Having problems with a thin lead-like coating in the bore that I can't remove

[Andy]

** Updated with pics in 4th post down

I am just starting load development for a .308 win lever (savage 99, 1-12 rifling) and my second batch of loads seems to have caused a very thin coating of what looks to be lead in the bore that is unlike anything I have dealt with before (only have loaded for a few guns though).

It looks like the "lead wash" look that I have seen in my .45 acp that cleans off with a normal brush stroke or two, or maybe just a patch. However, in the .308 this is predominantly on the lands of the rifling for some reason and will not come off no matter what I do.

When I experienced severe leading in my 9mm the worst I ever had to do was 20 strokes with chore boy strands on a brush and it all came out.

With this situation, I have done about 8 cycles of the following:
Solvent patch (shooter's choice + kroil)
Dry patch
Wet brush with chore boy strands on it, of shooter's choice lead remover 10-15 times
let set 15 minutes
brush 3-5 strokes
2 Dry patches come out dirty (dark grey) then the rest are clean

When I look down the barrel with a bore-light it looks shiny/spotless, but when I look at the end of the muzzle rifling with a flashlight I can clearly see grey on all the lands, and can see where it is not grey on tiny small portions of each land.

Other info if it helps diagnose the issue:
This showed up after shooting 50 loads with 4895, I checked for leading every 5 rounds as I worked up a ladder from 1950-2250 fps in 1 gr/10rd increments but disregarded this as I thought it was just that "lead wash" look and not something concerning. Accuracy was very poor throughout the test though. Had some evidence of lube star until the last 10 rounds. I'm using .311 sized bullets cast of COWW+2%tin, nra 50/50 lube, gas checked out of lyman 311041 (174 gr fp). Bore slugged 3.09-3.095. Rifle is used, new to me and I removed all jacketed fouling from the bore (very minor) with sweet's copper remover before firing, barrel looked beautiful before this.

Any ideas on what is going on? I feel like I electroplated metal onto the lands and have only got 1% of it off (if any) with 100+ brush strokes. This grey coating is so thin that you can't ever see a third dimension to it, any chance I'm mistaking some other barrel phenomenon for leading? It is possible this gun had very few rounds through it before I owned it, but I have no way of knowing that. It appears to have been carried a lot.

[bangerjim]

Probably a form of antimonial wash.......not lead. Back off on the Sn a bit and try some. Sn can combine with Sb to form "stuff" that can do that under the right conditions. You may just have "those conditions" here. Thoughts from others out there?

Try it.......no harm no foul.

banger

[Yodogsandman]

I think you shot at velocities that were too fast for your alloy and hardness. Also, may have surpassed the useful lubricity of NRA 50/50 lube. Try oven heat treating your boolits and tumble lubing with Ben's Liquid Lube. Use BLL alone with 3 coats or as a one coat, overcoat with your 50/50 lube.

I'd try shooting some more to see how it goes. It might just be akin to bore "seasoning". I used to clean the bore out all the time but, have learned to only clean once and a while with cast, now. You could just shoot a few jacketed bullets through it. Then clean the copper fouling out after, again.

[44man]

Not a big problem if the gun still shoots. I don't look in my barrels anymore and go 3 to 5 years without a cleaning. Yeah, I see it. Antimony wash? Wish I knew but I don't care.

[Andy]

Here are some photos in case they help, took a lot of attempts to get these to come out clearly.

Accuracy has been very poor but I don't know if it is the load or something else, going to shoot some factory ammo today as a control group.

163199163200

The first photo has a bright speck or two that you might think are lead spots/shavings but it is just an odd reflection off some cleaning solvent still in the bore.

[Hickok]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?199918-311041-in-a-308&p=2221052&viewfull=1#post2221052 Larry Gibson Post #4 is very good. He is a very knowledgeable caster. You never told us what you are sizing your boolit at. Your bore, you should size to a minimum of .310", but .311" may be better if the cartridge will chamber.

You might want to try for the 1900-2000 fps range for accuracy. Not telling anyone to use a dacron filler in their loads, but it helps my .308 loads with Imr 4895 and cast boolits. Use a filler at your own discretion, as there is a lot on controversy as to it's use.

I believe you have an antimony wash, not leading. Also, does the muzzle of your rifle have a ding/dent at about 1 o'clock?

[Tatume]

Air cooled wheel weight metal with 1 - 2% added tin shoots well in my rifles from 1800 - 2250 fps, and I usually use 4895. I use and recommend LBT Blue Soft lube. However, I doubt that your lube or your alloy is causing inaccuracy in your rifle, though I don't know what to suggest in the alternative. You're probably going to have to try other combinations. Has the gun produced acceptable accuracy with other ammo, especially jacketed?

[merlin101]

Also, does the muzzle of your rifle have a ding/dent at about 1 o'clock?

Good eye Hickok, I was so busy looking in the bore I never even saw the crown!
Sure does look like a ding.

[fast ronnie]

If that bright spot that is about one o'clock on the muzzle and not just a glare from lighting, that is probably your accuracy issue. If it is a ding, you will need to have the barrel crown re-cut. You will not have acceptable accuracy otherwise, no matter what else you do.

[Andy]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I'm sizing to .311. In my reading on the "antimony wash" thread on this forum a person who had done some testing commented that antimony wash comes out with a few brush strokes and tin wash can be harder to remove.

My main concern is that this substance is not coming out with my normal lead removal methods, even multiplied by 10x what I had to do to get 9mm leading out, so it doesn't seem like normal leading in my opinion.

I see what you guys are talking about in the photos at 1 o'clock, it really does look like a damaged crown in the pictures but it is just a discolored but unchanged area (looks almost like a sharpie mark) in real life.

Previous to this session the gun shot a 15 shot group with this 311041 bullet and a light load of unique into a 1"x1.5" hole at 50 yards, so I think my accuracy issues are not due to the gun itself and more likely due to this current bore issue.

Current load development and accuracy aside, my main intent with this thread is to identify what this substance is and learn how to remove it. I spent the better part of yesterday scrubbing it and let it soak overnight and still can't get it out today.

[Yodogsandman]

Any chance that you didn't get all the copper out of the barrel before shooting cast? That might cause the copper trace to be tinned by the boolit passing by. This would be made worse by higher velocities.

What was your alloy? How long did you allow it to age harden? Were your velocities chronographed?

[243winxb]

Go to a harder alloy/more antimony. Reduce velocity. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/AlloyBlending1.jpg

[runfiverun]

antimonial wash.

if the crown is as bad as it looks in that picture ain't nuthin gonna shoot well in that rifle.

[243winxb]

On the lands, no problem. Down in the grooves a big problem. Harder and slower, as i said above.

[upnorthwis]

Try to find someone to loan you an Outer's Foul-Out. They've never fail me. Had a barrel that was so leaded that steel wool wouldn't touch it. Also, are you using a gas check?

[Andy]

Thanks for the continued input everyone. I'll try to answer questions in order:

- Velocity and alloy data is in the original post, it has only been about a week since casting these bullets. I did remove the copper w/sweet's copper remover before this.

Crown is not damaged, see post #10 for explanation of photo.

Bullets are gas checked.

I shot 5 jacketed surplus bullets into 1-1/4" @ 50 yards today to eliminate any chance of it being an issue with the rifle, scope or me.

If this is antimony wash, how do I get it out? Does it affect accuracy or can it be ignored?

**My focus with the thread is not really to figure out what to do with a load/lube/alloy, rather I am trying to remove this coating in the bore before proceeding with load development. I know I probably went too fast for my alloy/lube and won't do that again, but before I can do anything I have to get this coating out or decide to proceed with development while leaving it in the bore, what do you guys think I should do in regards to that?**

Here is a thread on antimony wash: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?175260-What-exactly-is-quot-Antimony-wash-quot

In post #5 of that geargnasher says the following: "Antimony wash will 90% wipe out with one pass of a dry patch, the rest will come out with a light brushing. Lead and tin deposits are much more difficult to remove."

There is much more data on it if you read through that thread, but I am stuck in that nothing I do will get it out, I'm not even affecting 1% of the visible "leaded" area with 100 brush strokes, so I think something abnormal is happening here.

[243winxb]

Tubb Final Finish Bore Lapping System 308 Caliber and 7.62mm http://www.midwayusa.com/product/513887/tubb-final-finish-bore-lapping-system-308-caliber-and-762mm

[Yodogsandman]

Did your unknown fouling come out when you shot the surplus ammo?

FWIW, I normally wait 3 weeks (21 days) before shooting any air cooled boolits, so they can age harden.

[rodsvet]

I second the Foul Out. Too bad they quit selling it! Rod

[Andy]

Yodog, unfortunately shooting the jacketed bullets did not remove this lead-like coating, or help me get any further when I cleaned it after. Thanks for the tip on the age hardening, I knew of the concept but didn't know it was so fast so I will look into that more.

After shooting the jacketed I came home and cleaned the rifle and then loaded up 9 test rounds of a 10.5gr load of unique. The load that had previously done well was 10 grains and 10.5 is what the lee dipper put out so I went with that to try to establish a control group.

I shot a fouling shot and then two 4 round groups off bags at 50 yards. Both groups were less than 3/8" center to center, so apparently this coating in the barrel is not affecting accuracy, at least not at low velocity with unique. I didn't bring the chrono, but these should have been about 1350 fps according to the book. Bullets were identical in all aspects to everything else I've been doing with this.

I guess my next step will be to see if I can keep working up a load without getting this coating out. It doesn't feel right to leave it there but it isn't increasing and I suppose there isn't much harm in continuing carefully until the accuracy drops off or genuine leading develops. It has been easy so far today to clean right back to this level of coating after each firing. Anyone ever personally experience this before, and just leave it in the bore and have no issues?

[Dan Cash]

Try turpentine and a tight patch or locate some Montana Extreme "Cowboy Blend" solvent with a tight patch. Turp is great, Montana Supreme is incredible for lead and lead like removal. As others have said, your wash is antimoney.

[Andy]

Thanks for the recommendations on cleaning methods, I will try out the ones I have access to and write back here if I have success with it. I did shoot another 40 loads today, gc low velocity, and accuracy is where it should be (1-1.5" at 50 yards) and the coating did not increase and I was able to clean right back down to it easily. So, if I can't get it out I guess I can live with it being there if the gun keeps shooting ok.

For what it is worth my accuracy issues from before were almost certainly due to lack of neck tension (and the resulting crimp I had to put on to hold the bullets against finger pressure) due to overexpanding with the M die I just started using with this. I got everything set up correctly starting with the unique loads from post #20 and my accuracy has been what you would expect since then. I replicated my same 4895 loads from the first day, changing only the neck tension issue (and not doing a crimp at all) and now the groups are fine.

So, as many people said would be true, this wash in the barrel doesn't seem to be affecting accuracy and if it doesn't come out I may just disregard it other than to keep it under observation.

[gwpercle]

J-B Bore Cleaning Compound has been my go to in situations like this. Rescued two military barrels that looked like old sewer pipes.
Also try a better lube for higher velocities, the old 50/50 NRA stuff is good for slower velocities but there are better lubes out there now.
Gary

[44man]

I never figured out barrel smoothness. I have always believed a bore can be too smooth.
Back in my ML competition days my rifle would not do as good. Bill Large said the bore will "shoot smooth" from patches. Old timers etched the bores by filling with urine over night. I used vinegar but found Scotch Brite did OK too.
My 6.5 Swede will do 1/2" or under all day at 100 and the bore is pitted but I never had a cast boolit to try and need to make a mold.
My revolvers all have the wash and I go 2 to 3 years without a patch down the bores. I do keep the cylinders clean and put new STP on the pins and ratchets. I think one revolver has gone 5 years and no accuracy loss.
Does cast benefit from friction?
Actual leading is a different story and needs to be cured.
Lube is also important and I use Felix in rifles to the .308 and 30-06 and also my 30-30.
I did try Ben's Red in revolvers and feel it is too slippery but it worked fine in a rifle. Someday I will add some lanolin to Ben's. Lanolin adds the "sticky."
There are only a few commercial lubes that have worked for me, LBT Magnum lube, Soft Blue and CR worked. CR is a little hard but shoots well indeed. Glen made the best BPCR lube ever but can't buy ingredients anymore.
I have hated Alox from day one though.

[Andy]

Well after another session of 25 (all GC bullets under 2000 fps), when I did normal cleaning (3-5 brush passes, 4-8 tight patches) the coating seemed to be mostly gone. All I can guess is the gas checks were scraping a little bit of it off at a time, and when I wasn't going too fast to create new issues enough of those gas checks going through finally got most of it out. This is just speculation on my part as I don't know for sure why it is gone now, but shooting more GC bullets is the only thing I did differently than before. Brushing/swabbing definitely had no impact on it, on their own before.

I will definitely be trying out some 2500 lube I was just given vs the 50/50. I knew that probably wouldn't get me too high but wanted to start with it since it was in the sizer.

Thank you for all the help and ideas, I hope this thread helps other people who see this same thing in their barrels and I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out. If I have further issues with this load (unless it relates to this coating) I will start another thread so as to keep this one on the topic of the coating only.

Thanks again,
Andy

[runfiverun]

antimony dendrites will scrape the barrel clean even though it leaves a little bit behind too.
once you get things going normal just leave the barrel alone, it will build up a layer of lube in about 7-8 shots and then should normalize.
cleaning it all out just makes you have to put it all back in again.

[OS OK]

Just out of curiosity…might I ask you if you 'ever' tried to shoot a PC round in that rifle?

This is not a suggestion nor advise…just asking...because we just had the exact same deposits in a never shot carbine…new out of the box…the only rounds it ever chambered were PC'd .45 ACP 200 grain SWC's @ 900 FPS topped off with High Gloss Clear PC. Only thing was that they were cured without knowing that the cheap Chinese oven was cooking at 125 degrees less than the 400 degrees on the dial. They looked dandy and passed the hammer test too and they were improperly cured.

We got the same 'untouchable' antimonial looking micro-thin and unscratchable coating on the lands and grooves…exact same color in both ends of the rifling and right down the middle. Same results on cleaning and rifle accuracy…it's questionable?

Hope you pardon the intrusion here and have time to comment…OS OK