Many ask Questions on power to kill

[Geezer in NH]

Many ask Questions on power to kill what ever animal they hunt.

Seems to me many want to infirm that power is the answer.

Bigger caliber, faster speed, all seem to make up for less than adequate accuracy and these wanting either an edge or an excuse.

Several posts lately from reading many assume foot pounds mean every thing. Many have been posted on another forum for cast that is the answer.

Sorry but I do not agree. Want to hunt and kill your game spend time to become efficient. Power is a crutch. I am not being nice. You owe it to your game to be able to be efficient power be dnd@@

I have hunted the last 20+ years with a flintlock rifle, sometimes 54 sometimes 40 cal both kill what I shoot.

Now I am older and handicapped and unable to effectively use my flintlocks.

Do not tell me my 30-30 loads of an elongated bullet are not enough to kill a deer/bear or moose. Sorry you are wrong all the way.

Aim and hit a vital area is the way to go.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Your opinion gets quite a high degree of support. But velocity isn't solely about power. It produces a flat trajectory, and simplifies the task of placing that bullet where it is wanted to go.

[Geezer in NH]

Easy do not shoot at distances you cannot figure out or have known where you hit. In NH my shot's in the last 40+ years is at most 75 yards.

Yes I have hunted when shots are over 200 but I deeply refuse to shoot at anything but targets past 350 yards it is not fair to the game.

Most game shots at 400+ are not ethical IMHO

By the way when I want to shoot super long range Cast boolits are not in the reliable area for hunting

[runfiverun]

that brings us to using the right tool for the job.
I tote along several lever guns stoked with appropriate cast boolits throughout the season and feel really comfortable taking shots out to 150 yds or so with most of them.
it really sucked the year I had to watch that nice 4X5 walk slowly down a ridge and turn into some pine trees while I sat there helpless with my 30-30.
had he been about 50 yds closer...
or if I had had one of my hi-power rifles with me, he would be hanging on my wall right next to the other 160+ class buck.
last year it was nice having the 25-06 with me.
the deer the oldest girl got was right at 330 yds.
the one littlegirl took with it was at pistol distance. [bout 15 yds] my rifle just happened to be near her when it come past us.
the one I got later was uphill in some trees and I had to thread the shot through a 9"x9" hole and 'around' a tree trunk at about 175 yds.
I needed a flat shooting accurate rifle for 2 of the three shots, and a pistol [or an open sighted lever gun] really would have been more effective on the one trotting past littlegirl.
but since I can't carry them all nor predict my shot distances I try to cover as many of my bases as I can.
the scope on our rifles is just as likely to be on 2.5-3 as on 10,12, or even 16 on any given day.

[MT Gianni]

Much of today's' education is relaying formulas. People are taught that formulas work and following a formula will produce similar results. Animals have never been to school and don't know that. Use what works for you. No one wants to loose an animal and I would rather err on the side of lost meat than lost animals.

[tdoyka]

i have been hunting for 30+ years now and i've been reloading my own for 20+ years. this is my second year since i have used cast boolits. my range dropped considerably to 150 yards using cast. my own longest shot was from a 270 using a 130gr ballistic tip at a doe that was 365+ yards away.
i have a handicap(stroke gots me:holysheep, the right arm/leg of my body don't work:-P) too. last year i was fortune enough to shoot a doe at 93 yards(laser range finder). i used a 1898 springfield in 30-40 krag with a 165gr ranch dog(12bhn) and a load of h4198. from the muzzle, i think its going 1800fps. doe gave up the ghost as soon as i fired, drt. i broke the onside shoulder, both lungs, heart and an offside rib before it continued on to parts unknown.

i also used my tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel in 444 with a 275gr ranch dog over another load of rel7. it goes from the muzzle about 2000fps. i had to let my dad shoot a small 6pt because it was over my self imposed limit of 150 yards. he shot it at 187 yards(laser range finder) with his 7-08 using a 139gr hornady fn.

i don't think about power anymore, its all where you put the boolit(heart and lungs). the krag i know i could have taken it up to 2100-2200fps but i felt confident at 1800fps. the 444 is going down to about 1800fps too.

[leftiye]

Y'all may be talking apples and oranges. Power is good. Having enough is necessary (though it seems to require way less than we are told). So is aiming where it counts. And better still hitting where you thought you aimed. It ain't one or the other.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

that brings us to using the right tool for the job.
I tote along several lever guns stoked with appropriate cast boolits throughout the season and feel really comfortable taking shots out to 150 yds or so with most of them.
it really sucked the year I had to watch that nice 4X5 walk slowly down a ridge and turn into some pine trees while I sat there helpless with my 30-30.
had he been about 50 yds closer...
or if I had had one of my hi-power rifles with me, he would be hanging on my wall right next to the other 160+ class buck.
last year it was nice having the 25-06 with me.
the deer the oldest girl got was right at 330 yds.
the one littlegirl took with it was at pistol distance. [bout 15 yds] my rifle just happened to be near her when it come past us.
the one I got later was uphill in some trees and I had to thread the shot through a 9"x9" hole and 'around' a tree trunk at about 175 yds.
I needed a flat shooting accurate rifle for 2 of the three shots, and a pistol [or an open sighted lever gun] really would have been more effective on the one trotting past littlegirl.
but since I can't carry them all nor predict my shot distances I try to cover as many of my bases as I can.
the scope on our rifles is just as likely to be on 2.5-3 as on 10,12, or even 16 on any given day.

You have given a fine description of how the need for velocity is all down to circumstances, and plenty of people, whose shooting is on open fields, simply face circumstances where reliance on a close-range rifle is almost sure to spoil their day. Of course we do see plenty of cases online where the use of a large caliber is pure posturing. Personally I think having to find the scope picture again after a shot is a big disadvantage, and I don't think there is a better deer cartridge in existence than the .243, or in my case 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. But if I was limited to very open country I would certainly go to something with higher velocity, and I can't see that anybody loses much by going for the extra security of bigger bullets... up to a point. Criticising someone's choice in those circumstances is just about control.

You make a good point about shooting through a "window" in foliage, when a high trajectory is more likely to pass through something solid. Your 15 yard example reminds us of something else worth of consideration, although few appreciate it. It is a bad thing to switch between rifles which are operated in different ways. I suppose I have fired more shots with the Brno .22 I bought in 1970 for £30.50 than I have with everything else put together. But one of these days I am going to make a safety that doesn't operate in the opposite direction from all the others.

[dk17hmr]

I'll take velocity and bullet weight with reasonable accuracy over pin point accuracy and low velocity. If that's a crutch I guess I don't know how I kill any animals. Certainly not in the numbers I do every year.

My accuracy demands are probably alot higher than most though.

[tdoyka]

when i first started reloading, it was how can i get the most foot-pounds out of a certain caliber. i would look at a manual, find which powder was the fastest fps and go from there. i'd stay inside of the recommended load, until i started if it can do x, why can't it do y, if it does y it can do z..... i would load the powder over what was considered the max, then i would load it up a couple of grains and then shoot it.(i was young and dumb and it wouldn't happen to me:-() i would shoot a load until the brass split and then it was considered a "good load." the brass was split, primers where either flattened or cratered, sticky extraction and ejector marks on the round.

i thank God that i never hurt/died when i was shooting these loads. it probably don't hurt the makers of remington m700 either.

then i decided i would stay within the recommended loads while trying to find the most accurate load. i became obsessed with accuracy. there were only two guns that had to be sold, because they wouldn't do sub minute accuracy. they both could shoot a deer(1-1 1/2" groups) but they could not do the sub minute thing. i did this for the better part of 20 years.

and then there was cast boolits.....everything was thrown out- sub-minute accuracy, ft/lbs, velocity, boolit shapes... everything. i'm starting on year 2 and i have everything to learn...i have learned that a 30-40 krag, open sights with a 165gr ranch dog(12 bhn/clip on ww) going 1800fps from the muzzle will make a deer at 93 yards, go drt!!!

[w5pv]

I have made some pretty impressive shots with and 742 jamamatic that I used until it was stolen from me.My favorite was a was 180 grain over 42 grains 4231 and gas checked.It clipped along about 1850 fps and did a excellent job putting white tail deer down.Now I use a 45C out to a hundred yards or so at the most it also does a fine job.I never was much on horn soup but do like the venison and try to save as much of the meat as possible and when you go hyper velocity it is just too much meat that is ruined.I have used at one time or the other light bullets and burned a lot of powder and bloodshot a lot of meat in doing so.Chunk a big ole slow hunk of lead and get more eatable meat without the blood shot and jellied meat.

[theleo]

As long as I poke a big enough hole in the vitals that the animal bleeds out relatively short amount of time, I have enough power. My got to rifle is a 280 ai loaded with 140 grain Accubonds and has done just fine out to the 400 yard mark on elk. I've witnessed guys unable to deal with the price of more powerful cartridges miss animals at 150yards. If the stars and bank account ever align I'll likely buy an 1885 in some sort of 40 caliber and start hunting with it for the rare occasion that I draw a rifle tag even though by doing the math it will be weaker than my beloved 280 ai.

[toallmy]

Sorry gentlemen I'm not much of a tracker if they hit the thicket good chance ill not be able to track them I don't chance it . So I try to blow the front shoulder out the other side . I lose meat but not the critters . So If you are comfortable with it use it that's what I do .

[rosst]

A friend of mine is going to go from a .308 to 300WSM, seems folly to me but he wants to . . put it down to advertising working or curiosity.

As i get older i have dropped the power levels i thought i needed . . concentrating on accuracy at the animal, steadily moving the range out further as i proved at the range that it was possible . . . my 30/30 Marlin is a good example.
By adding a turret to a low powered scope, using a rangefinder, smart phone ballistic app i could dial up extending my range to double what i originally thought possible. . . and gained a whole lot of shooting time proving it.

i put his dial on a 6X Leupold with german style reticle
163640
a 197grn. RCBS boolit thru the pump will drop animals in short order, not blowing it off its feet like a magnum but good enough.

my 2c

[aspangler]

It all comes down to this. " Ethics is doing the right thing when noone is around even when doing the wrong thing is legal." ( Aldo Leopold ) Kill cleanly and quickly and pass on shots that are questionable. Shot placement is the key.

[TXGunNut]

For me it's more about the situation, boolit placement and boolit design. I hunted with j-words for thirty years before "discovering" boolits. I never looked back. At the ranges I take game the lead boolit simply does not need the velocity a j-word seems to need to cleanly and decisively take TX game. I'm not a long-range hunter or shooter but anything inside of 150 yds is well within my comfort zone even tho my longest shot so far is 100 yds, most much shorter. I'm willing to sit back, watch & wait until I get the shot I want. Besides, when the smoke clears the work starts. ;-)

[leeggen]

We had a guy that we allowed to hunt on our property he used a 270 on the deer normally. When he started to hunt here he used it once then went to his 300 mag. I ask him why and his answer was "I do head shots and if I don't get a good hit I will still get my deer". Well in a couple days the woods rattled and after a couple hours he came to his car without his deer. 5 days later I found his deer, the whole lower jaw was blown away. I called him and had him meet me and see if it was the buck he shot and sure enough he said it was, he was no longer allowed to hunt here. My thought is if he does head shots and needs a 300 mag to do it then he needs to hunt else where.
I can do deer head shots with 22LR and not loose deer, do I do no not anymore, younger and dumber is all I can say. This was a guy that some where got the idea larger was better sense he didn't seem to have confidence in his abillity, sense then I have heard that from many hunters here in Tn.
CD

[geezer56]

There are no varying degrees of dead. If it kills the animal cleanly and efficiently at the ranges you are comfortable with, it is a good load. That being said, I have several big boomers that I love to shoot. The 416 Rigby, 375 H&H, 375 Black Mesa Express, and 375 JDJ are all in my safe. Cast boolits at reasonable velocities let me shoot economically and without getting beat up too bad. I doubt that any animal on this side of the ocean could tell the difference between my loads and powerhouse loads. The cast loads at reasonable speeds seem to kill more cleanly than factory type loads with J-word bullets in them. My hunting areas aren't made for long shots though. The longest shot available will be 125-150 yds.

[Suo Gan]

If you ever aimed true and watched your trophy run off to the nether regions...you'd wished you had used a 30-06.

Been there and done that too many times. But still, I go to the woods with a 30-30 and absolutely know that I must place my shot perfectly.

if this isn't something you consider there are some possibilities. You might not have such limited time in the woods as I do, and passing up shots is acceptable. Also, you might not have ever lost game and think you are a regular nimrod with a hunting fusil. Perhaps the suffering of game isn't something you concern yourself with. Could be too you are wet behind the ears. There was a time when I'd never lost a deer. Attributed that to me being "super hunter". What hell there was to pay for being so cocksure.

But it actually turned out to be a good thing. Nothing worse than a man who thinks he can do it all.

The idea is that a knowledgeable hunter can do more with less. To that end I would agree. Back in the bad old days when I was poor and only had one rifle I had to use what I had to use. But now, this isn't the case. Obviously deer are killed by the train car loads every year with 30-30s. I've met folks that think they are near over powered for deer size game.


Take it from a fellow who used to be much smarter. You will lose game with a 30-30. Even with a perfectly placed shot. be prepared. After having had unfortunately lost several head of game through the years, I can say it usually boiled down to operator error. But several times I've done my part and the equipment wasn't up to the task.

All the true trophies I've lost were due to me choosing to use inferior equipment. A cheap scope cost me the biggest buck I've ever seen. don't even get me started on open sights. I guess scopes are for sissies.

But you know what? You gotta do this life just as YOU see fit. Don't let me tell you how to do 'er. But a word of wisdom. A 30-06 is a helluva deer thumper and all around better arm that any 30-30 ever was. All nostalgia aside. This is a fact I've learned the hard way.

[M-Tecs]

You will lose game with a 30-30. Even with a perfectly placed shot. be prepared.

That has not been my experience with the 20 or so deer I have killed with a 30/30.

One was the heaviest deer I have killed. Field dressed it weighed 248 pounds on a certified scale.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

We had a guy that we allowed to hunt on our property he used a 270 on the deer normally. When he started to hunt here he used it once then went to his 300 mag. I ask him why and his answer was "I do head shots and if I don't get a good hit I will still get my deer". Well in a couple days the woods rattled and after a couple hours he came to his car without his deer. 5 days later I found his deer, the whole lower jaw was blown away. I called him and had him meet me and see if it was the buck he shot and sure enough he said it was, he was no longer allowed to hunt here. My thought is if he does head shots and needs a 300 mag to do it then he needs to hunt else where.
I can do deer head shots with 22LR and not loose deer, do I do no not anymore, younger and dumber is all I can say. This was a guy that some where got the idea larger was better sense he didn't seem to have confidence in his abillity, sense then I have heard that from many hunters here in Tn.
CD

That is a dreadful story, although the poor beast's jaw would probably have been bout 90% as much blown off if he had used the .270. O course a person sometimes gets a shot at a deer's head alone, but it is almost certain to include the neck as well, and the neck shot is a surer one.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As to losing deer with well-placed shots with a .30-30, it depends what you mean by "lose". There is a slightly greater chance - not much greater - that the deer, though it dies, will run far enough not to be found in the undergrowth, if you don't have a dog. But a well placed .30-30 shot will kill the deer.

[Suo Gan]

That has not been my experience with the 20 or so deer I have killed with a 30/30.

One was the heaviest deer I have killed. Field dressed it weighed 248 pounds on a certified scale.


Maybe be you will be the one who will go a lifetime without losing game. Who knows. Lots of deer taken with far lighter cartridges as well. Some deer don't have the willingness to die as others and you never know when that is going to happen. A deer can cover a lot of territory in a couple of minutes...

[mozeppa]

a boy named David killed a very large animal named goliath with a simple stone of unknown caliber
traveling only a couple hundred feet per second.

its all about aim.

but i'm no David....so i shoot a guillotine ....cuts there heads right off!....not lost one yet!

[Indiana shooter]

As far as the ol' 30-30 goes it claims the only "modern rifle" that I've lost a deer with. That deer was not the guns fault but mine I was 11 years old and gut shot that deer. I also watched my first buck run off over 200 yards after placing a 170 gr slug through his lead shoulder and through his heart at around 40 yards. On the other side I watched many of deer drop right there at the break of the trigger.

To the OP KE will always fall second to shot placement. An animal with an exit hole will generally be much easier to track if it runs off. I base my bullet selection and velocity according to that (providing it has acceptable accuracy). Heck I've killed more deer using a stick with a razor blade on the tip, generating around 60 fp of KE, than I have with all my rifles combined.

[JimA]

If you ever aimed true and watched your trophy run off to the nether regions...you'd wished you had used a 30-06.
Take it from a fellow who used to be much smarter. You will lose game with a 30-30. Even with a perfectly placed shot.


Aiming true and hitting where you should are different things. Unless you recover the animal you can never be sure exactly where it was hit. A twig or branch can deflect any bullet somewhat and game sometimes moves just as we shoot.

[rodwha]

"...and the neck shot is a surer one."

I used a 270 Win for deer hunting and always shot the vitals as my dad taught me as a youngster. My deer typically ran about 25 yds.

My old boss who always ensured he could bring company to his leases would tell me his game went nowhere. He shot his deer in the neck and hogs in the ear. I began trying that (my deer were always around 70-80 yds) and would shoot the first third of the neck from the shoulder figuring if the head moved this portion didn't enough to be too concerned with. From then on I was a neck shooter!

But now I have a .50 cal muzzleloader that I'm using balls and REALs through. Without the hyper velocity I'm not sure it would work in the same manner.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, velocity does make a lot of difference with the neck shot, regardless of the arguments (valid ones) about hits in more conventional areas.

WDM Bell the elephant hunter retired to a small estate in the Highlands of Scotland, where the locals still say he contrived to shoot more deer than his own land supported. There is some pretty grim mathematics about elephant hunting. If you hunt them in a manner that gives a 1% chance of being killed, it sounds a pretty fair deal for a bold sport hunter. Try to shoot ten that way, and you have a slightly better than 90% chance of survival (better because the impossibility of being killed twice skews the figures.) But shoot 1011 as he did, more with a 7x57 than anything else, and you have a .0039% chance of being alive.

A big part of this was his study of elephant anatomy, and he brought the same approach to becoming a great believer in the .220 Swift for the neck shot (and almost no other) on deer. The argument about the Swift producing massive disruption of surrounding tissues is usually a snare and a delusion. But Bell said there is no way you can hit the neck without dropping the animal quickly, and with the head there is.

[9.3X62AL]

The gods of the hunt have blessed me, so far. I have yet to lose a deer. EVERY one of them could have been taken with a 30/30 WCF, and 3 of them were. Longest shot was at 125 yards, my first one at age 13. The next-furthest away was half that distance. Landforms/topography have a lot to do with that, as does the unwillingness to risk marginal shots. I don't NEED to take a deer, and have been fortunate enough throughout my life to have been a sport hunter rather than a subsistence harvester. It is not my place to criticize the game-taking practices of others, as long as fair-chase ethics in sporting situations are adhered to. If subsistence or survival is a variable in the equation, a lot of that Marquis of Queensbury stuff gets left.

[Digital Dan]

Your opinion gets quite a high degree of support. But velocity isn't solely about power. It produces a flat trajectory, and simplifies the task of placing that bullet where it is wanted to go.

Velocity is a chimera. Easier to figure drops (constant) than drift (variable) in any case.

[Digital Dan]

There is little gained in racing FPE in cartridge comparisons. .22 RF ammo kills, so does the .600 Nitro. Anyone want to guess which has accounted for more tons of meat? Killing things with bullets is a placement task that can be enhanced to some degree with terminal performance of the bullet. Disrupt the CNS or Cardiovascular system with a bullet and it matters not too much how fast, or how big the bullet. If you can't put the bullet where it belongs, don't take the shot. Pretty simple actually.

[Digital Dan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRaRCCZjdTM

[M-Tecs]

Cool video but far from the longest shot ever.

[LAKEMASTER]

This is the same stuff that goes on in the archery world.... Speed kills speed kills speed kills...


I couldn't help but notice that all the one generation folk who have killed more game and are better hunters then I'll ever be used whatever the heck they wanted....

I'm going to reload some fast cast rifle rounds just to try, but hitting your mark trumps how fast it blows through the pumping plant...

Do your thing!!!!!

[BwBrown]

Here's a question for you...
"What is the best golf club?"

Any knowledgeable golfer will say he/she has a club that will fit the particular situation: varieties of drivers, wedges, putters.
But I am not a golfer.

I do reload more than a dozen calibers - there is a gun in the safe for each. Part of the fun is looking ahead to the hunt and thoughtfully choosing the correct (preferred) gun and caliber.
By being careful, practiced, we have the privilege of being able to not only be armed, but to carry the firearm of our choice: on a sling, in a scabbard, or even in a holster.

My biggest learning over the years has been MY limitations, not those of my tools. I've always been amused by the casual hunter who ventures out, does not see any game - so he heads off to the gun shop to buy a better, bigger, lighter, faster or heavier gun!

Over the last 50 years, I have passed up quite a few shots, even missed a few. But to my knowledge I've never failed to recover an animal I hit with a firearm.
I have, on the other hand, lost a couple whitetails that had holes poked into them with bow and crossbow. It has become my choice to not carry sharp sticks any more. While there are plenty of accomplished archers in the woods, I am not one.

My strategy - shoot hundreds of bullets or boolits at paper for each one shot at a living creature.
Doesn't make anyone else wrong. Just what's right for me.

[Digital Dan]

Cool video but far from the longest shot ever.

No it is not. Nor is it high velocity, high energy or any other of the common metrics which make so many drool with eager anticipation. What it is mostly is an illustration of precision over a long distance.

[toallmy]

I have lost game and it is a horrible thing to do a wasted life that was my fault .more than I care to think of.

[davidheart]

If the hunting boolit/bullet could reach 20 inches of penetration and violently expand at the same time at the desired range in which you could accurately place it, do it.

I'll actually do my own "ballistics testing" by snagging the old phone books from the post office when it's time to "recycle" them. I'll then soak them in a cooler full of water and take my shot. You'd be surprised what 40 inches of soaked, compressed paper will tell you about your hunting load.... ((The damage from a cast 30-30 Ranch Dog boolit was AMAZING...))

Deer have not grown armored plating and people around here take black bear and hogs with pistols.

[GLynn41]

for what it is worth--first you must hit a vital spot-- second the medium caliber cast boolits- are enough-say 270 and up --I prefer 308 and up- normally cast are heavy for cal. in weight-- so they are good third where do you hunt and how far--more open, for me light cal. are fine- I mostly hunt bottoms- thick wet and short range 125yards or less -- my last several deer have all been under 50 yards and a 200# buck is possible- so I want pass through --I am decent at tracking -- but I do not want to-- so I have to have a gun for what ever decent shot I am given...
so my firearm must shoot to point of aim--
shoots through-- be it handgun or longgun

My cast favorite is a Weatherbye Vanguard .358 win Saeco 245 gr velocity is 2000-2100-- since range is short I file the nose a little for more meplat
I went a little long sorry :)

[leftiye]

On the issue of power alone- Firstly it is true that almost anything gunwise will kill almost anything. .22 rimfire will kill deer, people, mountain lions. Under loaded .32-20 will kill deer. But they aren't enough to be reliable. As we progress upward in caliber and power we find a whole slew of calibers (ctgs.) that will kill every time if you can shoot straight. later we come to another slew of even more powerful ctgs. What sets these in a category is that they have gobs and oodles of power and/or bore diameter. They are all way past what power is needed. What matters here is that they don't kill any faster, nor more reliaby after a certain power level is reached. These power levels do obviously vary for the given game being shot.

[leebuilder]

Hi I am with you Geezer. You seem to be speaking of experience and ethics, and I agree. Here long shots are stuff of legend our terrain is rugged. From my experience, shortest shot deer was 9 or 10 feet, longest shot 60 yards. Most were taken with 303. I putter with reduced loads in winter, no idea the velocity but I know with certainty they will be lethal upto 50 yards, they shred thick books and peirce frozen spruce 6" in diameter. Will I use them to take deer I dought it. I will stick to what I know for now. I plan to work up a deer hunting load a bit more to learn and trial. Why, because I know. I know what it is like to look for wounded deer. I know what it feels like. Never again.
Be well

[dbarry1]

Another one in agreement with you. They were hunting everything with for hundreds of years w/ charcoal burners and lead. At the club, getting a nice group at 300 yards takes some work. More exciting to wait and have your quarry in at 20-30 yards anyway.

Teach and pass on respect of the game and the love of hobby to younger generation.

[Blackwater]

There's not a post or opinion here I can really contest, even if they DO kind'a tend to go off in different directions. The simple fact is, deer and other critters can be killed via multiple methods. The factors I consider important are enough velocity and bullet wt. to enable sufficient penetration to reach the vitals. That is the base line for me. Beyond that, larger dia., higher velocity. Next, bullet shape and alloy. If any of these are off, as in too soft or too hard an alloy, too much velocity for the bullet and lube, etc., etc. the results will be affected adversely.

Back when I was casting and shooting a lot of HP's, I played with alloys and found a great deal of difference in the penetration and bullet integrity of the little Lee 150-SWCHP that came out finished at 142 gr., nominally. It was a good bullet and did good things for me. A friend shot 2 deer with some I gave him, and both were DRT, but he shot one in the brain and another was a lucky running shot at over 200 yds. with a 4" .38. The bullet luckily hit it in the neck and it tumbled end over end like a rabbit. It was already wounded and he knew if it reached the big thicket it was headed for, it would be lost, so he gave it a try and won the lottery with his shot (3rd attempt).

When I started loading for BPCR, I heard folks talk about a "balanced load." I finally realized what they were talking about with some practice and experience. And it's true there, and I think it's a pretty good way to look at our tools for the field. Cast or jacketed, there's really got to be some balance in it. In '06, .270 and 6mm, and any other caliber, you've got to know the expansion qualities of the bullet you choose. Some brands expand more or less rapidly than the rest, and those tend to give more penetration. Balance that knowledge with knowledge of what it takes to take down the game you're after and you'll be happy. Fail to and it might prove disappointing. Deer, though, are essentially easy to kill if you do your part on placement, along with using the right bullet.

44man's theory he revealed in another thread here that there's a distinct difference between arteries and vessels that are torn as opposed to being more cleanly cut by the ojive of the bullet we've chosen has me convinced there's some real validity to that as well. It's the only theory that I've come across that explains the seemingly "magical" effect (exaggerated, but noticable) of the LBT type bullets. There've been far too many reports from reliable sources of their working much better than many other designs that I've gotta' give 'em a try. It's on my agenda, if I can just get to it. Take a flexible plastic tube (representing an artery) and stretch it until it breaks, and what happens? The dia. of the tube gets smaller as it stretches, which in the case of an artery, means it'd allow less blood to leak - maybe MUCH less. Cut it cleanly, though, and it'll leak at full flow for that particular artery, vein or capillary. This seems to be a result of the pretty "sharp" corners of the LBT type ojives, and broad, flat points. They seem, I'm conjecturing, to just maximize the available "stopping power" of any given caliber. The Ranch Dog bullets should prove equally effective, I'd think, or any other bullet with broad flat nose and sharp, cutting ojive. But that's just theory so far for me, and 44man put it forth as just the only explanation he'd found for some strange things he's seen in the woods in shooting deer.

If anybody here has it all figured out, you're smarter than me, and likely more experienced as well. One thing I noted in skinning and autopsying well over 300 deer in my time is that it really doesn't take all that much to kill a deer cleanly, and a .30/30 does really well with Jbullets and full loads. Never got to skin many shot with cast, and all those were from pistols. So I've got more to do, it seems, to have what I'd consider fairly definitive insight into what all it really takes for deer. And Suo Gan, you might want to use a softer alloy in your .30/30 if you're having any trouble getting good, quick kills. I don't KNOW that, but on the basis of what I've observed, simply offer that as a possibility you might want to investigate.

Hunting is a strange thing, sometimes, and the results we get aren't always as predictable as we'd like them to be. Anyone who spends much time in the woods will see things that seem inexplicable at times. But general rules will also tend to stand out, so .... we keep trying things until we find something that really works for us. Lots depends on how we use what we've got, and whether we keep what we've got within its due bounds. Lots and lots of variables, and too little time to test them all out. That's why this board is so valuable. We can glean from the experiences of others. More data usually equals better results, and I for one am grateful for that.

[horsesoldier]

Energy is a meaning less figure. I want a bullet with a high sectional density that will penetrate in a straight line and exit. Dumping energy is meaningless. Exits make good blood trails.

[tdoyka]

i have killed alot of whitetails using j words back in my younger days. as i seem to recall, every deer was drt. when i moved up to the '06 with j words, every deer was drt. whether round nose or flat nose these bullets did work.

then came my love affair with the 7mm-08 and 7mm mauser. i was using a 139gr hornady flat point and it got 1/2 of the deer drt and the other half ran 10-30 yards before they gave up the ghost. my 270 with 130gr ballistic tips only had two or three that were drt, the rest ran 10-50 yards away. the 6.5 creedmoor, 243 and others using pointed j words did the same thing that my 270 did. all were going at about max velocity.

i have only used the cast boolit one time on a deer, but i'm forever in love with the cast gods. my 30-40 krag with the 165gr ranch dog going roughly 1800fps(25.5gr of h4198) put the smackdown on a doe(boom, thawp, drt) at 93 yards. the rd entered the shoulder, took out both lungs and the heart and then it broke a rib on the way out. i believe that the entrance wound was around the same size as the boolit(.311") and the exit wound appeared to be roughly 1". i do remember that the heart was undamaged expect the .311" hole that was drill thru it. the lungs i did bother to look at them. i should have, but i was amazed at the hole the heart had. muscle damage was minimal, even tho i shot it on the shoulder. i can and have eating right up to the hole.

i'm in love with the ranch dog design. i'm also a fan of the wide flat nose, does wonders for my 444. them wide boolits make wide holes thru the deer. and so far, they put them down drt. i don't try to do a 300+ yarder on the deer, 150 yards is enough for me.

[Digital Dan]

Any of you with a few spare moments (fast readers) or a few hours (average Joes) take a look...

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

[M-Tecs]

Any of you with a few spare moments (fast readers) or a few hours (average Joes) take a look...

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

I'm a fast reader but this one is still going to take awhile.

[tdoyka]

I'm a fast reader but this one is still going to take awhile.

x2 its going to take a little bit for me also

[Digital Dan]

Had my tongue in cheek when I wrote that....it is a lot of reading, but educational in many regards.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I personally think sub 35 cal cast bullets aren't that good at killing. Ive killed deer with 30 cal rifles with cast and to be honest gave the practice up because even with good shots we were tracking wounded deer. Yes they will kill but not with the authority of a larger caliber or a jacketed load at higher velocity. I sure wouldn't want to bet a once in a lifetime moose hunt on a 3030 even with jacketed bullets. Sure it would get it done in 80 percent of situations but id prefer something like a 300 mag or at least an 06 that put a bit more authority on my target. Anymore with cast my guns start at .35 cal. and even then I'm looking for the biggest metplat I can find.
I'll take velocity and bullet weight with reasonable accuracy over pin point accuracy and low velocity. If that's a crutch I guess I don't know how I kill any animals. Certainly not in the numbers I do every year.

My accuracy demands are probably alot higher than most though.

[jcren]

Totally bogus statement. Energy not related to dia. so 150gr@2k fps = 1172 @100 1000gr@200 fps = 65, 1000gr@50 fps = 1 @ 10 feet. What do you want to get hit by? Energy provides penetration.
SD = #/D^2. 100gr 30 cal = .1; 100gr 50 cal = .056; 200gr 50 cal = .11 - so?

A long piece of baling wire has a unbeatable sectional density....

[M-Tecs]

Between bow, rifle, muzzleloader and handgun I have killed close to 200 head of big game (since 1972 lost one deer with the bow and one deer with the rifle). I am not counting the pigs, cattle, horses and deer dispatched with a 22LR. My one and only buffalo bull was with a 375 Win. levergun. Effective killing of game boils down to one thing and one thing only. That's inducing sufficient damage to the organs or central nervous system to induce a human and quick kill. I prefer to have good penetration and energy transfer with energy transfer being the most important. Exist are nice if you need to track but not necessary. Unless you sever spine energy transfer is what damages the organs and promotes blood loss.

The three most difficult recoveries I had have been with a 270 Win, 338 Win. Mag and a 375 H&H. The issue was not shot placement but bullet selection. I was using jacketed bullets designed for much heavier game. The 270 was a mule deer buck. I double lung him three times and he still made it 3/4 of a mile. He was to sick to cross the fence or I would have lost him. Needed a fourth shot to the head. Had I been using 130 soft points or my 22-250 will 55 grain soft points he wouldn't have made it 30 yards on the first shot. Same of the 338 and 375. I shot maybe a dozen and half with the 338 using 210 Nosler partitions. I don't remember if I had to track any but a don't believe so. The two I shot with 338 bullets designed for much heavier game required significant tracking.

Never had to track any of the ones shot with the .223, 22-250 or 220 Swift. Each shot was a perfect boardside with a 55 soft point behind the shoulder double lunging. No exist but also no tracking required. The lungs just turned to mush.

[Harter66]

Because I live in a 1 by tag lottery draw state I've read every word of the law and checked lots of legality of loads .
A 223 from a 24" bbl with a Speer 55 gr BTSP loaded to the gills according to the tables will make 1024 ftlb @100 yd. Because it is 22 cal and has a 2"OAL it is legal . We all know what happens on impact and even a well made heavy jacketed will make a huge cavity and may or may not go deep enough . I've seen a number of deer killed 1 hop dead with a similar Sierra SP in a 22-250 .
Take a ported Marlin 18" Guide Gun in 45-70 and drop a 350 gr Remington factory HP in it take the advertised velocity subtract 300 fps for porting and 6" of bbl check the Speer tables and it doesn't make the cut although actual Chrony numbers might make up the needed 3 ftlb @100. Now if a guy is hunting elk ,bear and on down with a 45-70 GG there's a pretty good chance that he's not shooting factory default ammo and that he's apt to have it stuck in whatevers ear before he pulls the trigger . Because it's legal doesn't make it right . Because you can poke only and exit in an empty can every time at 200 yards doesn't mean the 950 ftlb is going to poke Bambi's eye out or pass through the vitals .

Based on 1st hand experience I can tell you that both a slow moving fat flat nose bullet and long heavy high stepping smaller caliber will make dead critters equally as well .
A 200gr .500 BC cast just hard enough to get it out the bbl at 1900 fps will leave the same or very similar 80 yd wound to a 150 gr BTSP at 2700 fps with a .321 BC .
A 262 gr 452-252 at 1000 fps will go 22" through the vitals of a 165# hoof weight hog at 17 yd and the hog will continue to run over 200 yd before falling down in a pool of its own foamy blood . A 145 # hog punched through both lungs just behind the heart will take 3-5 steps semi circle and fall in a heap at 47 yd as will a 135# hog at feet shot high inside the rt front shoulder with a cut in the left inside ham .

I lost 2 deer about 3 yr ago both shot at most 150 yd with the above mentioned 2700 fps 150 gr 30 cal BTSP both went down both were hit well and both should have been dead by the wound itself or by blood out and shock trauma assuming the the baseball sized exit wasn't enough. I followed blood for over a mile and a 200yd grid in knee to hip deep sage brush searching for both of them.

I've seen a hog take a 264 WM with 140 gr Winchester at 40 yd have a boot sized exit and another just have some bulged and torn skin . Same load, same range, same weight different angle.

The 1st deer I killed was when I was 14 Dad's 25-06 117 gr Partition 3100 fps 350 yd held for the wind and letter' rip. Smoked the neck in and ugly bad way . That 4x4 hit the ground hard enough to break a chip off an antler tip. Same rifle and load left a bigger entry wound than exit on a 125 yd buck . Both mulie. We don't talk about the white tail damage of 3 yr ago it's too ugly.

What we argue too often is pass through or energy dump? Or is it where we put it ? In the end it is about consistency and tissue disruption. It doesn't matter how it's done whether it is a dead pellet off 00B just under 800 fps at impact or a bronze wad cutter at 2500 fps or some super duper magical super bullet if you cut an ear or skintit they wander off someplace and someone else gets a chance. If you get central nervous system, heart ,lungs ,liver and or major arteries with almost any other broken bones the animal normally won't get far.

I see a lot of ethos I disagree with here too but that's me and that's you and I suppose if there were known bears I would decline to go stomping around in a thicket too ,but not in the late season .

I think the harvest,kill what have you is between you and the quarey and whatever deity you choose or deny. Me I figure I will have to answer to the elders so it's best to leave as few questions as possible , I'll be there the 1st month before we get to adolescence and it might take a year or more to get to 21.

[Digital Dan]

I'm gonna call CCI and see if I can talk them into making an AI version of their CBs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2953_zps5684c330.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2953_zps5684c330.jpg.html)

[Lead Fred]

Do not tell me my 30-30 loads of an elongated bullet are not enough to kill a deer/bear or moose. Sorry you are wrong all the way.


A guy I know has a bison herd. Every year he uses his great grand father's Winchester 30WCF
He is a third generation herder. Still using the original rifle they started with.

[Digital Dan]

Up until I joined the service, the only rifle I'd ever fired was a couple of .22 RF guns, more in the carny gallery than anything else. I've shot a few more of those since and a number of CF rifles, as much for hunting as anything else. Shooting paper really isn't my bag. Fact of it is that I was raised with a shotgun in my hand and was late getting started in the world of rifles.

There was a time back in the mid '90s when the missus and me owned a fair track of bottom country just north of Dublin, GA. Near about overrun with hogs and I whacked a bunch of them with every bore shotgun there is and a few with rifles, but not many. 77 was the tally. Never had to shoot one of them twice with anything, most of them went down with #3 buck from an Ithaca 37. Few years later I wound up as a volunteer in a feral hog eradication program for Florida in preserve lands across the street from the house. I quit counting heads a couple years back when a neighbor joined the fray and took over the record keeping. We were restricted to rimfire ammo exclusively. Because it worked I used a Contender Carbine chambered for shorts and shot CB shorts almost exclusively. At the time I transferred record keeping to my associate I had popped 88 hogs with that piece and only one took a second shot.

The reason I stuck with the CB shorts went to the matter that HV ammo, RN or HP did not perform well. Where the CBs would track straight thru the plumbing, the RN and HP ammo either veered or fragmented when it struck bone. Lesson I took from that is that bullet construction commensurate with the velocity at hand was instrumental in a successful conclusion. For example, the bullet below was removed from the hog pictured above about 6" deep in the neck muscle behind the skull.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/DSCN0520_zps7db471ca.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/DSCN0520_zps7db471ca.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zps85ccff04.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zps85ccff04.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg.html)

It should be obvious the bullet deformed very little in transiting multiple bone layers. My point here is that calculated sectional density is relevant only to exterior ballistics. What is important is retained SD and that is an issue related to construction and velocity. In conjunction with momentum we have therein the combination which provides for predictable penetration. If that is coupled with precise placement all else is prattle.

I will probably irritate a few of you gentlemen when saying this, but FPE is irrelevant. Bullet performance can be properly viewed in terms of whether or not the bullet has characteristics that make it suitable for shots targeting the thoracic cavity or not. Such things should be taken to define what options are available to the shooter, not as an excuse to spray and pray. Velocity is relevant only to the extent that it is compatible with bullet construction. Ask the bison how that works.

I do not take shots that risk an uncertain outcome with anything other that belt fed guns. Lost track a long time back of the deer I've taken and at this point, the hogs as well. With the .22 RF I have declined to take an awful lot of shots because, well, I can't climb trees worth a toot.

If a person knows the limits of his skills, the capability of his chosen rifle or shotgun and has the discipline to operate within those parameters the loss of game animals will be rare. W.D.M. Bell knew that.

[leftiye]

Well said!

[w5pv]

I have lost three deer,One that I shot ahead of my dogs but failed to go check on it and that was my fault.The dogs were running two deer,I shot and killed one but but there was a hesitation and the dogs brought the other out and I thought that there was just one deer and when I was hunting a couple of days later I saw the vultures and when I went to check it was a dead six pointer.The other two were stolen after being gutted and hung up.Some one stole one while I was going to get my truck and the other maybe a mountain lion got it or some wetbacks that crossed our lease could have,I just don't know but it was gone.

[Digital Dan]

IMHO energy rules/law for hunting is to provide an easy guideline to minimize injured animals.

They do not. As example, Georgia allows hunting with ANY centerfire rifle of .22 caliber or larger. There is no energy reference.

Florida allows deer and hog hunting with any CF cartridge.

[Edward]

I am sure the deer my kids grew up on /17 yrs 4-5 per year were not thrilled to hear the 183 FPS cedar shaft incoming and some times going thru powered by a 55 and 65 LB stik bow .My kids always ate good and they did not suffer blood shot meat with broken bones .Selective shots and every day practice year round worked for me ,over kill comes to mind :bigsmyl2:

[leftiye]

Nobody is saying that minimum energy is the way to go. But understanding how it really works is still understanding worth acquiring. That having been done, understanding that more is in all cases better until too much looms on the horizon is also worth knowing.

[reloader28]

Easy do not shoot at distances you cannot figure out or have known where you hit. In NH my shot's in the last 40+ years is at most 75 yards.

Yes I have hunted when shots are over 200 but I deeply refuse to shoot at anything but targets past 350 yards it is not fair to the game.

Most game shots at 400+ are not ethical IMHO

By the way when I want to shoot super long range Cast boolits are not in the reliable area for hunting



I aint read all the posts yet, and your entitled to your opinion.
But you obviously dont know jack about western hunting. 400yds is not super long range and is a cakewalk with little practice. My daughters have shot deer farther than that. One took an elk at 823yds.
Sometimes there is just no way you can get any closer. Just because you cant do it dont mean its unethical. I know LOTS of hunters out here that can.

[Geezer in NH]

I aint read all the posts yet, and your entitled to your opinion.
But you obviously dont know jack about western hunting. 400yds is not super long range and is a cakewalk with little practice. My daughters have shot deer farther than that. One took an elk at 823yds.
Sometimes there is just no way you can get any closer. Just because you cant do it dont mean its unethical. I know LOTS of hunters out here that can.When you can have drops 4 times the size of the animal in 50 yards that is for sure wrong.

How many wounded or whatever for the average shooter. But yes I have hunted out west and kept my ranges It's called hunting not shooting. Have a nice day.

[waksupi]

I aint read all the posts yet, and your entitled to your opinion.
But you obviously dont know jack about western hunting. 400yds is not super long range and is a cakewalk with little practice. My daughters have shot deer farther than that. One took an elk at 823yds.
Sometimes there is just no way you can get any closer. Just because you cant do it dont mean its unethical. I know LOTS of hunters out here that can.

If you can't get closer than that, you aren't a hunter, you're a shooter. I've killed enough deer, antelope, and elk with flintlocks, bows and revolvers to be able to do it. You apparently need to learn some.

[reloader28]

I had something typed but erased it. I wont waist my time.
I'm otta here.

[tdoyka]

If you can't get closer than that, you aren't a hunter, you're a shooter. I've killed enough deer, antelope, and elk with flintlocks, bows and revolvers to be able to do it. You apparently need to learn some.

i gotta agree with waksupi.
i am an eastern woods hunter. whitetails and black bears are all i know. my furthest shot was 365+/- yards and the close shot was 11 feet. most of my shooting is within 50 yards. last year, i was(still am!!!) into cast boolits. i shot a doe 93 yards away and a little 6 point i had to pass on because it was 187 yards away. i limit myself to a 150 yards. i know that with cast boolits i can go alot further than 150 yards, but i do have a limit on how far do i shoot. i also put 50 yards on my revolver, anything more than that i use a rifle.

can i shoot 800+ yards? yes, but what the h#@l for? you think it looks good? i don't. neither does most people. i'm sitting here with a no good right arm/leg(stroke) and even i can get closer than that. it makes most hunters nothing more than shooters.

[Digital Dan]

Well, ya got to figure someones feathers would get ruffled here and there with a fireside chat like this. I know a fella out in NW Wyoming that hunts with a flinter for antelopes and other such things. Then he'll take on the best BP shooters on earth at long range with cartridge guns. He also shoots F Class stuff but sometimes refers to smokeless powder as a passing fad. I call him a cowboy rather than make a distinction about hunter/shooter. Has all the bases covered he does.

I'm a still hunter for big game. Shots are close in my AO, rarely more than 20 yards, but I stretched out the .22 to a measured 38 yards one afternoon. My attempt at stunt shooting I guess. Then there was the time not too far from Khe Sahn where the Sons of Ho felt my wrath at about 1000 meters. I didn't use a sight because, well, 6 barrels and belt feed cover a lot of sin.

In a perfect world we would all be skilled hunters and dead shots every time. Since it isn't our nature to be perfect it behooves us to understand the bits and parts of our sport and govern ourselves accordingly. Everybody has it within themselves to kill dinosaurs at great distance with a Dewalt nailgun I suppose, but it doesn't mean we should try.

M1A3 gunners on the other hand, stretch it out dooooods! Sectional density rules! :bigsmyl2:

[6pt-sika]

Over the last 48 years I've killed deer with bow , handgun, ML , shotgun slugs , shotgun buckshot , jacketed rifle and cast rifle bullets . And if I make it to this deer season I should surpass a 300 deer lifetime total . And with that being said many have been dead right there with everything I mentioned . And others have run a few yards after being hit and then fell over dead . As well as a very few that went 100-200 yards and were found dead .

Of the deer killed so far perhaps 60-70 of them have been killed with home cast bullets in the last 12-14 years . The smallest I used was the 30-30 and the largest the 45-70 . By percentage the largest in DRT was a tie between the 444 and 45-70 . But none of the deer I shot with home cast bullets traveled more then 30-40 yards after the shot and all but one or two were dead when I arrived .

With jacketed rifle bullets I don't have any complaints as long as I do my part . I will say the DRT thing had a far greater percentage in the 444 with cast bullets over jacketed .

I think so far the longest I've fired at any deer has been about 225-250 yards and that was in Montana . My overall average for all the deer I've killed in my lifetime is about 42 yards , but granted I hunt mostly in the woods here in Virginia and the flooded trees/marsh in Dorchester County Maryland .

I personally feel there are way to many variables to say this cartridge or that cartridge is or isn't acceptable .

[6pt-sika]

i gotta agree with waksupi.
i am an eastern woods hunter. whitetails and black bears are all i know.

I hunted several years in NE PA for deer and bear !

Never killed but two bear in my life both in VA on damage control permits . Only fired two shots at bear in my life . Got the first at NINE yards , popped him in the head with a 375 grain home cast bullet in a 444 . The second I shot from the same treestand at 70 yards again with a homecast 340 grain LBT bullet . Both were DRT I might add !

[reloader28]

If you can't get closer than that, you aren't a hunter, you're a shooter. I've killed enough deer, antelope, and elk with flintlocks, bows and revolvers to be able to do it. You apparently need to learn some.

Is that a fact?
If your sitting on your butt in a stand then you are also NOT a hunter. Your an ambusher by definition. Not much skill involved, just patience.
I'm just sick of eastern people saying that this or that is unethical. I've snuck up to spitting distance of more deer and elk and bears than most on this forum and also shot more at long range than most. Contrary to what some think, there are times when you CANT get any closer. At least I dont sit in a stand. Thats unethical in my opinion.

Its been a looong week and that hit the wrong nerve. I wont post anymore here to keep things kinda civil.

[Digital Dan]

Well, when you got there did ya spit on 'em? How do bears take that?

Legendary fellow named Billy Dixon pulled a stunt shot at Adobe Walls some time back. I mention it only because I'm wondering what the residual velocity/energy was for his bullet after wandering about in the clear western sky for about a mile. And would it have made a difference if the bullet hit him at the same velocity from point blank? Probably not, but it might have been a little cooler after a mile.

[Harter66]

Well I would hope to be the guy that can stick a fork in this and call it done but the smart money says I'm backing up a tanker truck and throwing open the valve on the 8" dump valve .

I've hunted Nevada most of my life in both the bare granite above the tree line and quaken aspen so thick an ear and eyeball was all you ever saw . I've made stands on a point to be the drive shooter and picked a rock pile on a trail to water . But I've also spot and stalked into a boulder pile where there was nothing left but wind at your back and flag stone and 350 yd was the shot you made or passed . My closest kill was a Texas Hog ,135# boar with powder burns something like 5ft from muzzle to impact . I've crawled across open ground from 1 basketball sized bush to anther to muck up an 80yd shot .......too much thinking not enough shooting. A couple of years ago I lost deer that should have been dead at 150-200 yd . Still makes me sick. I can admit I missed a 35 yr shot with a BlackHawk because well..... I botched it .

This weekend I fired 30 rds at a 8" gong at 260 yd from 4 rifles . 3 cast 1 jacketed. I managed 5 hits . I felt good about it . Why ? 1 of the rifles is a 2" rifle at best and that means at 260 yd it's a 6" rifle at best and I made 3/10 with it ,with a 2" margin of error 360*. I only had test/confirmation loads for a brand new build with a post and wire 4x fixed scope .......the post covered the gong and any hope of a windage guess . I did make a hit 1/5 . 220 gr 35 cal at 2100 fps .
New build 257 Roberts borrowed ammo . With the load it looks like that rifle will shoot a dime for 5 @100 1 hit in 6 . It took 3 to get the hold over right . I've fired 65 rounds in these 2 rifles now.
Ever shot a peep sighted 30-30 with 60 yo ammo factory ammo at a 260 yd target ?

We're hunters . I've hunted stuff so thick you had to go around it while chipmunks laughed at you . I've also hunted open ground where a sneak was possible to close anther 10 much less 350 , and they were a half mile apart .

I would suggest that the clans of both the open country super mag 2-500 yd normal shots and the 16" 30 WCF 94 sometimes is too much gun , swap some hunts with 1 another as an opportunity to get inside fish bowl . You will find that it isn't about climbing into "my 14th grandads" tree house and ambushing something any more than hunting deer above the tree line is just about shooting long range because we're to lazy to sneak up and cut their throat with a pen knife . (Poking fun at both clans and all you poor bass turds that have to make do with a 12ga slug and folks that have never done it).

[waksupi]

Is that a fact?
If your sitting on your butt in a stand then you are also NOT a hunter. Your an ambusher by definition. Not much skill involved, just patience.
I'm just sick of eastern people saying that this or that is unethical. I've snuck up to spitting distance of more deer and elk and bears than most on this forum and also shot more at long range than most. Contrary to what some think, there are times when you CANT get any closer. At least I dont sit in a stand. Thats unethical in my opinion.

Its been a looong week and that hit the wrong nerve. I wont post anymore here to keep things kinda civil.


I am not a stand hunter. I have always been a still/spot and stalk hunter. I'm not an eastern hunter, I'm in NW Montana. I figured out long range game shooting is a suckers game, from years of long range competition shooting. I've seen the variables of wind, light, and an animal moving. If you think you have that all figured out 100%, you are dreaming.
Tell yourself whatever fairy tale you wish, long range shooting at game is an irresponsible game.

I repeat, you are not a hunter.

[Markbo]

I had something typed but erased it. I wont waist my time.
I'm otta here.

Appreciate you not wasting any more of our time

[tdoyka]

Is that a fact?
If your sitting on your butt in a stand then you are also NOT a hunter. Your an ambusher by definition. Not much skill involved, just patience.
I'm just sick of eastern people saying that this or that is unethical. I've snuck up to spitting distance of more deer and elk and bears than most on this forum and also shot more at long range than most. Contrary to what some think, there are times when you CANT get any closer. At least I dont sit in a stand. Thats unethical in my opinion.

Its been a looong week and that hit the wrong nerve. I wont post anymore here to keep things kinda civil.

i used to be a little of both, stand and still hunting. while i was still hunting i shot this one at 11 feet.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h273/tdoyka/IMG_0012_zpspeebyfwe.jpg (http://s66.photobucket.com/user/tdoyka/media/IMG_0012_zpspeebyfwe.jpg.html)

now adays, i'm a stand hunter since my stroke. it must mean i'm unethical. i would tell you what to kiss, but its a family forum.

[Markbo]

Is that a fact?
If your sitting on your butt in a stand then you are also NOT a hunter. Your an ambusher by definition. Not much skill involved, just patience.
I'm just sick of eastern people saying that this or that is unethical. I've snuck up to spitting distance of more deer and elk and bears than most on this forum and also shot more at long range than most. Contrary to what some think, there are times when you CANT get any closer. At least I dont sit in a stand. Thats unethical in my opinion.

Its been a looong week and that hit the wrong nerve. I wont post anymore here to keep things kinda civil.

Well I reckon thanks to you I can relearn what I know about predators. Tigers, lions, leopards, crocodiles are all considered ambush predators. Thank goodness we now know they are not REAL hunters. What are they? Vegans in disguise? Mister I dont know you from Adam but it seems to me you are exceptionally closed minded and think ONLY your ways are the best ways.

Why dont you come down to Texas and do some spot and stalk on some big feral hogs in brush you cant see 5 feet in and tell me how your ways are the only ways? There is one sure way to never learn anything and that is to think you already know every G## Damned thing.

Huh... sounds a little like Hillary and Bernie doesnt it? I have been blessed to hunt in several states and the one thing I have learned is that it is different all over this great country. When I start saying my way is the best ( or worse the only) way I have shut my mind off to learning something. Good Lord willing I will never be that damned smart.

[Hickory]

This has been an interesting thread, it sure don't take much for a person to get jacked out of shape.[smilie=l:

[white eagle]

I know one thing for sure I never have or ever will
say my type of hunting is better than someone elses
just different is all

[Digital Dan]

I have it on good authority that just before Billy moved into position he said "Hold my beer and watch this."

[tdoyka]

I have it on good authority that just before Billy moved into position he said "Hold my beer and watch this."
i held the beer!!!