6.5 x 53r Dutch........dies?

[3006guns]

I have both a carbine and rifle, both original Dutch military. Bores are shootable if not perfect, and I have several clips and brass made from 303 Brit. Now.......dies. Before I shell out a fair amount of money for "proper" dies are there any other caliber dies that I can use for just neck sizing and seating? I have 6.5 Japanese and 6.5 Swede dies in the stable presently.

[OptimusPanda]

Staring at the cartridge dimensions on Wikipedia shows the shoulder and base diameter to be larger on the swede than the Dutch, so it ought to go into the die, while the shoulder on the 6.5 jap is smaller.

[JCherry]

3006guns,

Another option to be aware of is that 6.5mm Mannlicher Schoenauer is identical to 6.5 Dutch except the MS is rimless. I use a set of 6.5 MS dies to form 303 Brit into 6.5 Dutch.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[3006guns]

I just neck sized 46 cases using the Swedish dies and it gets a little more than halfway down the neck before the die bottoms out on the shell holder. It'll hold a boolit, so good enough for now.

I got both these guns from an old friend that passed away and now that I think about it I remember some dies in a box, now stored in the garage. Better take a look tonight. If there's any 6.5 MS dies........and I think there are........I'm in business.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The two 65mm. Mannlicher rounds may not be exactly the same. Cartridge books regularly parrot mistakes from one another, so I don't know for sure about the 6.5x54R, which Barnes says has a .297in. neck, while the 6.5x54 has .287in. You could make this work, with the right expander button, and it should be fine for forming cases. But I wouldn't want to go through that cycle over and over again with cases I wanted to last.

My Load from a Disk program database, however, makes them .287 and .295in. respectively. I don't have any loaded ammunition at the moment for my 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, but a new and unsized Norma case measures .287in.

For neck sizing alone you would probably be fine with the much commoner 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. But those dies are too wide in the shoulder for case-forming or body sizing for most 6.5x53R rifles.

[Wayne Smith]

Call CH4D - Dave probably has them on the shelf.

[3006guns]

Call CH4D - Dave probably has them on the shelf.

I just checked the price of RCBS dies.....ouch.......I will call CH4D tomorrow. Thanks for the tip!

Footnote: I didn't find any 6.5 MS dies in my pile of stuff, but I DID find an unmarked, very strange die with a machined collar instead of a locking ring and no decapping stem or expander. Well, what the hey right? It seemed to fit the already converted 303 case, so I lubed the case and pushed it through. I mean pushed......my Rock Chucker needed every bit of its compound leverage.

Out came the strangest case I've ever seen, with a neck twice as long as needed even though all other dimensions were good. That die just went on the "what's this" shelf and again, I'll call CH4D tomorrow.....

[Frank46]

Might be the form die the original owner used with some spacers between the die and the die hole in the press. Frank

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It might indeed, but the question has to be why, in that case, it took so much effort with a usable formed case. It might have been intended to size down the solid head of the .303 case by the nominal .003in. or so by which it is larger than the 6.5x53R. I know this isn't in practice necessary for most rifles, but there is always the possibility of one at the low end of chamber tolerances for which the diemaker had to cater.

You wouldn't have been able to complete the head sizing if the case was in a conventional shellholder. If you do make use of it, I would rather form these cases with a flat piece of metal on top of the Rockchucker ram, and tap them out with a brass rod. You would only have to do this once per case, and there is a chance that the shellholder would tear through the rim.

I've found Dave Davison of CH4D very helpful on a project or two, and there is every likelihood that he will recognize what you have from your description.

[Frank46]

Maybe was the die intended for use in a vise?. But since the OP mentioned screwing it in a press that rules that one out. Frank

[EDG]

There are several ways to do this. You might post/move this question in the case forming forum.

The 6.5X53R Dutch round is very close to the 6.5X54 Mannlicher Schoenauer round but not exactly the same. The Dutch round has a larger radius at the corner of the shoulder and the corner of the neck. It also has a large radius cut on the case head leaving it with a slight dome. I believe this dome improves feeding through the clips. I use .303 cases without adding machining this radius.

The Dutch round is about .005 larger in the head at about .450" dia. To use MS or Carcano dies you need to polish out the rear half of the sizer die about .003 to .005.
If you understand how to set the shoulder with the Carcano dies, a Lee 6.5 Carcano die set is probably the least expensive set to modify. RCBS dies are very good and will require the least amount of polishing. An older set of Bonanza 6.5X54 dies is probably the best die set if you like the BR type seater. The FL die needs polishing out of the base but the seater will work as is.
Use care to set the shoulder location properly with either set of dies.
Due to the large head I cannot recommend the use of .303 PPU brass. The PPU brass normally measures .455 diameter across the head which is larger than the rear of the 6.5X53R Dutch chambers.

Instead use US made brass of your own choosing. They all seem to have a .450 head diameter which will just barely fit the Dutch chambers. Those are Federal, Winchester, Remington and Hornady. Do not use once fired .303 Brit brass for shooting brass. Once fired is ok for setting up the process but do not shoot it.

I use the following process to form brass.

1. Inspect the brass carefully. Any dented or out of round case mouths have to be rounded up or corrected so they do not fold. Round them up with an .308 or .312 expander ball. Any dented case shoulders or bodies will crease when formed. Start only with new perfect brass. NO once fired and NO dented cases.
2. Lightly lube the necks and push the shoulder back using a die with a .315 to .320 neck diameter.
I use a RCBS 7.35 Carcano FL die because it controls shoulder bulging. A .308 die will also do this unless you use one of the short body Lee dies.
3. Next push the shoulder back with a die having about a .300 to .305 neck inside diameter. For this I have a 6.5 Carcano file trim die. You could use a
7mm-08 FL die also.
4. Next I use a 6.5X53R Dutch file trim die with a .290 neck diameter. (The 6.5X53R file trim die will actually permit the round to chamber but the neck is still over size.) If you do not have this die you might cut off a RCBS 6.5X55 TRIM die. I used a 250 Savage trim die (.284) which will only work for the first forming with the smaller .303 shoulder. (The RCBS .250 trim die is .010 larger than a RCBS .250 Savage FL die.)
5. Next I use a 6.5X53R FL die by RCBS. You can use a polished out 6.5X54 or 6.5X52 Carcano FL die. If I am only interested in neck sizing I size only the neck with a 6.5X55 die.

Pick your own place in the process to cut the extra long neck off. I usually do it after die #4.

I have measured the chambers in 4 different Dutch barrels. They are about 2.150" maximum which is longer than the trim length by .040. Standard trim recommendation is 2.110 (= 53.6mm).
The following is NOT recommended practice. Since the .303 case is a little skinnier than the 6.5 Dutch it will shorten slightly when fire formed.
For the first firing I trim my brass to 2.148 to 2.149. This is practically touching the step at the end of the chamber. Most fired cases come out at 2.145 but they vary a little. Once I resize them, I trim all to 2.145 and use them at that length. Due to variations in how the body is formed the case will get about .005 shorter when fired. The Lee-Enfield case shape is a good bit skinnier than a 6.5X53R.
I have made small batches of cases using this method with Federal, Remington and Winchester cases. Though most were once fired in .303 Lee-Enfield rifle I have to discourage you from using the once fired brass. US made brass fired in Lee-Enfields is permanently damaged. Don't use it, the cases are stretched at the web and could separate. Making the 6.5X53R brass is too much work to waste on used brass. Always start with new brass.
Used cases can serve a very useful purpose though. Use once fired brass to set up and perfect your processes. Once you can yield 100% good cases with each small lot switch over to your new brass for your actual shooting cases. BTW don't bother with .30-40 Krag brass. The rim is too large and you might break your extractor unless you cut the rims to the same size as the .303 brass.

[3006guns]

Excellent post and information EDG........I actually printed a copy and put it in my reloading notes. Thanks everyone!