Accuracy problem or just learn to shoot?

[Any Cal.]

Hi all.

I have a bit of a conundrum here.

For background, I have quite a bit of shooting experience, and consider myself above average, (not that that is saying much!). I have been shooting a new Super Blackhawk Sheriff (Talo), and had been unhappy with some crazy fliers when plinking. Often 6" from expected POI at 15+ yds. Also, some 45/45/10 bullets sized to .432 leaded lots more than would be expected from the load. Nothing was noticed when shooting jacketed.

After measuring, I found out the throats were .432+, and out of round. They were that size on the small dimension. The forcing cone was .450+. Haven't slugged the barrel.

The pic below is a couple of groups. The top right is 2 cylinders from a seasoned barrel at 15yds from the Super B, RD265 w/ Tac1 lube. The one on the purple dot is from a Glock 20 with 10mm +P cast loads. Both were with elbows rested.

I expect groups like that from the G20. Super high pressure over plain base cast, long and heavy trigger... Not so much the Sheriff model. With nearly the same load I got groups like that at 25 yds with a Redhawk, which was on the low end of acceptable, and it didn't lead.

Any thoughts? I don't have any use for a jacketed only revo. Would really expect considerably smaller groups at 15yds. I shoot well enough to call my shots to an extent, and all the Sheriff group were on the white dot when fired. It makes me wonder how the gun would shoot if the throats and forcing cone were sized properly? Pic is sideways, top right group is 2 3/8" bottom right about same.

162896

The bottom right target was from the Sheriff when it was mostly clean, but I believe half of the shots were 240g boolits rather than 265, thus the two groups.

[drklynoon]

Anycal,
Sorry you are having issues. I know how frustrating that can be. Some may argue this; however, if you are leading "lots more than expected" then you can discount the accuracy tests as inconclusive. The first step is too fix the leading or at least reduce it to a manageable amount. Once you get that handled then it is time for load development for accuracy. .432 is a little fat for a Ruger, especially if it is a newer one. I would double check those throats and slug the barrel. I'm not sure what hardness of bullet, Gas check status, or load pressure you are using but this could help in diagnosing your issue.

[Any Cal.]

That makes sense. My concern is that I am getting lots of leading in the forcing cone with boolits .433+(bigger than .432 before loading into brass, and not dead soft)... If they are bigger than the throats, or same sized, and the load isn't WAY out of whack, it seems like it shouldn't be doing that. That and there will be no way to make a .430 boolit shoot ever. I hate to go to great lengths to make specialty oversized boolits shoot- if it takes that there is something wrong with the gun.

[drklynoon]

AnyCal,
I am surprised that your throats are that large. Many, including me, have been complaining of too small of throats in new Rugers. I would check the barrel and see what it is in comparison to the throat. If the barrel is .429 and the throats are .432 then you may be in a bad situation. If the barrel is closer, say .430-.431 then you should be able to size to a push through throat tightness and get it to work. Bullet hardness is relative, I think of it like this, you want the bullet as soft as it can be without stripping the rifling. However, I do not actually keep to this as I water drop many of my bullets that do not need it. Then again some advocate for the hardest bullets you can make so I guess there isn't an answer but I would certainly look at the leading issue first and accuracy second.

[44man]

True, you need groove size, most Rugers I have measured run at .430". .432" throats should be good. Mine are larger at .4324" and will shoot .430 to .432" boolits.
Leading near the cone sure says the boolits are skidding plus a poor lube.
You did not say the load used but a very fast powder just increases the problems.
I get fliers with softer lead but as much as 6" means your case tension on the boolit is not even from case to case. I bet anything you will feel each boolit seat different from very easy to some very tight. Putting pig snot on boolits just makes them break loose too early.
Next, get rid of the magnum primers that also pop boolits out before good ignition.
What dies are you using, they are not all equal, I use nothing but Hornady New Dimension dies and YES, the expander is made for jacketed. Make the boolit tough enough to expand the brass when you seat. If you can't see the boolit base and ripples from GG's on the brass you are not good enough. Don't hunt to make brass larger with over size expanders, things will get worse.
You need a total review of loading the .44, it can be a bugger.
Do not over crimp, just enough so boolits don't move from recoil. Tension is more important.162911 This is average at 50 YARDS and I consider I had two fliers. 162913 This is the 265 RD at 50 and the can at 100 yards. I hit the rail once so aimed higher for the last shot. This boolit has held 3/4" at 50.

[44man]

One thing I forgot, do not make boolits larger then the throats. You just make throats size dies or are trying to compensate for brass sizing the boolits. Neither works. Your gun should handle .430" boolits with better groups at 100 then what you shot.
Put Felix lube on the RD. Water drop WW boolits to 20-22 BHN. Age a few days before loading.

[Whiterabbit]

44man, do you re-size after a couple days?

[tdoyka]

True, you need groove size, most Rugers I have measured run at .430". .432" throats should be good. Mine are larger at .4324" and will shoot .430 to .432" boolits.
Leading near the cone sure says the boolits are skidding plus a poor lube.
You did not say the load used but a very fast powder just increases the problems.
I get fliers with softer lead but as much as 6" means your case tension on the boolit is not even from case to case. I bet anything you will feel each boolit seat different from very easy to some very tight. Putting pig snot on boolits just makes them break loose too early.
Next, get rid of the magnum primers that also pop boolits out before good ignition.
What dies are you using, they are not all equal, I use nothing but Hornady New Dimension dies and YES, the expander is made for jacketed. Make the boolit tough enough to expand the brass when you seat. If you can't see the boolit base and ripples from GG's on the brass you are not good enough. Don't hunt to make brass larger with over size expanders, things will get worse.
You need a total review of loading the .44, it can be a bugger.
Do not over crimp, just enough so boolits don't move from recoil. Tension is more important.162911 This is average at 50 YARDS and I consider I had two fliers. 162913 This is the 265 RD at 50 and the can at 100 yards. I hit the rail once so aimed higher for the last shot. This boolit has held 3/4" at 50.


great shootin!!!

my 50 yarder, from a tripod, looks like swiss cheese(about 2 3/4 - 3 1/2").

[Any Cal.]

OK.

Boolits are water dropped, so plenty tough, I think. Throats were remeasured, I am using a split ball small hole gauge and a micrometer, definitely .432+. I will clean the gun (again) and make some more loads with a grain less powder, using 7625, so on the faster side. I think those were @ 8g.

Brass is slightly wasp waisted, so plenty of neck tension.

44man, if your shooting fine with boolits undersized at the throat, it gives me hope!

[44man]

44man, do you re-size after a couple days?
Thought about it but never got anal about it. I don't think it does any harm when you size. It is said you soften the surface but that will not be as deep as the rifling anyway.
I feel brass is the cause of most problems.

[44man]

OK.

Boolits are water dropped, so plenty tough, I think. Throats were remeasured, I am using a split ball small hole gauge and a micrometer, definitely .432+. I will clean the gun (again) and make some more loads with a grain less powder, using 7625, so on the faster side. I think those were @ 8g.

Brass is slightly wasp waisted, so plenty of neck tension.

44man, if your shooting fine with boolits undersized at the throat, it gives me hope!
Don't give up, most is simple stuff.

[EDK]

Where is DOUG GUY when you need him? He corrects some cylinder issues..too small is easy to fix! IIRC he reams to .4325 in some cases. Do a search and contact him with your troubles.

I've been lusting for one of those little VAQUEROS, but shot my allowance on a GLOCK 41, KKM barrel and a boolit mould. I also have an blue/cch Original Size VAQUERO in 44 magnum that was custom cut to 3.5 that I've had for several years. IIRC I fed it full wadcutters (LYMAN 429352 clone) over a wimp load of TITEGROUP. Besides cylinder work, I'd get a trigger job and install a HUNTER grip frame with semi standard grips. That birdshead looks like pain to me...I've already had CARPAL TUNNEL and now arthritis.

I have used the RANCH DOG 265 tumbled lubed with BEN'S LIQUID LUBE to remove leading in my VAQUEROS. MY experience with TAC in revolvers wasn't good, BUT excellent in autos. DOUG GUY also does TAYLOR THROATING in the barrel, IIRC. I'd be inclined to discuss things with him. FIRELAPPING is another option.

[Any Cal.]

Excellent suggestions, thanks!

Mine isn't the birdshead, it has the standard Blackhawk grip frame, just in stainless. It is probably very similar to yours except with a Super hammer and adjustable sights. I really would have no complaints if I could get a non leading, accurate 270@1200+, or some 310s at a similar speed. The RD Mold and a turret press makes it pretty easy to load enough to practice with...

[DougGuy]

It's possible that some of the throats are .432" but I suspect an error in the measuring tools more than anything else. Pin gages do not confuse the math, and they will find an oval/cateyed hole in a heartbeat.

It is likely that you have some uneven cylinder throats. How Ruger used to make cylinders, I don't know how they do them now, but they used a Hitachi machine with 3 cutters, it would plunge 3 throats at a time, index the cylinder over one hole and plunge the remaining 3. As the reamers wore, they would cut smaller and smaller holes until they decided to replace them once beyond service. The problem with this, is they would replace the worst one, and continue running cylinders until they had to replace the next worse one, so what happens is you got a cylinder with a pair of throats cut by a new reamer, which may be at .432" or even slightly larger, then you got another adjacent pair of throats at .431" and the third pair at .429" so you basically have pressures going all over the map when you are firing, and you have several different points of impact the boolits will fly to, even if using the same point of aim for each shot.

More important than what final diameter the throats are, is that they are even with each other. You can always size to fit the throat, or with a soft enough alloy, let pressure size it to the throat for you which it will gladly do with a heavy charge of slow burning powder under a less than BHN15 boolit.

Once cylinder throats are corrected, and it is determined the forcing cone is adequately cut so as to not do more damage to the boolit than it does guidance, the rest of the combo is at the press. Also, you have the shortest barreled .44 magnum of any factory made Ruger revolvers, so having the gun mechanically correct is even more important.

[Whiterabbit]

Thought about it but never got anal about it. I don't think it does any harm when you size. It is said you soften the surface but that will not be as deep as the rifling anyway.
I feel brass is the cause of most problems.

So your cast bullets do not grow if you let them sit on a shelf for a few days, weeks, months? I've had some that were sized then sat, then months later loaded and somehow grew at least .0005 or .001 or more because they suddenly did not push through the cylinder throat anymore.

[44man]

So your cast bullets do not grow if you let them sit on a shelf for a few days, weeks, months? I've had some that were sized then sat, then months later loaded and somehow grew at least .0005 or .001 or more because they suddenly did not push through the cylinder throat anymore.
Yes, they grow for sure. I have had to size my .475's again. They are .476" but can grow to .478".
Did no harm to size again.
I have left unsized boolits sit for a year and lubed, sized with no change in groups, something I never worried about. Same with water dropping, sure can't tell a difference between one at 20 BHN and the next at 22 BHN. Boolits will be at mold temp even if you drop a few seconds apart. That is higher then when you heat treat, at least 500°.
I figure to size a hard boolit .0005" or a tad more when the rifling is at least .003" deep sure does no harm.
You have to make things easy or you will have broken teeth and white knuckles. Don't sweat the small stuff.

[Whiterabbit]

I mention it because elsewhere youve said not to shoot bullets oversized to your throats, you'll have accuracy issues. But this is the opposite sentiment.

[9.3X62AL]

SAAMI specs for the 44 Special and 44 Magnum allow a throat diameter of up to .433". I recall a gun-buying foray I made with Gopher Slayer a few years back, the seller had five Model 29 variants to select from and I was seeking at least one of same to hunt and carry afield in bear/cougar country. IIRC, these were all 1980s-vintage examples, in great shape because their owner was a former Marine who cared for his tools meticulously. Five 6-shooters = 30 charge holes, and the Revolver Polygraph (pin gauges) showed 2 throats @ .432"--2 or 3 throats @ .434"--and the rest scored @ .433". Already having a Redhawk with .430" grooves and .4305"-.431" throats, I didn't need this sort of aggravation (custom mould & sizer, etc.). I passed on all of those examples, though their pricing was very reasonable.

As I get older, my patience for gunmaker poetry and flights of fancy gets a smaller and smaller porch to stand on while ringing my doorbell.

[Any Cal.]

Well hmmm. Throats are NOT even, 2 are noticeably different sizes than the rest. They are opposite each other. My micrometer could be off, but I doubt it... Adjusting the gauge to .432, it barely rubs two holes, and falls freely down the other 4. Hopefully I can try one new load today and see how it does.

This is a learning experience for me, I assumed .431-.432 throats were common on .44. Never expected anyone would have bigger than .4320 unless it was a QC slip.

[DougGuy]

Never expected anyone would have bigger than .4320 unless it was a QC slip.

Not a QC slip, but a freshly replaced reamer on the cylinder machine!

[Any Cal.]

Well, I tried two different loads, but am not sure what I learned.

First, same powder charge with some RD240 bullets, lubed with Tac1. The idea was just to lessen the pressure, and see if that helped anything.

Second was shooting some .430 RCBS 250 Keith that were air cooled under even less powder. Those ones are the better looking group you see. A couple of the outliers were obvious fliers, but the bare boolits had been rattling in a box for many miles, so I will call those bad boolit bases. It was some kind of hard lube.

The top target was the RCBS boolit, lower one the RD240. Oh, pic is sideways, RCBS boolit is on left. The white spots are less than 3/4" wide, for reference. Ignore the 4 holes with the pen line through them that are not part of a group, they were old.

163149

Not sure why the RD240s had two groups again, each cylinderful put several rounds into each group...

So at least I know that 1) the "undersized" boolits (compared to the throat) can shoot better than anticipated, and 2) I need to try the lower powder charge with the RD240s now. My current conclusion is that the gun won't REQUIRE oversize boolits, which was my biggest concern, and that it will likely be able to shoot something tolerably well once I figure out what the problem is, and that I can shoot better than 2 1/2" groups at 15 yards...:oops:

[DougGuy]

When you get your cylinder back, the POI will again be different, but all the boolits will go into one group. You have uneven cylinder throats..

[Whiterabbit]

have you tried shooting resting? maybe 25 yards? Or in a round about way, you have no issues shooting much smaller groups with other guns that have similar style sights?

[Any Cal.]

That was resting/rested. It was only at 15yds because 1)I had a convenient spot for the target and 2)it seems like it is easier to keep a 15yd dot crisp in the sights. I am somewhat used to those sights from other Rugers.

The target on the left in the pic above, minus the crazy fliers, is about what I expected from the beginning, not groups 2-3x that size. I usually shoot 12g hulls offhand with pretty good success using other firearms, so expected more shooting with elbows rested.

[Whiterabbit]

That was resting/rested.

Oh. ...dear. OK. Next idea, have you been using the same powder for all these tests? My 460 BFR apparently (for 50 yard shooting and below) seems to be pretty tolerant to a wide range of bullet designs, but seemed to be pretty sensitive to powder choice. some powders I could simply never make work very well, and that would be able to be seen at 15 yards too.

might be straw grasping, but there's one thought that had a big influence over here.

Another thought, I assume you did your due dilligence? forcing cone concentric, crown looks OK? You getting nice even lube stars on the muzzle profile?

[44man]

I mention it because elsewhere youve said not to shoot bullets oversized to your throats, you'll have accuracy issues. But this is the opposite sentiment.
True and I don't. I will take larger boolits back when I find them. You can get away with a small amount but to run a .454" boolit through a .449" throat into a .452" groove is insane.
If I have .478" boolits when I need .476". I WILL size again.
But you bring up a question that I can't answer. What if I load .476" boolits and they sit, do they expand and even expand brass? It seems rounds loaded a long time never match earlier loads. I seem to get better accuracy after a week then after a year.

[44man]

I have found boolits at groove size are OK. But Doug is also correct that each chamber and throat must be close because it changes all. Best to be even.

[Any Cal.]

Well, due to a fortunate turn of circumstances, I was able to recover a few bullets. First pic shows some hot reloads someone had put together years ago. I *think* the one on the left is out of the 3 3/4" Super Blackhawk, but don't know if it slowed down going through anything. The two clumped on the right are out of a 20" carbine, same unknown hot load. They were shot into a gallon jug of water, and apparently stayed in it!

165236

Second pic is a 158xtp, obviously didn't hit much other than snow or wood, out of a 4" .357, midrange hot. The next boolit is 228g 10mm (1100ish fps) that just hit wood or snow, followed by a couple more of the same that hit a cinder block. The odd one is a Ranch Dog 265 .44, unknown velocity, and don't know what it hit, but it was kind of neat.

165237

This third pic is a better shot of the 10mm. These are the ones mentioned earlier in the thread that shot pretty poorly. You can see the gas cutting on the base, and no lube. I think they shot better before, but may have softened over the last year or two.

165238

Last pic is some of the Keiths that shot OKish. I don't know if these were the better or worse grouping ones, but you can get a look at them anyway. The RD265s that weren't shooting looked good, not sure why they weren't shooting well for me. May have to try them again.

165239