Dissolving carnauba wax

[rda72927]

Searched, but I haven't found a straight answer. I want to add a little carnauba to a tumble lube. Will it dissolve in Naphtha? Will I need to heat it first and then add the Naphtha?

Thanks for anyone's time;

[bangerjim]

DO NOT HEAT NAPTHTHA! Very combustable even at room temp. And nap will dilute you lube too much. It will evap eventually.

Carnauba is a very high temp wax. I use it all the time in custom wood polsihes and finishes. It melts at around 180F, so you will have a hard time getting it into your low temp lube.

Get your lube up as hot as you dare and add the PRE-HEATED to melting point carnauba and gradually blend it in. Not too fast or it will set up in your lube. Even then, you will have to have your lube much hotter than you normally do.

It can be done. Back when I was using grease I added it as above. Now I use powder coating only.

Just do not heat nap.

[randyrat]

Melt your Carnauba wax first then add your tumble lube and keep it just warm enough to combine the ingredients.

I used to play with adding Carnauba to Alox along with beeswax and other different combinations and I always had to melt Carnauba first. Normally in lube you have to melt your highest melt temp ingredient first then add other ingredients, trying not to scorch them.

To answer your question; Nothing dissolves wax, that is non flammable and not dangerous to play with

[.22-10-45]

I have been using Carnuaba from Randy Rat in my Beeswax base..castor oil..anhydrous lanolin lube recipies..never had any trouble melting in double boiler.

[Bulliwig]

You may rasp your Carnauba and mix the tiny pieces with your Naphtha, I think they should dissolve. But for god's sake, DONT HEAT NAPHTHA UP.
It would make it easier, but heating highly flammable liquids is dangerous. Very high risk of burning yourself and do it outside. The fumes you inhale are either damaging to your health and turning you crazy.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There used to be a vogue, largely superseded by powder-coating, for coating bullets with powdered carnauba wax and molybdium sulphide. The two powders, in that order, were tumble-polished onto the surface of the bullets, either jacketed or cast. I think you could reduce carnauba wax to powder by a pestle and mortar followed by a coffee grinder, and it would then mix well with a softer molten wax, whether or not the carnauba melted. To tumble-polish it, fixing up your drum to introduce hot air from a heat gun might help.

As to solubility, I agree that heating any solvent of wax is likely to be dangerous - not just a little, but very. How do you make being burned by a burning solvent worse? By adding a burning gooey substance which is hard to scrape off. Wikipedia says that the waxes are soluble in organic non-polar solvents. I have only the vaguest idea what that means, but it might include benzene or ether. I still have a bottle of the waxy liquid used to correct stencils made by the now obsolete spirit duplicator, and it appears to be based on ether. (No, it wont bind bullet patches in place, an I don't know if it even exists nowdays. By the same token isopropanol, methyl alcohol, ethyl alcohol and ethylene glycol won't do it, since they were used in the copier fluid.

[Greg5278]

Maybe try Dimethylsulfoxide DMSO. It's good as a Solvent for certain Things, and
passing through Skin. I'd have to try and put a drop on some Carnuba Wax to see.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[GhostHawk]

I have added Carnuba to Ben's Liquid Lube ie Johnson's One step wax and Lee Alox.

I preheated a small weighed amount of Carnuba and used a small soldering iron to raise the temp of a small amount of Johnsons liquid wax to blend them. Then added that to the rest of my Ben's LL ingredients.

Worked well, no leading, super clean bright bores, good accuracy.

Bear in mind, Mineral spirits, Naptha, Johnson's liquid wax, all very flammable.
So you want to heat only a small quantity, in a flame proof container, using a method that will not expose that liquid to enough heat to allow it to flash into flame. And you want to do it in a place where if it does happen you can sit back and allow it to burn out without endangering anything. IE NOT your reloading area.

Double boiler with boiling water in the bottom and NO flame would be I think safest.

And as I said, small quantities.

[Lead Fred]

I just put it in a cake , into the oven at 180-200 degrees for 20-30 minutes

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Getting it into a tumble lube is the hard part. If it to be a lube applied conventionally in grooves, and if the carnauba wax is finely powdered, I don't believe it matters whether it melts into the mixture. One part of the lube melts through frictional heat, and another doing it further down the bore, sounds like an advantageous arrangement.

[GhostHawk]

Just exposed to Mineral spirits, naptha, or Johnsons one step wax, some does dissolve. But from my playing around you get maybe 1/2 to 2/3rds of 1 percent to dissolve on prolonged exposure. The rest sits there in suspension forever.

It will get some, but the amount is going to be pretty small.

You may have better luck warming your alox to 200 degrees and dissolve it in that. Heck the microwave might work, just be sure it has room to expand and vent.

[John Boy]

Carnauba is soluble on heating in ethyl acetate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_acetate) and in xylene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylene)

[GhostHawk]

Thank you John Boy.

Xylene just might work. Should evaporate along with the naptha/mineral spirits and leave a hard carnuba shell.

[rda72927]

Ok, the results of my testing and some answers. I was looking for the wax to stay suspended in a medium so I could add it however I wanted.
1). Used 110gn of carnauba flakes it all test, it is about 1/4 oz.

Mixed with Naphtha, SC Johnson Floor wax, Failed.

Double boiler method:
Naphtha and SC Johnson: carnauba melted and mixed, but would not stay mixed when it reached room temp.
Today, went and got a gallon (only way it was sold) of Xylene, same result.

Now the funny thing, as I watch my 3th test fail, it reminded me of my first attempts with Lanolin. For it to work, I had to use 99% alcohol. Not 70%, 90% or PGA 95%, they all would have to be reheated. But not 99%.

So, I get my bottle of Swan 99% from Granger and test it. Add 110gn of carnauba and 2oz of alcohol, heat and wait.
3 hours later at room temp it is still liquid, looks like milk. Moral of the story is, I should have tried what I ALREADY had it my reloading room.

[aephilli822]

There used to be a vogue, largely superseded by powder-coating, for coating bullets with powdered carnauba wax and molybdium sulphide. The two powders, in that order, were tumble-polished onto the surface of the bullets, either jacketed or cast. I think you could reduce carnauba wax to powder by a pestle and mortar followed by a coffee grinder, and it would then mix well with a softer molten wax, whether or not the carnauba melted. To tumble-polish it, fixing up your drum to introduce hot air from a heat gun might help.

....

I thought it was the moly then the wax, but it has been a while since I did it. The powdered wax that came with the NECO COAT moly kit seems to stay in suspension in the Johnson's Liquid One Step before mixing with the LLA to make Ben's Liquid Lube. I'm gonna try some Moly next. :redneck:

[aephilli822]

Blatantly stolen from NECO's website =
"The patented NECO-Coat™ Process ("Moly Coating/plating") is a method of "impact plating" molybdenum disulfide ("moly," MoS2) into the surface of cast or jacketed bullets, followed by an outer coating of carnauba wax. Molybdenum disulfide is one of the best dry sliding-friction lubricants in the world, and the purpose of NECO-Coat™ is of course to reduce friction between bullet and barrel bore. The entire process is accomplished with the use of a tumbler (a rotary tumbler is recommended, but a vibratory tumbler can be used with equal effectiveness), employing hardened (Rockwell C50), ground steel balls as an impact plating medium."

for me, an electric ice cream churn turned sideways worked pretty well as a "tumbler" (didn't want to take a chance on ruining my vibe cleaner)

[aephilli822]

...
Now the funny thing, as I watch my 3th test fail, it reminded me of my first attempts with Lanolin. For it to work, I had to use 99% alcohol. Not 70%, 90% or PGA 95%, they all would have to be reheated. But not 99%.

So, I get my bottle of Swan 99% from Granger and test it. Add 110gn of carnauba and 2oz of alcohol, heat and wait.
3 hours later at room temp it is still liquid, looks like milk. Moral of the story is, I should have tried what I ALREADY had it my reloading room.

Are you saying Denatured Alcohol is the stuff to use? Or isopropyl?

[rda72927]

I'm using Swan 99% Isopropyl Alcohol. I get it from WW Grainger, but I don't see it listed on their website.

[aephilli822]

http://www.wwch.org/technique/finishes/finwaxform.htm

heat it and turpentine in double boiler?

[stu1ritter]

rda72927, is the alcohol/carauba wax mix soluble in BLL?
thanks,
Stu

[rda72927]

rda72927, is the alcohol/carauba wax mix soluble in BLL?
thanks,
Stu

Yes. That's what started me working on carnauba to stay in a liquid form at room temp..

[stu1ritter]

rda72927, how much carnauba are you adding to a bottle of alox, or BLL, or what ever measure percentage you are using?

thanks

Stu

[stu1ritter]

Well, that worked. I dissolved 20 grams of pure carnauba flake into 250 ml of 99.5% anhydrous isopropyl alcohol. Did it outside on a hot plate. Seems I've gotten about 90% solubility from the carnauba I was using (bought years and years ago for a wood working project). It remained in solution down to room temperature. Added some small amount into my BLL and it went into solution. I'll play around with how much can go in.

Stu

[rda72927]

rda72927, how much carnauba are you adding to a bottle of alox, or BLL, or what ever measure percentage you are using?

thanks

Stu

I'm am trying 1/4 oz of carnauba (110 grains). It has blended in with both Naphtha and SCJ Floor wax, but had to still be warm when mixed with Alox. Wanted something that worked at room temp. I'm also adding 75 grains of Moly.

[aephilli822]

.... I'm also adding 75 grains of Moly.

Is the Moly staying in suspension? Or are you having to shake it before use?

[rda72927]

Is the Moly staying in suspension? Or are you having to shake it before use?

I believe so, but I have 2 50cal balls in my container, so I shake it anyway.