who uses dacron fillers

[duke76]

I can about bet how this thread is going to turn out as I did a search and found about a million replies about 50% for and 50% against. I asked this question on another board a while back and it turned out about the same, I want to hear mainly from the guys who shoot bpcr with smokeless, I am planning on shooting around 25 grains of 5744 in a 45-70. and if I do decide to use a filler I am going to use dacron (I know make sure you dont leave any air space between the bullet and the powder) I have heard some horror stories from cornmeal turning hard and turning into slug, that is why if I do decide to use a filler to stick with dacron(less probabilities for problems) Is 5744 case sensitive, I have heard both ways, Do I need a filler with it, So, lets hear what you guys have to say about fillers, mainly dacron but open to hear from all, Thanks Todd

[jhrosier]

I have used dacron as a filler in the .375H&H.
I am loading about 1/3 of a case of 4198.
The accuracy improved a lot with the dacron.

In my 45-70, it didn't seem to make much difference with 3031.

Jack

[beemer]

In my 45-70 Marlin I use 27 gr. 5744 and the Lyman 457643 and 7 tenths of a grain dacron filler. I have tried the load with and without the filler. It changed POI depending on powder position. The load with the dacron was more accurate.

beemer

[Boz330]

First of all are you talking a filler as in filling the case to the base of the boolit or just a wad to hold the powder in place. In a straight wall case I don't think the COW is a problem, but I haven't tried it. I use Kapok for a filler as in filling the case. I've used it in straight walled cases and in bottleneck cases with no problem. Sometimes it improves accuracy, sometimes not. Each gun is an entity to itself. I've even used it with BP in order to reduce case capacity when I wasn't into the pain.

Bob

[montana_charlie]

I am going to use dacron (I know make sure you dont leave any air space between the bullet and the powder)
I obey the 'no airspace law', but I consider it to be a law that applies to Black Powder. I have never fired a smokeless round that wouldn't let the propellant slosh around in the case.

But, I have also never fired a BPCR round with smokeless powder in it.

From reading (not doing) I think the dacron tuft is just a little 'lid' inside the case...that keeps the powder near the primer. Because it is just a fluffy little barrier (not an solid 'wad') it doesn't act like a second projectile in the line of fire.

Inserting it gently (and not packing it down) seems to be what prevents it from becoming that chamber-ringing 'obstruction' that you want to avoid.

Becausae of that chamber-ringing possibility, I'll stay away from smokeless loads in anything bigger than 45/70. But I think the 'no airspace law' is a BP thing...
CM

[martinibelgian]

And even that no airspace with BP thing is a myth - I regularily shoot 577-450 with air as only filler, no problems whatsoever. Assuming you have enough powder (my self-imposed minimum is about 70% of available space), and the right granulation, there just isn't any issue - just like the no petroleum thing: paraffin is a very good lube carrier, as is microwax.

[duke76]

First of all are you talking a filler as in filling the case to the base of the boolit or just a wad to hold the powder in place.

Bob

I was talkin about filling the space between the powder and the base of the bullet with a tuft of dacron, Thanks Todd

[exblaster]

May be OT but has any one ever tried cow in a 25/20 WCF? I think I would like to try it if it is safe to the chamber. I have read here on the forum that cow will remove stubborn leading and I have scrubbed this darned old 92 Win. till my arms are wore out.

Exblaster

[windrider919]

I have used a puff of dacron in multiple straight wall cartridges for years. Yes there are a lot of warnings from the '80s and '90s about chamber ringing but they seem to be more about the quicker burning powders in reduced loads than the filler. There were ringings where NO filler was used. The bench resters back when taught me that having the powder at the back of the cartridge gave better accuracy. Dacron is completly consumed upon firing and does not leave a residue in the barrel. If used correctly, ie. NOT a wad but the smallest amount that will puff up and fill the airspace yet not allow the powder to shift it works great. I fluff it out and put in just enough that I cannot see the powder past the fibers. The LEAST amount that holds the powder is what you are shooting for. I usually use a pencil to push the top of the puff down to where the bullet base will be. I can turn the case upside down [without bullet]and nothing will shift. I have used fillers such as plastic pellets and flake and Cream of Wheat, etc. but they weigh too much and the load has to be further adjusted just for that.

Next....NEVER use a magnum primer with a reduced charge, filler or not.

I load 50 gr of 5744 in .458 Winchester Magnum using the MMP sabot holding a 158 gr Hornady .357 HP-XTP. That load only fills half the case yet gives 2000 fps. even my max load for this bullet is only 58 gr of 5744 and still leaves too much airspace so it gets dacron filler.

Another .458 load using 5744 is the Speer 350gr FN-SP with 52 gr powder which needs the filler.

I found that using filler in bottleneck cartridges does not work as well. Back when I shot NRA Hi-Power rifle in 30-06 I never could get accuracy with even dacron filler in my reduced loads. Nor in 25-06, 7MM Mauser, .308 or .35 Wheelen

[Nrut]

Duke76

http://www.accuratepowder.com/ContactUs.htm

Their phone # is at the bottom of the page...I know what the answer is going to be but looking at your "avatar" some how I don't think you are going to believe me....:)

[Larry Gibson]

I use dacron as a filler in many cartridges in cluding the 45-70. However I mostly use it with medium burning powders. Given an appropriate weight bullet 5744 burns efficiently without a wad or filler. If I use a lighter bullet than 400 grs with a powder faster than 3031 I go to just a fast enough powder so that I get the pressures and velocity required with efficient powder burning sans a wad or filler.

In other words with bullets of 300-350 gr I use Unique and forego the wad or filler. With bullets of 220-275 gr I use Bullseye and forego the wad or filler. With powders such as 5744, 2400, 4198 and 4227 I use a sufficient bullet weight that a wad or filler is not necessary.

With medium burning powders (primarily 4895) the dacron filler works wonders for powder burning efficiendy at BPCR velocity and pressures.

Larry Gibson

[EDG]

>>>25 grains of 5744 in a 45-70.<<<
Like Larry Gibson's post says it make a lot of difference what weight bullet you use.

I juggle the powder burning rate, specific gravity of the powder and the bullet weight to avoid using fillers. One of the things I do is look through the bore while shooting new loads to make sure the powder is burning without leaving a lot of zombies (unburned grains). I don't like running over unburned powder with bullets. I also make sure the pressure is high enough to expand the case and seal it off.
If you use a filler you have to be careful handling the loads. Most plastic ammo boxes store the loaded rounds nose down. If you store the rounds nose down or make several trips to the range with the bullet nose down there is a good chance the powder charge may move the filler or work its way into it.
If there was a fool proof recipe or material to use for fillers I would use a lot of them. Because there isn't I avoid using any of them.

[duke76]

Sorry forgot to mention, plan on using the Lyman Postell bullet, 535 grains out of a Pedersoli Sharps competion 34 inch barrell. Todd

[EDG]

Sorry forgot to mention, plan on using the Lyman Postell bullet, 535 grains out of a Pedersoli Sharps competion 34 inch barrell. Todd

Todd,
I don't think you will need a filler with that bullet. As a point of reference I recently fired some loads of 4759 through a 45-70 Billy Dixon Pedersoli with 32" barrel. My bullet is 518 grains and the loads ran from 21 to 25 grains of 4759. All loads burned clean and left no leading or unburned powder.
Accuracy was excellent at 100 meters. I left my bullets unsized in WW metal at .462.
The nose of my bullet measured .449 and probably contributes to it's excellent accuracy.
Ed

[bobk]

windrider919,
As I read this thread, that was the question that was going through my mind. Having any airspace in a frontstuffer is supposed to be a no-no. Why would it be any different in a cartridge arm? I think COW in a bottlenecked round, when the powder does not reach the base of the neck, could act as an obstruction. But my admittedly uneducated thought on airspace is that it changes the "fuel-air" mixture, when the flame front gets to the front of the powder charge. Thus, I think that the phenomenon is localized, intense, and of very quick duration, so it is not readily detectable with chamber-located pressure measuring devices. I wonder if it ever takes place when the powder is half or less of the available capacity? I'm thinking that if the effect (if any) of the air in the case is available from the very first instant, there is no specific episode of changed mixture ratio, hence no event. I could be full of condensed apple pie, though. There was a oft-debated blowup event back when the .38 special was more popular. The standard target load was a 148 wadcutter with 2.7 gr. of Bullseye. Now and than, guns would come unglued. Many people concluded that the load had received a double load of powder. That's possible, and I don't know if this was ever put to the test intentionally. But some maintained that this just wasn't so, so the mystery remained. Personally, when loading any ammo, I want the powder charge to me more than half the total case capacity, so that a mistake messes up my loading bench, not my gun.

Bob K

[405]

To answer the "original" poll.... yes but selectively and carefully in certain straight wall cases for certain loads. But I follow the no airspace rule for all blackpowder loads whether or not there is a filler or wad. For smokeless if there is any kind of filler or wad then the no airspace rule.

bobk,
I tend to agree with most of your post and follow similar guidelines. I think the statement about "fuel-air mixture" is a little hazy. Powder charges "carry" their own oxidizer (air) as part of their chemical makeup. The thing with excessive air space and pressure spikes is a tricky one to understand and the labs have had a difficult time duplicating some types of pressure problems theoretically caused by gross undercharges- like you brought up about the 38 special blowups. Some of those were no doubt double charges. While some may have been gross undercharges causing some form of detonation effect.

In larger cases small quantities of very slow powder have been known to show irregular pressure curves. One theory being that the primer flash pulverizes and ignites a small quantity of the slow powder and forces it to the base of the bullet- that pressure wave is reflected rearward toward the main powder charge which in turn is just getting started- resulting in compression waves having a head on collision in the chamber- Kaboom (BTW and as strange as it sounds, that phenomenon has been verified in a lab). Yet another theory with small quantities of powder (may have been what you were referring to) says that the primer flash is exposed to a very large surface area of powder and a larger percentage than normal ignites faster than normal and- Kaboom. But yet another one for revolvers can be the start-stop-start bullet theory where the primer and maybe a small amount of powder ignites pushing the bullet into the forcing cone- the bullet stops then the rest of the powder charge ignites and goes to full pressure- Kaboom.

Not matter, pays to use the published data, experience of the labs as printed in the manuals plus a good dose of common sense.

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry forgot to mention, plan on using the Lyman Postell bullet, 535 grains out of a Pedersoli Sharps competion 34 inch barrell. Todd

Suggest a starting load of 36 gr 4895 with a1.5 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1 gr increments until powder is burning efficiently (ES for 5 shot string at least under 50 fps) and/or velocity is 1400 fps or so.

Larry Gibson

[duke76]

NRUT, I did what you said and this is what accurate had to say

Todd,

It will not harm anything if you use the filler.

However, most of the time this is not necessary.

There will be some un-burnt powder but that will not be of concern re consistency accuracy etc.

Thanks for your interest in our powders.

We appreciate your business and interest!!

Regards

Johan Loubser

Ballistician

Ramshot/Accurate Powders

Tel: (406) 234 04 22 email: johan@ramshot.com

[Nrut]

Good deal Duke...I was concerned because I had been reading the "thread below" and I hate to see people get hurt...I was wrong as I thought for sure they would say NO filler with 5744...I personally would not leave any air space myself between the filler and the boolit base but many people do and get away with it...Good luck with your reloading....

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/133108158

[fourarmed]

I loaded 25 gr. (IIRC) of 5744 behind the Lyman 500 grain gov't. boolit in a 45-110 Sharps replica, with and without dacron. The loads without dacron gave smaller velocity spreads and smaller groups by a significant margin. I found this so surprising that I wonder if I got the two lots mislabelled, but have not had the opportunity to retest them.

[Harry Eales]

Todd,
If you plan to shoot BPCR competitions, smokeless powder isn't permitted. The title should have given you a clue

B = Black
P = Powder
C= Cartridge
R = Rifle.

It's Black Powder or nothing.

Hell, with BP you don't have to worry about airspace at all, if your loading correctly there shouldn't be any airspace.

Harry

[duke76]

Harry, Dont plan on shooting any competitions right now maybe in the future but for right now just shooting it for fun, well maybe a little competition from my buddies thats about all, In the future I may shoot some black but am a little concerned I will have problems with running out of lube with my 34 inch barrel, Todd

[windrider919]

I just got back from a day at the range where I was shooting some of those 'filler' loads. I was always taught and shown that the more accurate loads were those with the smallests SD as measured by a chronograph. Because of this thread I decided to test my load to see if there was any difference between filler and no filler loads on SD. There seems to be a lot of difference on just how the filler is used too.

I used a load that i have reloaded many of and found to be very accurate.
I loaded 15 rounds with 40gr of AA5744 and a 510 PP bullet using no filler. I also loaded 15 rounds exactly the same except the airspace was taken up from the powder to the bullet base with the smallest, fluffest amount of polyester / dacron fiber that would hold the powder in place when the open case was tapped upside down firmly three times. Not a wad and not just in front of the powder because I have found that sometimes it would shift forward and let the powder move forward. I do not weigh the puff anymore but when I did it was always between 0.50 gr to 0.70 of a grain. I do this because of an article in the NRA American Rifleman where they tested various ways of using polyester fiber and showed pictures of the best technique, as described. The puff is so expanded that I can see through the fibers almost an inch into the case. I use a pencil to push the fiber puff below the case mouth to the aproximate depth of the bullet base. This way when you test the holding power of the puff you can see if it moved forward when tapped upside down. (not all rounds, just the first couple to establish what is enough polyester fiber.

Each round was loaded individually in the chamber but the 'no filler' rounds were tapped sideways on the bench to spread the powder along the inside of the case first.

I will not put in all the shots data but the results were slightly smaller groups and smaller SD WITH the filler. Interestingly though, these loads were done using a new container of powder. And I got unburned powder grains in the barrel where previous lots I did not. Hummmmmm.......

[Harry Eales]

Harry, Dont plan on shooting any competitions right now maybe in the future but for right now just shooting it for fun, well maybe a little competition from my buddies thats about all, In the future I may shoot some black but am a little concerned I will have problems with running out of lube with my 34 inch barrel, Todd


Todd,
There are thousands of single shot rifles out there with 32 - 34" barrels, lack of lube doesn't seem to be a problem. Hundreds of people shoot paper patched bullets with just a lube cookie beneath the bullet, and they don't get leading in their barrels if the bullet is bore dia, patched out to groove dia.

A quick check on whether there is enough lube is to run your finger over the crown of the barrel after firing a couple of rounds, the odds are you will find lube there, showing there is more than enough to help the bullet out of the barrel.

Black Powder shooting is a challenge, but it's great fun, and that's the reason most of us shoot.

Within the range of the cartridge and the rifle, black powder is just as good as this smokeless stuff the manufacturers are so fond of making.

Just look at the popularity of 'The Quigley' competition and the Wassenburger 'Mile' competition, not to mention the long range (800-1,000yd) black powder cartridge competitions, or the BP Silouette comps. Loading with white powder loads would immediately bar you from entering such competitions.

Using BP opens a whole new world to shooters of the old time rifles or their modern replica's

Harry

[duke76]

i did run my finger on the crown of the barrel and did not find any lube, that is why I am leary, my postell bullet has 4 grooves and I am using 50-50 lube and I am afraid if I would switch to black and have to change lubes(softer) I may run into some problems, My bullets now do not leave any leading so I am fine for now but am open to suggestions if you have any ideas. thanks Todd

[Harry Eales]

Duke,
If your not getting any leading then your lube is sufficient. Plenty of people use Pedersoli Rifles like yours with the same bullet for distance shooting, Most would use a softer lube to keep the fouling soft, but many also clean their barrel between shots for better accuracy

For lubes for BP see here:- http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=450.0
There's more than enough info on lubes and mixtures to keep you busy for a while.

Harry

[duke76]

Is that why some people uses a lube ribbon, to get more lube and how do you go about doing that? what kind of wads do you need? Thanks Todd

[Harry Eales]

Hello Todd,
A ribbon of lube is one way of making 'Wads' of lube. These are most often used by those who shoot paper patch bullets. To make the ribbons you need a 'lube pump' this is essentially a tube sealed at one end but with a slot cut in it the size of the ribbon you want to make, the other end is threaded for a cap which has a threaded rod through it which actuates a piston inside the tube. To operate it semi molten lube is pored into the tube, then the piston and cap placed in position. The piston is forced into the tube by turning the threaded rod which forces the lube out in ribbon form.

Other people use use vegetable fibre wads (available commercially) some dip these in melted lube and set them aside to dry, others use wads cut from waxed OJ cartons to seperate the powder from the lube ribbon or lubed fibre wads.

Every BP rifle is a law unto itself, and a load that may shoot magnificently in another rifle identical to yours may not hit a barn door when you use the same load. Lots of experimentation is needed to find the perfect load for your rifle to make it accurate at all distances. That's half the fun of shooting BP loads. The ultimate goal for the long range shooters is a load that will shoot to one minute of angle all the way out to 1,000 yards. That would produce a 10" group at that range.

There are three sites that you may find useful, see:-

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

and

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

and

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/index.htm

The latter is very good if you take the time to run through the various menu's, there's lots of info on rules and regulations and how to go about loading and shooting at longer ramges.

Enjoy,

Harry

[martinibelgian]

Duke,
The Postell has enough lube capacity for about 2 34" barrels - you could also try following test: load a bullet with whatever BP lube, and shoot it in between some paper sheets or cardboard. Then look for the lube splatter all over the cardboard... That is unused, useless lube being thrown off the bullet after it leaves the muzzle - and typically, there's lots of it. I shoot 85grs of BP in a 34" barrel, and have NEVER had a lube problem, this with a bullet having about half the lube capacity of a Lyman Postell.
No need to try and find a cure for a problem you probably won't have - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! IOW, don't walk on crutches because you just might break a leg... Try it, and worry about it when it happens. Odds are it won't happen, so why worry about it now?

[duke76]

Thanks Martini, I feel alot better now hearing from someone that has a 34 inch barrel, The guys I talked to at my club have 30 inch barrels and had me scared. I hope your right, Thanks Todd

[martinibelgian]

It usually is always the same - someone herd from someone else that that person knows somebody who had a problem with a 34" barrel, so all 34"barrels give problems. Don't go for hearsay, listen to people who actually shoot one, and they will be able to tell you something sensible, based on actual experience. FWIW, I also shoot amilitary Martini-Henry with 34" barrel, and even though it shows quite a bit of wear (the parrel is certainly not pristine), it doesn't give me any problems. And neither does my match rifle in #2 Musket...