Practicing with light loads

[Blackwater]

I've noted frequent posts about many who use "heavy loads" for hunting and self defense along with notes that they use light loads for practice. Having long ago found that practice with light loads does NOT transfer over, necessarily, with our performance with the loads we actually carry, this concerns me. Have we forgotten that the heavier loads are more difficult to control than the light ones, and that for SD practice, the light loads may well work AGAINST us, by not conditioning us to be able to use them nearly as well in fast follow up shots which may well make the difference in whether we live or die in a SD situation?

I long ago found that the only way to learn to control heavy loads, and to develop the right rhythm for shooting them fast and accurately was to shoot the heavy loads. Practice with light loads does NOT prepare us for fast shooting with the heavier loads we carry. This becomes clear when we actually TRY shooting fast and accurately with the heavy loads.

Of course, the light loads are a bit cheaper, but what good is cheap if it's not actually preparing us for the "real thing?" This is a question I've never found an answer to. ALL practice DOES help to some extent, but if we EVER want to get good enough with our SD loads to use them fast, accurately, and most importantly, EFFECTIVELY, why do we so often practice with light loads? It just defies logic, really. Any answers out there?

[Cherokee]

I practice with full power loads for the guns I might have with me. For the Mag's, I use reduced loads for practice because I don't carry or hunt with those guns. I agree with you.

[Thumbcocker]

I dry fire quite a bit. Probably the ultimate light loads.

[Blackwater]

Makes great sense to me. Personally, I don't shoot many lighter loads in my .44 because I use it almost exclusively for hunting. It's a SA Ruger, to it's not prone to rapid fire anyway, though. Many experienced shooters like a big bore revolver, like a .44, with somewhat reduced loads so they can recover from recoil faster. And the recoil of a load DOES affect the rate of the rhythm one can achieve with each caliber. And as the calibers and recoil go up, that plateau of rhythm that can be reached is the reason that lighter loads in the big bores DO make sense, especially with the DA revolvers.

Auto pistols have a narrower range of loads simply because the ammo MUST be powerful enough to operate the slide to feed well, and keep it going. Revolvers allow a much wider range of power (and thus,recoil) possibilities.

And BTW, I also learned that for fastest recovery from recoil, bent elbows work a lot better, quicker and more realiably than locked ones ever could. They also swing to the side to take on sudden or unexpected side targets too. Many regard these as "little things," and indeed, in a SD situation ALL else pales in comparison to just HAVING a gun, of course. But assuming you do, the next step is becoming capable of using it quickly and accurately. I did a lot of quick draw with unloaded guns BEFORE I ever started using light loads. There's a video of a guy "practicing" his quick draw with an auto and one of the new Kydex holsters, and he shot himself in the butt. It's funny if you get past the shocking reality of it. It seems people think they can do anything they can envision themselves doing. T'ain't necessarily so, as that video so clearly shows. Quick draw with live ammo is probably one of the most hazardous things we could choose to try. It's pretty humbling IF you realize the potential in it! Some just don't, and shoot themselves in the knees, butts and legs. ONLY when you can consistently and smoothly draw and "fire" an empty gun do you EVER try it with a loaded one! But the idjits keep trying to shortcut that, with all too often predictable. Even when I got good with an empty gun, I STILL was tentative and went slow with my loaded gun, even after getting pretty fast with the unloaded one. There'll never be a substitute for good judgment! And not everybody has that. It seems that there are a lot of us who just don't think very thoroughly any more, and I know of no cure for that.

The combination of being able to quickly get the gun into action (hopefully without shooting our own selves) and being able to shoot quickly and accurately and get center hits isn't an easily or quickly acquired skill, but it's one that's very well worth it in the end, even at the slight additional cost (not much, really) of the heavier reloads. Just my 3 cents' worth, anyway.

[reddog81]

75% of what I shoot would probably be considered a light load. I don't hunt. I have a 9mm for SD. If I shoot 100 light 38 or 44 special loads at the range I pretty sure that no harm is being done.

It's easier to focus on the fundamentals when practicing with light loads. No obnoxious blast, no wrist torquing recoil, it's cheaper. I do shoot full strength .357 loads sometimes but I just don't find it as enjoyable. I try to go to the range 2 or 3 times a month because its something I enjoy doing not because I think I need to "practice".

[popper]

And the difference between 80% full power loads on a bad guy is what? I practice with 'weak' 9 & 40 loads as I won't be shooting over 10 yds, ne or two handed. Does it really make a difference? BTW, that load in 40 goes all the way through a 150# pig. back to front.

[tazman]

I carry either a 38 special or a 9mm for protection. The difference between light and heavy loads in my choice of weapons is minimal.
The 9mm is always full power since that is what the gun likes. For the 38, the difference in recoil isn't very much from my "light" target loads to my full power loads since my revolvers seem to like heavier powder charges.
Personally, I am never going to be a really fast shot. I am concentrating my efforts on just getting the gun out safely and getting in a good, aimed shot. It is probably going to be the only one I get.
There is always going to be some one faster with a gun.

[Half Dog]

There is always going to be some one faster with a gun.

I bought a gun belt many years ago during a visit to Mexico. Soon after that, I learned that I could not draw a gun very fast and I accepted that fact, which is probably why I focus on shot placement.

[44man]

Long ago when teaching friends to shoot larger, they already could shoot the small guns. So it was only more recoil they had to get used to for hunting.
I always gave them my largest revolver and with instruction, they got used to it.
Then to step down to a .44 and they shot much better then anyone I worked up through guns.

[Dusty Bannister]

Perhaps the key is more a factor of practice in learning to shoot without a flinch or developing other bad habits or practice as in refinement of skills. Little is gained in beating up a new shooter. While I agree and practice with similar bullet weights as to the SD commercial loads, trigger time is always a plus. This is going to be a lot like bottom pour or ladle pour. Just get out and practice.

[dverna]

Light loads for me for most practice, well enough to cycle the action reliably...as I only carry semi autos. When the SHTF, I doubt an bit more recoil from a slightly more powerful load will be noticed. With the vast majority of carry guns being semi autos, no one is practicing with mouse fart loads anyway.

Some people attest to enjoying recoil. Never understood that, but hey, whatever turns your crank. If you want to be Dirty Harry and carry a hand cannon, go for it!

i stopped my membership in the He Man Womenhaters Club decades ago. Sold my .44's. A .40 is all I can handle but most of the time carry a 9mm.

For rifle practice, everything you need to learn will come easier with loads that do not hurt you. I know a guy with a .338 Mag who cannot hold a 10" group at 100 yards off a bench. I sighted his gun (2" groups) and told him to get a .308.

I even load light loads for Trap. Broke 200 straight at the State championships a couple of years ago with a 2.5 dram equivalent load.

[dilly]

Perhaps the key is more a factor of practice in learning to shoot without a flinch


I agree that the flinch is the key to accuracy. If you can shoot without a flinch, I think you're already a better shot than 95% of people in this country who own a gun. That's not to say speed doesn't matter.

I keep thinking one of these days I'll drill out some primer pockets, make some wax bullets, and practice quick draw and firing from the hip. I need a place to do it first.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm just fine with reduced loads these days. I probably shoot a hundred or more reduced power loads for every round of full power ammo/factory ammo that I shoot. Paper and steel targets don't know the difference and I can concentrate on my fundamentals of marksmanship better without the noise and recoil.

I do shoot my self-defense ammo from time to time just to confirm zeros and function, but after two careers of shooting full power ammo, I'm just fine with having fun with most of my shooting now. The exception to that is my hunting ammo, but other than my prairie dog rifles, that's pretty much a low volume affair too.

Recoil and noise tolerance is subjective from person to person. From a training standpoint, I've had to retrain many LEOs and soldiers after they developed a flinch or other problem due to the noise and recoil of their service loads. In those cases I used .22LR S&W Model 18s or semi-auto .22LR pistols for the LEOs and the .22LR sub-cal kit in the M16/M4 weapons in the military. Doing so usually allowed me to develop reasonably competent marksmen using their service weapons. As one of my department's FTOs, I had to, from time to time, reissue 38 Specials to officers unable to qualify with the 357 Magnum or the 41 until we could get them sorted out. Even then, it never seemed like a permanent fix for them.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Depending on the gun I'm shooting there will be a variety of loads. But with my Auto Pistols there is only one load for each gun.

I started with Winchester .40 S&W "Target Loads' with 165 gr bullets. $16/100 at Walmart. Now they are $36/100 so I shoot reloads which duplicate the Winchester Ammo. This is not hard to do and since the gun is only used to do things you'd do with a SD gun and that is the ammo I'd be using for that purpose if I could carry a gun in CA.

With my .45 it is the same story except that gun has had exactly 2 factory loaded cartridges ran thru it, all the rest have been my reloads. I couldn't tell the difference when I ran the supposedly +P loads and my Reloads are hardly +P.

I would submit this opinion, but without first hand experience, That anyone who gets hit by a .40 or .45 bullet traveling at any velocity is not going to be happy, and that's if they live thru the experience.

The whole point here is to actually hit the target. And once you've got a load that you can do that with, time to stop experimenting and just shoot. The key here is to practice, and whether that is with dry firing, a laser gun, or live fire, the more you do it the better you are going shoot.

I have a SIRT Laser Training Pistol that looks like a Glock. It is laying around my shop somewhere, and when I walk by I pick it up and shoot at the screws in light switches and other targets of opportunity around my shop. It is surprising how just doing this can keep you in the game. Once your grip and trigger pull have been refined to the point where they are rote functions, just a little practice can keep you sharp.

I also go to Front Sight at least once a year to get everything back on track. The drilling you get in a 2 day class reinforces your already established shooting form. However you first have to establish a proper form in the first place, and that's what Shooting Schools are for. They teach you what you should be doing so you aren't practicing bad habits when you leave. Dry Practice is only effective if you do it right. Otherwise you are only practicing and reinforcing bad habits that you are going to have to break next time you go to the school.

It took me many trips to figure this stuff out. Please don't think you'd be any different.

The kind of ammo you use has little to do with it, as long as you use the same ammo all the time or close.

I just bought 1000 rounds of S&B .40 S&W ammo as it was cheap. It has 180 gr bullets so there maybe a short learning curve, but I know it's not going to be that much different. I'm also going to be learning how to shoot that gun with a Red Dot sight and I see that as a bigger challenge than the 15 gr diff in bullet weight.

Now if you are talking about shooting .44's or other boomers then there is lots of options for loads. But if you are practicing for some specific use then using ammo that is at least close to the intended load's performance is probably the best idea. Very little difference between the recoil of a 240 gr boolit at 1000 fps or 1200fps. It's more about getting the gun to shoot to the sights with both loads than anything else. In this case I'd recommend shooting a bunch with the lighter loads and then finishing up each session with some heavy ones just so you don't forget what it feels like. The light loads are there so you establish a good sight picture and trigger pull, the heavy ones help you learn to take the recoil. You can force yourself to "Take the Hit" for a few shots, but you can only do it for a few shots until you start to flinch. But each session the more you do it the better you get at absorbing the recoil, you just don't want to do it too much at once as that will break you.

My.02

Randy

[Schrag4]

Since I shoot IDPA, I make sure my 9mm ammo makes 125 PF, even out of the short barrel that I'm shooting (about 3.5"). Yes, I know the rules state that the ammo is to be tested with a 6" barrel, or the longest barrel at the competition if no 6" barrel exists, but I don't have any desire to lighten it up. I know it's not exactly a hot load, but it's not light, either, even by IDPA standards.

Shortly after I got my first gun, a Glock 22, I decided I really liked shooting and that 40 S&W ammo was too expensive (this was long before I started reloading). 22LR was cheap and plentiful, so I got an Advantage Arms conversion kit. I probably put at least 5k rounds through it before 22LR ammo dried up entirely. I consider that practice to be expensive dry-fire practice, with some extra feedback and fun in return (plus practice clearing lots of malfunctions until the kit was broken in after about 1k rounds). I agree that it did little to prepare me to shoot a firearm that actually has recoil.

That said, I also agree that beating up a new shooter can lead to bad habits (a bigger flinch), or even be off-putting for some. My first few experiences shooting a handgun were not prefaced with any sort of instruction from an experienced shooter, so I was closing my eyes, jerking the trigger, and pushing the gun down hard in anticipation of the recoil. I probably wouldn't have done that, or not nearly as much, had I started off with a 22LR.

[Schrag4]

...In this case I'd recommend shooting a bunch with the lighter loads and then finishing up each session with some heavy ones just so you don't forget what it feels like. The light loads are there so you establish a good sight picture and trigger pull, the heavy ones help you learn to take the recoil. You can force yourself to "Take the Hit" for a few shots, but you can only do it for a few shots until you start to flinch. But each session the more you do it the better you get at absorbing the recoil, you just don't want to do it too much at once as that will break you.

My.02

Randy

This is sort of what I tried to do with my AA 22LR kit. I would shoot 100-200 22LR and then finish up with just 25 rounds of 40S&W. I don't know how effective it was, but my thinking was that I at least would be reminded of what the recoil of normal ammo feels like. None of it was under a time or any kind of simulated stress, though, so looking back on it, I wonder just how useful any of it was. Again, I consider it expensive, somewhat more effective dry-fire practice.

Now I shoot about 50% at IDPA and the other half is split between public indoor range time and range time on private land, where I can practice drawing, or whatever I feel I need to. With the previous unavailability, and now high prices of 22LR, I don't shoot it at all anymore. Even if it was plentiful, I think I'm past the stage where I would get much out of shooting it, anyway. I'm reserving that ammo for the newer shooters in my family.

[bangerjim]

Light loads are fun, but one MUST shoot full loads if one intends to not be "scared of the gun" for self defense or hunting!

One must be totally aware of the kick-back that will be present with full-house loads. That is why I always shoot at lease 20-30 full-house rounds at the range along with several hundred lighter loads. Keeps me on my toes!

bangerjim

[Thumbcocker]

I deer hunt with Ranch Dog 265's over 22.0 of H110 in different .44's. Have yet to notice the recoil when shooting at a critter. Almost never need a second shot.

[berksglh]

I agree that the flinch is the key to accuracy. If you can shoot without a flinch, I think you're already a better shot than 95% of people in this country who own a gun. That's not to say speed doesn't matter.


Best advice in this whole thread right there folks.

I also think practicing to shoot fast is a total waste of time. Learn to be accurate first or your just wasting ammo... Also I only carry with empty chamber and full mag. Be safe, shoot accurate, and pray you never need to use your skills in self defense, knowing its there if there is no escape. ( thats why I carry empty, My money is on never needing it, but its there incase)

Also as said by others, learn to shoot, then shoot something bigger then you intend to shoot to understand that a proper grip and aim with no flinch can be done easy if your not afraid of the gun and load.

A friend had me shoot his 500S&W, 2 or 3 reduced loads just to get the trigger and feel, then switched to a Hot heavy load and I realized the thing wasn't going to conk me on the head.

So I think there is a good use for reduced loads, but just for the first few shots with a new to guns shooter, or if you just want to shoot a 22lr but cant find any ammo.

I prefer hotter loads, but thats because I like to shoot swingers, like the "GONG!" sound, and like the fact that I can hit a 10" plate at 50 yds offhand with any of my pistols, 38spl 357Mag, 1911 and CW45, as well as my 44 cap and ball black powder revolver.

I see guys at the range trying to shoot fast at a life size silhouette from 18 yds and a large number of shots miss altogether.

[tazman]

Perhaps the key is more a factor of practice in learning to shoot without a flinch or developing other bad habits

The flinch is my problem. I developed a flinch due to years of shooting in a different discipline(trap) where it wasn't a problem. It wasn't from recoil, it was from needing to break the trigger at a specific time. Now I have to fight to keep from yanking the trigger when the sights come on target. I am much better now. I only flinch about once in 15-20 shots instead of the 2-3 in 5 shots I started with.
We have a novelty league at the range where I shoot most often. Every once in a while I can get through all 10 shots without a flinch now.

[Greg S]

In my carry calibers, 9mm and 45 ACP, I load to the factory standard i.e. 9mm 115/1150, 45 230FMJ/850. Is what is subjective, is the percieved recoil based on powder chosen. I don't currently carry anything in the 38/357 catagory so the basic blasting fodder gets loaded mild to wild. 44 and 45 Colt predominately are top end loads with accuracy over the last bit of speed. 380ACP realy does not have much room to fudge and is only a very occassional carry so its basically top end based on the tables.

[Digital Dan]

How does this work if your primary SD gun is a SxS 16?

[45-70 Chevroner]

I read some where a long time ago that trigger control is most important whether dry firing or shooting light loads and the transition to heavy loads is much easier then. I agree that the first shot may be the only one you get. Most shooting instructors recommend 22 LR for beginners and young people, why should it be any different for practicing SD. I will always practice with light loads and learn to make that first shot count.

[oldfart1956]

I enjoy the trigger time with the "less than full-house" loads and I think it is important. I try to get to the range every week, and often fail due to weather or other obligations. But when I go it's with several hundred rounds for the 1911's. Now mind ya I'm not even carrying these for self defense but I just like shootin' them. Between the 9mm version and 3 in .45acp I probably ran 4K last year and look to double that if time permits this year. I shoot a lot of bio-degradeable targets (chunks of wood, fruit etc.) at a friends range and I can say it has made me a better shot. And that does make a difference on my carry guns as well. Any trigger time is good. More is better. I do shoot the carry guns fairly often as well. (Shield and Kahr) A few hundred full house rounds at one time in the lightweights would probably make me jumpy but modest loads...ehh....100 or so and I'm good for that day. Audie...the Oldfart.

[RedHawk357Mag]

Excellent point made by several here, including the OP. I have attended several CCW classes in my life due to getting permits in different states and sometimes letting the time limits lapse or losing the copy of the certificate. Anyways... I don't think I have ever attended one of these extremely basic forms of shooter education without thinking at least once or twice... "man that dude or dudette sure could use a touch more trigger time sans wompum stompum ammo". I imagine we have all seen it, the shooter at seven yards who is at least attempting to use the sights and still missing a humanoid target. Not to get into the 22LR SD debacle but I do have 22s around the house that if the situation arises that I can't get my normal carry gun I have absolute confidence that a magazine of 22 fired in the direction of an intruders head and shoulders is going to convince the problem to go elsewhere.

[Lead Fred]

Except of the 357 mag, every arm has one load.

[Blackwater]

Some excellent points made here, and I appreciate them all, and can't deny a single one. Still, though, I don't think anyone would argue that center hits with a .357 or .45 beat center hits with 9mm's or .22's. All WILL work when well and aptly placed for the situation, but we fight like we train ourselves to in practice, and I see so many (and have seen them for years) practice with WC's and then load up with .357's for carry, and when they shoot the .357's, they can't hit the whole target sometimes, and I'm talking about a K-5!

Was talking with a friend today on various issues, and he has tried to train a lot more people to shoot than I have, and his results tend to be really pitiful usually. It seems that many, if not most, will listen to all your best efforts to get them to understand what to do and why, and then, when you're done, they'll often look up at you and say, "Well that's not how I do it. I do it THIS way. What can I do to hit better without changing anything I do?" I kid you not! And we've both met this more times than any of us want to even think about. One of his best friends can't hit a K-5 silhouette target at 25 yds., and I'm talking about the whole sheet of paper, and not just the scoring rings, but he carries a little short barreled 1911 that he sometimes misses with by 6-8 FEET at 25! Even with a .22, he still flinches. He refuses to use ear protection. He's an EMT and a very bright fellow, but he has this mental fixation that he just hasn't been able to overcome. He gets few opportunities to even try, really, and that's probably half the reason he's such a poor shot. Good guy, any way you'd want to measure him, but just a bad shot. He's finally gotten, thanks to my friend, to where he can hit with a rifle now if the deer's not too terribly far off, so he obviously CAN learn. it's just difficult to overcome the mental "prisons" we can trap ourselves in sometimes.

And all posts have been accurate and constructive, which we all appreciate I know, but let me just make a little suggestion and challenge: Next time you go out, or ASAP, load up 100 of your heaviest loads in your caliber (as long as they're safe in your gun, of course), and go shoot all 100 rds. and see what kind of results you get. Try them rapid fire for at least part of your session. Try to work out the rhythm for you, but don't try to make it "easy" for you. Try to make it difficult and really press yourself. Do that for 6 months, and all of a sudden, I think at least many of you will suddenly go, "Oh! Now I see!," and you'll be faster and more accurate with your heavy loads than you probably suspected you'd ever get.

The only way to keep getting better is to keep challenging yourself. Shooting the same stuff over and over again and getting the same results becomes rather boring after a while, and we really stop learning, though it certainly DOES keep our hand in and our muscle memory alive and well. But nothing, and I mean NOTHING, will ever replace constantly challenging ourselves in any quest to be a real first rate shot, or at least something really close to that, and I think many aren't any better than they are, and could easily get MUCH better IF they'd just consistently challenge themselves more and keep on doing it until they master that feat, and then go on to something else and repeat until that one is "mastered" to your satisfaction. I suspect that 99% of us here CAN get a LOT better than we suspect, and all it really takes is just challenging ourselves consistently, and keeping on doing that until it becomes hard to find something you can't do. Old age will catch up with you first, most likely, as it has for me, but at that point, you'll surely have more talent and ability left than you EVER thought you'd probably acquire. It's all about keeping things interesting and difficult, which in turn helps us focus and striving, and when and if it ever comes that we HAVE to shoot fast and accurately, we'll be in a LOT better position to handle that effectively. And that's never gonna' be a BAD thing for us good guys! We need all the GOOD good guys that we can get. Always have.

Thanks for all the input, and when you can, give my little suggestion a try. I suspect that before long, you'll start surprising yourself, and at the very least, if you ever DO find yourself needing to fire fast and accurately and with a powerful load, you'll almost surely do a lot better for having practiced it before. Even just getting the timing down in rapid fire can be a BIG help! Trying to shoot heavy loads when you're conditioned to the rhythm of light loads can really throw most people off. And two to the center mass and one (or more) to the head on a K-5 silhouette target is a really good way to practice, especially with the little mini-pocket guns like my little Taurus .380. I need to get out and do some of that my own self! Haven't done it in a while now, and I need some refreshing and reconditioning, so if you want to give this a try, don't feel like the Lone Ranger! Besides, it's fun to challenge yourself, and it's even more fun with a partner. Get it started, have a few laughs in the process, and you may be surprised how good you can get and how quickly it can happen.

[Rustyleee]

The thing that makes an expert an expert is that he has mastered the basics. I don't need to batter myself, my gun, or my pocketbook to make me a better shooter.

[44man]

Nothing wrong with light loads for fun but most also flinch with them too. Yes even the .22. It seems to me when anyone knows as they step up in recoil that it might hurt, all the .22 stuff goes out the window. You can dry fire until you are a rock but let me hand you a .500 and you will see me grin.
Now there are limits, I would not hand a lady a .500 but have seen some handle it. Youngsters can get hurt. But I talk MEN! I know too many that can't do it. But working in reverse has worked better but instruction all through is needed. You need to explain hold and all else.
I had to modify teaching once when a seasoned shooter shot my .475 from the bench. He split his head and got a huge shiner. He told me he likes to hold a revolver LOOSE, well, I learned more then he did.
Blackwater makes good points. I do not carry, quick draw or shoot fast, no need. But I hunt. Remember DAVE? He can take any gun and poke the center from a paper target, even off hand but will never hit a deer. I seen him miss by 10 yards! All is gone with excitement and he could never face a threat by a creep either. He still has a lot of brag that I don't understand. Now he can handle recoil fine but other brain farts come in that all of you miss. You can practice for years but if you really had to use the skill, brain farts from fear or buck fever will turn you to a rag.
A good PH can stand his ground and plant a bullet into a charging elephant brain while his client is on a full run.
Regardless of recoil, how many can stand their ground? How many need 17 shots, spray and pray?
Could I do it, darn sure, I do not get buck fever and have had bears climb my tree. I could not shoot them so talked them back down. PA has funny laws and when a 400# bear is feet under you. You do not lose your cool. My thought was about a fine for shooting him. Shoot a perp? Dead right now with one shot. I don't want a toy, I want a real gun. If you fear your gun more then the creep that wants to kill you, you might learn to pray.

[Spector]

Blackwater, a buddy of mine used to preach the same thing to me. I shot a lot of 200 grain SWC's through my Glock 21 and could break balloons off hand at 100 yds about 50% of the time. I did not download these. I switched to 230 grain boolits to try to match the recoil of the 230 grain Hydro-Shoks I carry and simply do not shoot as well anymore. Watching the reaction of the steel target I shoot sometimes I definitely believe my 230 grainers pack more wallop than my 200 grainers. I've switched to shooting Springfields now, but the boolit performance remains the same.

I have seen too many hollow point bullets fail to open. I used to be fascinated by Marshall and Sanow's work with light weight high speed bullets....eventually migrating into Martin Fackler's camp of large slow bullets. I fired 66 grain bullets at over 2100 fps and 255 grain boolits at 980 fps thru my Glock before finally settling on standard pressure 230 grain loads between 825 and 850 fps.

I sort of yearn for the days when I could impress most people with my pistol craft. but prefer packing more punch with heavier boolits and bullets.

Age, cataracts and too much weight have played havoc with my accuracy as well, but whatever I manage to hit will register a noticeable reaction I believe. In my book there is no such thing as a good ''miss'', but landing on target in a real life situation with an inadequate bullet or boolit doesn't make me feel better either.

We give up a lot using our pistols/revolvers compared to our rifles and shotguns in real life shooting emergencies, so I want to get the most out of my pistols just in case they are ever called upon to perform to their maximum effectiveness when it really counts.

Mike

[Blackwater]

Spector, you bring in some of the human variables that so often creep into our performances, and I've known my share of them along the way too, so you're not alone. Good points from your and other posts, but I still think that learning to be "the best we can be" as the Army might say, is to easy to do and our foibles too easy to overcome as we progress in our skills. But it's not for everyone, apparently. I had some reason to suspect I may need to be able to shoot well and fast. My work at the time tended to give all the advantages to my adversaries, and with the deck stacked against you, it's kind'a intimidating, and the only way to deal with that was to get good enough (hopefully!) to still come out on top. That kind of disadvantage makes for some really humble realizations, and all I could do was just try to get as good as my abilities allowed. It was comforting to know I at least had a chance, though, and that allowed me to handle myself in a manner that not being sure I at least had a chance could never have allowed me to be able to do. Confidence in the assurance that you at least have a good, fighting chance, can be a very invaluable thing, whether it's due to your occupation or your bad luck in meeing a bad guy some lonely night in the wrong place.

When we tell someone to bug off, our voices, facial expression and eyes give away just how confident we are in ourselves, and our ability to handle it, and may in fact make a bad guy back off if we're serioius and confident enough. I've had that happen a number of times where I never needed to draw my gun. They simply knew I would, and sensed strongly that this would not end well for them, so they submitted instead of fighting.

It's amazing and very humbling how great an effect simple confidence can have in the streets. And it's always preferable to project real strength (and NOT just some hopeful immitation of it!) rather than have to shoot someone. But nothing works all the time, and if you project strength, sooner or later you're likely to have to use it, and then, it'd better be good! Thus, only the real thing really passes muster. Predators, 2 legged or 4 legged types, ALWAYS sense fear and uncertainty with uncanny accuracy. Show it and you're MUCH more likely to have to shoot.

Thus, getting really good, which all of us CAN do if we just practice with a purpose, and don't just limit ourselves to hitting a paper target fairly regularly and almost without any real thought of achieving anything or challenging ourselves, really CAN save our lives without having to even draw, much less fire a shot. But you'd better be able to back it up if you try that, though. And that really means you've GOT to be good. Luckily for most, most bad guys really don't know how to shoot, and often miss, but "often" isn't "always," and we really don't need or want to allow a bad guy to get off a shot in our direction, and that means we've got to be fast .... AND safe! And no, it ain't easy, and it IS intimidating and a little dangerous, because we CAN cripple ourselves trying fast draw. I practiced for nearly a year with an empty gun, and still was intimidated when I started doing it with a loaded gun. Self defense really involves a LOT more than just having a gun on you and being able to hit a paper target at 50 ft. or so.

I see many references here to SD, but few real experiences posted, and if you'd ever talked to many victims of crimes, you'd realize that just having a gun is a FAR cry from being "protected." If you're not good, wise and quick, they MIGHT take it away from you and beat you with it, and I do NOT want to hear of such with anyone here, though I do know it does happen. It doesn't usually make the press, but it does happen.

Just thought I'd post a little of my thoughts on the matter, and why I hold those thoughts. FWIW?

[Spector]

I watched a DVD series last year put out by Concealed Carry University. I certainly will not disagree with what Patrick Kilchermann teaches in the series, but I can't do what he teaches. Arthritic. old and fat. I could switch calibers, but with my mindset I'll stick with my 45. Too fat to conceal a Glock21 anymore, but my XDS is doable.

Don't know if I'd survive a shooting incident, but at my age it is of lesser importance. I guess I am old school in that for me a great offence is just going to have to make up for little tactical defense.

I used to compete in tomahawk and knife throwing competitions back in the 80's. Won some contests over the years.

I noticed that when I focused in practice matches with one friend he would win on average 10 matches to my one. No matter how much I tried to focus it remained that way for some years. But when we got to the nationals it was a different story. He won on a national level as well, but my focus was a force.

I threw too hard most said and certainly did not have the easy throwing style of my friend. Yet I could focus and seem to will my knife or tomahawk to go when I wanted them to go. I've noticed I am like that in other areas of my life as well. I tend to be a finisher. I think it happens when I know there are no do-overs.

It's not about superior weapons. It's about mindset when you must produce. It used to aggravate me that I could not turn it on when I wanted, but eventually I learned it turns on when I need it.........just not always when I simply want it.

A firearm is simply a tool in our arsenal. That arsenal can be made up of physical presence, not to be confused with size. Skills of communication, both verbal and nonverbal.

You are correct that fear can be sensed by some very quickly. Usually by people who intend to win and who do not consider backup plans or fallback positions. Alvin York and Audie Murphy may well have been prime examples of this mindset. I believe that while it might appear to be the conscious mind throwing down the gauntlet it is the subconscious that on the fly delivers victory to us.

When losing is not an option victory can well be the result, but in all honesty a too close up and personal autopsy can result as well. Some of you know exactly what I am saying, others I hope at least glimpse my meaning.

I suspect that when the chips were down I would have done well in a shooting incident where an individual stands a chance whether I practiced with light loads or not. There are situations when you simply will not survive if you are there when the shooting starts.

Have you ever noticed how prevalent time distortion is in emergency situations that require our response. Attacks, vehicle accidents. Ever have a wreck and pieces of information and recollections leak into your conscious mind over a period of weeks? Your subconscious is a super computer. it saves our lives sometimes or at least minimizes damage as it navigates us through some very serious incidents.

As I said our conscious mind can throw down the gauntlet, but when things seem to be moving at warp speed it will be our subconscious that will deliver the day. Anyone can lose. it happens.

Surrender or retreat is another matter. I believe your conscious mind can begin to tell the subconscious mind what is expected. If your conscious mind values it's life enough to surrender then I highly doubt that your subconscious can be counted on to win in serious conflict. More like survive conflict. But that very act of capitulation considered in the conscious mind, I believe, not only denies us victory it also lessens our chance of even simple survival.

No self-defence shooting incidences in my life No knife fights. Ships rifle and pistol team. No police experience. Got blindsided by a punch once and bit in the back by a drunk. Ended that one in a heartbeat. Found out early on that I am very impaired by alcohol when a drunk put me on my back in Guantanamo Bay. Just saying I don't have any vast experience in crisis situations so I am no expert.

Victor or victim. Victors make good peacemakers. Victims......not so much.

I hope you will at least entertain what I have written and then do with it what you discern should be done with it.

if there is not something special in us then lots of first class equipment on us will not deliver us from evil............Mike

[MT Gianni]

I shoot because it is fun. My goal each time out is to put 10 shots so they touch. That is easier with light loads. I train at the range a few times a year with each pistol I carry. Most of my training is done at home with an EMPTY gun and involves access and target acquisition.

[hickfu]

I have plinking loads and hunting loads.. I dont practice with the plinking loads, I have fun with them..

I practice with hunting loads to make sure that they still hit where I had them sighted in.

As far as pistol loads, I shoot med/high velocity loads. Not too light and not to heavy

[Dtm870]

I load light and factory standard ammo for my pistols

I like light loads to help focus on stance grip breathing and trigger pull speed/smoothness.
With my factory rounds I focus on staying on target.

I do notice if i shoot 100 light loads then load a mag of factory my groups will be a lot better then wear off as I shoot more.

Trying to figure out if this is mental with the added recoil or my hand getting tired of it quicker

[Spector]

Just sent my XDS carry pistol back to Springfield for the recall yesterday. I am afraid my target accuracy days are over. I am trying to get my XDS to perform at an exterior ballistics level like my old Glock 21 used to.

I just got too fat to conceal a full size pistol any longer. I've lost 24 pounds and holding my own now though. I need to take off anouther 60 pounds though. Then I could conceal pretty much anything again. And my arthritic knees would thank me as well.

A Crimson Trace green Laserguard has helped make up for the shorter sight radius of the XDS, I used the Glock 41 last week and shot two distinct left and right tight groups at 25 yards. My XDM Compact did ok, but so far doesn't seem to have the potential of the Glock 41, at least in my hands.

I guess when I wrote what I wrote I did not remember that we all shoot for different reasons.

And I do remember shooting thousands of rounds of 200 grain SWC's down range and just having great fun over the years. Now with the short barreled XDS I guess I have adopted a more serious attitude trying to get it to perform like the big boys.....and at the cost of just having some really fun range time.

I have been wanting to rebarrel my old 32 caliber caplock muzzle loading offhand rifle I built back in the 80's. Nothing more serious for that one than some offhand competition and squirrel hunting. I could spend a whole afternoon at the range with that one and have a ball using very little lead or powder. I have a 38 S&W model 33-1 that is fun just to plink with. That is my carry revolver until my XDS gets back from Springfield.

Thanks for reminding me that sometimes shooting is only meant to be fun. There is a lot to be said for fun time that young and old can enjoy together.........Mike

[robg]

Its like driving go smooth then you'll be able to go faster.

[Bigslug]

The conclusion I keep coming to in jug penetration and destruction tests with cast bullets: Why do we need the "heavy loads" at all?

Exhibit A: Cast bullets penetrate like nobody's business. An ammo rep let me plug one of his gelatin blocks with a 200 grain Lyman round nose .38 at a pokey 570FPS. It punched all 18 inches of available gel in a laser-straight line and halted on the hard rubber stop plate.

Exhibit A.1: A hard .452", 230 grain LFN with a .32 caliber meplat with a muzzle velocity of 830 fps takes 8 to 9 gallon milk jugs of water to stop. This is roughly the thickness of two elk. . .maybe three.

Exhibit B: The FBI's research indicates that hydrostatic displacement in most meat-based tissues doesn't stretch/displace forcefully enough to cause tearing much beyond the diameter of the bullet at impacts below 2000 fps. Meplat helps tear the tissues contacted and increases bleed-out, but these are more factors of shape than speed. You can't get above that 2,000 fps (or even close) with most handguns, so why beat yourself up in an effort to reach a destination you won't arrive at?

Exhibit C: Trajectory is not terribly relevant to issues of self defense and handgun hunting. Yes there are the exploits of Keith to consider, but even he would be hard-put to argue against "If you want to seriously play at 600 yards, bring a rifle to the party".

So, in the interests of keeping it real, the questions to be asking seem to me to be "What is this tool supposed to accomplish?" and "How does the 'light load' not accomplish it?" Yes, a .44 magnum or .454 Casull can push impressive weights at impressive velocities, but is a wild pig receiving entrance and exit wounds from a 260 grain WFN at only 800-900 fps really going to notice the difference?

[tazman]

A lot of good information there. Also the reason I carry a 38 special with full wadcutters loaded heavy.

[44man]

The conclusion I keep coming to in jug penetration and destruction tests with cast bullets: Why do we need the "heavy loads" at all?

Exhibit A: Cast bullets penetrate like nobody's business. An ammo rep let me plug one of his gelatin blocks with a 200 grain Lyman round nose .38 at a pokey 570FPS. It punched all 18 inches of available gel in a laser-straight line and halted on the hard rubber stop plate.

Exhibit A.1: A hard .452", 230 grain LFN with a .32 caliber meplat with a muzzle velocity of 830 fps takes 8 to 9 gallon milk jugs of water to stop. This is roughly the thickness of two elk. . .maybe three.

Exhibit B: The FBI's research indicates that hydrostatic displacement in most meat-based tissues doesn't stretch/displace forcefully enough to cause tearing much beyond the diameter of the bullet at impacts below 2000 fps. Meplat helps tear the tissues contacted and increases bleed-out, but these are more factors of shape than speed. You can't get above that 2,000 fps (or even close) with most handguns, so why beat yourself up in an effort to reach a destination you won't arrive at?

Exhibit C: Trajectory is not terribly relevant to issues of self defense and handgun hunting. Yes there are the exploits of Keith to consider, but even he would be hard-put to argue against "If you want to seriously play at 600 yards, bring a rifle to the party".

So, in the interests of keeping it real, the questions to be asking seem to me to be "What is this tool supposed to accomplish?" and "How does the 'light load' not accomplish it?" Yes, a .44 magnum or .454 Casull can push impressive weights at impressive velocities, but is a wild pig receiving entrance and exit wounds from a 260 grain WFN at only 800-900 fps really going to notice the difference?
They do but on animals, you still need energy placed. A hole can be small or big but if no energy is imparted, you just have a hole. Maybe why Double Tap came in or 17 rounds of nines. Either no penetration or no energy at all. I do not believe in ME at all, I believe in what a bullet does no matter the velocity.
Do you need energy to stop a man? Yes you do.

[Blackwater]

Spector, what a great post on how focus and several other factors enhance or inhibit our performances, both practical and real life! Excellent post! In today's hustle and bustle, an awful lot of us just tend to want to "git-r-done" and get home again quickly. I think we'll probably die in a hurry? And it's very hard NOT to fall into that pattern, too. I know from an awful lot of experience with it myself. But I DID learn to disregard time when I was shooting, and let IT be my priority whenever there wasn't something really pressing on the schedule, and I started doing all sorts of crazy things on the spur of the moment, and after a while, found that this was helping enable me to make appropriate and very quick decisions, much more like a real life shooting scenario, whether it be a chargign boar or a 2-legged aggressor. I may not be that bright, but I like to experiment, even willfully, and I've discovered, mostly by sheer accident, that this kind of practice really goes a LOT farther toward making us THINK and do it very, very quickly, in ways that target shooting never could or will. It just adds a dynamic to the static of shooting targets, and that ain't no small thing, but mostly, you just have to do it a bit before you really realze just how large the difference really is.

Just wanted to thank you for a very lucid and apt post. Most folks tend today to look for quick, easy, pat answers and techniques. Those who go further find all sorts of things that they didn't necessarily expect to be as pertinent as they wind up actually being. But then, truths have never needed our recognition for their existence. At least it's good to see so many people at least thinking about self defense. That's always a big factor, and maybe the biggest one involved?

[Digital Dan]

There are a few things worth consideration in the discussion that maybe haven't been put on the table. In my opinion the choice of practice loads is largely irrelevant. If you are ever having one of those personal OK Corral moments the last thing you will be concerned with is report/recoil. After the fact you won't have a clear recollection of such thing in any case. If you happen to recall that you missed it means you might have won, or at least survived. Good for you.

It doesn't matter if you practiced with a .22 or .44, and used .380 pocket pistol...you survived. Likely you're still standing because you did not over think the little things and let proper mindset work in your behalf.


It really isn't the gun or load that matters, it's how you employ them that counts. Use your noggin, not your hormones.

[44man]

Mindset is important. Like some animals I let walk or just can't shoot because they get used to me. I can't shoot a real sick dog either. The pain never goes away.
But some creeps do not belong on the same patch of earth the rest of us live on. There would be no feelings or remorse from killing them.
Our police are in a sticky spot, can lose the job or be put in jail so there is too much hesitation now and it can get them killed.
A good cure would be to induct every single person at 18 into the armed forces for 2 years and make sure every liberal has to serve.

[Spector]

I am a hard head about a lot of things, but getting much better than I used to be. It dawned on my some years back that if mankind it to advance then hard heads like me do not need to keep reinventing the wheel. Maybe take what someone else has figured out and done and build on that.

We learn from competition, but I have wondered more and more if some problems we face might be much better solved by teams of us in competition to beat disease and a myriad of other problems facing society and not so much competing against each other on a personal level. Just thinkin and wonderin?

But the reason for my post......I reasoned a long time ago that if most shootings happen close then if I could put a bullet between the eyes of a facial target at 25 yards then I would likely feel advantaged at 7 yards and the adrenaline dump might not have as devastating an effect on my fine motor skills. The adrenaline dump will take care of the recoil and muzzle blast and I am hoping practicing at distance, yes even up to 100 yards, will make me much more effective. If you survive the initial shooting, a person trying to distance themselves from you while still engaging you is playing right into your hands.

Just a variation of the light loads philosophy to further your shooting prowess. Seems to have worked for Wild Bill in some instances. But as I wrote earlier there are times that if you are there when the shooting starts you will not survive. Again, Wild Bill comes to mind.

Shooting at distance may save your life, but it is almost guaranteed to allow you to amaze your friends once you become proficient at it. Seems like some feller name Elmer Kieth managed to do that a lot.

I shoot with people who can't do it.....and for only one reason. They don't believe then can. Believe and you will eventually amaze yourself........and then them. And you will run a much better chance of surviving if shooting pleasure turns to shooting terror. Believe it.

Mike

[Blackwater]

There's an awful lot of wisdom there in our last statement, Spector. I see so many people shooting today, "just to be shooting" and they do it with so little thought or purpose, that it's a wonder they can hit anything at all .... and some of them can't! And it's all so needless! That's what I hate about it most. And yet, when they come and ask you to show them how to shoot, and you've gone through the explanation of what to do and why it needs to be done that way, they so often look up at you and say, "But I don't do it like that, I do it THIS way." For those I have not as yet found a cure, and a friend has had even more experience with it than I have and he hasn't found a cure for it either.

And the thing is, it's really so EASY to get better pretty quickly that I just can't understand any mindset that keeps people trapped in mediocrity. Naturally, I hope that if they ever have to, they'll acquit themselves well with their guns, but .... experience tends to indicate that the odds may well not favor them. After all, there are a LOT more ways to miss than there are to center hit.

Challenging games and some friendly competition, especially if it's with someone better than you are, is always a good way to get better quickly. Again, I just don't understand the lack of aspirations more commonly than I see them these days. But that's just me, of course. It's just that it's so much more fun to pose yourself a challenge and then master it, that I just don't see why more people don't at least try it.

And 44man's experience mirrors my own in that the only way to train someone to shoot heavy loads is to SHOOT heavy loads. That rhythm that you create when learning to shoot quick follow up shots accurately is the biggest factor in why I have found it so desirable to shoot the loads you carry when you're practicing for SD. When you're just having fun and working on your trigger squeeze, and followthrough (keeping the muzzle steady after the hammer releases), light loads do fine, and I've shot tons of them. But REAL practice for self defense, IMO at least, will always need to be done (or at least often?) with full power loads. I just don't see any way to develop that rhythm that is so different with full power loads, except just to shoot them. And when the balloon goes up, what we've practiced is what we almost always DO, and being used to that rhythm keeps us "on" when anything that's different from what we're accustomed to can pull us "off" at a very inopportune time. Again, that's just me I guess. FWIW???

[Digital Dan]

I shoot with people who can't do it.....and for only one reason. They don't believe then can. Believe and you will eventually amaze yourself........and then them. And you will run a much better chance of surviving if shooting pleasure turns to shooting terror. Believe it.

I have seen this more often that I care to describe. It is disconcerting to find someone next to you who "can't" in a combat engagement. Preference goes to those who can, or think they can, 7 days/week.

Having read this thread thru and thru, I'm taken back to my first post on the question about a 16 SxS. I was not being flippant. Yeah, you can load one light, or even buy some reduced recoil ammo for scatterguns, but it won't lessen the sting on the other end. Reason I brought it up is that not everyone reaches for a pistol first. It depends a lot on circumstances I think. Going back in time to review what I've waved in people's faces, it's a long list: Revolvers, autoloading pistols, automatic weapons to include belt fed, shotguns...pretty much anything except a muzzle loader. It should be obvious that I've not shot everyone that got to look down my barrel, but it should not be taken that I would not have done so if, in my opinion, it was warranted. I think that's the message received by the potential targets anyway. Two times out of many it was a total surprise when I was shot at and that includes the first time. Two times I've been wounded by hostile fire, once in Vietnam and another occasion here in good ol' Floriduh. This is the basis for my perspective about what is important and what is not. Your brain is the most lethal weapon in the inventory, don't ever forget that.

On the matter of practicing with light or full house loads, I offer this for consideration and it is, in part, an echo from a previous post. Terminal performance with handguns is, on the best of days, entry level as compared to rifles. They are convenient in many ways that rifles and shotguns are not. That said, one is more likely to NOT immediately incapacitate an aggressor with a single shot from a handgun than a rifle or shotgun. The only surefire way to do that with a handgun is a CNS shot and I don't much care what gun you're talking about. So the question I pose is what's your next trick? How might one up the odds of disabling an attacker quickly? Ponder that and get back to me.

I don't have a problem with light loads, if for no other reason than that is a relative term. Full charge in a .45 flintlock is mild compared to a standard load in a 77/44. A person will nonetheless learn a great deal more about offhand shooting discipline with a flinter than a 77/44. A person can accelerate the learning process regarding grip and trigger control more quickly with a .22 RF than a RSB. Being a contrary sort, I learned to shoot handguns with a RSB, but it inferred no particular benefit as far as I'm concerned. Besides, the RSB is a very awkward piece for concealed carry.

I like single shot .22s for pig hunting and CF rifles or shotguns for SD. Don't have much use for pistols.

[dondiego]

"You didn't say you didn't know how to use one, just don't have much use for one!"

[lobogunleather]

My law enforcement career was from the early 1970's through mid 1990's. A general transition from revolvers to semi-auto pistols for LEO's occurred during that time, pretty much completed by 1990.

When I started out we were required to carry revolvers, and only revolvers (my department specified Colt or S&W, caliber .38 Special or .357 magnum, 4" barrel, blue steel). Most officers opted for .357 revolvers with adjustable sights. Handgun qualifications were required semi-annually. Range ammunition was 148-grain wadcutter .38 Special loads.

Failure to qualify resulted in additional required training during administrative assignment away from street duty, something no one wanted to go through. So we practiced with powder puff loads, qualified with powder puff loads, and adjusted our sights for powder puff loads. On duty was a different matter; most officers loaded up with hot .38 Special or .357 magnum ammo.

I saw a basic contradiction with that practice. Using several different revolvers I ran tests on point of aim and point of impact with several different ammunition types. At 25 yards the differences were typically between 4 and 6 inches; at 50 yards the differences increased to about a foot.

I collated all the test results and reported those to the bosses. Basically, the city paid for range ammo for required qualifications and training, the individual officers purchased their sidearms and duty ammo, so any changes (such as my recommendation that everyone qualify with the revolver and ammo carried on duty) would have required considerable expense, which nobody wanted to accept.

Personally, I shot my qualifications with the ammo I carried on duty, allowing fresh ammo every 6 months. For practice I worked out loads that provided performance very close to my duty ammo so there was never a need for sight adjustment or corrections.

Years later (1980's to 1990's) as a police chief I adopted policies requiring qualification with duty ammo. If you carried a .357 magnum on duty that was what you shot for qualifications, and no exceptions were made for timed phases, etc. We provided each officer with an annual uniform and equipment allowance and a monthly maintenance allowance (flashlight batteries, uniform cleaning, duty ammo, etc) which precluded having to stock and inventory a wide variety of stuff to suit each need. I believe that worked pretty well.

I still evaluate any handgun I add to my collection. Part of that is to assure point of impact at point of aim at "normal" handgun ranges (my indoor range is limited to 50 feet so that is my current standard). Usually not a problem with adjustable sight handguns; fixed sight handguns present occasional challenges. My handloads are worked up for best performance in the intended handgun, rather than seeking highest velocities, etc. Most fixed sight handguns can be made to work satisfactorily with changes in bullet weights, velocities, etc.

If I feel the need for greater power I select a larger caliber handgun. Personal defense is usually a .45ACP, but the .38 Special sees quite a bit of use. Hunting trips usually include a Model 29 .44 magnum, loaded with relatively hot .44 Specials, but the .357 magnum also sees some use.

[Schrag4]

I'm going to tell a story that may or may not be relevant to this discussion. My mother lives by herself outside of town. She's in her mid-60s, and she has come to the conclusion recently that she really should have some way to protect herself (a LOT of people have come to this conclusion recently, it seems). I've had her fire a shot or two on rare occassion from a double-stack 9mm in the past, and for her it just seemed like too big of a gun for her small hands. Well, recently my wife also decided to carry, and even though I warned her and the salesman warned her, she got a Ruger LCP - not a fun gun to shoot. My wife was able to tame it on our first range session, but that's not what this is about.

Yesterday, I took the day off so I decided to drive out to my mother's house to let her try the LCP out for herself. She had been eyeing that gun since my wife got it recently. I was of the opinion that the recoil spring would be too stiff for her to rack the slide, that the recoil would be too much for her, so I wanted her to get some first-hand experience before she bought anything. I spent about 20-30 minutes explaining safety, grip, stance, trigger control, site picture, and the things that are challenging for new shooters, specifically slapping the trigger and anticipating the recoil. I set up an IDPA target at about 3 yards, and I loaded her up with one round at a time.

On the first shot, I thought she was going to drop the gun! She was shocked at noise and recoil (she had ear protection on). I've seen this with my wife in the past, so I wasn't all that concerned. As any of you would expect, the shot was dead-center. I tell every new shooter I take out that their first shot will be dead center and their second shot will be at the bottom of the target, and I have yet to meet someone that doesn't do exactly this, even though I explain why they'll do it beforehand. Yesterday was no exception. Her second shot also seemed to alarm her, and like I said, it was in the 3-zone, at the bottom of the target.

She may have been discouraged, but I wasn't yet. I continued to explain what to do, in other terms (there are several ways to describe how to shoot, like following through, letting it surprise you, etc etc). I reassured her that what she was experiencing was normal, and that she needed to grip the gun harder and take a more aggressive stance. Her next shot was still low, but not as low. The shot after that was in the zero zone again, and now she was gaining some confidence.

Then I tried something I hadn't tried before. I loaded up a round, handed it to her, and said "Now, all I want you to do is stop that guy" (pointing to the target). She shot the zero zone, and I was watching the gun in her hand, and it barely moved. I quickly loaded up another round and told her the same thing. Same results. One more time, the shot was just below the zero zone, but still a good hit in my book. She was beaming at this point. She was saying, aloud, that this was something she could learn to do, and it took all of 7 rounds of ammo. She acknowledges that she needs a lot of practice, but it's not daunting to her anymore.

I don't know what the moral of the story is, I just thought it would be fun to share, and that it was relevant since it involves handing a small 60-something woman a tiny, polymer framed 380, which is a bit of a beast to shoot, and she was able to have success, and perhaps more importantly what she perceived as success, in relatively short order.

[Blackwater]

Schrag, your experience mirrors mine. It's amazing how well women do in a very short time. Once they find that the noise is survivable and doesn't really hurt so much as startle, they generally settle down and become very good shooters very quickly. I'd MUCH rather teach a woman to shoot than a man! They simply pay attention better, and seem to have no ego problems that blind them to what you're saying. That alone goes an awful long way. And to think that the sex that gives birth to all of us so painfully, can't or won't learn to accept and tolerate if not actually dismiss a little recoil is really kind'a ludicrous, if you think about it.

And just as you did, I've found that controlling what they think about (or what you give them to think about) is an essential element of how well and how quickly they progress. I've yet to teach a woman to shoot (except my wife) who hasn't become a very good shot very quickly, and it's all because they'll listen, and actually think about what you tell them, and make up their OWN mind about the concepts you offer them.

Also, for all of them, wearing plugs or muffs or both is a key to getting them to understand that recoil really isn't as bad as many make it out to be. I've had several tell me "Well that isn't bad at all! It mostly just jumps a little, but doesn't hurt at all!" A very casual, friendly and conversational tone seems to help too. They just tend to accept it better and more fully.

You can tell modern men most anything you want, but it seldom does much good. Somehow, we seem to have come to think, at least operatively, that we've GOT to have ALL the answers, no matter what the question! That just doesn't often work out very well in practice, but .... well, just try to CHANGE it! It's a source of much puzzlement for me when I encounter it, and I've come to just tell folks like this that if they're satisfied with the results they've been getting, to keep doing it their way. If they want to get better, try mine. This usually doesn't go over well, but when others have come to you and requested you take up your time to teach them, and THEN turn around and won't listen, it's very frustrating, and if I've got to be frustrated like that, it's probably fitting that I send at least some of it back their way. It's not even meant that way. It's meant to be helpful and an honest question/statement. But often it's taken as an insult. When they take it that way, I usually just shrug and go back to doing what I'd been doing all along. Some come back later, and ask for help again, and DO try what I tell them. These have never failed to improve significantly, and sometimes drastically. Many just need to get over some element like the muzzle blast. Once you've identified the problem, it's usually just a matter of calmly reassuring and leading their thougts to a more "happy place," in their minds, and they usually come right out of it and start doing some good shooting. And it's all so easy, really, and so crucial to good performance in a tight, like several above have pointed out.

But it's all up to the individual, of course, and some (sometimes many) don't or won't listen to the voice of experience from those who've been there before us and come back with the info we really need. Training really DOES matter, and I myself never really appreciated how much training means until I had to respond on zero notice one time. One really DOES respond EXACTLY like we've trained ourselves to, and it's consistent across the board. Introducing something different, like more recoil into the equation complicates it unduly, and I still think that those that practice with "duty loads" are the ones most likely to come home rather than go to the hospital or morgue if the balloon goes up on them one day. I just like being as prepared as possible, but YMMV.

[Spector]

Firearms can be thought of as ''power projectors'' when used for purposes other than just target practice. New shooters especially, need to understand that whatever they feel when the firearms recoils in their hand is projected forward to a target they are intending to destroy before that target can cause them or someone they care about serious physical harm. And that power is concentrated into each bullet or boolit. Many times reactive targets help in that understanding.

Whatever discomfort they feel in firing the weapon pales in comparison to what the living target will experience.....if they do their part and direct that power to a proper area in the target.

I still recall the thinking my boss exhibited about 19 years ago. She said she just wanted a gun that put little holes in any home invaders because she did not want blood all over the floor of her farmhouse. There is simply a disconnect from reality in some. I suggested a shotgun since she only wanted it for home defense and not carry. Her husband talked her into a S&W 357 magnum so that is what I had to work with when I took them to the range for her first time shooting session.

Schrag4, it sounds like your story may well have a satisfactory progression.

Sometimes it is necessary to take a punch in order to deliver a punch. That same philosophy can be transferred to using a firearm in defense or an offensive assault. The punch that is ok to take is the recoil of your firearm in order to avoid, as best you can, a punch being delivered by an opponent's bullet or weapon of choice.

Women often seem to have difficulty achieving this mindset at first. Childless women in particular. But give me a mother of any age and let me spin a vivid scenario of her children being in danger by some pervert and the proper mindset develops quickly.

When we feel a firearm recoil we have initiated it. We are in control of the power we project. Be that dropping a squirrel or bad guys we want to project sufficient power for a humane kill or an instant stop in the case of bad guys. If that results (hopefully) in the death of bad guys it means they will not come back looking for more or threaten others.

You've just become society's hero or heroine, perhaps unsung, but a hero or heroine in my book none the less. If there is to be an obituary, cause it to be theirs.

Mike

PS........Blackwater, I couldn't agree more. I see people show up at the range with their shiny new handguns ready to have that firearm perform just like they've seen in the movies. After going through most of their ammo they will often walk up to me or my friends and say I paid a lot of money for this gun, but I think they sold me a lemon. I ask it they mind if I try it or a friend will. Then they get a glimpse of what their handgun is capable of. Often they'll say ''I guess it is just me''. I tell them real shooters will keep working at it until they get the most out of it.

The ''wannabe's'' don't come back once they discover there is no magic in their gun. And the people who do come back often have a big smile for us and become those we enjoy seeing at the range.

[fredj338]

I've noted frequent posts about many who use "heavy loads" for hunting and self defense along with notes that they use light loads for practice. Having long ago found that practice with light loads does NOT transfer over, necessarily, with our performance with the loads we actually carry, this concerns me. Have we forgotten that the heavier loads are more difficult to control than the light ones, and that for SD practice, the light loads may well work AGAINST us, by not conditioning us to be able to use them nearly as well in fast follow up shots which may well make the difference in whether we live or die in a SD situation?

I long ago found that the only way to learn to control heavy loads, and to develop the right rhythm for shooting them fast and accurately was to shoot the heavy loads. Practice with light loads does NOT prepare us for fast shooting with the heavier loads we carry. This becomes clear when we actually TRY shooting fast and accurately with the heavy loads.

Of course, the light loads are a bit cheaper, but what good is cheap if it's not actually preparing us for the "real thing?" This is a question I've never found an answer to. ALL practice DOES help to some extent, but if we EVER want to get good enough with our SD loads to use them fast, accurately, and most importantly, EFFECTIVELY, why do we so often practice with light loads? It just defies logic, really. Any answers out there?

I tend to agree, but within a caveat. The loads do NOT have to be identical, just close for practice. IMO, practicing with say 38sp wc & then carrying 357mags, you will not be ready for that first or 2nd round that goes off. My hunting ammo is pretty close to full power as I want POA/POI to be the same out to any reasonable hunting distance. So reduced loads don't work there.
Recoil management is only learned by shooting the heavier recoiling guns/loads. You can shoot 22lr for years & then touch off your 1st 44mag or 338winmag, get back to me on how that works for you.

[Lloyd Smale]

like 44man I do my best shooting with a 44 special after I shoot about a 100 heavy 44 mag loads. That said I go both ways on this. I think shooting light loads is a good idea to develop proper trigger control. But in reality its probably no better then dry firing. Bottom line though is if you stuggle with full power loads that's what you have to work on. You can shoot 5k light loads but your still not going to fool yourself or your mind when you know your going to pull the trigger on a heavier load. You have to shoot enough heavy stuff to not only see that they wont hurt you. You have to convince your brain that they wont. I do think the really big guns like the 454, 475 500 ect need to be worked up to. Hand one to an inexperience shooter and you have about guaranteed they will develop a flinch. But if you've already convinced your mind that heavy loads aren't going to hurt you anymore then the light ones your probably wasting your time if your getting ready to hunt with heavy loads. you might as well dry fire.
Long ago when teaching friends to shoot larger, they already could shoot the small guns. So it was only more recoil they had to get used to for hunting.
I always gave them my largest revolver and with instruction, they got used to it.
Then to step down to a .44 and they shot much better then anyone I worked up through guns.

[JimA]

Light loads are fun, but one MUST shoot full loads if one intends to not be "scared of the gun" for self defense or hunting!

One must be totally aware of the kick-back that will be present with full-house loads. That is why I always shoot at lease 20-30 full-house rounds at the range along with several hundred lighter loads. Keeps me on my toes!

bangerjim

I don't ever recall feeling a .454 casull handgun or any long gun kick when shooting at an animal. I've never used a large safari rifle but heavy shotgun slug loads and full throttle 45-70 loads only seem to kick on the bench to me.
I'm pretty certain that the .45 Auto loads in my carry gun wouldn't even seem to recoil if I was fighting for my life.

[Blackwater]

That's true, Jim, but the thing that I found was necessary in developing skill with the heavy loads wasn't so much the recoil as the different rhythm necessitated by the heavier loads and their greater recoil. The extra recoil changes the rhythm at which you CAN shoot, slowing it down slightly because of the extra time it takes to come down out of recoil. Stiff forearms and a good, firm grip and stiff but not tight wrists worked best for me, but as always with any skill, one really has to try it out to see what works for them. But they DO have to try all sorts of techniques, though, and give them a fair and earnest chance. Otherwise, we'd never progress as shooters, and after a while, it gets kind'a boring to just keep ding the same old same old over and over again. The efforts with heavy loads might cost a slight bit more, and may be more challenging, but it surely keeps us interested and asking all the right questions, and it helps us better appreciate our shooting abilities and keep them honed to a sharpness that we simply really can't achieve without that effort. All shooting is NOT alike, and though it all has value, without some challenge involved, we'll never really progress very much. And that WILL get boring and unsatisfying after a while, in which case most cease practicing, get rusty, and lose what they had to start with. I've seen it happen too many times not to notice this.

And the thing is, it doesn't really cost a thing, or at least not enough to matter, to keep challenging ourselves, and it really makes it a LOT more interesting to shoot when you're doing something a little different every time out. Keeps us humble, too, which is always a good thing. Humble people think a lot more in a tight than the more haughty types. If you don't believe me, start noticing whenever you shoot. I think you'll find the same thing I have, if you just bother to notice it.

[blikseme300]

Mindset is important. Like some animals I let walk or just can't shoot because they get used to me. I can't shoot a real sick dog either. The pain never goes away.
But some creeps do not belong on the same patch of earth the rest of us live on. There would be no feelings or remorse from killing them.
Our police are in a sticky spot, can lose the job or be put in jail so there is too much hesitation now and it can get them killed.
A good cure would be to induct every single person at 18 into the armed forces for 2 years and make sure every liberal has to serve.

I agree with this whole heartedly. I would take this a step further and tie the right to vote to having already served in the forces, but that is just me and my outlook on life. To me, people that refuse or shirk serving are just oxygen thieves.

[Blackwater]

I just had the thought that without having experienced a good SD situation, most folks just don't have a real frame of reference from which to relate realistically to the concepts, and are forced to use their imagination and assumptions to evaluate what's likely to happen to them if ever confronted. No aspersions intended to anyone who's never had the experience, of course. It's just the way it is. And it's good to see people at least trying to figure it all out. Mostly, though, it's just a time when we react instead of think, and we'll almost invariably react in whatever way we've trained ourselves to react with, and much of what I see many doing just may not really serve themselves well if they ever have to shoot for their lives, and that concerns me. I've seen and talked to too many victims to want to see any more! And many today think if you try to help, you're "Dissing" them somehow. Too much ego really does get people hurt and even killed sometimes. Still, it's each person's decision to make, of course. I see a lot of things today that kind'a disturb me, but I guess I can handle it if they can.

That rhythm thing really is a very highly operative factor when trying to learn to make fast and accurate followup shots, and any of us can fail on first shot in a SD situation, and NEED a followup shot or two. The more shots have to be fired, the more critical and crucial they become, because that usually means an aggressor is getting closer with each shot. Also, in the case of multiple aggressors, which is becoming more common these days, fast followup shots can easily determine whether we get to go home or to the hospital or morgue, so it's really not the small thing that many try to make it out to be. Yeah, it's hard work to get good AND fast, but it's truly worth it, and besides, it's fun and edifying when you mix up your routine at the range or down on the lower 40, and you really get to know your own personal capabilities and limitations a LOT better that way. Shooting with a friend like that, and you can also have some really spirited competition, and some good laughs, because it's all fun when you're practicing. The real world stuff is NOT fun, but it IS critical that we come home from it if and when it occurs.

This has been a good discussion, IMO, and many excellent comments made along the way. Thanks to all for some very good posts. It just might mean something to someone, or maybe even save a life some time.

[Digital Dan]

I just had the thought that without having experienced a good SD situation, most folks just don't have a real frame of reference from which to relate realistically to the concepts, and are forced to use their imagination and assumptions to evaluate what's likely to happen to them if ever confronted. No aspersions intended to anyone who's never had the experience, of course. It's just the way it is.

In a nutshell....

[Handgunr]

After many years as an LE instructor, training hundreds of police recruits over the years, and being involved in calls where guns and shootings were getting more numerous, I have to say that a lot of good advice has been levied here. I have my own opinions and beliefs when it comes to training of course, but in practicality, I view shooting very much like a baseball player prior to going up to bat........with the heavy weight on the bat, practice swinging.
I shoot at much longer ranges to improve my sight & trigger control just to sharpen myself. Then when I shoot at closer ranges, it seems like a walk in the park. I do the same thing when shooting the bow as well. I shoot loads that mimic the full power commercial loads that I carry for realistic practice, and I save the light loads for play and general target shooting........mixing the two somewhat.

Most realistic shootings occur with 3-7 ft., meaning that the chances of using your sights is about nil. As an instructor I also taught instinctive shooting and trained consistently at it. That included mostly "hip shooting". Considering the 3-7 ft. thing as being the standard in most cases, this obviously doesn't leave you the luxury of perfect positions and sight alignment........it's mostly clear the holster and start firing. In my earlier days, they even taught a course in "skipping bullets"......yeah, off the ground & concrete. And as far as hot magnum loads in a defensive situation.....yeah, a little harder to control in practice maybe, but during a real life shooting incident, the perceived difference will be moot........hell, my ears didn't even ring.

I guess my main point is the practical applications when it comes to real life shooting situations in relation to how we train ourselves. Cops and most LEO's have an advanced opening to that world I guess, but most private citizens can be every bit as savvy if they train for it on their own.

Good read.......
Bob

[Digital Dan]

Funny thing about sights and neophytes. Some time back one of my cousins was widowed and expressed an interest in having a handgun. She looked and handled a few that I had at that time and purchased a Ruger GP100. She never was a wallflower.

Range day and her first experience with a handgun of any sort. 7 yd line was the shortest available. 12 shots loosely dispersed around center of mass on a human silhouette target. She said it recoiled more than she anticipated. After another 20 or so shots I asked her to try something to simulate a darkened house. She addressed the target, closed her eyes and put all 6 in a group I could cover with my hand, generally centered on the X, this with DA shooting. She laughed and inquired if that worked for deer hunting too.

[Handgunr]

Dan,
Good one............it's amazing how some of the strangest techniques seem to pull results. I made (and make) people focus on a small stick'em that I place on the target without using their sights.......just a point & shoot exercise. It helps when they can't seem to master the sight thing and feel it's something else that is screwing up their shooting.

Like your experience, it goes from buckshot groups, to one's that you can cover with your palm......whatever works.....