38 super vs 357 SIG in a 1911

[Tackleberry41]

My other 1911 is one I put together from parts, friend gave me the frame, I wanted something different so got a deal for a 40/10mm slide. Just never could get it to work with 40 cal, jammed alot. So I put a 7.62x25 barrel in it, already load for tokarev so little to buy. Plus you can run them a little hotter in a 1911.

I have been considering another caliber to shoot out of it. Usually try to apply some economy to my projects, work with what I have. 38 super I would need a barrel, dies and brass. Tokarev uses 38 super mags. It is a 40cal breech face so cant go with 400 Corbon. I already load for 357SIG, would have to buy mags, and rechamber a 9mm barrel.

By the math 357 SIG has a slight edge, and should not have the feed issues 40S&W did. Can buy it at most gun shops pretty easy. 38 super is out there, but near as easy to find. It is a US govt frame so was originally in 45, there is supposed to be a difference in the frames. I do not want to cut for a ramped barrel, tokarev wouldn;t work anymore. I know there is 9x23, but alot more niche, cheap dies can be had for 38 super not so for 9x23. And 38 super brass is alot easier to get.

The other option is 10mm, already load for 40S&W so have dies and bullets, just need brass. But its an old frame, I remember the early 1911s in 10mm tended to beat them to death.

[jmort]

"By the math 357 SIG has a slight edge, and should not have the feed issues 40S&W did."

This makes sense.

[dtknowles]

Can you run factory 7.62 x 25 ammo thru the 1911, the COL is longer than anything else used in the 1911.

You can load 9 x 23 with 9 x 19 or 38 super dies. I do not find 38 super brass easy to find and I ordered 9mm Largo brass from Starline. I have a CZ 52 chambered for 9 x 23 and mostly shoot it with 9mm largo loads. My first brass was 38 super with the rims turned down as I had some range brass in 38 super I had picked up but not much.

10mm ammo seems to be loaded down today to levels that don't beat them as hard. 10mm loaded to 40 S&W levels should function fine or if you have to you could step it up until you get good function and keep full bore 10mm loads for +P applications.

Tim

[dtknowles]

.357 SIG has some drawbacks, mostly the short neck and bullet retention.

Tim

[Ithaca Gunner]

If this is a G.I. frame, I wouldn't do it on a G.I. frame. The strength of the steel isn't up to modern standards and often they were only spot heat treated. I would treat it the same as an alloy frame for a build. Why not assemble it as a G.I. pistol?

[Tackleberry41]

Assembling it as a GI pistol or 45 would require a whole new top end and ejector. I already have a 1911 in 45, plus 2 wheel guns that use ACP.

I have seen some talk about the retention issue in 357SIG, but have not seen it myself. Just as some seem to have issues loading it, I already load 7.62x25, bottle neck and would have the same issues. A solid crimp seems to do the job. Load manuals keep saying it head spaces on the neck, you know contrary to all the other bottle neck rimless ammo out there. I back the die off adjusting the shoulder to suit my gun.

Yes factory 7.62x25 is to long, you can fit 4 factory in a mag. I shortened them, adjusting the load data. I would not run them in my TT33. Even with a 24lbs spring it still throws the brass, not as bad as the Russian guns. Was shooting it this past weekend, the S&B stuff I bought at the store was flattening the primers, my 'hotter' loads don't. I use lil gun in mine and XTPs.

Not sure on the strength issue, I wouldn't run hot 10mm in it. And why I didn't really look at it, loading it to 40S&W seems a bit pointless, I have a 40 cal gun that does that fine. But 357 SIG is run in the plastic guns without issues, not even a spring change. I run 7.62x25 in it, so don't see why lower press 38 super or 357 sig would tear it up. I don't generally run max loads anyways. Just looking for a new project.

I could go 9mm, but its a heavy gun in 9x19, and I already have several that do that job. Guess I wanted something more exotic, my friend says I only like weird guns.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I had a 1929 made Colt in the Super .38 that ran good for the time I had it, and had a 9 mm barrel as well.

[Scharfschuetze]

Reloading might be easier with the 38 Super as carbide dies would be an option. The 357 Sig, probably needs lube for the bottle neck cases so lubing and cleaning them after sizing might add to the effort to use the round. I've not loaded for the Sig, but it sounds fun never the less.

[Walkingwolf]

Reloading might be easier with the 38 Super as carbide dies would be an option. The 357 Sig, probably needs lube for the bottle neck cases so lubing and cleaning them after sizing might add to the effort to use the round. I've not loaded for the Sig, but it sounds fun never the less.

Probably hold one more round also.

[Ithaca Gunner]

As I recall my old Super held 9+1 using standard Colt magazines.

[Tackleberry41]

The 357 SIG you just size with a carbide 40 cal, then the neck with a 357 die, no lube needed. No way around it with Tokarev, I dont know of a body die for that one. 38 super I dont have to buy any mags, but dies and brass. 357 I have to buy mags. Both need a barrel. 38 super barrel is a little easier to get.

[Any Cal.]

It seemed like .40 should have been one of the easiest rounds to get running in a 1911. Maybe get the .40 licked first, so you know you don't have issues that will affect your next project. Just something like a badly tuned extractor could give you fits, and cause all the same issues in a .357 sig.

How was it jamming?

[Greg S]

As mentioned earlier, I'd go with a modern frame for better metalurgy and hardening. I would also go with a hardfit oversize gunsmiff fit barrel trying to achieve even contact on all three radial lugs before fitting the rear of the barrel to increase longevity of the fit since the 357 Sig runs in the 40K neighborhood. If you can find a carbon steel barrel, I'd go with that over stainless to forstal lug shearing.

[Tackleberry41]

There was no one thing it did with 40. One time it rammed it into the feed ramp, next time it stood it straight up, another time stove piped. Then it would run half a mag or so. I would mess with it, it seemed ok, then start jamming. I tried different mags, seemed to work best with regular 45 mags, still jammed just less often. May have been the barrel I bought, but it was turning into a money pit. It runs like a top in 7.62x25.

Seems odd to me, as heavy as a 1911 is, you can drop a barrel in a glock w no issues, a 1911 you have to worry about materials. Im not going to buy anything like a frame, gonna do that Ill just go buy a gun in 357 sig. Or drop the extra barrel I have in my FNS40.

[dkf]

Well with the .357sig you are feeding a 9mm bullet into a hole larger than .40. With the .40sw you are feeding a .40 bullet into a hole a little larger than .40. So it is going to be easier to get that smaller bullet into a bigger hole obviously. This is why Glock cuts a much smaller feed ramp in their .357sig barrels than .40 barrels. Yeah the .357sig is 40,000psi max vs 35,000psi max for the .40 but that is what you get when you neck down a cartridge usually, pressure increase. The thrust on the breech face is going to be about the same with either round. Either way the .357sig loaded with a 124gr bullet at 1350fps with a powder like longshot, power pistol etc is going to be under 40000psi. You can go a good bit hotter than that but for target shooting their often times isn't the need to.

I load for the .357sig with fmj, plated and cast. Not the big undertaking a lot of people make it out to be if you have a good set of dies and use the right bullets. Sig makes 4 1911s in .357sig currently. I plan to pick up one of the taccops this year to go along with my family of .357sig Glocks.

[Tackleberry41]

I would think 357 would work pretty good in a 1911, your no longer restricted to the trunicated cone types of bullets. Round nose and heavy bullets could be loaded to a longer OAL.

I did some googling, some say its a nightmare to get 357 sig to work reliably in a 1911. Not sure why it would be more difficult, also bullet set back is more of an issue. Again not sure why, every caliber loaded in a 1911 is rammed into the same feed ramp. Bullet set back should be an issue with everything. If 40 ran better out of 45 mags, no reason 357 sig wouldn't. But I also saw alot of bias in my googling. Alot of 'why would you do that?'

[Ithaca Gunner]

Before we get ahead of ourselves here, let's see who made the frame, when, and is it G.I. or commercial, ramped or no? I trust the slide being a .10mm/.40 breach face is rather new and commercial, same with the barrel. Is the barrel throated? Slide have a lowered ejection port? Proper extractor?

You can use a 10mm/.40 slide for .357 Sig, .38 Super has a slightly smaller rim, but still may work okay in your slide. Your feeding problems with the .40 could be from poor barrel fit to the frame, or even a poor fitting or wrong extractor. First though, let's determine who made what and when. With some work even a Sarco parts kit can be assembled into a functional accurate gun depending on depending on the amount and quality of the work fitting things together.

https://youtu.be/DSTwmexUdlY Here's a youtube video on barrel bedding, link, and lower lug fitting.

https://youtu.be/5ektS6-l_WE Some feeding solutions.

There's loads of vids on 1911's here.

[Tackleberry41]

The 40 project is dead. Gave up on it months ago. It wasn't lack of trying, there was tons of cursing. I would think cool its gonna work now, then get it out to shoot and there it goes again. It was an encyclopedia of how a 1911 can screw up. I do have the tool to tune an extractor. May be because it is a 45 govt frame, not gonna spend any more money to find out. Like I said it eats that 7.62x25 like it was made to.

It is a govt frame, had 'US govt' stamped on the side. Friend had it, gave it to me. I was going to modify it maybe, then figured why not a 40, when it did cycle it was a pleasure to shoot. It is a modern slide, got it thru a member in another forum, he had won it at a shooting competition, wasn't going to use it, STI slide, in the white, no sight cuts. The internals were whatever was in my parts bin, some I had to buy as I did not have the narrower ejector or extractor. It was simply a cheap project, I didn't spend any money I didn't have to. Cut for the sights with a file, the serations on the slide were obviously not done by a machine, duracoated it as I had it on the shelf. I do have an idea what I am doing, I buy barrel blanks and run them out on my lathe, chamber them, throat what I have. I want something done, I look up how to do it. Have both of the 1911 books. My FNS40 works fine with a 9mm barrel I bought and reamed to 357 sig. It just wont shoot cast.

[earplug]

I always wanted to try shooting full wadcutters in a 38 Super 1911. You can do the home work.

[Walkingwolf]

I always wanted to try shooting full wadcutters in a 38 Super 1911. You can do the home work.

Not sure how those would feed, but one should be able to use full wadcutters with a tapered case. 7.62X25, or 357 sig should work.

[Walkingwolf]

Not sure how those would feed, but one should be able to use full wadcutters with a tapered case. 7.62X25, or 357 sig should work.

Personally I would like a slimmer 1911 in 38 super to shoot in place of my Star Super A. My wife really likes the gun, but it is old, and parts are hard to get. I thought about having a Zastava M88 reamed to 9X23 for the 9mm Largo, but she is now carrying a SMC 380.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I always wanted to try shooting full wadcutters in a 38 Super 1911. You can do the home work.

Now there's an interesting project with possibilities.

[Ithaca Gunner]

The 40 project is dead. Gave up on it months ago. It wasn't lack of trying, there was tons of cursing. I would think cool its gonna work now, then get it out to shoot and there it goes again. It was an encyclopedia of how a 1911 can screw up. I do have the tool to tune an extractor. May be because it is a 45 govt frame, not gonna spend any more money to find out. Like I said it eats that 7.62x25 like it was made to.

It is a govt frame, had 'US govt' stamped on the side. Friend had it, gave it to me. I was going to modify it maybe, then figured why not a 40, when it did cycle it was a pleasure to shoot. It is a modern slide, got it thru a member in another forum, he had won it at a shooting competition, wasn't going to use it, STI slide, in the white, no sight cuts. The internals were whatever was in my parts bin, some I had to buy as I did not have the narrower ejector or extractor. It was simply a cheap project, I didn't spend any money I didn't have to. Cut for the sights with a file, the serations on the slide were obviously not done by a machine, duracoated it as I had it on the shelf. I do have an idea what I am doing, I buy barrel blanks and run them out on my lathe, chamber them, throat what I have. I want something done, I look up how to do it. Have both of the 1911 books. My FNS40 works fine with a 9mm barrel I bought and reamed to 357 sig. It just wont shoot cast.

Just my opinion of the original question, I'd opt for .38 Super. I've never had a .357Sig, but there's quite a few satisfying possibilities with the Super.

[Scharfschuetze]

The Army at one time used the 38 AMU cartride as well as 38 Specials with HBWCs in 1911 frames in the various marksmanship units (AMUs). They were super accurate through 50 yards and fun to shoot. They had built in 10s and X rings.

My 38/45 barrel on a 1911 frame will handle DEWCs very well without a hint of a jam, but has never been as accurate as the AMU 1911s.

The 38 Super should be able to handle wadcutters well with a properly ramped barrel, but I've never heard of anyone using them in the Super.

[RJM52]

Friend just put a LOT of money into a Custom Combat Commander in .40 S&W with an extra .357 SIG barrel...both were ramped. It took a long time and two smiths to get the .40 to feed right...the .357 SIG is just being written off as a loss. As was stated if you do a search most people who have tried to make the .357 run in a 1911 gave up. That said SIG is now out with .357 SIG in the own line of 1911s and from what has been said over on the 1911 Forum they run...

Personally in a 1911 I'll just run a .38 Super... Easier to load and a much wider variety of bullet weights and styles available...

I've just bought two 10mm 1911s after just looking for 20 years. One is a RAI Combat Commander style gun and the other a PARA USA Elite LS Hunger.... This round was just made for a 1911 and can be run up and down the velocity scale....

Bob

[Groo]

Groo here
In a 1911 frame , go with the 38 super.
The round was made for that size frame being the same length as a 45acp.
The 357sig is best in a 40cal frame it also being the same length.
The advantage of the 38super over the sig is that the super can shoot heaver bullets easily where as the sig has a short neck that can cause a problem.

[Tackleberry41]

Well the bullet length issue w 357 would change in a 1911 as you have room. But I guess be way easier to use super. I guess those new SIG 1911 running 357 they just put the effort into getting it to work right.

[dkf]

A guy on a local forum built a .357sig 1911. He did not have issues getting it running but he has built a lot of 1911s from parts over the years. I'll have to take a change on the Sig 1911 in .357sig, I don't have the time to put one together. Lots of guys shoot .357sig in G20s and G29s. Like tackleberry said you can run the COAL longer and you have more bullet options with the longer COAL.

[Ricochet]

You might have to have the barrel throated deeper to use a longer COAL with the .357 Sig, depending on the bullet shape. The old standard .38 ACP/.38 Super bullet has a hemispherical nose and a longer cylindrical body than typical 9mm bullets, so it has some "freebore" to play with past the chamber end. 9mm bullets can generally be seated farther out in a .38 Super than they are in 9mm Luger, as long as the loaded cartridges will work in the magazine. I don't know how standard .357 Sig barrels are cut, but a quick search for "357 Sig SAAMI chamber drawing" will turn up the specs.

[Sig556r]

Get them both!
If your intended use is for matches, most load 147g in 9mm a tad hotter to reach major level, saving money on brass with lesser recoil.

[Petrol & Powder]

Wow 3 year old thread still kicking

[RJM52]

As you discovered, it has been widely reported that the .357 SIG does not seem compatible with the 1911 especially one with a non-ramped barrel... As I said above, a friend did a full blown custom .40/.357 Combat Commander...the .40 was only 90% reliable and the SIG about 10%...he finally just put it away...

Last year I completed a multi-caliber 1911 based on a 10mm Kimber Stainless Target II... Two of the rounds to be added are the .357 SIG and 7.62x25...

...so to your original question...I would go .38 Super... It was made for the gun and is my favorite semi-auto pistol caliber...

Have been shooting/carrying the round since 1980 and one can run everything from 90 to 180 grain bullets because of its straight walled case. In addition one can usually run 9x23 from the same barrel...

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=777762

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/24056/all-1911


...good luck with your project....

Bob

ps...an acquaintance modified a Super to shoot wadcutters....he said it was as reliable as any other 1911 he had...

[Tackleberry41]

To late, its already 357 sig, do not see me buying another barrel, then dies and brass etc to shoot 38 super.

Yea some must have issues w 357 sig, did not find a drop in barrel for sale. Just lack of demand due to feed issues. A cheap 9mm barrel was $60, bought a reamer, hold onto it, sell the reamer. Still cheaper than a custom barrel. It is not ramped, the frame isn't and neither is my 7.62x25 barrel.

I will not say it is 100% w 357 sig, but its not a constant thing. I can use the NOE 158gr I use in my 357 mag. With hollow point pins its about 145 gr, powder coated, can give them a firm crimp to prevent bullet set back. To long to use in my other gun.

[Sig556r]

I have both calibers (.38Super barrel in STI-9 & .357Sig in Sig Nightmare) & both are fun to shoot without feeding issues. Likewise with reloading except .357Sig needs extra attention in crimping to avoid setback.
Only downside with 38Super is losing brass, they cost a pretty penny even for once fired, unlike 357Sig which are cheaper & have been converting 40S&W brass which is aplenty.
Both cals work from 124g to 147g TCs or HPs.

[cwlongshot]

I have a few 357Sig pistols and like the caliber allot it was shunned by me being a also ran and not needed... Once I had one its accuracy and performance quickly changed my mind!!

I have always wanted a Super and it would likely be in my G20 (Barrel) or a new gun in 1911.

CW

[RJM52]

TB...glad it is working out for you...have you been able to chronograph any loads?

If I was back in LE I would want to be issued any gun in .357 SIG...simple reason is that there are no bad rounds...the slowest I have seen is the Hornady 147 at 1200 fps...I'll take that over a subsonic 9mm any time...

I do have two guns that fire .357 SIG. One is a parts guns that is a G19 frame, G23 slide with .40 S&W, .357 SIG and a 9mm Conversion barrel. The other is a 10mm G40 with a 6" Lone Wolf barrel that is now discontinued. The G19 barrel is a Lone Wolf also. The SIG rounds really smoke out of the 6" G40 barrel.

Bob

[Tackleberry41]

Yea I tend to run everything over my chrony. Note pad does not say which pistol, have an FNS40 I can run 357 sig in, and the 1911. Lee has data for 800x for 147gr. Notes say 145gr cast, GC, powder coated, sized .356. 8.5gr 800x, OAL 1.176. 1333-1357fps, avg 1346, ES 23.78.

Then found another page, saying '1911' loaded longer as OAL w same bullet is 1.208. 8.6gr 800x, was 1436FPS. Longer barrel than the FNS. Max in the book is 9.0gr.

I usually run 7.63x25 in it, another cast load, get 1397fps out of a NOE 117gr, powder coated, using power pistol.