Polymer vs steel frames in auto loaders

[Bmi48219]

For the life of me I can't believe the polymer type frames on most of the new auto loaders can hold up as well as steel. It would seem the poly has to wear sooner or later from the moving contact of the steel slide. My model 59 (bought it new almost 4 decades ago) has an alloy (I think some form of aluminum) frame. I don't shoot it much, maybe 10,000 round total since new, but I always worry the slide rails on the frame will eventually get loose from wear. Not so far and still accurate, really light SA factory trigger too.
I believe the manufacturers went with alloys & polymers to reduce weight. Also, I haven't really been looking but wonder how many of the magnum type autos have non-steel frames. Not an engineer but polymer, as tuff as it may be, is a form of plastic, I think. Rubbing steel against plastic doesn't sound like a permanent system. Anyone know if the current military issue sidearms are poly framed? That might change my opinion, I'd like to believe the DOD knows what they are doing.

I must be getting old because guns without exposed hammers (with a few exceptions) bother me too.

[Mica_Hiebert]

The polymer pistols have steel rails molded into the frame for the slide to ride on its not plastic on metal.

[scattershot]

What he said. Also, I have seen some pretty brutal torture tests of Glock pistols on YouTube, which pretty much answered my questions on their durability. That's saying a lot, from a guy who believes the evolution of handgun design ended with the Colt SAA and the Browning HiPower.

[NC_JEFF]

I've never fired a polymer framed pistol that just called my name. I've shot Glock and a few Smiths and never really took to them. I know a lot here swear by them but so far their just not for me. I'm glad we all have lots of choices. The frame wear question is something I have thought about as well.

[Walkingwolf]

:popcorn:

[ReloaderFred]

Polymer handguns have the steel rail molded into the frame, so the bearing surfaces are steel on steel. In most semi-auto handguns, there isn't actually that much bearing surface to worry about, since most don't have full length rails anyway, with some exceptions.

I was forced to carry a Glock 22 for the last year and a half before I retired, and I don't own any Glock handguns now. I didn't care for the ergonomics of that particular firearm, and there were other features I didn't like at all.

Now that I can carry anything I want, or shoot anything I want at the range, I do own numerous Springfield XD handguns, with polymer frames. They fit my hand better, point better and have better triggers than any of the Glocks I ever fired, but that's a personal preference. Some people like Fords and some like Chevrolets.... (sorry, but I don't know anyone who owns a Dodge truck)........

I own over 50 handguns of various manufacturers and construction, including those 6 Springfield XD's. I've yet to wear one out, whether it's an alloy, steel or polymer frame handgun. As long as you keep the moving parts lubed, they will in all likelihood outlast you.

The one thing I have found with the XD's is there is a difference in felt recoil from a steel frame. In my .45 acp XD and 357 Sig XD, the recoil isn't as pronounced as the same calibers in my all steel frame guns of the same calibers. I've read that there may be some flex in the polymer that helps to cushion the recoil impulse, but I can't prove that one way or another. I just know that my XD's are light recoiling handguns in .45 acp and 357 Sig.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Petrol & Powder]

The crux of the matter is well covered in post #2.

As for steel slides riding on alloy frames, it may be a better set up than first meets the eye. It appears that the alloy rails wear a little at first but then "settle in" and the wear doesn't accelerate much after that initial break in. Despite the worry that the softer alloy frame will wear faster than steel rails would, the actual results don't seem to show that occurring. Steel on steel may win in the end but the end is likely 100's of thousands of rounds as opposed to a few thousand rounds.

The large relative movement between the slide and the frame is assumed to be the major point of wear in a semi-auto pistol but that interface is probably under less stress than some other areas of semi-auto pistol. In addition, the forces applied to the slide rails are distributed over comparatively large areas and those forces are generally linear rather than shearing forces. (there's obviously shearing force involved on slide rails but the surfaces aren't heavily loaded).

The polymer frames themselves have proven to be very capable of withstanding the forces applied.

[dubber123]

While I own exactly 1 plastic pistol, a S&W Shield, and have only had it about a week, I watched a video by Jerry Miculek in which he claimed it quite likely the polymer frames would outlast a steel version due to the shock absorbing qualities of the polymer. He shoots a good bit more than most of us, so I trust his word. My high miler for an auto is a steel 1911, with about 35,000 rounds through it. It has many more left in it, and shows only very minor wear on the slide rails.

[dkf]

Battlefield Vegas runs a lot of high round count guns. This is what he posted over onthe AR15 forum.


The background for the high round count is that we are rental-only range one block off the Las Vegas Strip (called Battlefield Vegas) and after all the talk about AK's, I completely spaced on the reliability of the pistols we use on the line everyday of the year except for Christmas. We go through approximately 150,000-180,000 rounds combined of 9mm, .45, .50AE, .500S&W, .38 Special, .380 and 9mm Makarov each month. I don't count .22 because even though we go through 1,000's of rounds, it's not in the same class as our standard calibers.

I can tell you that even though I am not a "Glock (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=30074&m=1470973370&q=n&rdgt=1457958330&it=1458390330&et=1458563130&priceret=104.99&pg=%7E%7E3&k=543aeb5c8033c8df41bdf21f59000b63&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Frd%2Ebizrate%2Ecom%2Frd%3Ft%3Dhtt p%253A%252F%252Fwww%2Ebrownells%2Ecom%252Fhandgun% 2Dparts%252Fbarrel%2Dparts%252Fbarrels%252Fm%2D22% 2D40s%2Dw%2Dstock%2Dlength%2Dbarrel%2Dsku100007607 %2D44315%2D99945%2Easpx%253Fcm%5Fmmc%253Dcse%2D%5F %2DItwine%2D%5F%2Dshopzilla%2D%5F%2DStock%252520Le ngth%252520Barrels%252520For%252520Glock%257E%2526 gdftrk%253DgdfV21820%5Fa%5F7c187%5Fa%5F7c7313%5Fa% 5F7c100007607%5Fd%5F100007604%5Fd%5F10529%26mid%3D 158466%26cat%5Fid%3D12150125%26atom%3D10468%26prod %5Fid%3D%26oid%3D4046792307%26pos%3D1%26b%5Fid%3D1 8%26bid%5Ftype%3D1%26bamt%3Da5fedf14fd8fec0d%26cob rand%3D106%26ppr%3Dcaf88b489c45a5c9%26mpid%3D10000 7607%2D100007604%2D10529%26brandId%3D43667%26rf%3D afp%26af%5Fassettype%5Fid%3D12%26af%5Fcreative%5Fi d%3D2932%26af%5Fid%3D613705%26af%5Fplacement%5Fid% 3D1&st=feed&mt=%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7En%7E%7E%7E) guy", it is the most reliable handgun in our inventory and I would trust it with my life. We use Gen1-Gen4 17's on the line and they are the most hassle-free handgun we have. I used my original Gen1 17 when we first opened two and a half years ago and it finally broke about six months ago. When I say broke, Glock's pretty much are the only handgun that suffer a "catastrophic" break. The slide cracks right at the narrow portion at the ejection port. They will continue to fire most of the time but the rounds group at the top right corner of the target. The factory recoil springs are amazing because the just keep going. The Glock gets used probably 10X as much as our Beretta M92's so it's not a fair to say the Beretta is more reliable (see below). We don't use aftermarket slides on our Glocks so I couldn't give you any info those because Glock will replace our cracked slides under warranty. Also, I don't meant to give the impression that breake slides all the time but it would be fair to say that they get at least 100,000 rounds before cracking.

My personal favorite, the Sig P226 doesn't fair as well. We go through more recoil springs in our 226's than any other weapon system combined. We've yet to break a slide but they will not function with a broken recoil spring.

Our Desert Eagle .50AE's run pretty reliable but the part that fails the most is the piston. We always have a few spares in the shop.

Our Beretta M92's...the one that all the RSO's hate, also hold up very well. In the last two years with the same four Beretta's, we've only replaced one barrel and "locking piece" that sits under the barrel. The M92 is only included in one package that we offer or the customer has to request that pistol specifically. It doesn't get run nearly as hard as the 1911's, Glock's or Sig's.

I will get more info on our 1911's (we use Sig, Springfield and Armscor) and I know I see them tagged for repair more often than the other pistols. I will find out what is the most common issue.

I figure if I crack a slide, break a frame, etc and didn't KB it myself Glock will fix it for free.

[Schrag4]

...I must be getting old because guns without exposed hammers (with a few exceptions) bother me too.

I don't think you have to be old to take any position. I know young guys that like steel-framed, hammer-fired guns. I'm a big fan of compact, polymer, striker-fired guns because they're typically much lighter than their steel counterparts and they're easy to use. I do carry a full-sized gun from time to time, but I'm much more likely to carry something that conceals easier and more comfortably. That's just my reasoning, though. I certainly don't fault anyone for preferring other guns for their own reasons.

You mentioned the DOD - are you saying a huge govt agency that spends millions and millions on trials will always choose the best option? I could be full of it, but it seems to me that the primary mission of most agencies is to spend the money in their budget so it won't get slashed in the future. You can point to decades-long trials that spend many, many billions and result in something arguably worse than what they set out to replace.

[DougGuy]

I like the poly framed option. Lets me carry with one in the pipe and not have to worry about some cop or DA or judge freaking out because the hammer is pulled back and cocked. Yep that really happened. They accused me of "just driving down the road looking for somebody to shoot." F@@king retards.

[FergusonTO35]

I guess I'm kind of a weirdo. I like my autos to be poly framed and striker fired, with the exception of the BHP. However, I like my wheelguns to be steel, wear wood panel grips, and be chambered in unsexy non-magnum calibers. Also, Marlin lever actions are by far my fave assault rifles!
:cbpour:

[376Steyr]

File this one under Murphy's Law: I recently read an article (Firearms News, maybe?) where the author claimed that hanging a light on a Glock with moulded-in accessory rails could cause malfunctions when the poly frame flexed due to the light's weight during firing.

[dubber123]

It's interesting that rental range quoted above says the steel slide on the Glocks gives up long before the plastic frame. Still 100,000 rounds to do that. Pretty impressive.

[BK7saum]

File this one under Murphy's Law: I recently read an article (Firearms News, maybe?) where the author claimed that hanging a light on a Glock with moulded-in accessory rails could cause malfunctions when the poly frame flexed due to the light's weight during firing.

I think it has been substantiated to a couple of agencies that a combination of ammo, light on accessory rail and .40 cal caused malfunctions and frame cracking in Glocks.

[Lonegun1894]

When I went through the academy in '08, we had about 20 of us going through the course. There was one Sigma, one Beretta 92, my one 1911, and the rest of the class used Glock 22s, split about 50/50 as to with or without lights mounted. The ONLY problems/jams were with the Glocks with lights mounted. There were no cracked frames, but a lot of jams. The jams always went away when the lights were removed. I know it is a fairly small sample, but it was a definite pattern.

[gilgsn]

Like others pointed out, Polymer framed guns have inserts so there is no plastic-metal friction at all. I am a big fan of the SAA and its variants, but I owned a Glock 17 and it was utterly reliable. I shot only reloaded lead bullets in it, dozens of thousands.. If I needed a gun to bet my life on in an urban environment, I see no better choice. I like a gun you can toss anywhere, forget about (I seldom cleaned mine) that will always shoot and cycle when you need it, while babying some nice revolver.

Gil

[Ural Driver]

Gotta agree with Gil. I've carried various models of Glock pistols tucked into my waistband for many years......sweating till it literally dripped off the gun. It always went bang, never so much as a hiccup...... and yes it got cleaned.......when I felt like it. Years ago I tried carrying a Colt SS 1911 as a duty gun. Awesome weapon, nice to look at and fit my hand like it was made just for me.......but, I was working a Solo Motor Officer in Texas. That translates to 10 hour days in the saddle all year round. (For those of you that have never been to Texas a bit of meteorological trivia. We have the same 4 seasons as everyone else. The difference is, Fall, Winter and Spring all happen in about three or four months......everything else is what y'all would consider Summertime). So, even though this was stainless steel, I was having to do weekly detail strip/clean just to keep the rust at bay from all the sweat I was pouring into that gun.....(humans really do secrete some naaaasty substances). After about a year of that, during which I became a very good at disassembly/reassembly of the Colt 1911 system, I switched over to a Glock 10mm.......and I have been a Glockophile ever since. I love my guns, and the 1911 has a special place in my heart, but I have yet to find any "metal" gun that will hold up like the Glocks do in real world use. So, at least in my little spot in this world........should the feces come in contact with the rotary oscillator.....:dung_hits_fan:.......and I find myself in a position where a long gun is out of reach............:groner:...........it is very, very likely that your gonna find one of my Glock's in my hand...........:Fire:........and because of my personal experiences with that brand, I have no doubt that it will go bang every single time........;-)......and afterwards, I will clean it...............when I feel like it. :cool:

[FergusonTO35]

As an aside, the Ruger P95, P97, and P345 had plastic slide rails in the frame. Ruger generally builds guns stronger than they need to be.

[Geezer in NH]

I'll carry the weight in ammo. Thanks.

In NH the big range in Manchester sells their rentals once a year, Glock services them at the range and it is hard to get one due to the demand.

Jim the owner told me most rentals have 80,000-100,000 rounds fired. They clean the pistols when the stop or every month whether they need it or not.

After shooting them at the range I changed to them for carry. I also had a shop
and started recommending them. In a few years had sold over 300 with no complaints until a customer brought in one with his reload stuck out of battery. I put on the welding gloves and grinding face shield and my trusty 3 pound rawhide hammer.

I hammered the slide forward until it locked and then fired the gun. Gun was fine after, I sent the gun back to Glock and the found nothing wrong but replaced all the springs anyway.

I told the customer you need some help reloading and gave him some names in the club, he did and has not had a problem since.

[bedbugbilly]

I have always been a revolver person and like steel . . . but when I started looking for a semi-auto (the few I've owned over the years were "vintage" . . like me . . . and they were steel - the only thing I kept seeing was "plastic". It took a lot for me to buy one . . . just the idea of it was a turn off. My first was a Ruger SR9 and that changed my mind about plastic after firing a few hundred rounds. My next was a Smith 9mm Shield and that one I absolutely love and wouldn't part with. I shoot it more than my SR9 and it loves all the cast I send through it. I still mainly shoot my vintage revolvers but I'm sure my two "plastic" handguns will far outlast me. I've never shot a Glock and I doubt I'll ever own one but I've watched som others do some pretty impressive shooting with them. Different strokes for different folks . .

[sqlbullet]

I like hammers. I like safeties. And I like the classic lines of the 1911 and the neo-classic lines of a CZ-75.

I have two 1911's, two EAA Witness, and two Glocks. All are 10mm. The Glocks get carried, the others get shot at the range from time to time.

[jmort]

I have a four P89s that I love. As reliable as it gets, all metal, external hammer, decocker, and a lanyard loop. I have some polymer guns as well, but my house gun/range gun is a P89. I carry the polymer guns as noted in the above post.

[johniv]

I think it is a trade off (as many things in life are). As long as things don't happen that are out of the normal cycle of the gun, I don't think it matters about wear. BUT , each has its strong points , a steel frame will rust, the polymer will not, in the case of a blown case head, the polymer frame is usually toast, while I have seen steel framed pistols just lose the grip panels, of course this is a matter of degree and a steel frame can be damaged by ammo fail. I presently own one polymer frame pistol (H&K) and have owned others (glock) The glock soon went in trade and I don't miss it. Not as reliable as others and not as friendly to my hand size. Pick which ever you like , it will work for you.
FWIW
John

[Hammerhead]

I don't care if a gun is plastic framed or all steel, just as long as it's 100% reliable and accurate. The only .45's that have met those standards for me are the poly framed HK's.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I looove my 1911s!
I also have Glocks, (no lights) and feel that polymer frame pistols have proven themselves.
So I'm not going to take a side or advocate one over the other.
I'll just tell a story that the O.P. might find interesting. When I was in law enforcement I had occasion to work with an officer from another agency. He wasn't a gun guy, he just had the one pistol, a S&W Mod. 39, which he had owned for years. Before he came to the agency where I met him he had worked on the D.C. Police Dept., usually at night. He said that it was customary to remove his handgun from its holster on every traffic stop because of the darkness and the clientele. When I met him it had about 15 years of wear on it, and it was one of the oddest handguns I've ever seen. The frame, being aluminum alloy, had worn badly from the constant friction with the holster, in and out, until the right side of the pistol was totally silver colored and all sharp edges had been worn completely smooth. The steel slide was in much better condition, and the left side of the pistol, both frame and slide, looked almost like new. It was the only one like it I've ever seen.

[Moonie]

I used to carry one of my 1911's every day. Usually the compact, however even it gets heavy after a while. I ended up getting a Springfield XD subcompact 40, wow, huge difference in weight. It is much more comfortable to carry all day.

The XD cannot compare to the 1911's in style and trigger however for a self defense gun that will be carried, I'll carry the XD.

[FergusonTO35]

I'm planning to get a Glock 43 at some point. It seems to be the perfect size for a carry 9mm that you can still enjoy shooting.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I think the idea of making a polymer frame was to keep down the cost of machining as well as making the pistol lighter. I don't like polymer framed guns for purely esthetic reasons but if I were required to carry a pistol in my job, it would have a polymer frame. They are lighter, reliable and have fewer parts. As much as I love revolvers, you have to admit, they are so yesterday. I have lots of handguns and only one is an autoloader and naturally it's a 1911 clone.

[Plate plinker]

I'm planning to get a Glock 43 at some point. It seems to be the perfect size for a carry 9mm that you can still enjoy shooting.
absolutely !

[oger]

I just like the way a 1911 fits my hand. Don't know if it's because that is what I shoot far more than anything else but every Glock I have ever owned is gone except one and there won't be any more.

[Patrick56]

I had a lot of pistols in my days, but the one that I am not going to sell is my Walther P99.

[garym1a2]

Owning glocks G19,G21F,G22 and a G35 I like Glocks. The G35 with a light 40 load is my USPSA gun. For 3gun I run it with a lone wolf 9mm barrel and 19 round mags. Both my 22 and 35 work great with 9mm barrel change, Glocks do fail, both my G21sf and G22 had trigger return springs break at 10 to 15k mark, they where aftermarket.

[hp246]

The poly frames have been around long enough. They deserve our respect. Personally I like a good steel frame. Well remember when a good hardball gun loosened up, taking it to the armorer, having him put the frame in a jig, give it a whack and just as good as new.