38-50 Remington Hepburn

[Boz330]

Anybody have any experience with this caliber with a fast twist barrel and heavy boolits, 350 and above?
A buddy has built one for his daughter and had severe leading with the first loads he tried. The question is whether to stay with lead-tin mix or try something harder such as WWs. He is basically trying not to re-invent the wheel if someone has any experience with this round.
The barrel is 14 twist and I assume he tried the samething he shoots in his
45-70 which is 25-1 lead tin.

Bob

[4060MAY]

Been shooting one for about 5 years, on a Hepburn
Shilen Barrel, 1-12 twist, RP cases.
depends on what bullet I shoot, as to the drill.
I had been using the 380gr NEI Gunn bullet, works ok but the Lyman mini postel don't remember the number, shoots better
best I have shot with this gun is 28/40 with no dongs
Barrel leads like crazy, the way I finally fixed it was 14-15bhn bullets wiping two patches between shots, 10% WSO/water, one soaking wet, one almost dry. Just about the time I figured this out I barreled my CPA with a GM 1-12, 38 barrel and a reamer designed by me. made by PTG, and a bullet mold my friend made for me.
The reason the Hepburn was leading so bad, the chamber had .3805 freebore, .400 long wiht a 3d incl throat, not a problem if you can get .381 bullet in the case and chamber them.
I tried reaming the case and the bullets cast at .379-380, and with the wiping most of the leading was manageable, never went completely away. but stayed accurate for 15-18 rnds.

So do a chamber cast and get a bullet to fit.

Soon as I can I'll download some pictures

[4060MAY]

Forgot, powder charge with the NEI bullet is 56gr CTG or 2F
The new one is a little different with 59gr 3F, 2groove bullet similar to a DT bullet
Poly wads, pistol primer, F150, or Wolf LP

[McLintock]

I've got one with a Green Mountain 1-14" twist barrel on a C. Sharps Hi Wall action; it was set up by John King and chambered with his reamer. I bought the barrel which had been set up by King for another C. Sharps, and got 100 rds of brass with it, some of which were loaded. One load was a 365 gr bullet (can't remember the maker) and the other was the Lyman 335 gr. I shot those and then loaded up my Brooks 330's and some Hock 315's, all 20-1, and shot some of them, with little to no leading from anything. I've just switched from veg wads to LDPE wads, and from CCI BR1 Primers to Federal Large Pistol Match, but haven't been able to get out and try them. On the Shiloh Sharps site there's a pretty good thread on loading the 38-50 by Dan Theodore, who's supposed to be "the" authority on the .38's. Pretty good piece if you're just starting out with the round like I was. I typed in 38-50 in the search engine on the site and found it. McLintock

[Boz330]

Been shooting one for about 5 years, on a Hepburn
Shilen Barrel, 1-12 twist, RP cases.
depends on what bullet I shoot, as to the drill.
I had been using the 380gr NEI Gunn bullet, works ok but the Lyman mini postel don't remember the number, shoots better
best I have shot with this gun is 28/40 with no dongs
Barrel leads like crazy, the way I finally fixed it was 14-15bhn bullets wiping two patches between shots, 10% WSO/water, one soaking wet, one almost dry. Just about the time I figured this out I barreled my CPA with a GM 1-12, 38 barrel and a reamer designed by me. made by PTG, and a bullet mold my friend made for me.
The reason the Hepburn was leading so bad, the chamber had .3805 freebore, .400 long wiht a 3d incl throat, not a problem if you can get .381 bullet in the case and chamber them.
I tried reaming the case and the bullets cast at .379-380, and with the wiping most of the leading was manageable, never went completely away. but stayed accurate for 15-18 rnds.

So do a chamber cast and get a bullet to fit.

Soon as I can I'll download some pictures

His reamer is the Steve Garbe designed by PTG, and he has a Steve Brooks mold 3 groove with a pretty long bore riding section. His big question was if he needed to go harder on the alloy or try and stay with the lead tin mix. Any and all help welcome. Thanks guys.

Bob

[4060MAY]

BOZ
Where exactly is the lead?
Did he do a chamber cast to have the mold made?
I fooled around thinking that the chamber was as specified.
When I cast it I found my problem. the freebore was too big for the bullets I had, and the leading was right at the end of the freebore as the throat started.

If the leading is closer to the end of the barrel, it is suppose to mean you have run out of lube, whatever that means.

I believe if the bullet fits, it won't lead the barrel, regardless of hardness.

[martinibelgian]

I can only agree with 4060 - in my 8mm guedes (76grs of powder behind a teeny bullet), I get absolutely no leading at all, whether with lino or with lead/tin. Accuracy is another issue (more a factor of bore cleaning between shots), but no leading at all...

[Boz330]

He bought the reamer and did his own machine work. The mold came off of E-bay. I have a Lyman 335gr mold for hin to try as well. It shoots great out of my 38-55 15 twist Badger barrel.
The leading was in the first couple inches in front of the chamber. Initial groups at 300 were fantastic but when he went back to try those again they shot terrible. That is when he discovered the leading. Apparently it was ironed in to the point that he is having trouble getting it out.
Gert,
Thats interesting since I have a 8X58R Swedish Roller that I was thinking about trying black in. I'm having really good luck with a 235gr boolit and 4759 so it will shoot, just wondering if it will with BP. What granulation are you using.

Bob

[martinibelgian]

Bob,
1 1/2Fg and Fg - but she does need to be thoroughly wiped between shots, maybe because I used a modern barrel with lands and grooves same width... You immediately notice when you didn't do it the right way. I do prefer the #2 Musket for serious target work, much more forgiving (except in the recoil department...).

[JeffinNZ]

I have a .38/303; .303 Brit blown out to .375 which is essentially the same thing. Unfortunately I a 1 - 18 twist barrel so can't spin much more than about 300gr. That not withstanding it shoots like a house on fire.

Shot yesterday and it put 4 rounds into an inch at 100m (TRUE). Sadly it threw one of the 5 rounds but I think that one of the bullets had a bad base and I was a bit generous when loading. Best it has ever shot (or should I say "best I have shot it"?)

I shoot 60gr Swiss 1.5Fg compressed 0.35 (YES, compressed) with a 0.030 card wad, WLR primer and 271gr CBE bullet in 20/1 alloy engaging. Velocity 1370fps. Blow tube between shots and I monitor the humidity of the day and regulate the amount of blows to the air moisture. IE: less humid, more blows.

If I ever get into to serious BPCR I would like a fast twist .38 barrel and push 350gr bullets so they hold up better waaaayyyyyyyyyy out there.

[Boz330]

BOZ
Where exactly is the lead?
Did he do a chamber cast to have the mold made?
I fooled around thinking that the chamber was as specified.
When I cast it I found my problem. the freebore was too big for the bullets I had, and the leading was right at the end of the freebore as the throat started.

If the leading is closer to the end of the barrel, it is suppose to mean you have run out of lube, whatever that means.

I believe if the bullet fits, it won't lead the barrel, regardless of hardness.

Here is what my buddy found.


I did a bit of measuring on the reamer and found the following: The leade section starts at .377" just bahead of the cartridge and extends out for approx. .100". It then starts a taper at what appears to be a 1/2 degree angle per side (1 deg included). This taper continues out some .500" and ends at a .368" diameter- just a wisker under the diameter of the movable pilot and land to land diameter.
My Brooks bullet casts @ .3775 with my alloy and I have been sizing it down to .376" which looks like wher the problem might be.
I think I'll lap out my sizing die to .377" and see if that helps. I have some room in the diameter of the case- might go to .3775" if rhere is room. (I have not tried neck tension yet.-been shooting as fire formed). The bore riding section is about .001 to ,0015" under the land to land dimension so I think that is about correct.
My 330 gr tapered lovern design will be just fat enough to hold .377" sizing also on the base end.
I'll try a session with my standard 20-1 alloy and if it still leads I'll try a bit harder. I have a feeling that wiping between shoots with this little guy is going to be needed.
I will get a bottle of the NAPA water souable oil and mix it in with my wiping solution. (That might help with my paper patch Gibbs also!)
Thanks the guys on the board- I'll report results when I get this idea loaded and shot.

Thanks,
Dick