Got a few questions. 357 rifle loads

[TrashcanDan]

Afternoon all

So I tried the f.a.q., and it returned an ungodly amount of info. Very good info, but pages worth.

Been reloading for several years now and due to the failure of a hunter commercial truck tire balancer that was brand new back in '72, I have found myself in possesion of about 200 lbs of lead wheel weights.

I have also recently picked up a rossi 92 in .357/ 38. Fun little rifle.
Have had good luck so far using Hornady 158 gr roundnose at .358 for .357 cases over 5.7 or so grains of unique.

As a few articles and reloading sites have pointed me this way, I ask you this-

Rifling through the forums here, I've seen Lee 358-158 swc molds, or moulds, mentioned quite a few times.

I don't plan on doing any action shooting, and am content to keep it between 100 to 150 yds.

Not looking to set any velocity records, but would like to shoot at the above distance without having to pitch the rifle like an artillery cannon.

Its a 20" octagonal barrel, I went that route as heavier barrels seem to walk less and hold better. Currently shoots .358 diameter fine.

So based on your experience, what mold would work best? Should I gas check them? Tumble lube or pressure fed lube?

Dan

[TrashcanDan]

Forgot to add-

Also looking to pick up the 24" .44 version later on, so any mold/ load info for that would be greatly appreciated

[EDK]

The guys at marlinowners are pretty enthusiastic about 175/180 grains in 357 rifles..feel it raises performance substantially. The conventional wisdom is .360 diameter (or larger,) gas check, higher velocity, hard alloy, lots of bearing surface. My favorite is the NOE 360 180 Wide Flat Nose but they make a 160 and there is a similar LYMAN.
A 38/357 rifle is handy. I built an 1892 Winchester in the 1960s; had NAVY ARMS 1866 replicas in 38 Special in the 70s; got one of the first 1894c MARLINS in the 70/80s; and now have a 24 inch COWBOY RIFLE in 357 (and 44 magnum.) Brass, powder and lead are cheap; tons of brass available; recoil is nothing and they're handy little guns.
Whats not to love.

[robg]

I use Lee 158gr boolit for medium loads and gas checked 180silrcbs for full power longer ranges, my win 94 likes the heavy boolit's best.

[bangerjim]

I shoot the same loads in my S&W 38/357MAG revolvers that I shoot in my Rossi like you have. That Rossi is the most accurate lever I have or have ever shot! Iron sights - - - put the front dot in the back vee - - - and the boolit goes there! Out to 70+ yards!

Just use common 38SPL/357MAG loads and boolit weights. They all will work. I even load a 238gn "pointy" boolit that I load one at a time in the lever. Excellent performance!

banger

[Poygan]

My Rossi likes 158 grain boolits over 150 grains so far. Its about as accurate as I can see with most loads in .357. Not all loads cycle through the action well however. Today I used 158 grain SWCs and they cycled well. As I recall, the Lee 158 RF is also accurate and cycles.

[Outpost75]

Subsonic .38/.357 reloads for Cowboy Rifles

Practical shooters know that any handgun ammo which averages two inches or less at fifty yards over a series of 5-shot groups fired off sandbags is entirely satisfactory for field use. That’s better than most people can shoot. When seeking dual-use ammo to feed your cowboy rifle and wheelgun, you want ONE ammo that is more accurate than you can shoot with old eyes and iron sights.

“Traditional” standard velocity (not +P) .38 Special ammunition loaded with lead round nose, lead flat nose, or semi-wad cutter bullets feeds more smoothly from the lever guns and “carries’ up” better beyond 50 yards than wadcutters. I tested four factory .38 Special loads as benchmarks, then an assortment of factory swaged and cast wadcutter, lead round nose, lead flat nose and semi wad cutter bullets at 50 yards to see where they shook out.

My best benchmark was a known good lot of Norma 158-gr. LRN from the 1980s and three batches of factory wadcutters, an oldie, but goodie, and two new boxes, one cheap, one more expensive. Of historical interest was “the last” of my prized Remington-Bridgeport wadcutter ammo, a souvenir from the 40th World Shooting Championships. This ammo with Rem-UMC head stamp averaged 1.16” for a series of 5-shot groups fired at 50 yards from my scoped BSA Cadet Martini with 6X Unertl scope. The Norma 158-grain lead, LRN ammo performed exactly as expected, averaging 720 f.p.s. from a 2” snubbie, 800 f.p.s. from a 6” revolver and just under 1000 f.p.s. from the Cadet Martini, shooting nice round 5-shot groups which averaged 1.6” at 50 yards.

Fresh, new and expensive Winchester wad cutter from Midway was disappointing. One group contained a keyhole which enlarged it to almost six inches at 50 yards, the best group was just under two inches and five consecutive 5-shot targets averaged over three inches. Cheaper Than Dirt’s imported Sellier & Bellot Czech stuff actually shot better, at half the price, averaging two inches.

Of the handloads using soft factory swaged, hollow-based wad cutters only Remington’s component bullets averaged less than 2” at fifty yards. The often recommended 2.8 grain charge of Alliant Bullseye averaged 1.8”, but increasing the charge slightly to 3 grains shrunk the average to an inch and a half. The Remington 158-gr. Lead SWC FLAT base of .358! diameter loaded to 1.45” overall with 3.5 grains of Bullseye shot fully as well as good wad cutter reloads. The Remington .357 diameter SWC with cupped base, similar to the bullets once loaded in .357 Magnum lead loads, having a short radius behind the meplat, did not shoot for sour apples, save your money. But Speer’s 158-gr. Lead Round nose with 3.5 grains of Bullseye was a pleasant surprise, equaling my prized lot of Norma LRN. The Speer lead SWC shot well to, as well as the Remington .358 SWCs.

Now having established what good .38 Special factory loads and handloads with factory swaged bullets do, I tested traditional lead .38 Special handloads with cast bullets to see how they measured up. Cast bullets included the Saeco #348 double-end, bevel-based wad cutter, an old Walt Melander El Paso, TX NEI #161A 190-gr. LFN: and bullets cast from another NEI #161A four-cavity, shortened by Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com (http://www.hollowpointmold.com) to remove the base band, producing a 150-grain LFN.

The Saeco #348 double-ender, shot unsized, tumbled in Rooster Jacket and crimped in the crimp groove over 3.5 grains of Bullseye averaged 1.87.”
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Both light and heavy versions of the NEI #161A, loaded with the same lube and powder charge averaged an inch and a half at 50 yards, very slightly better than the wad cutters. A couple shot holes with the 190-grain version showed slight yaw at 50 yards, so I increased the charge a bit to improve its gyroscopic stability from the 20 inch twist Green Mountain barrel. A charge of 4.2 grains of Bullseye, seating the #161A bullet out and crimping in its top lubricating groove at 1.55” overall length averaged 0.87” with the largest group 1.07” and the smallest 0.61! @~&*% Now THAT got my attention!

I decided that it was time to try .357 Magnum brass. Seating the 190-gr. NEI #161A in its normal crimp groove using .357 brass the cartridge OAL is 1.58”. A charge of 4 grains of Bullseye gave 1000 f.p.s. from the 24” BSA-Martini and averaged under an inch and a half. Increasing the charge to 4.3 grains enlarged the average slightly, but it was still less than two inches. Increasing the charge to 4.5 grains increased velocity to 1080 fps, but enlarged groups to 2-1/2 inches, OK for hunting but not matches. So, it was time for harder alloy.

I bought some 190gr. LFN bullets from Hunter’s Supply which are a dead ringer to #161A, but cast from a harder 92Pb-6Sb-2Sn alloy.

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I also loaded Winchester 158-grain JHPs in new Winchester cases, with WSP primers and 14.5 grains of #2400 for a .357 benchmark.

The Hunter’s Supply hard cast .358” diameter 190 LFNs with 4.3 grains of Bullseye averaged under an inch from the scoped BSA-Martini at 50 yards. Increasing the charge to 4.5 grains the harder alloy averaged 1.26”, almost exactly half what cast wheel weight metal bullets did when overdriven. Hand loaded Winchester JHPs also averaged exactly an inch at fifty yards.

It was time to go to 100 yards. I also took my best load and tested it in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy Limited with 2.5X Weaver scope. The Norma .38 Special 158-gr. LRN factory loads averaged 3” at 100 yards. Handloads with swaged lead round nose and semi-wad cutter ammo in .38 Special cases didn’t shoot as well, but did stay under 4 minutes of angle, having useful field utility.

The Hunter’s Supply cast 190 LFN of 92-6-2 alloy and sized .358 from Midway, with 4.3 grains of Bullseye in .357 cases averaged 2.18” in the BSA and 2.36” in the Marlin for five consecutive 5-shot groups at 100 yards. When casting the NEI #191A from wheel weights I got comparable results as long as I kept velocities with the softer wheel weight alloy subsonic. I settled on 3.5 grains of Bullseye in .38 cases and from 4.0 grains in .357 cases based upon accuracy results. Supersonic loads do not group as well at 100 yards as the slower loads. This is because the faster loads are subjected to transonic buffeting as projectile velocity decays below the speed of sound.

The quality of current NEI molds, in my experience, is not equal to those made when Walt had the company. You can buy the Hunter's Supply bullets with confidence, but if you want to buy 1 mold to cast your own, these current designs from Accurate and NOE I have found do as well as my old 1980s NEI.

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So my advice is not to magnum-ize it, but keep it slow, accurate and quiet. A good working velocity range is from 950 to 1050 f.p.s. so there is no “crack” to disturb the neighbors. A big flat-nosed bullet is effective on groundhogs, wild turkey and larger edible critters raiding your garden. Bon appettit!

[northmn]

Personally when handlaoding for a rifle I prefer to load everything into a magnum case. The shorter Specials likely do not hurt but over time they might cause some chamber issues. Right or wrong the 357 case can be loaded to any level I might want. My Rossi did not like the Lee 158 gr flatnose and jammed it on and off. Round nose work well for small game as they seem to tear things up less. Generally I have used the 158 grain in it with success. It really has not been all that much of a problem to load for. To get more cases as some of my older ones are getting kind of bad I have a couple of boxes of 158 grain American Eagle soft points (not HP) that had excellent reviews for the rifle. I cast my own so will not state how bought stuff works. Marlin rifles have a faster twist and might handle the heavier ones better tahn Rossi but I have not tried the heavy stuff in the Rossi. Mostly I think you will find that it shoots about anything reasonable.

DP

[TrashcanDan]

Thank you all very much for the feedback, its greatly appreciated.

Outpost, if you don't mind, I'm going to copy, paste and save your info in a folder and use as a reference.

Thanks again all

[Scharfschuetze]

Dan,

I shoot a 180 grain RNFP similar to the one attached by Outpost in his post. I load it in 357 cases to a velocity of 1,750 fps with Lil'gun powder. It shoots very well at 200 yards. Trajectory starts to fall off at that point and I haven't got a chance to try it at longer ranges yet.

I'll have to check into the 190 grain boolt from Hunter's Supply before investing in a mould. As you might surmise, I'm in the heavy boolit camp for 357 rifles. My heavy rifle loads shoot well in a couple of different N and K frame revolvers, but they do jump around a bit in a handgun.

I haven't found any necessity for a gas check in my 357 rifle loads and suffer no leading at the velocity stated above when the alloy is fairly hard.

[Outpost75]

Thank you all very much for the feedback, its greatly appreciated. Outpost, if you don't mind, I'm going to copy, paste and save your info in a folder and use as a reference. Thanks again all

Go right ahead. I'm glad to help. Just trying to shorten the learning curve. I use the .357 mostly for recreational shooting and small game. If I want more horsepower I have .44-40 and .44 Magnum Marlins and Rugers to scratch that itch.

[TXGunNut]

Awesome primer on the 38/357 rifle, Outpost75! I never see Rossi 357's around here but will have one someday. Great thread, guys. Thanks!

[dverna]

For sheer fun, and cheap shooting, a 125-130 gr bullet over 3 gr of a fast powder, in a .38 Spl case is hard to beat. Seat the bullet out to get reliable feeding. I do not hunt with the pistol caliber carbines - they are fun guns for me.

[stubbicatt]

I shoot the 160 grain Lyman RNFP with the big grease groove in a Uberti 1873 clone using 13.3 grains 2400 in lever action silhouette game. I have been using the sights which came on it, a blade front and a buckhorn style sight on the barrel. I find that it shoots to 100 meters on the lowest rear sight setting, I come up one notch for 150 and one more for 200 meters.

Years ago I had a scoped Marlin cowboy rifle/carbine with a 16" barrel. When using the scope I could see the trajectory drop off at just over 100 yards, which corroborates my recent experience with the Uberti.

I have not tried heavier bullets, in fact this is the only bullet I have used, in either rifle.

OP I didn't notice what rifle you are using? I have read elsewhere on the forum that either the Rossi or Chiapa offering has a very slow twist, something like 1 in 30". If yours is one of these rifles, I would verify that it will stabilize a longer or heavier bullet before spending a lot of treasure on it.

Good luck.

[TrashcanDan]

Twist rate is something I should have included but did not.

Looking at the rossi site, no info there. Might be stamped on the barrel or in the owners manual, I'll check when I get home.

I believe that in my Hornady reloading manual (7th ed?), they do list 180 grain sil loads and I believe the test rifle was a rossi 16, but again I'll have to look when I get home

[tdd4570]

just what i have been looking for.

[Kestrel4k]

+1 on the outstanding post by Outpost75.
Not as many comments on powder here (as the OP didn't ask), but so far FWIW my best powder for this application are the higher loads of Blue Dot (minimum loads of BD are decidedly sub-par).
Interesting thread.

[Outpost75]

For the sake of clarification, while I use Bullseye mostly because I have alot of it, similar highly satisfactory results can be had with the 180-190 grain flatnosed bullets in .357 using either Bullseye, 231, Red Dot, Green Dot, 700-X, WST, TiteGroup, 7625, PB, Universal, Unique, Herco or any of the perforated flake or uncoated, rolled ball powders which act like flake powders. The correct charge weight is established by velocity test firings adjusting to obtain 1050 +/- 30 fps from rifle or 870+/- 30 from revolver.

I second the motion that Blue Dot behaves erratically in reduced loads and I DO NOT recommend it for that purpose. Blue Dot should be used only for full charge loads, assembled exactly as tested data from a reliable source recommends.

[TrashcanDan]

I've noticed that about Blue Dot as well.

Saw I was getting better results the more I went up (I stick with the start low and work up practice) in my .44 mag revolver loads.

I do use a lot of Unique, but only because I have more of it.
I think my .357 test rifle loads were around 5 grains uni, but what I have written down isn't in front of me so I can't confirm.

I do have bullseye, will try that. Have a few pounds of titegroup, works great in my .40 and .45 reloads, but until I can get some solid info on using it in a carbine rifle application (Hornady reloading manual lists it, but I need more than 1 opinion to do it), wasn't sure if it was too fast burning to use in a rifle barrel.

Greendot I have, will try at some point.

Melting furnace is on the way, will be making ingots shortly.

Gentlemen, please keep the info/ data coming, I'm trying to soak up as much as I can.

[TrashcanDan]

Lube question-

I've noticed that both tumble lube and stick-type pressure fed lube both have pros and cons.

Tumble lube seems to be the way to go when launching out of 4 to 6 inch revolver barrel. Does it "burn off" in a rifle length barrel?

The press-in stick type lube used in most sizing presses seems to work best in large caliber loads and some rifles. How does it handle in small diameter projectiles?

Or at least this is what I'm getting.

So for a pistol cartridge in a rifle barrel, what, in your experience works well and doesn't have any adverse side affects?

[GhostHawk]

My .357 is in a handi rifle single shot. It is most accurate using the Lee .358 158 round nose plain base over 4.6 grains of Red Dot in either .357 mag case or preferably the longer .360DW case which is roughly halfway between the standard mag case and the max.

Handi rifles often will chamber the .360DW without trimming or anything more than adjusting OAL so that it is just a fly whisker short of touching the rifling.

Very inexpensive to load, with light recoil but a good thump on the far end.

I will be experimenting with a lighter SWC shortly.

The 4.6 grains of Red dot put 3 in the same hole at 50 yards, 2 touching at 100, but I let the pressure throw me and pulled the third shot an inch high and left.

But that was the shooter, not the load. All shot with CCI small pistol primers and all lubed with Ben's Liquid Lube and loaded as cast, no sizing.

[TrashcanDan]

Would you know off hand what the twist rate is?

For some reason, a majority of the rossi rifles run a 1 in 30 twist for .357, .44 and I think the .45 colt

[marlin39a]

I have a Rossi 92, 357. It shoots the Lee 358-158-RF flawlessly.

[Mica_Hiebert]

So how are you guys loading 360 diameter bullets? My noe 360-180 is dropping at .3595 and with both a Redding and rcbs seating dies they are trying to size the bullet down. I find it only works after my bullets are sized down the .358 which is what my pistol cylinder throats are but I've herd the rifle likes them fat. I'm just kinda puzzled at how you guys are able to load them or what dies you are using.

[GhostHawk]

Bear in mind Mica Hiebert that for cast boolits case mouths need to be "flared" out with Lyman M die or Lee Universal flaring tool.

I personally have no problem loading .360 200 grain gas checked boolits into .357 mag cases using this method. You don't need a huge flare, just enough so that the base of the boolit will enter the case smoothly.

A little pressure and the case neck expands some, boolits swage down a bit perhaps but not a lot. 2 thousandths is not a lot IMO.

With a small crimp the flare is removed like it never was.

I actually started doing this with a steel center punch of the right taper, and a tap of a light hammer. Did exactly the same thing, for the same reason.

But the lee universal flaring tool is a very handy inexpensive tool. Think I paid 17$ for mine.

[GhostHawk]

I think it is a 1 in 10. To be honest have not measured it.

I can understand why .44 mag has a slow twist, but not the .357 mag.

Slower twist should shoot short mid weight boolits in the 120 to 158 range well. But might have problems with the larger longer boolits.

Of course experimentation is the only way to know for sure.

Would you know off hand what the twist rate is?

For some reason, a majority of the rossi rifles run a 1 in 30 twist for .357, .44 and I think the .45 colt

[RedHawk357Mag]

Mica don't have my dies or notebook available but my seating dies weren't the problem I don't think. Where I had drama was the crimp dies. I have RCBS, Hornady, Pacific, Redding and Lee. I cataloged with pin gauges all my crimp dies and determined that my Redding Profile crimp die was the tightest. My RCBS crimp dies from a non carbide set of dies was the most generous. The problem was the RCBS crimp die was magnum only. 38 special sank to the rim without ever touching the crimp groove. For lest change in bullet diameter my best crimp dies are the Lee uncataloged collet crimp dies in 44 and 357. These Lee dies do not have the dreaded carbide sizing ring that many folks have issues with resizing bullets. But with your comment about seating dies I believe I will investigate mine further. I believe that care must be exercised in crimping as just a smidgen too much will start to affect accuracy and shortly after leading will be a issue once you pass appropriate amounts of crimp.

[shoot-n-lead]

I think it is a 1 in 10. To be honest have not measured it.

I can understand why .44 mag has a slow twist, but not the .357 mag.

Slower twist should shoot short mid weight boolits in the 120 to 158 range well. But might have problems with the larger longer boolits.

Of course experimentation is the only way to know for sure.

What???

[Outpost75]

So how are you guys loading 360 diameter bullets? My noe 360-180 is dropping at .3595 and with both a Redding and rcbs seating dies they are trying to size the bullet down. I find it only works after my bullets are sized down the .358 which is what my pistol cylinder throats are but I've herd the rifle likes them fat. I'm just kinda puzzled at how you guys are able to load them or what dies you are using.

I use the RCBS Cowboy dies which are dimensioned for lead bullets.

No issues loading .360 bullets in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy II which prefers them FAT.

[hornady308]

My everyday load for the Rossi is 14 gr 2400, the Lee 358-158-rf using wcww and standard pistol primers. I have some heavier bullets to try, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I routinely practice at a hundred yards with open sights and would not hesitate to use this load on a deer at that distance. I tried the Lee C358-158-SWC, but the groups weren't as good.

[Went2kck]

Lyman 170 gr bullet works really well with 11 gr of 2400 pushing it out of a rifle or a pistol.

[TrashcanDan]

125 gr seems to be the magic number for this rossi 1:30 twist.

At 50 yds with 4, 4.5 and 5 grns of Unique, groups tightened up immensely vs. 158 gr.

Still playing around with powders.

[TrashcanDan]

As per the advice of Outpost, Bullseye powder gave me the best group.

As I don't have the info in front of me, I want to say start with 5 gr, work up to 6 gr. 5.6 gave me the best.

IMR 4227, IMR sr 4756, unique all seemed to group well. Titegroup had the biggest spread, or preformed the worst. Unique was really good, but left a lot of soot on the casings. I do not own any powder outside of that listing.

Loaded up 10 rounds, of each charge, for each powder. So 150 rounds total? I did 5 shot groups, so I burned through 75 rounds total.

C.o.a.l. is what's listed in the Hornady book for .357 125 gr rnfp.

Brass is new Hornady .357.

125 gr r.n.f.p., cast, sized, powder coated, then sized again to .358. Lee tumble lube mold. Clip-on wheel weights.

Win sm pist mag primer

20" octagonal barrel, 1-30 twist, rear tang sight.

At 50 yds, decent weather conditions, range-rambo's interupting me, managed less than 1" spread with Bullseye.

I have no doubt that in a vise, these would be one on top of the other.

For me, and what I'm doing, this is ideal for 100 yds, and have complete confidence that I would survive should paper target suddenly come to life and attack. I have no doubt it will also work for the 100 yd summer league I'm in.

Will it put holes in paper at 150-200 yds? Probably.
Not too many ranges around here that offer anything past 200, and on a busy day with range-rambos, theres really no getting down that far to hang targets because they want to see how fast they can burn through ammo. Then complain about how much it costs them to shoot.

Will it knock things over at 100 yds? I don't know.

Will it take game at 100 yds? I don't know, there is no rifle hunting on this side of the state. Will it take a coyote if it comes into my back yard? It sure will. I've done it with .22.

Will it work for cowboy action shoots? No idea. Doubtful as the heavier stuff seems to work up to 25 yds, but beyond that fly left and right, or they did for me.

Did powder coated cast leave any lead at a roughly estimated 12 to 1500 f.p.s. (based on estimated data from both manuals and online info provided by various powder manufacturer recipes ) after 75 rounds?
Nope. None at all. Gunpowder residue and thats it. Few swipes with a boresnake and it was clean.

Did I take pictures of the targets? No. Looking back I probably should have, but because of social media, a lot of ranges around here banned any type of live feeds, or pictures, blah blah blah. They don't want to run the risk of bad press. I can understand that.