.45 cal Boolit length for 50 cal sabot

[plinky56]

Hey all....been a longish winter and trying to finish my last project b4 springtime. I hunt in PA, special regs, and use a CVA inline, 1:28 twist, BH209, 90gs and my lyman keith 454424 pistol bullet in a harvester crush rib sabot(sized twice to .452). Casts right at 265gr with COWW and is almost exactly at .701" in length. Super accurate for me for early season and regular season as well, with minimal clean up. Greatly accurate game getter with 1/2 inch hole in and 3/4 out, and it always exits! Here is my problem. I want to use this boolit for a TC Hawken my pop built in the 70's with it's bastard 1:48 twist but it won't shoot better than 6" at 50 yds. Went to the Berger bullets twist rate calculator and it shows a 1.15 result and marginal stability,(bc=.21/dia=.452/gr=265/length=.7/fps=1400). Tried from 60gr goex black thru 100gr and no joy! So, i'm thinking I need to try shorter boolits, according to the calculator, .6" and shorter. Problem is, can't seem to find information on lengths of cast boolits, with a nice meplat for the Pops TC for late flintlock deer season. Anyone have measured lengths/mold numbers for 45 cal that casts around .6" so I can make the 'best guess' b4 I shell out for 'yet another' mold that I need? If you could send the bullet length my way, i'd appreciate it. And as always, suggestions/comments are very welcome. Thanks

[johnson1942]

you gun will shoot anything from a 200 grain bullet to a 400 grain bullet in a sabot. the 400 grain could even do 500 yards and keep tight groups. i would use cast bullets in a sabot that works in your gun. blackhorn 209 powder for me is the best in those inline if you have the breech plug for it. i use mmp sabots but kroger uses crushed ribs with extreem accuracy also.

[plinky56]

Well, it will shoot them but not accurately. Re-read my post. I stated that the .7 long Keith SWC is too long(for my Hawken 1:48 twist) and won't stabilize and that i'm looking for some help from anyone who has knowledge of a .45 cast boolit that is around .6 of an inch long(give or take) and the mold/maker reference number. Pretty much any 1:28 will stabilize long boolits. I'm trying to find a boolit length to shoot in my TC.

[johnson1942]

sorry i didnt go through your post with a fine tooth comb. the length of a .451 bullet for a 1/48 twist would be .5 for accuracy close and as far out as you want to shoot. the length would be the same for a .458 bullet in a orange mmp sabot for that bullet. recently i bought 200 .451 bullet in about 30 to 1 lead and reswaged to a different shape of a very short .45 long bullet of the same diam. they drive tacks in a sabot with a gun that has a twist like yours. small tight group at 100 yards. maybe this helps or doesnt.

[mooman76]

Not sure why you call a 1-48 twist a bastard twist. It is a very good twist rate, just not designed for sabot. I'm not saying it won't work, just that it is a little more difficult to find the right combination. What about a conical and dropping the sabot idea? The Lee REAL should shoot good with the 1-48 twist if you work up the right load.

[plinky56]

No disrespect for the twist rate meant. It's just what it has been called for years. I know that I need a boolit about .6 in length and that it will shoot well. I'm asking for some lengths of the boolits that you cast and what the mold maker/number is, so if you have any .45 cast around this length, please post them. Or better yet, anyone know of a chart of cast boolit dimensions, to include lengths so I'll know who offers what. It's easy to find specs on diamater, etc., but I can't seem to find the lengths that are important to getting my TC shooting well.

By the way, how long is the .50 cal, 250gr, lee real boolit?

[mooman76]

The Lee REAL comes in to different weights or lengths for most all calibers they make. I only have the 320gr in the .50 but it shoots good in my 48 twist but I don't recall if I took it all the way back to 100y or not but the length of the 320gr is .726. I hope this helps you some. Also if you end up trying the REALs some people report if they have trouble with accuracy an over powder wad usually helps considerably. You might be able to get someone here to send you some samples before you buy a mould, so less money wasted.

[John Boy]

I want to use this boolit for a TC Hawken my pop built in the 70's with it's bastard 1:48 twist but it won't shoot better than 6" at 50 yds.

Gun: .45 caliber TC Hawken with a 1:48" barrel twist:
Bullet: Hornady XTP 180 Grains .400 caliber
Sabot: Hornady supplied tan sabot, which I believe is the same as the MMP .45/.40 tan sabot
Powder: 90 Grains of Pyrodex RS.
Ignition: RWS musket cap

http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/xx6/pacobillie/target.jpg

[plinky56]

Nice target, John Boy. That's what i'm trying to accomplish with my .50 TC Hawken and a .45 cal bullet in a sabot. I have a sample of 10 each of both MMP and Harvester sabots, to allow for different barrel/bore diameters/bullet combos. Now all I need is a good .452 dia cast boolit of .600 long or just a little sorter. I prefer cast lead with a wider meplat, perhaps a Keith type swc or a rnfp. Anyone out there cast .45 cal pistol boolits and willing to post the lengths of what you cast?

[johnson1942]

now im going to give you something else to consider for your 50 cal 1/48 twist rifle. get a 50 cal mold for a real or mini ball type bullet that is about 1.7 to 1.75 long. then resize to .492 diam. the push through resizers are real real cheap. make the bullet out of pure lead or 30 to 1. or any wheres in between that. single wrap with 18 pound freezer wrap paper and if your bore is a little larger than .50 then 20 pound computer paper. also you could dry wrap two wraps of number nine paper also. put over a 60 thousands fiber wad on the powder and about 80 grains of your favorite powder. this will shoot very very accurate and you can cast and not bother with any sabot. many of here on cast bollits are doing this or something very similar with great results. loads easier that sabots, hits harder and just as accurate.

[plinky56]

Thanks johnson1942, for your info. My 1:48 twist won't even stabilize a .7" boolit from 60-100grains black. Can't see that a 1.75" slug will do any better. I'll try most anything but am trying to educate myself to what my gun likes/doesn't like, and this twist does not like long boolits.

[C. Latch]

Nice target, John Boy. That's what i'm trying to accomplish with my .50 TC Hawken and a .45 cal bullet in a sabot. I have a sample of 10 each of both MMP and Harvester sabots, to allow for different barrel/bore diameters/bullet combos. Now all I need is a good .452 dia cast boolit of .600 long or just a little sorter. I prefer cast lead with a wider meplat, perhaps a Keith type swc or a rnfp. Anyone out there cast .45 cal pistol boolits and willing to post the lengths of what you cast?

I can tell this thread is frustrating you.

Give me a minute and I'll get some lengths for you.

[plinky56]

Anyone cast soft lead lee r.e.a.l. boolits in .50cal, 250gr? Iffn' you do and could spare a few to try in my TC, please let me know.

[C. Latch]

Lee 452-200-swc (H&G 68 clone) 0.646"
Noe 452-230-HP (casts 250 grains as a flat point) 0.649"
Lee 452-255-rf (casts about 262 with WW) 0.652"

Look at the pictures of various Lee .45 bullets and you can see that several of them are a bit shorter than what I have posted above:
http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/hand-gun-bullet-molds/

[C. Latch]

Anyone cast soft lead lee r.e.a.l. boolits in .50cal, 250gr? Iffn' you do and could spare a few to try in my TC, please let me know.

I've used them in .45 and .54 caliber. Can't help you with the .50s.

But I can tell you that the driving bands on the REAL are very thin and don't seem to want to hold up well to heavier charges. Sure, 50-60 grains is enough powder to kill a deer, but if you're like me and want a bit more speed, the REAL design may not work for you. I added a tiny bit of tin to mine and that didn't seem to help much.

My suggestion - and I am doing this myself - is to forget about hunting with a 1-48" barrel and go to a faster twist. If you want to hunt with a 48" twist, you'll just have to tinker until you find a suitable load. I'd try the Lee 452-200-rf if I was in your shoes.

[mooman76]

The .50 is more than capable to take deer with roundball and do it accurately. Also mentioned earlier about using a minie, the minies do not fit into the same formula as regular conicals because of the hollow base and most of the weight being forward.

[mooman76]

I measured a couple bullets. One is a 220gr conical Lee 456-220 1R. It would need sized but the length is .601 and would have to be sized down to .452. I have another about the same but it's a flat point and measures .602. I haven't located the mould yet. It looks like a Lee though. The last is TL452-230-2R. I couldn't find an actual bullet to measure but the cavity was about .605 and 230gr bullet.

[plinky56]

Thanks mooman76, not frustrated, just trying to get a boolit around .600 in length. If you find your flat point @ .602, let me know which one it is, and thanks for posting. I'm going to get this TC to shoot well and you guys are helping. Appreciate the info.

[johnson1942]

man my mind must have been somewheres else when i typed that out. i had my calculator in my hand and i put a one in front of each number i intended to type, why i dont know. just take the number 1 off what i wrote and the math should do it right. their is no way 1 1/48 twist 50 would shoot a 800 to 900 grain bullet. sorry.

[koger]

I have 4 various .50 TC barrels, hawkens and renegades, that all shoot the 350-385 grain maxi ball or maxi hunter into tiny little groups at 50 and 100yds, with 85-90grains of 2ffg black, why not just go this route??

[mooman76]

Thanks mooman76, not frustrated, just trying to get a boolit around .600 in length. If you find your flat point @ .602, let me know which one it is, and thanks for posting. I'm going to get this TC to shoot well and you guys are helping. Appreciate the info.

My mistake. Turns out the round flat point is a 44 but Lee does make a 200gr RF 452 diameter and since it is 45 instead of 44 that make it slightly shorter than the .600 452-200-RF.

[plinky56]

I'm sure your guns shoot Maxi balls well, mine do not. Thanks to all who helped out. I compiled a list of various moulds to include bullet diameter/lengths and believe i'll go with either a lee 200gr rf or a lee 255gr rf, as this puts me in the correct stabilization rate per twist of barrel for the velocities they'll shoot. Thanks again to all for your willingness to help out and the knowledge you have given me and this post. I'll post back after I've tested a decent combo and learn just how to post pics of targets.