8 x 57 hardcast loads

[lcg119]

I am interested in trying some cast bullet loads for my Yugo M48. Unfortunately, casting my own bullets is not an option, so I will purchase them. I have found some economical, hardcast 170 gr. bullets of the correct diameter (.324").....so now I have a few questions.

1) What would be a good powder for this ? These are non-GC bullets, pre-lubed and rated for up to 1600 fps, with smokeless powder.

2) Obviously, the loads will be very light (to stay at or below 1600 fps). So, filler may well be necessary. What type should I use ? PSB has been recommended to me. I like to keep things simple....so, is there a powder I could use, that will give acceptable results, without using filler ? I want no risks of hangfires or double ignition...so if there is something available, it must be safe in small charges.

3) Is this a stupid idea ? My reasons for attempting this are simply to save $ on bullets and powder (smaller charges)...while producing an accurate load for general target shooting. Is this a workable idea...or should I stick to jacketed bullets ?

My thanks for any assistance on this. Cheers.

[Bodydoc447]

try 12.0 grains of red dot or 16.0 grains of 2400 with those boolits. You might be surprised how well they shoot. I have a Turk Mouser that really likes these. I just set the sight for 300 meters and I am right on at 100 with my Lee .323" sized boolits. No fillers needed for my plinking loads.

You will get lots of advice here. I have a big box of turk 8mm ammo I have pulled down for components. So I use the corrosive primed brass with my boolits and powder. My wife's roses like the Turk powder. Still haven't done anything with the pulled boolits yet.

Doc

[junkbug]

lcg119;

This is not a foolish idea at all. Less recoil, and expense, plus they will shoot lower, so you can adjust the issue open sight to correct for the point of impact. With surplus ammo, your almost always ghooting high to start, so no easy adjustment is possible.

Accurate 5744, and SR 4759 are well known light load powders. I do not have any load info handy right now, but others may offer some. The DuPont Powder and Accurate powder web sites may help.

Sean

[Buckshot]

...........Plainbased boolits do not fare very well in the smaller calibers, so you're wise to stay with light loads. Also a 'hardcast' slug, unless it fits well can be a headache, where a softer one might do better. .

I would stick to the faster powders and go no slower then maybe SR4759. Any of the listed pistol/shotgun powders, starting with about 8.0grs and working up should do okay.

The only small bore plain based slug I've used was the 130gr Lyman 311410, and following my own advise it did well in several 30 cals up to the 7.65x53 Argentine.

.................Buckshot

[SharpsShooter]

...........Plainbased boolits do not fare very well in the smaller calibers, so you're wise to stay with light loads. Also a 'hardcast' slug, unless it fits well can be a headache, where a softer one might do better. .

I would stick to the faster powders and go no slower then maybe SR4759. Any of the listed pistol/shotgun powders, starting with about 8.0grs and working up should do okay.

The only small bore plain based slug I've used was the 130gr Lyman 311410, and following my own advise it did well in several 30 cals up to the 7.65x53 Argentine. That slug dropped at .314".

.................Buckshot

Buckshot,

I'm also thinking about cast in my 1943 K98. You say plain base boolits are not usually a good choice. Why, and further what boolit design do you like best, loads, etc.

Regards
:coffeecom

[lcg119]

He may mean that plain-based bullets (hard cast bullets, without gas checks) do not do well....because of velocity issues. Hard cast bullets, from my understanding, need to be kept below 1600 fps...in order to prevent severe lead fouling in the barrel. Also, with the pressures required to push non gas-checked bullets above 1600....the gases attack the bullet base and lube grooves. With light loads, this problem can be prevented. I am also considering using gas-check bullets, which can be loaded up to about 2000 fps....but so far, I have not found any already - manufactured ones that are much cheaper than the jacketed bullets I normally use. So, I will probably go with "plain base" bullets with light loads....at or below 1600 fps.

My understanding also is that some types of fillers will serve the purpose of gas checks, allowing higher velocities....but the whole subject of fillers is a controversial one. In some cases, fillers can cause (potentially) dangerous pressure spikes.

I am still researching the matter...trying to decide what to do. Right now, I am looking at the 170 gr. hard cast bullets, with 16 gr. of Alliant 2400 (suggested by Bodydoc). I do not know the velocity....but I have been assured that this is safe. 8 gr. of Alliant Unique has also been suggested, with dacron fibrefill filler....with the same bullet. Apparently, the A 2400 load doesn't require filler - so I am leaning in this direction, to start.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

I'm also thinking about cast in my 1943 K98. You say plain base boolits are not usually a good choice. Why, and further what boolit design do you like best, loads, etc.

Regards
:coffeecom

............I can't state any scientific examples to back up my statement. Just observations and thereby my theory. In pistols you can get by with plain based slugs to a certain level before accuracy fails, and also you're troubled by leading.

By the simple substitution of a GC on a boolit's base you can take the same boolit cast of the same alloy (that was failing) and go another couple hundred FPS, before you have to switch to a harder alloy. That is if further velocity gains are possible.

Same thing in a rifle. Before jacketed bullets ALL were plain based, or possibly in some cases had a card wad under the slug. At the same time, the only propellant was BP and as a consequence velocities are what we consider nowadays as low.

To my way of thinking once a pressure sufficient to affect the bullet is reached, it begins to fail. Fail how, I can't say. I have personally recovered 58 cal Minie' bullets which had been gas cut, due to too hard an alloy and not sealing. I've not recovered a plain based slug I've fired that display the same thing. But I havn't loaded and fired many PB'd slugs beyond a certain level.

It could be that the high pressure behind a PB cast lead slug merely pushes past the drive bands, even if they're sealed? If you take a steel pipe with 1/4" walls rated for X psi, and then drill a hole to thin the wall to a critical thinness, it will rupture there.

So then a PB cast lead slug has no GC (which is subtsantially stronger then the alloy it's stuck on), at a certain point the pressure behind the boolit may simply push past the drive bands in one or more places. Obviously this area IS the weak link with a cast slug? Since the pressure behind the boolit is exerting equal force in all directions you would think that the drive bands would rupture evenly all the way around? If not why not, if there are no casting imperfections on the cast slug?

Whatever the mechanisim that is at work, placing a GC on the slug as I mentioned above will correct it. There are many jacketed bullets out there with exposed lead at their bases, yet they shoot just as fast and accurately as those with no exposed lead. The similarities between the two again point to possible gas escape or bullet damage, as in this example both interpose the very much tougher copper alloy jacket between themselves and the barrel wall. The exposed lead at the base doesn't matter at all. Just like a GC, although the GC to a much lessor extent in bearing (or helping seal) the boolit's base.

So it's a fact that PB slugs WILL shoot and shoot well, it's just that they can't be pushed as hard as one with a GC, or one with a Full Length Gas Check ie: Jacketed.

As to which boolits I like best in the 8mm, I have had success with every one I've tried to date. I have the Lee C323-175R, the 2 Lyman 323470 & 471 at 165 and 205grs respectively. I also have an 8mm slug I designed as a custom deal with Lee for a rather blunt nosed 2 diameter 240gr boolit. In the 8mm, you don't have a huge number to select from.

Most any load that does well in the 30-06 will do double duty in the 8mm.

.............Buckshot

[drinks]

I use the Lee C324-175-1R in my 8x51R, aka , .32sp.
IMR 4227 does good, but takes 17gr to do 1600fps, I have even better results with Herco, 11gr gives 1600fps and at least as good or better accuracy.
I have been using Herco since the early '60's for shotgun and pistol and rifle where a medium weight bullet at medium velocity was the object.
I like it better than Unique or Universal and it does not take as much as IMR4227 ,2400 or H110.
I do not understand why so few people use Herco now, It has done well for me for over 40 years.
In the .38-40 and .44-40 it duplicates the 180 and 200gr factory loads with 9gr and lower pressures than Unique or Universal, should do ok in .45 Colt , too.

[lcg119]

Oddly enough, after doing a bit more research on this matter, one load for which I have found a (reloading manual) reference uses probably one of the slowest powders on the market. Specifically, with a 170 gr. cast bullet, it calls for 49.1 grains of Accurate 8700....to produce 1633 fps (24" test barrel). This at a pressure of less than 24,000 PSI. This charge fills the case a bit more than 95 %, which is desirable. Accurate 8700 is one low-density powder...that's for sure ! A grannule of this stuff must be mostly air....

Still, the numbers look very good for this powder. I might try it for laughs....though it won't save anything (as regards powder weight used per charge).

[Buckshot]

..............The very slow 50 BMG and 20mm cannon powders do well in some applications. Re: 8x57 one of my favorite loads uses TCCI 5020 ball, which is slower then WC860 or WC872 (and these are slower then 4831).

The load is 57.0grs under the 240gr cast slug. Velocity from a 29" military barrel is 1950 fps and it's clean and VERY accurate. Pressure is low.

..............Buckshot

[Junior1942]

Still haven't done anything with the pulled boolits yet.
DocDoc, when I get my 38 Turk scout rifle built I'd like to buy or trade you for those 8mm pulled bullets. I have one of those nifty Harbor Freight cut-off machines, and I'll slice of the noses and see if the bullets will then work for hunting.

[1mauser]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am interested in trying some cast bullet loads for my Yugo M48. Unfortunately, casting my own bullets is not an option, so I will purchase them. I have found some economical, hardcast 170 gr. bullets of the correct diameter (.324").....


Try to get some bullets from Gardners they have 8mm bullets with GC
http://gardnerscache.com/lead_rifle_bullets.html

[Junior1942]

http://gardnerscache.com/lead_rifle_bullets.html[/url]
Yeah, I ordered an $8 box of 8mm bullets that sounded like a bargain. Then they charged $7.70 shipping + a $3.00 handling charge. So the box of bargain bullets will cost me $18.70, not a bargain.

[Bullshop]

Yeah, I ordered an $8 box of 8mm bullets that sounded like a bargain. Then they charged $7.70 shipping + a $3.00 handling charge. So the box of bargain bullets will cost me $18.70, not a bargain.
Junior 1942
Dont blame the shipper for the cost of shipping. He cant do anything about it, believe me I have tried.
Many times on an order of a single box of boolits the PO get more than I do.

Now with the flat rate boxes we offer up to 50 lbs of product for the one shipping fee. Thats 50lbs of the one design or your choice of any combination of about 130 different designs we regulerly run on auction arms.

At one time shipping was an insignificant part of a mail order purchase but those days are gone unless somebody figgures out how to power an engine piston or turbine with urine!!!
BIC/BS

[bruce drake]

My preferred 200 yard cast bullet target load for my Yugo M48 is 13.0gr of Red Dot over either Lee's 170gr Roundnose or Herters 323179 (Herter's copy of Lyman's #323366) which is a 180gr spitzer mold that duplicates the military FMJ. The Lee is a great workhorse load but the BC is pretty low (.216) compared to the Herters (.375) and I like the longer range accuracy capabilities. If I do my part in seating the spitzer bullets the bullets don't suffer the tendency of being off-center which can really impact the Herter's accuracy capability.

My question to others is the availability of Lyman's heavier #323471 which is a 214gr or thier 323378 which is a 242gr roundnose beast. Lyman's websitre don't carry them and I've seen them come up on E-bay very rarely.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

Junior,

THose FMJs may be steel-cored so hunting with them may not be worthwhile if you cut the tip off them looking for a lead core.

Bruce

[Buckshot]

..........For the number of 8mm rifles that have been sold in the past 15 years you'd think that the main line mould makers would get a clue? They all make only one and RCBS's is a special order I think.

http://www.fototime.com/29A646FD8B4A5E4/standard.jpg

That one in the middle, the 323471 was discontinued some years back and I relied on a friend's use of his mould to make some for me. I don't think there is anything extra special about it accuracy wise as the Lyman 165 gr 323470 will engrave and shoot just as well. Longer range appears to be it's forte'. Kind of a hermorphrodite looking thing.

Anyway, some number of years back, maybe 5 or so, the design appeared in the Midway catalog. A buddy and I immediately ordered a couple. That big honker on the left is from another long ago discontinued Lyman design, and one that in my mind deserved to be dropped :D Fully 3/4 of the nose DID NOT touch anything, and as a consequence neither he nor me could get it to hit anything, excpet eventually the ground. It did launch with authority though.

http://www.fototime.com/982F406A87D7DAC/standard.jpg
Above is the slug I designed along with Wally Bator to kind of fill the heavy hitter end of things. Nominal wieght is 240grs and it drops from the mould at .326". It was a custom run done about 1-1/2 to 2 years ago. It has proven to be a very accurate slug for me.

I have a nice M88/14/35 Turked commission rifle and with a full case (57.0grs) of TCCI 5020 ball it goes 1950 and the charge burns as clean as anything. Somehow of other I decided that it oughta do 2300 fps. I have another Turk, in the form of a M38/46 with a 24" bbl and decided to use that as the platform.

For that I used WC852 as the powder. I finally did reach 2300 fps, but somewhere along the way it managed to split the stock behind the action and through the wrist a little, HA! Beat me up a bit too.

There are currently 2 mould designs avail that are good heavyweights. Both are Oldfeller designs and are offered by Mid-South Shooters Supply. One is the Karabiner and then there is a heavier one at about 240grs.

I have gotten very good accuracy from the 175gr Lee BTW. In fact it was so good I jumped on the 6 cavity group buy that is just now finishing up, or has finished up. I'm sure looking forward to that as casting them one at a time is very tiresome with 5-6 8mm's to try and feed.

.................Buckshot

[STREAK55]

JUNIOR 1942,
HI,THIS IS JIM GARDNER,(GARDNERSCACHE)YES YOU DID ORDER BULLETS FROM ME BUT YOU DID NOT READ THE WEBSITE CORRECTLY,I SENT YOU AN E-MAIL SUN THE 27th EXPLAINING YOU OVERPAID ON SHIPPING BY CHOOSING A FLAT RATE BOX($7.70)INSTEAD OF THE FLAT RATE ENVELOPE($3.85)AND A CHECK FOR THE DIFFERENCE OF$5.35 WAS SENT IN YOUR ORDER TODAY.
I BELIEVE YOU OWE ME AND THE OTHERS ON THIS FORUM AN APOLOGY BY JUMPING THE GUN AND POINTING FINGERS.BAD NEWS TRAVELS FAST,I'VE BEEN IN BUSINESS FOR 12 YEARS AND CUSTOMER SATISFACTION IS OUR GOAL,READ YOUR E-MAILS ONCE IN A AWHILE.
STREAK55

[Junior1942]

Well, Jim, you are 100% right. I apologize.

[Buckshot]

.............Hey Jim, welcome to the board.

............Buckshot

[STREAK55]

BUCKSHOT,
Thanks for the welcome to the board,I wish I had more time to spend on the computer,as well as at the range shooting.We're getting ready for a gun show at Crown Point,In this weekend,hope to see someone from the board there.
STREAK55

[drinks]

Streak55;
It still seems a very high price for cast bullets, compared to the prices of major brand jacketed bullets in their lower priced lines, I understand the problems of shipping, I just do not understand why people buy something they can produce themselves at a much lower cost.

[Junior1942]

Drinks, the cheapest jacketed bullets I can find are the Rem 185 bullets @ ~14 cents each + shipping. Streaks are less than 10 cents each plus shipping.

[ejjuls]

Hey guys,

I don't recall seeing the Saeco mold in 8mm talked about. Mybe I missed it...I do get distracted at times!

Saeco's 190grn 8mm is a fine bullet in my opinion. My friend and I run these out of Turks and M-48 Yugo rifles. They just plain run great. This round and bullet combo has been the easiest combo to get super consistent results with great accuracy out of every caliber bullet combo I have played with. Typically we size the slugs at .325" and lube with Felix. IMR-4198 powder and a standard CCI primer. I believe the charge is 30.5 grns - no filler....I'll have to grab notes to be totally sure..... We have tried various alloys and found the harder Lyman #2 performed best for us. Softer alloys tended to give good accuracy but with higher Std Dev figures with spotty leading at times when pushed too fast. A good 2100fps and a tight accurate group (avg 1.5" five-shot groups at 100yds - benched scoped rifle)....what more can a guy ask for? I am no "super" shot - but for me - This is tight enough for hunting and plinking.

No animals fell to this combo yet....gotta get a tag first! The hunting alloy we tested that performed the best was just plain WW metal with no special treatment. Improvised media showed excellent expansion and good retention. I can't quantify more - as we were just playing around and were not taking notes.

Anyway - thought I would throw that out there for everyone. I do have one observation - I sure wish there was more load data for some of the molds that are easily obtained by us casters. It seems a shame to me to leave so much to educated guess work. It would be nice to have a manual for Saeco molds, (Lyman already does) and Lee and RCBS as well as NEI, etc. There are times when I feel "not as sure" about minimum and max load values as I would like - before the trigger is pulled. One of my little pet-peeves and wishes...
Happy shooting everyone
Eric

[Buckshot]

............I does seem that the Saeco moulds getting talked about the most are the 30's and 35's. Without a doubt Saeco produces a super mould. So far as load data goes, very little of it is 'balls to the ball' if you'll forgive the phrase :D You can pretty much use anyones 180gr cast data for someone else's cast data of that or similar weight slug.

Even using jacketed data, mostly at their beginning charge or a bit less can provide a place to start. With cast there are variables that play a part in accuracy besides who cut the cavities in the blocks. So what the boolit looks like can play a part, but I personally think it plays a rather minor part after such things as the powder burn rate, charge, caseneck tension, alloy and lube.

................Buckshot

[ejjuls]

Buckshot,

I agree totally - in fact that is how I load when I do not have a "pet" load. Things that make me nervous anymore is some of the pressure trace talk and firearm disasters I have been hearing about lately. The phenomenon (spelling) is associated with cast bullets and "large" capacity cases and slow powders. I have the links stored some where in my mass of links. Anywho - I was just trying to make the point that if there was more load data specifically for these common available molds and the calibers they are associated with - then my assumptions and load practices would make me personally feel better. I think Lyman does a good job - I think they lack the "powder" selection most of us use but none the less they do a good job. Lee is good too, their data is somewhat regurgitated at times but they do good too - My issue with them is the powders they use are powders that I do not have! I could go on and on....but I don't want to steer this 8mm topic a-stray.

On that subject - Buckshot - what is your opinion or experience with the "8mm maximum" bullet you mentioned. I see there is a "dud" floating out there that a board member picked up in another post......I am interested in how this gets resolved - my purchase has been delayed pending on the outcome. Are the bullets "good" in the accuracy dept.? If you could please offer some insight I would appreciate it. I am interested in this particular bullet for a pet Turk project I have begging for a heavy cast bullet.
Thanks Everyone!
I seem to read more than I type at times....sorry for not being as active in the posts as others....
Eric

[Junior1942]

....the "8mm maximum" bullet you mentioned. I see there is a "dud" floating out there that a board member picked up in another post......I am interested in how this gets resolved - my purchase has been delayed pending on the outcome.I sold that mold to another member. I did, however, after selling the mold, get an answer to my email to Lee about the oversized 8mm max mold. They wanted me to return it to them. Because they did that, I'm going to order another one from Midsouth. If it's way over sized, back to Lee it goes.

[ejjuls]

Sounds like it is worth me giving one a try too.
My interest is the performance others have experienced with it?
Worth a try though
Eric