of the ones that come through as a matter of course.

[44man]

Interesting observation. I have next-to-zero experience with the 4227 powders. More of a 2400 enthusiast here.
IHMSA for years of experience. You will not believe how the 4227's behave in a .44.
2400 is still one of the greats. It worked then and it still works. But for the higher end 296 is a Rugers love.
Now I do NOT know what 4227 will do in a .45, after the .44's I have never been inclined to try it.

[mike69]

How slow are your lapping loads? They just need to dependably clear the barrel, and can be fired too fast pretty easily.

I can catch them in a box of rags about ten feet in front of the barrel

[mike69]

IHMSA for years of experience. You will not believe how the 4227's behave in a .44.
2400 is still one of the greats. It worked then and it still works. But for the higher end 296 is a Rugers love.
Now I do NOT know what 4227 will do in a .45, after the .44's I have never been inclined to try it.

The 4227 has been pretty good in my 454 and 357 going to try 296 in the 454 shot some but just at steel haven't really checked group size with a target yet ill try it in the 45 when I get it figured out going to lap it some more and try the 4227 this weekend have to make up some more lapping rounds

[dubber123]

I can catch them in a box of rags about ten feet in front of the barrel

It sounds like you are good then. I can clearly see mine fly in the larger bores. I have heard of some people trying to lap with much too hot of a load, so I thought I would ask. Als question about your dies is a good thought, I think I went through a few sets of 45 LC dies until I made up a set that did what I needed them to. Too small of an expander can be a big problem.

[mike69]

It sounds like you are good then. I can clearly see mine fly in the larger bores. I have heard of some people trying to lap with much too hot of a load, so I thought I would ask. Als question about your dies is a good thought, I think I went through a few sets of 45 LC dies until I made up a set that did what I needed them to. Too small of an expander can be a big problem.

have to take some measurements and see what they are that's one I never thought of

[GSaltzman]

When it comes to expander plugs Buckshot from this forum makes mine plus I have started using some from NOE. In my opinion the best way to go.

[mike69]

My brass as fired is .476 gets sized to .469 the expander is .453 takes the brass up to .472 and with a 452 boolit in it it goes to.475 I am using lee dies. I do use the lee fcd but it does not touch the brass when crimping so shouldn't cause any sizing down of the boolit. dose that sound ok with those dimensions ?

[9.3X62AL]

IHMSA for years of experience. You will not believe how the 4227's behave in a .44.
2400 is still one of the greats. It worked then and it still works. But for the higher end 296 is a Rugers love.
Now I do NOT know what 4227 will do in a .45, after the .44's I have never been inclined to try it.

WW-296/H-110 was a long-term fixture in the Magnum revolvers with jacketed bullets for me. J-words get little play here anymore, and 2400 does such good work with the castings that I don't stray far from it.

[44man]

The 4227 has been pretty good in my 454 and 357 going to try 296 in the 454 shot some but just at steel haven't really checked group size with a target yet ill try it in the 45 when I get it figured out going to lap it some more and try the 4227 this weekend have to make up some more lapping rounds
Be very careful with 296 in the .454! You NEED max loads or it can fail to ignite and will stick boolits and powder in the bore. The SR primer is wrong and only solved by cutting down .460 brass so you can use a LP mag primer. If you fool with any starting loads in the .454, carry a brass rod and hammer, Pay attention to EVERY shot and make sure the boolits exit.
I do things different then everyone and use harder boolits. I use Hornady dies that have a very short expander for jacketed and I let my boolit do the final expanding. I will never give up tension for ease of seating--NO "M" or over size expanders here.
My .45 Vaquero has done this at 50 yards when I could see and has done 1" at 75 yards. 163861

[44man]

I don't remember the boolit I used but only had 2, the Lyman 320 and the LBT 335 gr. 21.5 gr of 296 with a Fed 150 primer. At 75 one was 1" right of the bull and the other 1" left, same size group.
I dropped a deer with a neck shot, off hand at 100-110 yards with it. I do have lighter boolits used with 7 gr of Unique for cans and they shoot very good but I never try to reach deer levels with the fast powders. You NEED energy. You NEED accuracy first of all when hunting.
The old saw of "PLACEMENT" goes away with a handgun waving around. A deer is VERY small at 100+ and as you get older it gets worse. It gets tough at 20 yards.
Make use of all you can learn when young and test everything. It will be harder at old age.

[Swede44mag]

I was going to post a question about my (new) new model SS Ruger Blackhawk while slugging the barrel with a pure lead round ball once I got it started it went down the barrel then got tighter before it exited the forcing cone measuring .450 with my Starrett Micrometer. I have opened the cylinder throats (.450 to .4525) using a reamer I bought from Brownells to do my Vaquero. Doesn't Ruger know about this problem or is it they don't care. I haven't thought about fire lapping the bore.

[44man]

I don't know Ruger's problem with the .45 and Yes I had to lap my throats.
Gun makers do not consider cast or handloads.

[spfd1903]

"Doesn't Ruger know about this problem or is it they don't care. I haven't thought about fire lapping the bore."

My .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk shot Hornady 250 grain HP/XTP's very accurately out of the box, but would not do the same with any type of boolit. After the cylinder throats were reamed to .452+ and the forcing cone got an 11 degree cut, the accuracy of my boolits is fantastic. If I sent it to Ruger, they would have fired some commercial bullets, and sent it back with a great group on a target. I knew from reading this forum that 44man summed it up accurately...they don't make them with boolit casters in mind. We are on our own. I had the same issue with a NM Ruger Vaquero (.45 Colt).

[9.3X62AL]

My brass as fired is .476 gets sized to .469 the expander is .453 takes the brass up to .472 and with a 452 boolit in it it goes to.475 I am using lee dies. I do use the lee fcd but it does not touch the brass when crimping so shouldn't cause any sizing down of the boolit. dose that sound ok with those dimensions ?

It is a LOT better than what I got from the RCBS die set initially. That .453" expander spud is a godsend. I have very little experience with the Lee FCD, and can't comment on its utility. LOTS of reloaders whose opinions I respect REALLY like the Lee FCDs, though.

[mike69]

Be very careful with 296 in the .454! You NEED max loads or it can fail to ignite and will stick boolits and powder in the bore. The SR primer is wrong and only solved by cutting down .460 brass so you can use a LP mag primer. If you fool with any starting loads in the .454, carry a brass rod and hammer, Pay attention to EVERY shot and make sure the boolits exit.
I do things different then everyone and use harder boolits. I use Hornady dies that have a very short expander for jacketed and I let my boolit do the final expanding. I will never give up tension for ease of seating--NO "M" or over size expanders here.
My .45 Vaquero has done this at 50 yards when I could see and has done 1" at 75 yards. 163861

the load I use in the 454 with the 296 the case is filled to the bottom of the boolet. When go to shoot it to find the best accuracy with it a may start 1 to 1.5 gr bellow but no lower read to much about not having the case capacity to low with them. I wouldn't mined try the 460 brass its kust cost so much and only have 100 of them now for my encore with a 15 inch 460 barrel.

[mike69]

I don't remember the boolit I used but only had 2, the Lyman 320 and the LBT 335 gr. 21.5 gr of 296 with a Fed 150 primer. At 75 one was 1" right of the bull and the other 1" left, same size group.
I dropped a deer with a neck shot, off hand at 100-110 yards with it. I do have lighter boolits used with 7 gr of Unique for cans and they shoot very good but I never try to reach deer levels with the fast powders. You NEED energy. You NEED accuracy first of all when hunting.
The old saw of "PLACEMENT" goes away with a handgun waving around. A deer is VERY small at 100+ and as you get older it gets worse. It gets tough at 20 yards.
Make use of all you can learn when young and test everything. It will be harder at old age.

Shot a deer about 90 yrds away with the 454 last season and the do get small out there even with my scope on it. I practice with the 454 at 100 yards on 4 and 6 inch steel targets. got into the hand gun hunting a few years ago with the encore then the 454 this past year dint use my rifle at all this year only been casting maybe year and half to two years started with a cap and ball and figured I could for all my hand guns now I am addicted I have learned a lot from all of you been reading on here since I started casting wish I started doing this a lot sooner been reloading rifles for at least 20 years for deer hunting

[mike69]

It is a LOT better than what I got from the RCBS die set initially. That .453" expander spud is a godsend. I have very little experience with the Lee FCD, and can't comment on its utility. LOTS of reloaders whose opinions I respect REALLY like the Lee FCDs, though.

Yea I like the fcd never had any issues with mine all my dies are lee except some rcbs for rifles

[44man]

Back in the day, I used ONLY RCBS and still use a lot of their stuff except dies now.
IHMSA taught me things I never considered and is when I discovered case tension had to be even.
Of course I was using the SBH in .44. RCBS was not working so I had special BR dies made with sizing collars and things turned around but they are a pain to use. They need no expander and work though. Testing dies led me to Hornady and I will never go back to anything else. No, I can't use soft boolits. They will surely get sized when seated.
A gun writer was having trouble with his .45 Colts and RCBS modified the dies by making the expander SMALLER. But as far as I know, it was only the .45 dies.
Even tension was paramount with bullets so I did the same work with cast and that meant a tough boolit.
I started to shoot 40's at IHMSA shoots and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80 and the last ram miss was my fault. To hit 20 straight turkeys was amazing for a revolver back then. Open sights, production, International class. I was getting 200 meter groups as good as unlimited guns. But I had EYES too.
At the time I also did extensive testing with powders and primers to find the mag primer is wrong in the .44 and so is any 4227. 4227 gave me good groups until the gun warmed up, then velocity increased with every shot. That made POI lower with each until I would be 16 clicks over normal at 200 and still hit 50 meters short. 296 solved all that. I found case size determines the primer and only go to the Fed 155 when I reach the .454 with .460 brass and the .475 and up. Works best in the .500 S&W too, no need for a LR. I also use the 155 in the 45-70. It works in my 30-30 Marlin with 3031, 4895 and Varget. I have taken the 155 to over 55,000# in the .454 without a flat one.
This is what a friends Freedom was getting with factory or his jacketed loads at 50 yards on the left and my PB cast on the right, loaded to over max.163914

[Tar Heel]

I have been shooting revolvers a very long time and have seen the type of leading you describe on quite a few occasions. I have never lapped a barrel nor worried about a constriction to get rid of the leading. Based on my experience here are the reasons, in no particular order. It can be a combination of reasons.

1. Hard bevel base bullets with crappy wax lube. Softer bullets and softer lube will take care of this.
2. A rough forcing cone. Lapping the forcing cone with a brass lap and 600 grit compound will cure this.
3. If the tool marks in the forcing cone are to great to be lapped out, the cone will have to be recut. Care should be taken that there is a smooth transition to the rifling with no sharp edges to scrap the lead.

Both DougGuy and Char-Gar are spot on. My two Rugers would not shoot worth a darn with cast bullets. Look....it's simple. Most folks shoot factory jacketed stuff and the guns are set up for that. If you want to shoot cast bullets, send the gun to DougGuy for an evaluation but at the very LEAST, get the forcing cone cleaned up by him.

Then....play with your alloy. If you are shooting factory cast bullets, they are unreasonably hard and use concrete for bullet lube. I use an alloy of about 11 BHN or a tad softer with both the 250gr RCBS KTSWC and the 250gr Lyman 454190. I use White's 50/50 lube on standard pressure 45 Colt loads. After DougGuy cleaned up the forcing cones and matched the throats, the guns shoot extremely well now.

Clean up the forcing cone, verify the throats are good or at least get the dimensions the same, cast your own known alloy bullets at or .005 greater than your known throat diameter, use proper bullet lube, and then enjoy the results with cast bullets.

I haven't put any factory jacketed through mine - ever. I wonder if it would even shoot well. My throats are .4525 and factory stuff shoots .451 bullets.

Hope this all works out for you.

Ruger forcing cone after DougGuy cleaned it up.
163923

Same forcing cone from Ruger factory.
163924

[mike69]

I am slowly getting the hand gun stuff figured out its defiantly different then the rifles. the more I shoot with them its getting easier to get a decent group heck I may have found some loads that would shoot great and I just couldn't shoot them that's why I am going to work up some more for the 454 now that im getting better shooting it. The best groups iv shoot with a hand gun is with my encore and that was about a 1 to 1.25 group at 100 yard with a 15 inch 30-06 barrel from the bench and scoped. Would like to get there with the other hand guns some day too. Just wish I got earlier start with the handguns. First time I took the encore hunting had three deer walking real slow around less than 40 yrds away and could not keep any of the in the scope after they got out of sit I sat there laughing thinking with my rifle I could of shot them all. Since then the rifle very seldom get shot and ive got 5 deer with my handguns would like to get my 45 shooting good and use I t this deer season too. I would like to know half of what some of you guys have forgot about this hobby .

[44man]

Doug does great work but a Taylor throat is not in my cards. Boolit is at a very high velocity when hitting the rifling. True I don't care about jump but I will not extend it that much.

[mike69]

163963163963here's what it looks like to me the rifling don't look right the way it starts out narrow if you can see it what do you think.

[DougGuy]

That looks pretty rounded on the leade in not tapered at all, and the leading edge of the lands SHOULD be square and rather sharp at the beginning of the rifling. Those are far from it.

Forcing cone recut will not reach that far into the bore without totally cutting the fire ring too thin and by the looks of it, I'm not of the opinion that someone hasn't already been there before with lapping boolits or some type of abrasive. Is that a new gun or used?

Edit: I went and read the OP, there is too much metal already removed to clean it up with a forcing cone cutter. It WOULD take a Taylor Throat reamer and that's what it would take to cure this one unless you send it back and get another barrel put on it.

From seeing this forcing cone and the lands there, unless you decide to Taylor Throat that barrel, it LOOKS like there is already too much metal removed to recut the forcing cone. The fire ring, which is the squared off 90° portion at the end of the barrel, looks like it is cut fairly thin already. Maybe it's just the way the camera picks up the different colors and shadows but it looks already cut thin. You can recut the forcing cone but you DO NOT want to cut into the fire ring! You should STOP when you get to the edge of the factory chamfer at the end of the barrel. There is a small chamfer on the outer edge of the beginning of the forcing cone cut. This chamfer MUST NOT be enlarged past the edge of it.

My opinion on this one would be to send it back to Ruger and let them stick another barrel in it IF they would. They may elect to rebarrel it, they may shoot it with their factory equivalent .45 Colt loads and if it groups they may send it back. I would write them a nice letter, short, address the specific issue with the forcing cone, LEAVE OUT any discussion of cylinder throats and stick to the one subject and ask them to consider putting a new barrel in there, tell they you shoot FACTORY lead cowboy loads, don't mention anything about reloads, and just hope they take pity on it and rebarrel it.

I don't think that I could make this:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg.html)

From the barrel as pictured, if I had it in my hands.

I can Taylor throat ream it, which would fix the forcing cone and the leade ins, oh it looks awesome and shoots REALLY WELL to boot, but IF the fire ring has already been narrowed? That would be a dealbreaker for me. I would send it back to Ruger and at least give their Customer Service a shot at it. If they send back a new barrel that has a choke in it, then there is something to work with. If they send back a new barrel and there is no perceivable choke? Problem solved, re do the cylinder throats and you are good to go. Recut the forcing cone IF it looks rough or too small or uneven. The least you tell them, the least you are in anger, the better your results will be with them. They LOVE it when customers tell them that they are the BEST in the industry so tell them that if you send it in.

For the record here is my Taylor Throated Vaquero, this one was severely choked from Ruger torquing the barrel to bring the POI to the sights. It was shooting 10" left when it was new and they cranked on it HARD to move point of impact that far at 25yds... They got it shooting to the front sight, I will give them that much but man oh man did they ever squeeze the daylights out of the barrel! It slugged .448"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat1%20Custom_zpsovrgma93.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat1%20Custom_zpsovrgma93.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat2%20Custom_zpskqwyaa9l.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat2%20Custom_zpskqwyaa9l.jpg.html)

[mike69]

dougguy the rifling looked like that before I lapped it it just smoothed out some after. would some different pics from another angle help. Ill try to get in touch with ruger do you think it matters the gun was bought as a used gun ther was not a mark anywhere on it that looked like it was ever shot was listed as new in box at cabelas gun library where I bought it. when I got my super redhawk ruger sent me new scope rings for it as one had a bad screw in it but I bought it new.

[mike69]

163965163966Here is a couple from another angle having hard time doing this pic posting first time try it today

[DougGuy]

Ok the fire ring is not narrowed like the other pics showed. That barrel is just weird if it came that way new. I would definitely call them.

[mike69]

Ok thanks Ill try to get with ruger and see what they see depending on what happens with them could You fix this for me if I cant get a new barrel threw them

[DougGuy]

Of course. Would be a perfect candidate for Taylor Throating.

[44man]

That looks pretty rounded on the leade in not tapered at all, and the leading edge of the lands SHOULD be square and rather sharp at the beginning of the rifling. Those are far from it.

Forcing cone recut will not reach that far into the bore without totally cutting the fire ring too thin and by the looks of it, I'm not of the opinion that someone hasn't already been there before with lapping boolits or some type of abrasive. Is that a new gun or used?

Edit: I went and read the OP, there is too much metal already removed to clean it up with a forcing cone cutter. It WOULD take a Taylor Throat reamer and that's what it would take to cure this one unless you send it back and get another barrel put on it.

From seeing this forcing cone and the lands there, unless you decide to Taylor Throat that barrel, it LOOKS like there is already too much metal removed to recut the forcing cone. The fire ring, which is the squared off 90° portion at the end of the barrel, looks like it is cut fairly thin already. Maybe it's just the way the camera picks up the different colors and shadows but it looks already cut thin. You can recut the forcing cone but you DO NOT want to cut into the fire ring! You should STOP when you get to the edge of the factory chamfer at the end of the barrel. There is a small chamfer on the outer edge of the beginning of the forcing cone cut. This chamfer MUST NOT be enlarged past the edge of it.

My opinion on this one would be to send it back to Ruger and let them stick another barrel in it IF they would. They may elect to rebarrel it, they may shoot it with their factory equivalent .45 Colt loads and if it groups they may send it back. I would write them a nice letter, short, address the specific issue with the forcing cone, LEAVE OUT any discussion of cylinder throats and stick to the one subject and ask them to consider putting a new barrel in there, tell they you shoot FACTORY lead cowboy loads, don't mention anything about reloads, and just hope they take pity on it and rebarrel it.

I don't think that I could make this:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/44%20Magnum/DSC01739_zps53352b7c.jpg.html)

From the barrel as pictured, if I had it in my hands.

I can Taylor throat ream it, which would fix the forcing cone and the leade ins, oh it looks awesome and shoots REALLY WELL to boot, but IF the fire ring has already been narrowed? That would be a dealbreaker for me. I would send it back to Ruger and at least give their Customer Service a shot at it. If they send back a new barrel that has a choke in it, then there is something to work with. If they send back a new barrel and there is no perceivable choke? Problem solved, re do the cylinder throats and you are good to go. Recut the forcing cone IF it looks rough or too small or uneven. The least you tell them, the least you are in anger, the better your results will be with them. They LOVE it when customers tell them that they are the BEST in the industry so tell them that if you send it in.

For the record here is my Taylor Throated Vaquero, this one was severely choked from Ruger torquing the barrel to bring the POI to the sights. It was shooting 10" left when it was new and they cranked on it HARD to move point of impact that far at 25yds... They got it shooting to the front sight, I will give them that much but man oh man did they ever squeeze the daylights out of the barrel! It slugged .448"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat1%20Custom_zpsovrgma93.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat1%20Custom_zpsovrgma93.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat2%20Custom_zpskqwyaa9l.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/TaylorThroat2%20Custom_zpskqwyaa9l.jpg.html)
WOWZER! Doug is right, need the go-no go gauges to cut cones. Some guns from the factory will not even accept an 11° cut.
I could live with a Taylor throat if needed. Slow powder though.
Doug knows when to say "NO." A tribute to him.

[dubber123]

That is the most bizarre leade in to the bore I have ever seen. I only have one idea as to what would do it, is it possible someone bought it new, shot it enough to lead up the first part of the bore and tried cleaning it with a wire brush on a drill? Don't laugh, we have a local yokel who claims to have "shot out" several muzzle loaders shooting patched round balls. Guess how he cleans his guns? Good luck, I hope Ruger or Doug can fix you up.

[mike69]

That is the most bizarre leade in to the bore I have ever seen. I only have one idea as to what would do it, is it possible someone bought it new, shot it enough to lead up the first part of the bore and tried cleaning it with a wire brush on a drill? Don't laugh, we have a local yokel who claims to have "shot out" several muzzle loaders shooting patched round balls. Guess how he cleans his guns? Good luck, I hope Ruger or Doug can fix you up.
It looked like it never was shot no ring on cylinder but who knows when buying used it was the best one I could find as far as appearance it looked brand new but now I have this to deal with Doug said he could fix it if I go that way with it.

WOWZER! Doug is right, need the go-no go gauges to cut cones. Some guns from the factory will not even accept an 11° cut.
I could live with a Taylor throat if needed. Slow powder though.
Doug knows when to say "NO." A tribute to him.

Going to go with the slower powders but would still like to make some loads up with the unique that the wife can shoot she is very recoil sensitive ive got some for the 357 that she will shoot she don't even like shooting my 1911.got any suggestions for the unique and 270gr bullet ?

[44man]

I never found a huge difference in Unique loads by working charges. In the .44 and .45 I just use 7 gr for cans and they do very well.

[mike69]

I never found a huge difference in Unique loads by working charges. In the .44 and .45 I just use 7 gr for cans and they do very well.

Ok thanks was just wondering have a few pounds of the unique just want to use it for somthing

[mike69]

Guns going to ruger there paying the shipping so Ill see what they say if I don't get a new barrel it will go to Doug to get fixed

[44man]

I hope you don't have a good trigger, those suckers will send a lawyer proof one back. But I have had good service from them. I dare not send my guns to them since I figured out how to get 1-1/2# triggers safely. They will ruin it. I have one SA down to 19 OZ.
Doug will fix your gun but I don't think even he can't beat my triggers and no one else has either. I make my own transfer bars that work.

[mike69]

I hope you don't have a good trigger, those suckers will send a lawyer proof one back. But I have had good service from them. I dare not send my guns to them since I figured out how to get 1-1/2# triggers safely. They will ruin it. I have one SA down to 19 OZ.
Doug will fix your gun but I don't think even he can't beat my triggers and no one else has either. I make my own transfer bars that work.
In your opinion if it was yours would just have Doug fix it or see what ruger will do first I don't realy want to deal with another barrel restriction. I just want it right gun hasn't been sent yet you guys have a lot more experience as this than I do. And as far as I know the trigger is factory but don't feel to bad to me .

[dubber123]

If Doug believes Taylor throating would fix it, I would send it to him. I have never had a gun Taylor throated, but trust Dougs opinion. The reason I would not send it to Ruger, is I have had them come back worse than when they went in. True they usually do a great job, but not always. My luck they would rebarrel it for free, but it would come back with a constriction, and have the front sight canted way off to the side.

[C. Latch]

The reason I would not send it to Ruger, is I have had them come back worse than when they went in. True they usually do a great job, but not always. My luck they would rebarrel it for free, but it would come back with a constriction, and have the front sight canted way off to the side.


^^^^^exactly^^^^^

Several weeks ago I noticed a screw sticking out of one of my tires. I drove to a service station that explained to me that they always fixed flats for customers, for free.

When they fixed the tire, they removed one wheelweight (I think they did it absent-mindedly, not on purpose) and when I asked them if they were going to re-balance the tire before putting it back on my truck, they explained that they were careful to never remove weights while fixing flats. They were doing me a favor, so I didn't have the heart to mention that I'd watched them remove a weight (being a caster, I notice loose wheelweights). Now my truck wobbles.

That's how I see Ruger service. I'd rather pay for a known quality service than gamble on what 'free' stuff I might get under warranty from the people who did it wrong the first time.

[44man]

In your opinion if it was yours would just have Doug fix it or see what ruger will do first I don't realy want to deal with another barrel restriction. I just want it right gun hasn't been sent yet you guys have a lot more experience as this than I do. And as far as I know the trigger is factory but don't feel to bad to me .
I do my own gunsmith work but Doug can fix. I just don't know about a Taylor throat.Way too many opinions.

[mike69]

Ok think ill just have Doug do it when I was talking to Ruger they did say if it was shooting ok they probably wouldn't do any thing and that shooting lead I was going to get lead in it so after some thinking sound like my best bet would be Doug.

[44man]

Ok think ill just have Doug do it when I was talking to Ruger they did say if it was shooting ok they probably wouldn't do any thing and that shooting lead I was going to get lead in it so after some thinking sound like my best bet would be Doug.
Ruger does not know what we here or I have done with their guns. Plus no gun maker really likes handloads although Ruger and many others ignore it. Bad thing is if you send a super trigger, they will change it yet you can be the third owner and if something is wrong they will fix it. What they determine is wrong is based on what they shoot. Not what you use.
Now Doug is tuned to us and knows the problems we face, who would I trust?

[44man]

My thoughts on the Taylor throat is that it gets rid of choke but the boolit is running faster before the rifling to take twist. It can work but alloy and powder is more important.
I don't worry about boolit jump but that throat can DOUBLE it. For me it is up in the air.

[DougGuy]

Order you a 30oz. trigger return spring from Brownell's, these are the only internal changes I ever make to my Rugers. I leave the stock sear/hammer engagement and using it over time will smooth the parts to each other enough to get used to.

What the lighter spring does for me, is it allows me to dry fire the gun and hold the sights motionless as the hammer drops. A single action revolver has a long "lock time" and the hammer is heavy, just the movement of the hammer is enough to upset the sights with most shooters until they master the hammer drop. Once I achieve this in dry fire practice, I just commit to memory my grip and trigger pull and it translates to tighter groups upon live fire.

You can try this at home, with an UNLOADED gun, set a target or pick a point to aim and dry fire the gun using your normal firing stance and grip. Take a mental "snapshot" of the sight alignment at the moment the hammer falls. What did the front sight do? Did it dip low and left? This is a characteristic of the finger jerking the trigger in overtravel once the sear escapes the hammer hook. For this you can pull a little bit right with your finger and bring the front sight back on center, you can "train" your hands and trigger finger to shoot the gun without disturbing the sights. The Wolff 30oz. spring makes this MUCH easier and quicker.
_________________________________________

That said, the only 3 things that you need to bring a Ruger single action to be about as accurate as it possibly can be without sending it to a 'smith for a total makeover, are 1.) Cylinder throats sized .0005" over your chosen boolit diameter, AND sized within .0002" of each other. 2.) Recut and clean up forcing cone to 11° for .44 and .45 calibers, 5° for .38/.357. 3.) Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring. This will get you 95% of what a custom makeover will get, at the cheapest price point. After these three things, everything else goes up dramatically pricewise, for a diminishing amount of improvement.

This is provided there is no thread choke. If a revolver has a detectable constriction, changes to the cylinder throats and trigger return spring can still improve it just not as much as if the barrel was not choked.

[Lefty Red]

The 4227 has been pretty good in my 454 and 357 going to try 296 in the 454 shot some but just at steel haven't really checked group size with a target yet ill try it in the 45 when I get it figured out going to lap it some more and try the 4227 this weekend have to make up some more lapping rounds

I use 4227 in 44 and 357 and 45. I like the consistent velocities in cold weather with it over 296. 296 is spastic in cold weather. I leave it for bench work during nice weather.

[mike69]

175322 its been a little while but id like to thank everybody for your advice I got the 45 shooting good with no leading probably got close to 300 rounds threw it and its still clean the target is 25 yards with 19.5 gr 296 and 280 gr bullet now id like to put a red dot on for deer season

[9.3X62AL]

OK, THAT kind of shooting will make venison right well.