455 Webley ammunition effectiveness in World Wars I and II?

[Naphtali]

As far as I can determine, the World War I and II edition of British 455 ammunition lists a 265-grain FMJ bullet @ 600 fps. Compared with any military version of 45 Colt or 45 ACP, this is anemic.

While 455 Webley military ammunition has a first-class reputation as self-defense against unclothed and scantily clothed primitive combatants in myriad colonial skirmishes and wars, how effective was the ammunition when self-defending against winter clad German soldiers in northwestern Europe? The Webley Mk. Vs and VIs may have been used for self-defense seldom during World War II. World War I was almost certainly a different bag of cats. Trench warfare placed a premium on close-quarters combat in defense AND attack. In the absence of sub-machineguns and, excluding the AEF, short-barreled shotguns, handguns were a valid choice. Was this ballistically challenged .45-caliber ammunition satisfactory for this sort of combat?

[Outpost75]

I interviewed CBI vets who served with Wingate's Chindits, and they said any .455 of any flavor, was far superior to the No.2 Enfield or Webley & Scott .38-200 revolvers. Their preference however was for the Colt M1911, if obtainable, whereas the GP Browning 9mm was acceptable because its 9mm Para SMG ammunition was more effective than the .380 Mk2z and ammunition was plentiful, magazine capacity being sufficient to shoot an enemy twice, origin of the phrase "Double Tap" (The "Jap!). The cadence in saying so in Morse being dididah, didah! (the prosign KA for "enemy killed by action", as contrasted by to KIA used for 'friendlies).

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It's going to be hard to find someone with personal experience. I'll just point out that when a cartridge or weapon fails, the Ross rifle for example, the condemnation and tales never end. I never heard about the .455 being less than satisfactory. True, it moves slowly, but carries a lot of lead.
The one story that I have both heard and read more than once was that Soviet soldiers in WW II would sleep or lay prone in the snow waiting in ambush and that their wet, heavy woolen overcoats would freeze solid and defeat the 9mm Luger round.

[Outpost75]

Many years ago, I participated in testing of Russian and Chicom Army overcoats, Soviet issue being four layers of boiled, felted wool, with oiled canvas shell weighing 16 pounds. Chicom being quilted kapok and mixed feather batting between two layers of oiled tent cavas, weighing 4 pounds, both of which had been saturated and then frozen before being draped over the goat.

Sorry to tell ya, but at typical 50-100 yard distance to repel human wave assaults, anything bigger than a .32 ACP zinged through the frozen overcoats and killed the goats. The BBQ was good too!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That must have been a memorable sight--a goat wave attack of frozen overcoated goats.
Well, like I said, it's a story, and a repeated story, but I wasn't there!

[Outpost75]

Ah yes, but I was at the BBQ when Marty Fackler was only a CPT!

[Bigslug]

I think if you're dealing with round-nose ammo, as most of this stuff was, you will see pretty much ZERO difference in terminal effectiveness between a Peacemaker, a Webley, and a 1911. All are a thousand feet per second or more short of any kind of meaningful hydrostatic tearing effect in human tissue, they don't displace, grab, or tear that tissue worth a damn, they've all got sufficient momentum to plow through at least one torso, and they're all within a couple thousandths of an inch of each other for diameter.

So I don't think the Webley sucks any more than any other handgun for solving CQB problems. If you punch it through something important, your adversary will succumb quickly. If you don't, he won't. I think the Brits understood this pretty well for the time and went with the lower recoil/functional accuracy combination as their best option.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Well, right now I have to admit that you've got me again. I can't recall who Marty Fackler is or was.

Were any of the goats blowing bugles, waving red banners, and bleating incomprehensible political slogans? Did you bayonet any of them?

Actually, one of my frozen overcoat story hearings was from several Eastern Front Wehrmacht vets when I was a young soldier stationed in Germany in the early '60s. Could be though that there was no penetration because they missed. Hard to shoot accurately when you're shivering. Could also have been the beer we were drinking.

And your test results would seem to answer the O.P.'s original question decisively. If anything larger than a .32 ACP would penetrate the overcoats then the .455 must have been effective on ordinary targets.

This is starting to get my goat.

[Outpost75]

BigSlug,I think you nailed it!

[Outpost75]

Well, right now I have to admit that you've got me again. I can't recall who Marty Fackler is or was.

Were any of the goats blowing bugles, waving red banners, and bleating incomprehensible political slogans? Did you bayonet any of them?

Actually, one of my frozen overcoat story hearings was from several Eastern Front Wehrmacht vets when I was a young soldier stationed in
Germany in the early '60s. Could be though that there was no penetration because they missed. Hard to shoot accurately when you're shivering.

And your test results would seem to answer the O.P.'s original question decisively. If anything larger than a .32 ACP would penetrate the overcoats then the .455 must have been effective on ordinary targets.

This is starting to get my goat.

Col. M.L. Fackler, Medical Corps, U.S. Army was Director of the Letterman Institute for the U.S. Army Institute of Pathology, widely published in the Journal of Trauma and other peer-reviewed, professional medical publications. When I first met him he was attached TDY to the Army Combat Systems Test Activity at Aberdeen Proving Ground, where I was a civilian consultant to the 11th MI Co.

I reported directly to Dr. Robert L. McCoy of the Ballistic Research Laboratory.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Ahhh...so! Thanks for the enlightenment and story. :)

[Bigslug]

Napthali, we've been discussing the relative merits of both the .455 and .38 Webleys in pretty intricate detail here. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?241578-Fun-with-a-Webley-Mark-IV-38-200-AKA-38-S-amp-W-AKA-380-Rimmed

Back to the current thread. . .



Actually, one of my frozen overcoat story hearings was from several Eastern Front Wehrmacht vets when I was a young soldier stationed in Germany in the early '60s. Could be though that there was no penetration because they missed. Hard to shoot accurately when you're shivering. . .

. . .And your (Outpost75's, post#4) test results would seem to answer the O.P.'s original question decisively. If anything larger than a .32 ACP would penetrate the overcoats then the .455 must have been effective on ordinary targets.

I think a lot of these frozen overcoat/unstopppable Moro type stories can be chalked up to the mindset of the shooters. . .

Consider that you've got young men with little world experience and active imaginations placed into an environment of days of seemingly unending boredom mixed with hours of unspeakable horror, in which they are often deprived of sleep, and pumped full of adrenaline. Then there's often issues of ego that cause them to blame their equipment for failings that in reality are theirs alone. There are also the usual tall tales and f*** with the new guy snipe hunt type stuff that go on in such environments, which cause all sorts of interesting fictions to get passed down.

Then we look at what the Brits actually DID - they went from a slow 265 grain .45 that penetrated great. . .but probably didn't do much else, to a slow 200 grain .36 that penetrated great. . . and probably didn't do much else.

The Brits had access to the reasoning behind the American choices that caused the U.S. to go from .45 Colt to .38 Colt to .45ACP. They also had a lot of feedback from guys who were shooting VERY large, VERY dangerous animals in the African and Indian colonies. In more modern times we have the FBI findings stating that if a bullet is placed well and penetrates to something important, diameter is a bonus, blood-loss-enhancing asset, but not the end-all, be-all of threat stopping. The Hague Convention issues of non-expansion versus those of LE hollowpoints are a little bit apples and oranges, but we are currently in a period where many L.E. agencies are transitioning BACK to 9mm from the .40 Scam & Whitewash. Fights stop faster when you shoot straight, and extra recoil is nobody's friend.

In looking at this 120-ish year period in total - where we were, where we went, and where we are currently going - I think the Brits had a clearer read on the necessities of the matter than most. The .455 MKII was about as effective as anything else they could fielded under the rules they had to play by, and was easy to shoot in terms of recoil, if not so much in terms of the MKVI being a large, heavy gun that takes some practice to master. Again, within the rules they had to play by, all they really gave up in going to the .38/200 was a tenth of an inch in diameter, but they "traded up" in that they got a lighter gun that was easier for the non-aficionado to shoot well.

But I am curious as to what - if any - field studies were done in WWI with regard to small-arms effectiveness. It was pretty much a machinegun, artillery, and gas game, and it's hard to C.S.I. the aftermath of a hand-to-hand engagement in a trench system that's still being disputed.

[Outpost75]

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA442169
https://archive.org/stream/TheArmedForcesInstituteOfPathology-ItsFirstCentury/ArmedForcesInstituteOfPathologyItsFirstCentury-Henry_djvu.txt

[tazman]

Der Gebirgsjager--- I found your name interesting and took time to look it up. I found that the military organization that used that name had a long and interesting history. They were honored both by their home country and by their neighboring countries for the service they rendered. An honorable tradition.
From things you have said, I assume you were there at one time.
The mountain hunters indeed

[USSR]

If anyone wants to try the "frozen coat" stopping bullets trick, I will gladly sell you a set of genuine Soviet Issue telogreika and sharovary (padded coat and pants as worn by the Red Army and ChiComs). Please invite me to the new Barbeque.

Don

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Mr. Tazman, I have no secrets. My paternal grandmother and father emigrated from Germany in 1923 after WWI in which her husband/his father served in the Kaiser's army. Upon reaching age 18 my father served in the US Army's 3rd Division, which had become the 3rd Infantry Division by the time I reached age 18 and also served in it. However, he was in the Field Artillery and I was and Infantryman. They came to America the traditional way, via Ellis Island. I was born here, and no doubt in a few more years will die here. I adopted the name "Der Gebirsjager" because it has a dual meaning. As your research has no doubt found out, the Gebirgsjager are German and Austrian soldiers trained in mountain warfare. The military meaning of the name originated with the jagers of the German mountains, hunters who were among the first to use rifled barrels when everyone else was using smooth bores, and consequently were known for their accurate shooting. The second meaning is a literal translation which is "The Mountain Hunter." As I grew up on my father's cattle ranch in the Sierra Nevadas and received my first rifle at the age of 12, I became proficient at deer hunting, developed a love of firearms and shooting which persists until today. So, when I went into the gunsmithing/sales business and needed a business name, Der Gebirgsjager seemed to fit in view of all of the preceding information. My wife, usually right, urged me to not use the name saying that no one could pronounce or spell it, and that something along the lines of "The Silver Possum Gun Shop" would be more appropriate. However, since George Jones was already known as "The Possum" I decided to go with Der Gebirgsjager. No one could pronounce it or spell it. But I used it for 30 years, and it's kind of become a part of me, and me a part of it. The symbol of the Gebirgsjager soldiers is the edelweiss flower, which grows high in the mountains near the snow line. There is a saying that only the best soldiers will climb the mountains high enough to obtain an edelweiss to wear in their hat. There's the story, and thanks for your interest. I tell it partially in payback for the time you enlightened me on what you are photographed to be holding in your avatar, a story I enjoyed greatly. I guess we all have a story.

Please, God, Bless America.

[Windwalker 45acp]

Mr. Tazman, I have no secrets. My paternal grandmother and father emigrated from Germany in 1923 after WWI in which her husband/his father served in the Kaiser's army. Upon reaching age 18 my father served in the US Army's 3rd Division, which had become the 3rd Infantry Division by the time I reached age 18 and also served in it. However, he was in the Field Artillery and I was and Infantryman. They came to America the traditional way, via Ellis Island. I was born here, and no doubt in a few more years will die here. I adopted the name "Der Gebirsjager" because it has a dual meaning. As your research has no doubt found out, the Gebirgsjager are German and Austrian soldiers trained in mountain warfare. The military meaning of the name originated with the jagers of the German mountains, hunters who were among the first to use rifled barrels when everyone else was using smooth bores, and consequently were known for their accurate shooting. The second meaning is a literal translation which is "The Mountain Hunter." As I grew up on my father's cattle ranch in the Sierra Nevadas and received my first rifle at the age of 12, I became proficient at deer hunting, developed a love of firearms and shooting which persists until today. So, when I went into the gunsmithing/sales business and needed a business name, Der Gebirgsjager seemed to fit in view of all of the preceding information. My wife, usually right, urged me to not use the name saying that no one could pronounce or spell it, and that something along the lines of "The Silver Possum Gun Shop" would be more appropriate. However, since George Jones was already known as "The Possum" I decided to go with Der Gebirgsjager. No one could pronounce it or spell it. But I used it for 30 years, and it's kind of become a part of me, and me a part of it. The symbol of the Gebirgsjager soldiers is the edelweiss flower, which grows high in the mountains near the snow line. There is a saying that only the best soldiers will climb the mountains high enough to obtain an edelweiss to wear in their hat. There's the story, and thanks for your interest. I tell it partially in payback for the time you enlightened me on what you are photographed to be holding in your avatar, a story I enjoyed greatly. I guess we all have a story.

Please, God, Bless America.

In the series, Band of Brothers, they mention the edelweiss and how the elite soldiers would climb the mountain to prove their prowess... it's nice to hear it confirmed by someone in the know.

This is a great thread, learned much. Thanks to all.