45/70 H4198 and heavy boolits?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hello all.

Does anyone have a source for data for a 500 and a 535 grain boolit?
I recently squired a sharps and the last owner left me with 50 each of those boolits.

I have some H4198 which I really like with a 405. I was hoping for some data with the heavier boolits. The heaviest Hodgdon lists online is for a 485 grain.

I see plenty of data for the IMR4198 but I don't have any of that.

I would like to stick to the H4198 because from my little testing with it I noticed that the recoil was much lower than bullets loaded at very close velocities with Varget.

Unless someone can suggest another more popular powder for the task that has similar recoil. I'm not opposed to the recoil either. I was just happy that this powder can run from very mild to very wild and was hoping it could fit the heavy bullets.

Thanks everyone!

[NSB]

I think you're going to find that those that shoot the heavier bullets (450g and up) use black powder. Hodgdon lists loads with IMR4198 and H4198, but only up to 400g bullets. If you're reloading, you absolutely need a Lyman 49th edition reloading manual. I'm always surprised that anyone who reloads doesn't have this book. It lists loads for the 45-70 with both cast and jacketed that go up to 500g. The data is for IMR4198, but a call to Hodgdon will allow you to speak to someone who can advise you on what to do with H4198. Hodgdon controls both powders at this time and will advise you on what you can do to try using the IMR or the H 4198. I use both myself and both work equally well for accuracy. Good luck.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thank you. I was thinking a call to Hodgdon might help out.
I do have the Lyman 49th but there is no data for H4198. Seems they skipped over that powder when they did the testing.

[NSB]

That's why I called them. I got a satisfactory answer and use both powders. I'm just reluctant to share these things on line. It's your gun and your safety. It's important to know what type of gun you're using these loads in. A trapdoor is not forgiving at all and sholdn't use anything but "book" loads with caution depending on the age and gun. Marlin/Win guns are quite a bit stronger and the Ruger #1 stronger yet. Keep that in mind.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Scratch that.
The gentleman who answered the call said he cannot give me data because they do not work with bullets that heavy. said boolits do not fit the SAAMI specs so they don't work up and data for that.
Guess I'm looking to try some new powders.

Any suggestions for similar performance and powder burn rate? Of course I'll check my manuals to get data. Just looking for personal experiences here.

[NSB]

Is your gun a single shot? If so, go over to ASSRA.com (American Single Shot Rifle Association) and ask over there. That's what they do and lots of those guys shoot the really heavy stuff. I know someone over there can help with this. Good luck.

[dubber123]

I really like H-4198 also. I believe I have some loads worked up for 520-540 grain boolits, but they are in my 1895 Cowboy. I will peek at my load book in a bit. I was loading quite hot, but have tuned them back to the 1,400 fps range.

[John Boy]

Michael - some reading material for you:
* http://reloadammo.com/4570load.htm
* http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html
* http://www.sageoutfitters.com/45caliber-cast-bullets.html
* http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Edition-Reloading-Handbook-9816049/dp/B001FBFW6U

[waco]

The only time I tried 500gr boolits in my Marlin I just filled the case to the bottom of the boolit with IMR4350

You can't put too much in to cause pressure issues.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

why do you need such heavy bullets,i think anything over around 420gr will cause your rifle to wear faster, besides 405gr is really all you need. I have a 1895 with a 22 inch bbl and I only load 405's,if that's what you really want then I don't want to discourage you, far from it. I just have faith in the 405s to kill anything in north America, now if you are planning a trip to Africa please don't skip the details, also imr4198 is my go to favorite powder for the 45-70.good luck and stay safe! have fun too!, Travis

[MT Chambers]

4198 is on the "fast side" for those heavier bullets, you have to use less of it in the large case and can cause some problems with inconsistent ignition. I use slightly slower powders for the heavy bullets, ie: H-322, 3031, varget, 4895, H-335.

[Michael J. Spangler]

why do you need such heavy bullets,i think anything over around 420gr will cause your rifle to wear faster, besides 405gr is really all you need. I have a 1895 with a 22 inch bbl and I only load 405's,if that's what you really want then I don't want to discourage you, far from it. I just have faith in the 405s to kill anything in north America, now if you are planning a trip to Africa please don't skip the details, also imr4198 is my go to favorite powder for the 45-70.good luck and stay safe! have fun too!, Travis

Good point on the weight. I just liked the idea of pitching some heavy bullets that were too big for my 1895. I have 50 each of 500 and 535 that I wanted to mess with.
I'm pretty happy with the 405s all around though.


4198 is on the "fast side" for those heavier bullets, you have to use less of it in the large case and can cause some problems with inconsistent ignition. I use slightly slower powders for the heavy bullets, ie: H-322, 3031, varget, 4895, H-335.
Yeah I guess I need to just mess with whatever works for the heavy weights and get some more H4198 for the 405s.

[Whiterabbit]

I use 4198 in my 460 S&W for bullets when I want something slower than H110. I use it for bullet weights from 370 up to 740 grains. I can't think of one reason it wouldn't be great for 500-540 in a 45/70. Afterall, the 460 is like a baby 45/70, with 75% case waterweight.

As for IMR vs H4198, I pretty much ony use IMR< but I have qualified H. They aren't perfectly interchangable, but they are pretty doggone close. I'd bet that after re-development you'd end up at the same charge weight and never see the difference (this is what happened to me). However, if you want to play it safe (and no reason not to) back off one grain and re-work up and you'll be fine.

If you see loads in IMR, just drop a grain and use H the work back up to the loads. I bet you find they are the same.

[SSGOldfart]

Tons of information out there on 45/70 loads,Ken Waters has about a chapter in his pet loads book,and handloader magazines march1974and may1974,both by Ken Waters also.I think we are going to need more information before anyone can help with load data, type of gun,and how old is it?I'm going to ask why not black powder,do you plan to Paper patch?? What lube do you plan to use? Well I hope you get the idea.

[JimP.]

i routinely shoot 500-520 gr cast leadbullets in my 45-70's. i load them with RL-7 or AA 5744. I shoot them in my Handi rifle, Pedersoli 1873 Sringfield Infantry rifle and my Rem RollingBlock. I load the Oregon Trails 350 RNFP bullet using AA 5744 with puff-lon filler for my H&R 1873 Springfield SRC. I also load the 350 gr RNFP Oregon Trails bullet with AA 5744 and no filler in the 45-75 for my Cimerron 1876 Winchester Centennial rifle. All are good loads that i shoot and the velocities are between 1200 and 1400 fps depending on the rifle. Love the big 500 gr bullets for my 450 Marlin Handi rifle also using AA 5744. All the loads are in the Lyman loading manual.