"'splain something to me, Lucy".

[Captain O]

Why, in the name of all sanity, do people insist upon equating caliber with their masculine virility? It seems that many people (the preponderance of which, seem to be male) believe, no, insist, that in order for a projectile fired in anger (read: self-defense) has to be the size of a railroad box car in order to be effective at stopping an aggressor.

As of late, the consensus seems to favor shot placement and penetration. Yet some of the senior members of this forum live by and swear that the Thompson-La Garde tests of 1904 were well conducted and are the only reliable predictor of projectile performance.

Care to 'splain this one to my Lucy? :veryconfu

[Beagle333]

'Cause my .480 Ruger is just so much superior to anyone's 9mm that it should be completely obvious!!!! :-P:-P:-P

[TXGunNut]

Gee, this thread's starting out well.

[Scharfschuetze]

Where did this guy come from? Has he ever actually used a handgun in the real world of dark alleys or the tropics? If he ever had, he would quickly note that when in a gun fight with a handgun you ALWAYS wish you had a bigger gun. Trust me on that as it comes from experience.

[Captain O]

Let me see... The 5.56 has been in service more years than the 7.62 x 51 and the 9mm Luger is still serving. Yes, I have used a firearm against people, and I have held people with 3 calibers: .44 S&W Special, 10mm Auto and .357 S&W Magnum. They all worked.

I was a sailor and the son of a WW2/Korean Conflict UDT/NRT BM1 P.N.A to Chief 13 times.

Get off your high horse.

[kentuckyshooter]

You will have to ask some one else about the macho thing. Im just as happy with my 9x19 as i am with my 45acp. I will say that there is posibly a psycological aspect of when u set the 2 cartrages side by side even though you know both are adiquite for self defence. The biger of the 2 gives u the warm fuzzys and that little voice in the back of your mind tells u that it should work better becouase it is biger. A larger sometimes more powerful round could easly inpart a greater scence of security in the knowlage that what ever it hits its gona hit hard and make a big hole.

This brings me to my second point. Yes shot placement is key no matter the caliaber. A 22 in the eye is more efective than a 12guage slug that misses compleatly. That being said under stress of a self defence situation and the possibily that the attacker feels no pain due to drugs or what have you a wounding or glancing blow from the slug is going to have more of an efect on the attacker than the same shot from a 22. It all boils down to what the shooter can safely handle and feels comfortable trusting their life to. For some the 22 is suficent and theres plenty of cases of 1 shot stops. Some fell like anything less than 40 cal. Is inadiquite and leave the small cal. Stuff for plinkin.

[MT Chambers]

I agree with Beagle!

[Uncle R.]

I agree with Beagle!


Not me.
The .480 is for sissies.
I would only carry a .500 S&W.

"Why?" I pretend to hear you ask...
Because they don't make a .560 S&W.
Yet.

:bigsmyl2:

Uncle R.

[trails4u]

Captain....at 31 posts, you've sure made an introduction. Good luck here, my friend....if you intend to stick around. If not, then good luck wherever the wind may blow. IF you do plan to stick around, I hope you'll cool your jets and allow yourself the opportunity to learn here. It's a pretty great group of folks, with a knowledge base that rivals any I've seen, and generosity that will blow your mind. Don't miss out....

[Texantothecore]

I am holding out for an S&W in .580.

[country gent]

While I dont use calibers to determine my maculinity, I do believe in using the BEST CHOICE in my opinion and confidence for a given set of circumstances and possible needs. Something to think about on this thread. I own and use from 22lr to 44 mag, including contender barrels in 222 rem and 357 herret. All have their uses and place. Most consider the 12 gauge a great home defense gun and it is as long as the person using it knows what he or she is doing. Same with a carry gun knowledge and readieness is most important then shot placement. Alot depends on when where and how I can carry as to what I carry. Taking this thread from debate to cofrontations gets nowhere

[Uncle R.]

I am holding out for an S&W in .580.

Oh, sure.
Now I have caliber envy.

:bigsmyl2:

Uncle R.

[castalott]

This can be a can of worms... But welcome to our forum..

To answer your question.....99.999% of us are armchair warriors. I very much prefer and hope to stay that way. But we have all read the articles and stories about crazy people who do naughty things and are on something. We have also read about the exploits of some very brave military men that used the 45 auto to great effect and want to be brave and good like them.

Do I have any idea what works in real life? No. No idea. I know what I read though. The Marines in the Pacific Campaign thought the 45 a wonderful thing for stopping Japanese Soldiers with 1 shot.

Then you have the true story of a Japanese soldier shot 3 times in the back with a 30-06 and still managed to outrun his attacker. He surely died later but was superman for a limited time.

Then you have the James Bond story ( fiction- yes I know) where he is being asked why he carries a wimpy Beretta 25acp. He replies that he shoots for the left eye and never misses. Mere mortals would never have that ability so we want more power.

Then you have the question that was common years ago. Would you rather face Woody Allen struggling to lift a 44 mag revolver or Clint Eastwood with a gleam of death in his eye and a 22 derringer held absolutely steady?

I would also say stories and articles sell magazines. Everyone would sell you the 'truth' for a price... Gun manufacturers will do the same.

See how convoluted I am? My dad was in Germany in WW2. He drove a wrecker and said he had with him all the time a Garand, a grease gun ( in 45 auto) , a 45 on his hip, and a Mauser 32acp in his boot. I guess that would be what the Navy calls a defense in depth.

So I have wasted your time ( and we have so little on this rock) and I still don't know....

Dale

[Hickory]

Years ago, I had the rare opportunity to talk to a man who had been in - as he called it- a few gun fights.
The thing that sticks out in my memory is this quote, " If you shoot an excited person with a 9 mm or smaller gun, be prepared to fight him or chase him down."

[Big Dangle]

Its all about the adrenaline. I remember one day as a young private in a fire fight bad guy took off I fired like 20-30 rounds at him from the SAW then he disappeared in an alley. My heart sank and could feel my squad leader staring at me, I remember thinking ohhhhh man I'm in trouble. Luckly another squad recovered said bad guy with no less then 9 holes in him.

[NavyVet1959]

Speaking from personal experience here...

When the adrenaline is up, you might not feel getting hit...

Was shot with a .38 special many years ago... I ended up beating the crap out of him, only to notice I had been shot when the cops were taking him away.

[shoot-n-lead]

Years ago, I had the rear opportunity to talk to a man who had been in - as he called it- a few gun fights.
The thing that sticks out in my memory is this quote, " If you shoot an excited person with a 9 mm or smaller gun, be prepared to fight him or chase him down."

That is complete bull!

There have been too many people, good guys and bad buys, killed with a 9mm...to give this any credence, whatsoever.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Where did this guy come from? Has he ever actually used a handgun in the real world of dark alleys or the tropics? If he ever had, he would quickly note that when in a gun fight with a handgun you ALWAYS wish you had a bigger gun. Trust me on that as it comes from experience.

I suspect that few people on the board have ever had to defend themselves with handguns, even in America, and perhaps fewer than say so. It is a lack I have never felt in numerous tropical dark alleys. I think the odds on survival would be somewhat more improved by carrying a portable heart defribulator or instructions on the Heimlich manoeuvre, but nobody ever got his rocks off on fantasy about being defribulated or manoeuvred.

Nonetheless the gun that would work best is the one a person actually has on him at the time, and some of the current mega-handguns, while conforming excellently well to the Thompson-La Garde's and most other versions of stopping power, are incompatible with many forms of dress. La Garde did emphasize shot placement quite strongly, and the speed of interrupted followup shots could be important too. There isn't much of high horse in that.

[NavyVet1959]

That is complete bull!

There have been too many people, good guys and bad buys, killed with a 9mm...to give this any credence, whatsoever.

And a lot of people have been killed with a .380 ACP. As we say so often, it's the shot placement that counts. I lucked out and the bullet only went into muscle -- no major blood vessels, bones, or organs. If it had been a .357 mag instead of the .38 special, I probably would have felt it regardless of the adrenaline. It would have also probably exited rather messily. :(

Smaller calibers at weaker loadings might still prove deadly, but they might not stop the attack. What we want is to *stop* the person. Of course, *death* is a good stopper. In the end, carry what you feel comfortable carry. If I'm dressed up (e.g. clean jeans and clean t-shirt), I will probably be carrying some form of M1911 -- possibly in .45 ACP, possibly in 10mm. If I'm doing some woodwork and generating a lot of sawdust and possibly be going out after that, I'll probably be carrying a Glock 29 with an extended (i.e. G20 15-round) magazine with these:

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/lee-tl410-210-swc-resized-10mm-loaded-320w.jpg

Never know when you might stumble across a hog... :)

[NC_JEFF]

On the side of logic, it's difficult to argue that a larger diameter wound chanell isn't most effective. But a carry weapon always comes down to personal choice and I'm never going to argue that you should carry what I prefer because your choice is obviously inferior. I just want everybody to carry something. Your carry gun should be able to end imminent threat of death, great bodily harm or sexual assault. Most every assailant will change his intentions as soon as you start firing, (most not all), regardless of the size of the hole in your barrel. I personally carry a 1911 in 45ACP or an SP101 in 38+P but I believe any 9 or would save me just as well. I'm just glad a growing population of citizens carrying regardless of what their choice of carry gun is. The end.

[labradigger1]

My opinion.
Rule # 1, use enough gun
Rule #2, double tap
That's it.

[NavyVet1959]

My opinion.
Rule # 1, use enough gun
Rule #2, double tap
That's it.

Rule #3, properly dispose of any bodies produced (i.e. clean up your mess).

[Hickory]

That is complete bull!

:holysheep

[William Yanda]

Firearm corollary of the 'Bigger is better" theorem. Sometimes applied to velocity, where faster is perceived as advantageous.
Bill

[buckwheatpaul]

Captain O, I have carried everything from a 44 Mag to the puny 25 acp(backup gun) during my 35+ years of L.E. experiene. Back then Cops just loved to experience with various gun of the month.....I have seen literally many 100's of deaths involving firearms with many different types of firearms. I will assure each person was dead wheather it was a 25 acp or a 30-06!

I agree that shot placement is important....but faith in your weapon is just as important because if you can shoot a 9mm and not a 44 mag. then you are better with the 9mm. The one factor not mentioned is a drug crazed perk. Short of a head shot not many weapons will instantly stop a perk!

[Rick Hodges]

I watched a man who had been hit 7 times in the torso with 35 caliber hollowpoints raise his rifle at my chest, before he collapsed and died. I carried a 45acp on duty from that day forward until the department mandated I carry a 40 S&W.
I understand that no handgun is a good manstopper...but I feel better with a bigger diameter bullet. My EDC is a 40 S&W and I consider it the bare minimum. My experience colors my choices, feel free to carry what you feel is best for you. You may think it is a macho thing...for me, it seems foolish to carry what I know did not work.
Those 35 caliber bullets were all 357 Magnum fired from 4" S&W Mod 19/66's.

[flyingmonkey35]

Dude. You never saw the movie dirty Harry,?

If you didn't see it on TV its not true.

[dubber123]

Has anybody else noticed the OP has been banned already? He seemed like a testy little bugger. :)

[Hickok]

Has anybody else noticed the OP has been banned already? He seemed like a testy little bugger. :)Wow, come and gone in a couple of days! Must have been Lamont Cranston, "the Shadow!":shock:

[Hickok]

I watched a man who had been hit 7 times in the torso with 35 caliber hollowpoints raise his rifle at my chest, before he collapsed and died. I carried a 45acp on duty from that day forward until the department mandated I carry a 40 S&W.
I understand that no handgun is a good manstopper...but I feel better with a bigger diameter bullet. My EDC is a 40 S&W and I consider it the bare minimum. My experience colors my choices, feel free to carry what you feel is best for you. You may think it is a macho thing...for me, it seems foolish to carry what I know did not work.
Those 35 caliber bullets were all 357 Magnum fired from 4" S&W Mod 19/66's.Rick, I can understand where that shoot out would have a major influence on your opinion. Good advice from experience!

[castalott]

I have a book with the autopsy photos of a man on drugs who was shot over 50 times with 9mm,. He was high on something and ran away from the cops to die of a heart attack trying to kick start his Harley. Many of those shots were center mass too!

A relation of mine, a Cook County Deputy by trade, had to put a loose pit bull down. An almost perfect between the eyes shot ( it drifted a little to one side) and the dog went down and stood back up! It required another shot. The dog was dead with the first shot but not out. I don't know what any of this means but my relation went to the 45acp cartridge pistol that day. ( This relation was old enough to have qualified with that load and was therefore able to use it.)

An LE friend once said ( jokingly???) that he wished everyone had to carry...he wouldn't have to wonder who was and who wasn't....

I have watched enough people die...Peace on Earth and Goodwill to Men

[Texantothecore]

I carry .45 lc daily.

1. Easily reloaded.
Recoil levels which are slow. More of a push.
3. Revolvers don't jam.
4. They will stop a perp even at slower speeds.
5. They are much more fun at the range. They will shoot anything.
6. I like steel, wood and brass on my guns.

[Walkingwolf]

Why, in the name of all sanity, do people insist upon equating caliber with their masculine virility? It seems that many people (the preponderance of which, seem to be male) believe, no, insist, that in order for a projectile fired in anger (read: self-defense) has to be the size of a railroad box car in order to be effective at stopping an aggressor.

As of late, the consensus seems to favor shot placement and penetration. Yet some of the senior members of this forum live by and swear that the Thompson-La Garde tests of 1904 were well conducted and are the only reliable predictor of projectile performance.

Care to 'splain this one to my Lucy? :veryconfu
What is more of a dilemma is control issues. That one person thinks they can decide for others what is best for them. That is what most of these type debates are about. Manhood has little to do with it, a person with any size penis has to live with it, how they live with it depends on their mental health.

I don't have any cannons, but I do have larger to smaller calibers. 45 to 22, as long as the weapons function, I have no worry about the size or the speed of the projectile, nor to I list after the fanciest bullet the industry tries to push on me. Even my 44 mag if I carry I carry with moderate loads for self defense.

The most important thing about these debates I try to remember is~~I have no control over others, live, and let live. Unfortunately my attitude bothers the hell out of some people.

[FergusonTO35]

I always say that confidence and shot placement rule the day for any use of a firearm. I have killed deer with .30'06, .30 WCF, and .257 Roberts. Aimed just behind the shoulder every time, distance never more than 100 yards. In my hands the Bob loaded with a 117 grain slug at sedate .250 Savage velocity consistently anchors them faster. Now, someone else may find the same to be true with a .300 Weatherby or .458 Winchester. If so, more power to them. I'm going to stick with what works for me.

Never been in a gunfight and hopefully never will be, so my best choice of gun and caliber is at best an educated guest. I'm sticking with what I am confident with.
Over on the Ruger forum, someone asked what are your top five worst calibers for self defense. Here is my response verbatim:








Here are my top five:

1. The caliber of the gun that you don't carry
2. The caliber you never practice with
3. The caliber of an unreliable gun
4. The caliber of a gun you don't shoot well because it is too much for you to handle
5. The caliber of a gun that is carried in a manner where it is difficult to get to

I carry 9mm, .38 Special, .380 Auto, and .32 Auto depending on the activities for the day and how I am dressed. My wife's go-to home defense gun is a .22 auto pistol that has proven very reliable over the years loaded with CCI Mini Mags. She rarely practices and has small hands but she knows exactly how to operate that pistol and shoots it fairly well. It would be utterly foolish to give her anything else unless she decided to master it with practice.

[Texantothecore]

My experience is that bigger revolvers are a lot more fun than smaller defensive calibers at the range. Bigger revolvers will shoot whisper rounds as well as high speed rounds that border on the insane. They will shoot everything from lead to grits ( for wasps and hornets) to aerosal CheezWhiz. Fun stuff.

If I do meet up with a perp in the future he will be facing a good shooter with one of his fun guns which has had thousands of rounds put through it. Not a good prospect for him.

[Uncle R.]

My experience is that bigger revolvers are a lot more fun than smaller defensive calibers at the range. Bigger revolvers will shoot whisper rounds as well as high speed rounds that border on the insane. They will shoot everything from lead to grits ( for wasps and hornets) to aerosal CheezWhiz. Fun stuff.

If I do meet up with a perp in the future he will be facing a good shooter with one of his fun guns which has had thousands of rounds put through it. Not a good prospect for him.


Right to the heart of the matter.
Well said.
Any reliable gun of any reasonable caliber in the hands of a guy who's shot it a lot and performs well with it is very bad news for the assailant.
I'd rather my partner in a deadly shootout had a 9 or a .38 special that he used expertly than a .45 or .357 that he fumbled with.

Of course, if my partner were expert with the .45 - I'd like that even more.
<GRIN>

Uncle R.

[FergusonTO35]

If I were in an unavoidable gunfight my first choice would be my Marlin 1894C. I can shoot it fast with good accuracy, and it outperforms most .44 and .45 handguns.

[Lead Fred]

162780

[Texantothecore]

I have a .36 1851 navy that is nearing 700 rounds without a misfire. It is more reliable any of my semis. I picked up a Ted Cash spiral percussion cap loader because of the way it compresses the skirts of the caps I am not getting any cylinder jams. My most reliable pistol at this point. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a defensive situation. Boy is it accurate.

[Walkingwolf]

I have a .36 1851 navy that is nearing 700 rounds without a misfire. It is more reliable any of my semis. I picked up a Ted Cash spiral percussion cap loader because of the way it compresses the skirts of the caps I am not getting any cylinder jams. My most reliable pistol at this point. I wouldn't hesitate to use it in a defensive situation. Boy is it accurate.

I have carried cap, and ball on occasion, I stopped except for barbq events. My main problem if in the event of a SD event my beloved guns will be junk. Even in a justified shooting the gun will most likely be confiscated, not cleaned, and a rusted useless mess when returned.

But if C&B was all I had I would have no problem with carrying for SD.

[725]

My buddy was Unit Two of a large central NY police department, after having left my department when we were just McNuggets entering the police world. That agency had a long history of police involved shootings in which their 9mm's usually required multiple shots to control confrontations. It's a concern, as in the urban environment, the unintended impact areas are frequently populated by innocents (or at least those who haven't yet risen to the level of a threat). Multiple discharges were a concern. They switched to the .45 ACP and for years every police involved was a one shot stop incident. I don't know if that trend continued but it was more than anecdotal in it's revelations. Other friends have shot numerous folks with the 9 and now don't carry one. Just sayin'. (...... and yes, many times the 9 is fine. Lots of ways to skin a cat.)

[Abenaki]

Sure 9mm will kill ya.
But 45 acp will kill your soul! :razz:

Take care
Abenaki

[NavyVet1959]

162780

But they make a FIFTY...

http://guncrafterindustries.com/wp-content/gallery/gi-gallery/Two-Tone-M3.jpg

[CHeatermk3]

Love that 50 and the 1911 but...I must carry concealed and my 32 fits in my T-shirt's pocket. I always have it when out and about.

Always. Anymore, it hits harder than I do.

[NavyVet1959]

Love that 50 and the 1911 but...I must carry concealed and my 32 fits in my T-shirt's pocket. I always have it when out and about.

Always. Anymore, it hits harder than I do.

I figure you decide what you want to carry and then just dress around it. I'm retired, so I don't have to be concerned with dressing to fit a corporate culture anymore. Jean and a colored t-shirt with a concealment vest works for me as daily wear these days.

[Walkingwolf]

My buddy was Unit Two of a large central NY police department, after having left my department when we were just McNuggets entering the police world. That agency had a long history of police involved shootings in which their 9mm's usually required multiple shots to control confrontations. It's a concern, as in the urban environment, the unintended impact areas are frequently populated by innocents (or at least those who haven't yet risen to the level of a threat). Multiple discharges were a concern. They switched to the .45 ACP and for years every police involved was a one shot stop incident. I don't know if that trend continued but it was more than anecdotal in it's revelations. Other friends have shot numerous folks with the 9 and now don't carry one. Just sayin'. (...... and yes, many times the 9 is fine. Lots of ways to skin a cat.)

When they shoot 9 bystanders to shoot one perp they would need multiple bullets. Just sayin`

[NavyVet1959]

When they shoot 9 bystanders to shoot one perp they would need multiple bullets. Just sayin`

When I read the reports of number of rounds fired vs number of actual hits, I have to wonder if we are a bit too concerned about where our rounds might end up in a home defense situation in the event of over-penetration. Apparently, even with their abysmal hit rate, very seldom is a bystander hit by one of the bullets or even a ricochet.

[Walkingwolf]

I watched a man who had been hit 7 times in the torso with 35 caliber hollowpoints raise his rifle at my chest, before he collapsed and died. I carried a 45acp on duty from that day forward until the department mandated I carry a 40 S&W.
I understand that no handgun is a good manstopper...but I feel better with a bigger diameter bullet. My EDC is a 40 S&W and I consider it the bare minimum. My experience colors my choices, feel free to carry what you feel is best for you. You may think it is a macho thing...for me, it seems foolish to carry what I know did not work.
Those 35 caliber bullets were all 357 Magnum fired from 4" S&W Mod 19/66's.
I fired two 38 spl into a armed robber, he dropped like sack of potatoes. Both bullets hit the heart, second bullet went past the first and hit his spine. He was also shot with a 12 gauge slug by the deputy with me, the coroner ruled my shots as the fatal wounds, and the reason he dropped. The twelve gauge was a lung shot, and he fired before I did, and the perp was still standing. Both shots were fired from a K frame single action, instead of double. I grew up with SA revolvers, and never changed how I shoot.

Shot placement and penetration are what I would bet my life on.

[JWT]

Texas Ranger Bill Jordan (No Second Place Winner) talked a lot about practicing until the gun was an extension of your hand and shot placement. He also pointed out that if you knew you were going to a gunfight then you should take a shotgun. Both good advice.

[NavyVet1959]

Texas Ranger Bill Jordan (No Second Place Winner) talked a lot about practicing until the gun was an extension of your hand and shot placement. He also pointed out that if you knew you were going to a gunfight then you should take a shotgun. Both good advice.

Most arguments involving a shotgun get solved in short order... :)

[FergusonTO35]

My main problem if in the event of a SD event my beloved guns will be junk. Even in a justified shooting the gun will most likely be confiscated, not cleaned, and a rusted useless mess when returned.

That is why all my carry guns can be easily replaced if lost, stolen, or pirated by LE. I would love to add a Ruger Speed Six to the lineup but they have been discontinued for nearly 30 years and prices just keep going up on them.

[flyingmonkey35]

That is why all my carry guns can be easily replaced if lost, stolen, or pirated by LE. I would love to add a Ruger Speed Six to the lineup but they have been discontinued for nearly 30 years and prices just keep going up on them.
So you recommend to carry a HI-Point of the caliber of hour choice.

[FergusonTO35]

If that is what you are confident with, rock on! My carry lineup consists of a Kel Tec P32, Glock 42, S&W 637, and Glock 26. They can be replaced no problem if needed.

[tygar]

Cause a bullet the size of my thumb will mess u up better than one smaller than my pinky.

[44man]

I don't carry but hunt deer. I don't have a thing to say about people shooting, and never will. I appreciate all that serve and don't want them to have less then needed to be safe.
I use larger because deer will be on the ground before my barrel rise is done but that might not be the best in populated areas so judgment and experience from those that protect is needed. I don't like a nine but would I reject it? I only notice large magazines are the norm and never stop shooting is the norm.
I can only say if I used my gun against a perp, nobody could fix and clean my house, my car will be dead and maybe a hole through my walnut tree.
Why is stuff steered to people shooting so much? I don't want to do it and if I had to I would have a 1911 in .45.
I can only say if I shot someone with the .500 JRH, bring blotters. A closed casket burial. 15 shots with a nine is some toothpicks to hide holes.

[FergusonTO35]

Big firepower is very much in vogue right now, both with cops and citizens. I don't see that changing any time soon. Unfortunately, too many people view 18 rounds in the pistol, five extra mags, backup gun on the ankle, and long gun in the trunk as an acceptable substitute for practice. Yes, there are regular citizens who do this as well as cops. I am quite comfortable with 6-10 rounds in my pistol plus a reload. I also practice more than most people who carry a gun. It doesn't mean I am necessarily a better marksman than most--my bullseye ability is thoroughly average--but it does mean I have good gun handling habits, muscle memory, and confidence. I am also keenly aware of my limitations, i.e., I don't carry anything with much recoil or muzzle blast.

[tygar]

162780

"Because they don't make a 46!" Yep agree.

If fact I just ran 300 rds of lead in HP, RN & FP then 5 different boxes of 20 premium 230 +P HP, as fast as possible, checking out my S&W 4513 TSW(no rail) for CC....why, cause I like 45s & know how much better, in real world scenarios, they are for putting them down. FWIW, the MAGTECH Guardian Gold put 20 in the 10 ring at 7yds, 2nd best was the Rem PD. I was surprised, as the Hornady TAP shot best in all the other below listed carry guns. I'll try the Prems again in a clean, non leaded gun to re-confirm.
By the way, I know that some have trouble with 45s & recoil, but I find them "easy" to shoot, easy to control, & even with the light wt guns & +P, not a problem.

In 45, I carry a 345PD revolver, Kimber Ultra, Colt Officers & Cdr + now the 4513 - all lite weight 45ACPs. I also have P12, 13, 14, 15s if I want hi cap but they are difficult to carry concealed.

But - that doesn't mean I don't ever carry a 9, or even a 380(but usually as a 2nd gun) & several LW 38s.

In the summer that LC9 just fits perfectly in the cargo pocket of my shorts since the big ones are harder to keep shorts up with a belt than jeans.

As a Marine, I love the 1911 type guns & for combat, that's what I want. But, to be honest, for personal defense, I really like the revolvers with the moon clips. Yes its only 6 rounds but reloads are as fast or faster than an auto & you pull the trigger & it works, if it doesn't, pull it again & it will work. Also, no problem with contact shots against the perps body. KISS! Especially for women. I was a small arms inst & know for a fact, that revolvers are the easiest to teach, shoot & carry for a women.

But I can & do carry big guns, most of the time. Look at the shirt I'm wearing. I'ts a banded bottom Polo. In that pic I am carrying a 45. It also is the best shirt I've seen for being able to lift up with your thumb & pull your gun, all with one hand. Once it's over the gun the banded bottom holds it firm above the gun, allowing a clean draw. It's the only shirt I wear, I have about 10 of them for any occasion.

YOU need to carry what works for you & "any" gun is better than none. Whatever you carry, practice, practice, practice. Put rounds down range at contact range out as far as you can. Train as close to combat as you can, train with what you'll use. Multiple targets, fire & maneuver, from cover & concealment with moving targets if possible but for sure, with you moving.

Just make sure you don't shoot me by mistake.

[gray wolf]

It doesn't matter if the bad guy dies,
What matters is how fast he dies.

Or to be a tad more politically correct--how fast the fight stops.

Sub calibers may get bigger-- but my 45 ain't gonna get smaller.

[44man]

Excuse my memory but read stories about a war we were in where the natives used drugs and the .38 issued had no affects. I believe that is when the 1911 came in and it worked as troops were over run. The human mass made the rifle useless.
I loved the 1911 when a kid, it had the LOOK so I made a replica out of wood. I used ox blood shoe polish on the grips.
Now I have shot thousands of them, built them but never bought one for myself but to carry I would. I have been lucky to have lived in places I never needed a gun. I would have ENOUGH if I ever did.
Can a nine or .380 work? Sure, better then a stick. A .22 will kill but you need to be a dead shot under stress. Would you have a .22 for a bear attack?

[FergusonTO35]

Anybody have much experience with the Glock 36? How does it compare to a commander size 1911?

[M-Tecs]

Excuse my memory but read stories about a war we were in where the natives used drugs and the .38 issued had no affects. I believe that is when the 1911 came in and it worked as troops were over run. The human mass made the rifle useless.
I loved the 1911 when a kid, it had the LOOK so I made a replica out of wood. I used ox blood shoe polish on the grips.
Now I have shot thousands of them, built them but never bought one for myself but to carry I would. I have been lucky to have lived in places I never needed a gun. I would have ENOUGH if I ever did.
Can a nine or .380 work? Sure, better then a stick. A .22 will kill but you need to be a dead shot under stress. Would you have a .22 for a bear attack?


That was Philippine-American War. The 38 Long Colt did not stop the Moro warriors effectively. They pulled the 45 Colt peacemakers out of storage and the claim is they worked much better at stopping the Moro..

[tdoyka]

http://thearmsguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Kirsti-from-Brandon401401.jpg

is there something larger than a 500 s&w? she thinks its a wussy gun.....

[NavyVet1959]

Anybody have much experience with the Glock 36? How does it compare to a commander size 1911?

G36

length: 6.96"
height: 4.76"
barrel length: 3.77"
width: 1.1"
mag capacity: 6


RIA .22TCM/9mm double stack mag

length: 8"
height: 5.5"
barrel length: 4.25"
width: 1.4"
mac capacity: 17


RIA 1911 Mid Size .45ACP

length: 7.31"
height: 5.5 in
barrel length: 3.5"
width: (not specified, probably 1")
mag capacity: 8


RIA 1911 Compact Size .45 ACP

length: 8"
height: 5.5 in
barrel length: 4.25"
width: (not specified, probably 1")
mag capacity: 7

[NavyVet1959]

That was Philippine-American War. The 38 Long Colt did not stop the Moro warriors effectively. They pulled the 45 Colt peacemakers out of storage and the claim is they worked much better at stopping the Moro..

I seem to remember reading something about the real turning point was when the government started using 12-gauge shotguns.

Interestingly, the "Moro warriors" were just a bunch of Muslim fanatics and in one form or another, the Philippine government is still fighting those kooks.

[M-Tecs]

More info on the 38 Long Colt and it's replacement http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-revolvers/24526-38-didn-t-work-these-guys.html

[Scharfschuetze]

Interestingly, the "Moro warriors" were just a bunch of Muslim fanatics and in one form or another, the Philippine government is still fighting those kooks.

I spent some time on Mindanao Island post 911 and fortunately I carried a 1911A1 on those assignments. You are indeed correct about the issues down there. The main Muslim factions are Abu Sayyef and the Muslim Liberation Front (MLF). The Filipino Army suffers not insignificant casualties down there.

General "Black Jack" Pershing did a good job of pacifying Mindanao shortly after the Spanish American War, but it's now a place of kidnappings and other such crimes that support the terrorists, at least the last few times I was there.

[Pro Gun]

I sure like the larger calibers. A friend of mine has a I.M.I D.E in .50 caliber. I got to run two clips of that. I always agreed, its better to have and not need, than to need and not have. The same holds true to the large caliber hand guns, in my honest opinion!

[badbob454]

well Lucy, cause bigger is better... an atomic bomb doesn't need to be precise . a larger heavier projectile carries deeper into its target thus more destruction than a say 22lr.
im not a macho guy but facts are facts.

if a grizz comes around ill take a 454 Casull or a 10mm pistol .. rather than aim a petite pocket pistol at his eyeball hoping to hit his brain.

[StrawHat]

Captain O was previously on this forum, and others as gunfan. He was a huge proponent of the 32 Long and apparently is still in favor of the smaller cartridges. I see they have a place but prefer the larger calibers. I have admitted in print to having actually carried a 32 Long Hand Ejector while the holster for my 45 ACP "N" frame was being repaired. Things went well and my man parts did not fall off, but I was not as relaxed as I normally am.

For those that enjoy or prefer the littler calibers and cartridges, great. Some of us don't. To try and turn it into a "macho"thing is silly at best.

Kevin

[Lloyd Smale]

my ccw guns. 4 inch 500 linebaughs. with a 500 grain bullet its like getting hit by 4 9mm's:bigsmyl2:163076

[Rick Hodges]

my ccw guns. 4 inch 500 linebaughs. with a 500 grain bullet its like getting hit by 4 9mm's:bigsmyl2:163076

Those two are way too purty to be carried concealed....dang it would be a crime to cover them up.

[Lloyd Smale]

rick the blued one that dustin built me is gone. I had to sell it a couple years back when my dog needed surgery to pay the bills. I still have the (john built) stainless one. It was the first 4 inch gun he built and theres a bit of a story that goes with it. I picked it up at the linebaugh seminar that year. My buddy Al and I were both there. He got a award from john. It was called "one to ride the range with" he gives it to an important person in the gun world every year or at least did. He got the award and 10 minutes later then drew for the main door prize, a 4 5/8s 500 linebaugh. Believe it or not I won that so I came home with two new 500s and that made 3 500 for me at that time. I didn't think I need 3 and Al wanted that gun bad because it had the year and the fact it was the seminar gun engraved on it and he thought it would be cool with his plaque. So we did some trading. I think I got 3 N frames for it. My first 500 a 5.5 inch gun I bought used off Als brother eventualy got traded on a couple buffalo hunts. My first linebaugh was a 5.5 inch 475 that Boge Quinn bought from me. that leaves only one today. the stainless 500. Well unless you count the 475 marlin 94 that Rob Applegate built for me. I'm getting older and its getting hard and harder for me to shoot full power loads in the 500s anyway so I sure don't need more then one. that blued octagon case hardened gun dustin built was a beauty though! this picture doesn't do it justice. Many who saw it in person said it was the prettiest revolver they had ever seen. That included a couple real well known magazine writers.

[EMC45]

"Shot placement and penetration are what I would bet my life on"

I agree. This topic is brought up often. On multiple "gun boards" and with varying results. Sometimes heated arguments and ill behavior results. My take on it is this: Carry the gun you can afford, shoot consistently and safely, also one you are accurate with. Are we going for power factor here, like in IPDA/IPSC? Not that I'm aware of. I carry. The gun I carry most is a KelTec P3AT loaded with old Remington green and yellow box FMJs. Spare mag rides in my left front pocket with cell phone, it too is full of the same FMJs. I also, at other times, carry the G36 Glock with WWB 230gr. HPs, with spare mag riding in left front pocket. Either way I am confident of defending myself. Either way I feel confident of getting out and getting to safety if the need arose. A belly or face full of .380 FMJs will be a bad thing no matter how you slice it. Same goes for the .45. At times I carry a .32 S&W-L caliber I frame S&W. I still feel like I could repel evil with it as well. First rule is to have a gun. Not a gun that starts with a .4, or a BBQ gun, or a giant magnum...... Have a gun. One that you know how to use and can use successfully. I am sure eye sockets full of 100gr. 3118s cast from WWs, will be a show stopper.

[rbuck351]

Although I believe the size of the bullet does matter, it's not number one. Number one is how good you are with your gun, how quick can you get it out and how good you are at putting bullets where they need to go. Number two is how reliable the gun is. It has to shoot and feed every time. If you can draw your choice of gun/caliber and put a couple of rounds into a perks nose/eye sockets in 1 1/2 seconds, caliber won't matter much. If you can't, more practice not bigger bullets is the answer. My personal carry gun is an XDs in 45.

[dubber123]

I do not argue that a properly placed bullet/boolit is the single most important thing. I do have to chuckle at those who insist a smaller than ideal caliber is just fine, as they will shoot for the eye, or nose or whatever. I highly doubt there exists many shooters in the world who can reliably place a quickly drawn and fired pistol round into that 1" target, under stress, in poor lighting, with someone shooting back. Those eye sockets looking back at you probably won't be holding real still for you either. They put that big "X" in the middle of combat silhouette targets for a reason ;)

I don't carry a big caliber by any means. For 20+ years, it has been a .38 snubnose revolver. Gradually switching to a .40 auto. With either, I will be relieved if I get my shot off first, and it lands center mass.

[Outpost75]

That was Philippine-American War. The 38 Long Colt did not stop the Moro warriors effectively. They pulled the 45 Colt peacemakers out of storage and the claim is they worked much better at stopping the Moro..

Also noteworthy, is that the .45 revolvers sent to the PI were accompanied by SCHOFIELD ammunition, because after 1887 that was the only .45 revolver ammunition loaded at the arsenals, until they introduced the M1909 round, which had similar ballistics. The service load on which "the .45" acquired its reputation was the 230-grain .45 Gov't as loaded with only 28 grains of powder, because its reduced recoil resulted in more troops being able to qualify. The Schofield round was well liked for its reduced recoil and nobody complained about its being ineffective in combat! The older M1875 loads with 40 grains of powder were pretty much all expended by 1895.

[KCSO]

Actually from the autopsy's I have attended I would rank the 357 125 Hp well above a 44 mag for stopping power depending on the bullet. A 44 240 doesn't open up as well in a frail HUMAN body. As to what will kill a man dead a 22 short will do it in the right place. A 480 won't in the wrong place. I had a fellow who put a 30-06 under his chin and only managed to blow off the front of his face and he's still alive. The biggest man I knew was killed with a 22 short to the femoral artery and he bled to death in less than 5 minutes while rolling on the ground clutching his groin. All in all stopping power is a very complicated problem.

My recommendation after 40+ years is carry what you can HIT with and PRACTICE often. A solid hit with a 22 is more effective than a loud miss with whatever.

[leftiye]

But then again we shouldn't get too extreme. I'd say to err in the direction of killing power.

[Lloyd Smale]

your comparing a light 357 to a mid/heavy 44. Id like to see the difference between the wound channel of a 125 357 and a 180hp 44 mag at full tilt. I bet I know which would be bigger.
The biggest man I knew was killed with a 22 short to the femoral artery and he bled to death in less than 5 minutes while rolling on the ground clutching his groin. All in all stopping power is a very complicated problem.
yup and theres examples of people killed with sticks too. that doesn't mean I'm going to count on one to protect me.
Actually from the autopsy's I have attended I would rank the 357 125 Hp well above a 44 mag for stopping power depending on the bullet. A 44 240 doesn't open up as well in a frail HUMAN body. As to what will kill a man dead a 22 short will do it in the right place. A 480 won't in the wrong place. I had a fellow who put a 30-06 under his chin and only managed to blow off the front of his face and he's still alive. The biggest man I knew was killed with a 22 short to the femoral artery and he bled to death in less than 5 minutes while rolling on the ground clutching his groin. All in all stopping power is a very complicated problem.

My recommendation after 40+ years is carry what you can HIT with and PRACTICE often. A solid hit with a 22 is more effective than a loud miss with whatever.

[Lloyd Smale]

couldn't agree more. I hear people talking in the gunshop all the time about there skills but somehow when they go to the range when I'm there they have a bad day:bigsmyl2: Then add the stress of someone shooting at you! Me, I carry lots of different guns but in the back of my mind hope that if the day ever comes that I really need to use my gun that its the biggest one I carry not a 22!!!!!!!! Sure that 22 or 32 might kill someone but hes going to ventilate you while hes dying. I just don't see the sense in it. If I'm going to carry why would I pick a 22 or 32 over a 38? Anymore I think why would I bother carrying a 38 revolver when a 40 semi auto is just as compact and easy to carry? Or even a 9 that's just as powerful and holds 2 more rounds. Absolute only use I have for any ccw gun smaller then a 38 is on the rare occasion that I don't have a holstered gun on me I might grab one of my lcps that I keep in my truck and jeep and stick it in my pocket but that's proably once or twice a year.
I do not argue that a properly placed bullet/boolit is the single most important thing. I do have to chuckle at those who insist a smaller than ideal caliber is just fine, as they will shoot for the eye, or nose or whatever. I highly doubt there exists many shooters in the world who can reliably place a quickly drawn and fired pistol round into that 1" target, under stress, in poor lighting, with someone shooting back. Those eye sockets looking back at you probably won't be holding real still for you either. They put that big "X" in the middle of combat silhouette targets for a reason ;)

I don't carry a big caliber by any means. For 20+ years, it has been a .38 snubnose revolver. Gradually switching to a .40 auto. With either, I will be relieved if I get my shot off first, and it lands center mass.

[StrawHat]

Also noteworthy, is that the .45 revolvers sent to the PI were accompanied by SCHOFIELD ammunition, because after 1887 that was the only .45 revolver ammunition loaded at the arsenals, until they introduced the M1909 round, which had similar ballistics. The service load on which "the .45" acquired its reputation was the 230-grain .45 Gov't as loaded with only 28 grains of powder, because its reduced recoil resulted in more troops being able to qualify. The Schofield round was well liked for its reduced recoil and nobody complained about its being ineffective in combat! The older M1875 loads with 40 grains of powder were pretty much all expended by 1895.

Great information! Not a well known fact but certainly a pertinent one. Thanks for posting this.

Kevin

[leftiye]

Just another instance of big being important. In this case power scaled down, but still very effective. Funny how them big boolits work so well. .58 Zouave anybody???

[Captain O]

"Shot placement and penetration are what I would bet my life on"

I agree. This topic is brought up often. On multiple "gun boards" and with varying results. Sometimes heated arguments and ill behavior results. My take on it is this: Carry the gun you can afford, shoot consistently and safely, also one you are accurate with. Are we going for power factor here, like in IPDA/IPSC? Not that I'm aware of. I carry. The gun I carry most is a KelTec P3AT loaded with old Remington green and yellow box FMJs. Spare mag rides in my left front pocket with cell phone, it too is full of the same FMJs. I also, at other times, carry the G36 Glock with WWB 230gr. HPs, with spare mag riding in left front pocket. Either way I am confident of defending myself. Either way I feel confident of getting out and getting to safety if the need arose. A belly or face full of .380 FMJs will be a bad thing no matter how you slice it. Same goes for the .45. At times I carry a .32 S&W-L caliber I frame S&W. I still feel like I could repel evil with it as well. First rule is to have a gun. Not a gun that starts with a .4, or a BBQ gun, or a giant magnum...... Have a gun. One that you know how to use and can use successfully. I am sure eye sockets full of 100gr. 3118s cast from WWs, will be a show stopper.

To quote Erich, the "sage of the morgue and the courtroom":

"Shot placement is king, penetration is queen. Everything else is 'angels dancing on the heads of pins'".

Caliber is all well and good, but it doesn't take place of shot placement and penetration... this is indisputable.

[Walkingwolf]

I just don't care, I carry what I want to. I am the one responsible, not someone on the internet. It always amazes the fruitless attempts at control of other people. Most are probably like me and don't care what others think, or at least I hope so.

[Texantothecore]

The reason I carry .45 lc is that I shoot quite well with it and the recoil is not bothersome to me at all unlike most of the high speed small rounds. I also know it to be effective under many conditions, not just ideal conditions.

I like big slow moving calibers. It's just me.

[Half Dog]

Well...if I miss the shot maybe the blast will be effective.

[44man]

I hunt deer, not people. I have seen crazy with both lungs punctured or the heart shot and they go between 100 and 200 yards. You shoot a man in the front, you get ONE lung, NOT TWO. Even a heart shot with a creep on drugs is not a STOP. Double tap and another to the head. Head shot is instant. Bigger in the chest has always worked better then a hole, you NEED energy. A .36 C&B will work better then what some of you carry. Put faith in a .25, .32 or .380 and a nine, get fast shoes.

[.452dia]

I've hunted and fished in places where man is not at the top of the food chain. I also spent a couple of tours in places where there were folks that wanted to slit your throat or worse. Never in either of those situations did I think I had enough gun. Being close to a half ton of fur, muscle, teeth, claws with a bad attitude and temper will make a believer out of you. They don't make too big a gun!

[FergusonTO35]

164281

'Nuff said!!

[rintinglen]

Just to add a moment of clarity, despite the claims to the contrary, long after the 45's replaced the 38 Long Colts, U.S. service men continued to be killed by berserk Filipinos running amok. One fellow took 9 30-40 rounds, and still managed to wound a pistol-armed officer.

Carry a 45 if it makes you feel good (I do on occasion) but don't think it is a magic wand. Based in my limited observation, it takes 500+ foot pounds and an expanding bullet light for caliber to get maximum stopping power out of a handgun. And that still is not one hundred percent.

[NavyVet1959]

Just to add a moment of clarity, despite the claims to the contrary, long after the 45's replaced the 38 Long Colts, U.S. service men continued to be killed by berserk Filipinos running amok. One fellow took 9 30-40 rounds, and still managed to wound a pistol-armed officer.

Carry a 45 if it makes you feel good (I do on occasion) but don't think it is a magic wand. Based in my limited observation, it takes 500+ foot pounds and an expanding bullet light for caliber to get maximum stopping power out of a handgun. And that still is not one hundred percent.

Why the "light for caliber"?

[dubber123]

Why the "light for caliber"?

I would guess because people aren't a very thick target, and lighter bullets often have lighter jackets that expand much sooner. A long, tubular wound channel over 24" might be great on a Moose, but mostly wasted on a 10" thick human. My guess, we'll see what Glen thinks :)

[44man]

K
eep shooting until the threat is gone! Might be 17 rounds and a reload. Why not ONE? Might be five perps facing you. Here is an entry from a revolver on a deer , destroyed the neck too on the way out.164394
Light for caliber means to contain a bullet inside to prevent collateral damage. Based on "Energy Dump" that is a myth. Energy is indeed needed but is has to be applied so a .45 acp at 600 fps is not as good as over 800 fps..A .38 sicks but a .357 is a proven man stopper. You can match it with a nine but most bullets do not deliver. Make a bullet heavier and there is a difference.

[sawinredneck]

Interesting thread.
I've carried most everything through the years, .22, .25, .380, 9, 10mm and 44mag. I remember the Miami FBI shootout, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout and all the fall out and testing that came from that. I remember the first book on one shot stops and all the controversy it stirred up. I've seen leather jackets stop a .25acp, and I couldn't kill an ailing cat with a .22lr Beretta, bad day! I've seen the pics of the guy that got shot in the head when the first 147grn 9mm loadings came out, went under the skin, under his hair and out the back of his neck. I've heard the stories of people standing behind perps and being shot because of over penetration.
I once had to try to explain to some LE's why it was important, and in everyone's best interest, for people to carry hollow point bullets for self defense. They had no idea, or understanding of how they work. It was really very sad! They seemed to think all "civilians" needed was ball ammo because hollow points were "scary" to them! I'm not sure I got through to them or not, but at least they understood the reasoning for them when I was done.
I'm still not a big fan of .380 or 9mm, but I'd carry a 9mm or .32acp if I came across the right deal.
I'll never carry a .22 or .25 auto again, just too many things to go wrong! They don't feed reliably, and don't penetrate to make me feel secure carrying one.
I respect both the .45's, acp and LC, and would carry either, not sure I'd carry a single action revolver, but that's me, not the gun or round.
The .44 special is alright when loaded properly, but the mag is too much for self defense in a populated area, too much risk of over penetration IMO. Larger than that, it gets worse. Now, in bear territory, go for it, the bigger the better on that front!
Anymore, I'm a fan of light, fast moving hollow points in 10mm and .357mag. 135-155gr in 10 and 110-135grn in .357. This gives me, at least in my non-scientific redneck testing, the penetration I'm after, 12-16"'s in baggies or milk jugs filled with water. These are loads for populated areas where I don't want to worry about blowing through someone and injuring someone behind them. I carried these 10mm loads working security in a bar on the weekends for example.
You need to step back and look at where you will using the weapon, and what you are going to be up against. When I went deer hunting with my dad and nephews, I was there for back up, I loaded the 10mm with some full house 180-200grn fmgs. A lot different environment that a crowded bar! I honestly wouldn't feel terribly out of place with those loads in bear country, but I'd rather not have to test them out!
So what works for me, isn't going to work for you, or Joe Blow, or Captain O. We all have different need's and expectations from a defensive round! As I live in a town, I wouldn't consider my .308 a viable option for home defense! If I lived on 20 acres, I think it might work just fine!
Just something to ponder.

[NavyVet1959]

Considering the low hit percentage on officer involved shootings and the very few 3rd party hits on the shots that miss, I have to wonder if we are maybe a bit too concerned about what happens when a round passes through someone. One difference though is that officers are probably shooting at greater distances than we would be shooting, so it would seem to increase their chance of a miss. For us, past 7 yds, it starts getting a bit more difficult to justify that we felt out lives in danger. Robberies are something that are done close up. When was the last time you heard of someone being robbed and the assailant was 10 yds away from the person?

[PerpetualStudent]

For those interested in a long but good read on the subject I highly recommend "Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics and Forensic Techniques" by Vincent J. M. Di Maio
Good book. Does have pictures of deceased and their wounds and is written by the foremost Medical Examiner in the US.

Something worth thinking about is what actually stops someone? A hit that destroys the brain stops someone instantly. A broken bone can take a limb out of action. Hits elsewhere will only stop them over time. To my mind that's key. The .38s center mass did kill, not just thousands of American Criminals but those Filipinos as well. What was scary, and the reason we still tell the story, is that they kept attacking until they physically couldn't. I forget where I read the estimate but I've read that even if you destroyed the heart, the target would still have enough oxygenated muscle mass and brain tissue for 12-20 seconds of action. Heart out of commission, no more blood coming (no doubt that it's a killing shot), they still are capable of action and 12 seconds can be a darn long time.

So how does that jive with so many one shot stops? I buy the argument that it's mainly psychological. "I'm shot, that's it. Now I lie down". I also buy (and this is Dave Grossman's argument) that louder bangs convince humans to stop resisting faster. Applying that to handguns I wonder how much of the .357's and and the .40's "stopping power" comes from a louder bark. Last time I was at the range and I was spotting for someone I was flinching more when he shot the .40 then when he shot the 7.62x54R, and I wasn't even holding the damn thing!

Ultimately I have no quarrel with anyone's choice of handgun for carry. Big and slow slugs like the .45 have sent plenty of people to meet their maker, tried and true. I'd be a fool to argue against their effectiveness. A Mozambique drill with a .32 acp or a .380 will probably send you to your maker just as well and if the shooter will practice more with such a caliber-- that's better to my way of thinking.

A psychological stop is great, but if you can't get that, you need time or a hit to the CNS. If a small caliber will help you get that hit to the CNS then great. If you'd rather a heavier caliber which will kill over time and and barks louder then great. I forget where I read it, but I love the saying "There are no solutions, only tradeoffs"

[str8wal]

So how does that jive with so many one shot stops? I buy the argument that it's mainly psychological. "I'm shot, that's it. Now I lie down".

I buy that. Look at a deer for instance. You can blow their heart to shreds and they will run a quarter mile or further. They just don't know any better. They don't know that they are dead, they just know something is wrong and they want to get away from it. i have read countless reports of arrests made on perps that were laying on the ground "writhing in pain" from non-lethal flesh wounds. That said, a large diameter slug moving at a similar velocity as a smaller one will make a more substantial first impression. I believe any gun is better than no gun, but size does matter.

[44man]

My Vaquero .45 Colt penetrated a 16" tree, cut a 1" grape vine in half and I never found the boolit in the ground.
Only 1160 FPS but a heavy 320 gr boolit.
.475 did the same and blew 4 jugs of water, split the fifth and went through 17, never stopped. I laugh at TV when they shoot a perp and a hundred people are behind him. An ACP will not do that and might stop but still is effective. A nine has penetration but less energy. Still, who is behind? Where do all the misses go?

[FergusonTO35]

This is the best advice I have ever read on the topic of defensive firearms, and it should apply equally to cops and ordinary citizens. Uttered by a guy who goes by the handle WWB over on the Ruger forum:

Unless you expect to be confronted by an entire armed platoon, which is quite unlikely, there is no need for ultra-high capacity magazines. A bit of wisdom I brought back from Vietnam: It ain't who shoots first and it ain't who shoots most; it's who HITS first. A corollary - the sooner you kill that SOB, the sooner he'll quit shooting at you. The ability to hit what you're shooting at trumps all others, and hanging 47 accessories from a cheese-grater forearm and having a 30 round magazine won't help that - practice will.

My version of an all-purpose defensive weapon - a 1911. If I can't get the job done with 8 rounds, I oughta be runnin' instead of fightin'.

YMMV

[ghh3rd]

I love my .44 mag, 45-70, and my 45 acp. Oh, and why use sabots with small boolits in a muzzleloader -- I cast .50 cal. (I also have several .22's)

[Lloyd Smale]

ill address the original question with another question. Why is it that guys who cant handle a big gun or just wont put in the time to master one feel compelled to belittle someone who does by referring to them as hairy chested apes or egotistical or macho idiots. About like the guy driving a prius bashing me for driving my vette. Betcha I know whos having more fun!!!!!!!!!!!

[dubber123]

ill address the original question with another question. Why is it that guys who cant handle a big gun or just wont put in the time to master one feel compelled to belittle someone who does by referring to them as hairy chested apes or egotistical or macho idiots. About like the guy driving a prius bashing me for driving my vette. Betcha I know whos having more fun!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop making sense Lloyd, that bothers some people :)

[DerekP Houston]

ill address the original question with another question. Why is it that guys who cant handle a big gun or just wont put in the time to master one feel compelled to belittle someone who does by referring to them as hairy chested apes or egotistical or macho idiots. About like the guy driving a prius bashing me for driving my vette. Betcha I know whos having more fun!!!!!!!!!!!

Eh probably has something to do with wanting a "one shot wonder" like in the movies. Nevermind the statistics that most people survive handgun wounds *if* treated in an appropriate amount of time.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

That was my source for the info, they made a good point about the 9mm reported info as well:

"One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. One can reasonable expect that FMJ ammo will not stop as well as a state of the art expanding bullet."

"I think the most interesting statistic is the percentage of people who stopped with one shot to the torso or head. There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit."

[PerpetualStudent]

Well it goes the other way too

"Why do so many people who drive 4 Wheel Drive Trucks with V8 engines make fun of people who drive minivans and hatchbacks as effete pushovers? Especially since in general the minivan or hatchback will do everything you need it to at a lower initial cost and lower upkeep costs."

Certainly situations where having a truck or an SUV is needed but not enough to warrant US sales of trucks. I think the same thing happens with the caliber wars. When really a simple "I like .45 ACP" is enough reason to carry one. So is "I'm a better shot with a .380". Whatever you shoot or drive should meet your needs and that's all that matters.

[tygar]

Eh probably has something to do with wanting a "one shot wonder" like in the movies. . No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit."

That's why the Marine Corps taught me, 2 in the chest, 1 in the head as you run on by.

LLoyd, I'm, hopefully today, picking up another vette. My 96 Collectors Edition is getting tired as I drive em hard!

.45s & vettes, can't beat em.

[FergusonTO35]

ill address the original question with another question. Why is it that guys who cant handle a big gun or just wont put in the time to master one feel compelled to belittle someone who does by referring to them as hairy chested apes or egotistical or macho idiots. About like the guy driving a prius bashing me for driving my vette. Betcha I know whos having more fun!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel the same way when I'm talking about my Glock 42 .380, and someone feels the need to remind me that they carry a .45 because they don't make a .46, the .380 is only going to make a bad guy mad, a 6 round magazine isn't even halfway to the 17 rounds their favorite gun holds, my ammo won't have any effect because it doesn't cost $1.50 a shot and expand to 20X caliber, and on and on.
:violin:

And, for the record I really love the .45-70 and Ford Mustangs!

[44man]

Yeah shoot a 300# perp in heavy clothing with a .380? Maybe you need a pellet pistol.
Funny to read a full mag of nines disable a creep but he survives. OOPS, wrong bullets of course so you need expansion with a tiny, light bullet that stops fast. WOW, energy dump that is what you felt in recoil. I think a .36 C&B will make a .380 look sick. Wonder why the Colt Walker was made?

[Lloyd Smale]

probably because 95 percent of the owners are either yuppies or people that wished they had that lifted truck![
Well it goes the other way too

"Why do so many people who drive 4 Wheel Drive Trucks with V8 engines make fun of people who drive minivans and hatchbacks as effete pushovers? Especially since in general the minivan or hatchback will do everything you need it to at a lower initial cost and lower upkeep costs."

Certainly situations where having a truck or an SUV is needed but not enough to warrant US sales of trucks. I think the same thing happens with the caliber wars. When really a simple "I like .45 ACP" is enough reason to carry one. So is "I'm a better shot with a .380". Whatever you shoot or drive should meet your needs and that's all that matters.

[Lloyd Smale]

mines a budget vette too, a 92 but it only has 55k on it and its about mint. Is yours an lt1 or lt4? those lt4s were a sweet motor
That's why the Marine Corps taught me, 2 in the chest, 1 in the head as you run on by.

LLoyd, I'm, hopefully today, picking up another vette. My 96 Collectors Edition is getting tired as I drive em hard!

.45s & vettes, can't beat em.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill carry a 9 or even a 380 sometimes when its nessisary because of warm weather clothes but I know if I have to ever pull a gun out and use it I hope its a day that I'm carrying a 45!
I feel the same way when I'm talking about my Glock 42 .380, and someone feels the need to remind me that they carry a .45 because they don't make a .46, the .380 is only going to make a bad guy mad, a 6 round magazine isn't even halfway to the 17 rounds their favorite gun holds, my ammo won't have any effect because it doesn't cost $1.50 a shot and expand to 20X caliber, and on and on.
:violin:

And, for the record I really love the .45-70 and Ford Mustangs!

[Lloyd Smale]

even with my wife and her 9 I stress to her all the time to keep on pulling that trigger till even the twitching is done and we will let the lawyer justify it afterward. I agree totally. Theres a reason the 45colt and 4440s were the guns of choice in the old west. But then they were men back then. There gun was a tool and they wanted a proper one. I would have to guess that the guy who has nothing but a 380 for a ccw gun is one that never had real reason to think he might actually need it to protect himself or more importantly his family. Like I said I occasionaly carry one when theres not choice but sure hope my wife isn't standing there one day while I'm trying to put down a bad guy that has a 45!!
Yeah shoot a 300# perp in heavy clothing with a .380? Maybe you need a pellet pistol.
Funny to read a full mag of nines disable a creep but he survives. OOPS, wrong bullets of course so you need expansion with a tiny, light bullet that stops fast. WOW, energy dump that is what you felt in recoil. I think a .36 C&B will make a .380 look sick. Wonder why the Colt Walker was made?

[NavyVet1959]

ill carry a 9 or even a 380 sometimes when its nessisary because of warm weather clothes but I know if I have to ever pull a gun out and use it I hope its a day that I'm carrying a 45!

I've even carried a .22LR when I had the misfortune to be in NYC many years ago. :(

[PerpetualStudent]

Well Lloyd, they'd probably reply that 95% of the guys driving trucks don't have any need for them are compensating for something. And so it would go, back and forth. Hippie! Redneck! Lazy desk jockey! Dumb Jock! and boils down to this :takinWiz:

Some people need a truck. Some people want a truck. Some people can only afford a hatchback. Some people have all their needs met with with the hatchback. But unless the teasing is well meant between the hatchback owners and the SUV crowd, I don't understand it. In general, both groups use them the same way. Rarely the truck guys do things that they couldn't do without their truck. Rarely the hatchback guys wish they had a truck. For 95% of the time it really doesn't matter which you drive. And that's where the analogy breaks down. When a single shot doesn't put the bad guy down, there's a good argument to be made for both sides of the caliber wars. Pick which argument you like best and you're good. At least that's my take on it :grin:

[FergusonTO35]

I would have to guess that the guy who has nothing but a 380 for a ccw gun is one that never had real reason to think he might actually need it to protect himself or more importantly his family.

I never said I have "nothing but a .380", nor did I claim that my .380 is an instant fight stopper or anything like that. It is one of several different carry guns I use depending on what I am wearing and what I am doing. In heavy clothing weather I will most likely be carrying my Glock 26 or 19 with quality ammo. It is true I have never been in a situation where I thought there was a very good chance I would have to use it. Hopefully that day will never come, until it does I will choose my carry gun based on what I am confident with and is appropriate for the situation.

[Lloyd Smale]

fortunately I live in an area where about everyone drives a truck. We have two, one mine one my wifes. by the way weve got a wrangler too and even a vette for the 10 good days we get each year. :bigsmyl2: The wife could get by with a 4x4 sport utility vechicle. she drives a terrible stretch in the winter and needs a 4x4 and she picked a truck. She said she just feels more secure in it because its bigger. She absolutely hated here last car a 2013 buick. She was scared about every day in the winter. So I personally will say that there isn't any family up here that might NEED a truck but its probably the most practical vehicle on the road here and theres probably more trucks on the road then cars and if you took away the cars that come through from other places its probably 2 to 1 truck to car and out of those cars about 75 percent of them are 4x4 sport utility vehicles. We do get a few hippys from the citys that settle here with there bmws, Priuses and mini vans but if you look at them in 2 years there in 4x4s of some sort too. Either that or they went back to the city. But then I know that every place in the country isn't like up here. I don't think ive seen a 2x4 pickup in years here they just don't sell but if you go to Virginia or North Carolina theres as many 2x4s as 4x4s. All ill says is bring your mini van or little hatchback up here for a winter and then tell me that I own one because im macho. Drive what you want and carry what you want but I sure will feel more secure in my 4x4 pickup with a 45 on my hip. [smilie=l:

QUOTE=PerpetualStudent;3596080]Well Lloyd, they'd probably reply that 95% of the guys driving trucks don't have any need for them are compensating for something. And so it would go, back and forth. Hippie! Redneck! Lazy desk jockey! Dumb Jock! and boils down to this :takinWiz:

Some people need a truck. Some people want a truck. Some people can only afford a hatchback. Some people have all their needs met with with the hatchback. But unless the teasing is well meant between the hatchback owners and the SUV crowd, I don't understand it. In general, both groups use them the same way. Rarely the truck guys do things that they couldn't do without their truck. Rarely the hatchback guys wish they had a truck. For 95% of the time it really doesn't matter which you drive. And that's where the analogy breaks down. When a single shot doesn't put the bad guy down, there's a good argument to be made for both sides of the caliber wars. Pick which argument you like best and you're good. At least that's my take on it :grin:[/QUOTE]

[dubber123]

Here is how I look at it; I have heard many times the statistics say the average gunfight takes 1-3 rounds. Nobody will ever make the argument a LESS powerful round is likely to stop a fight sooner, but many will argue that a MORE powerful round MAY stop a fight sooner. It makes sense to pretty much anyone that the more damage you do, and the larger the hole you punch, the quicker the fight will end. Seems like common sense to me.

Now that you have accepted the fact more powerful rounds equal more damage which equals shorter gunfights, we need to consider all the other factors. Are you willing to carry a larger more powerful gun?, can you hit squat with it when needed?, is having 1 or 2 rounds less really going to make a difference to you? If the stats are correct, anything over 3 rounds is STATISTICALLY more than you are likely to need. If that is indeed true, in my mind, you should carry the most powerful round you can shoot well. if that is a .22 short, go for it, it beats harsh words when someone is shooting at you.

For the record, I do drive a hatchback daily, but also drive a '53 Dodge M-37 and a big block '67 Barracuda. Call me confused.. ;) I have recently "upgraded" to a .40 S&W from my .38 Spl carry of the last 20+ years. Have a gun and learn to shoot it well I would say is first. If you can up the power and still shoot it well, that makes the most sense to me.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya dubber you've got a point. bigger is rarely not better but if you cant shoot a big gun stick to a little one and if you cant handle a big block cuda drive a prius. No sweat off my brow. Suppose ill catch flack here for liking wiskey and beer and detesting :takinWiz: wine too!!!

[NavyVet1959]

I suspect that for most of my driving, I could get away with a small 2-seater sports car like a Porsche Cayman. It's got enough room for a few bags of groceries or a bag or two of luggage. But then there are those days when I do need my pickup and those days where I don't want to be trapped by a few inches of water over the road. And then there are those times when traffic is piled up on the freeway because of an accident or whatever and people are creating "alternative exits" to the feeder. That's definitely an option with a 4x4 pickup, but not really an option in a 2WD vehicle that sits really low to the ground. There's trade-offs with all choices in life. I've owned sport cars and had my share of tickets while driving them. These days, I think a pickup is the best compromise. Nothing is perfect though.

Same with handguns... I'm usually carrying a 10mm, but sometimes a Officer size M1911 .45 ACP when I want something a bit less bulky. It just depends upon the mood I'm in. Since Texas now has Open Carry (for those with CHLs), I now like that I have the option to carry on my belt a Officer size M1911 (I use a thumb snap retention holster).

My wife, on the other hand... Well, if she even carries, she complains about anything heavier than one of the NAA .22mag 5-shot derringers. :( No pleasing some women... Come to think of it, there's probably no way of pleasing *most* women...

[dubber123]

ya dubber you've got a point. bigger is rarely not better but if you cant shoot a big gun stick to a little one and if you cant handle a big block cuda drive a prius. No sweat off my brow. Suppose ill catch flack here for liking wiskey and beer and detesting :takinWiz: wine too!!!

You need to get in touch with your feminine side Lloyd, you'd be less cantankerous. Wait, I bet you'd be MORE cantankerous if past experience proves anything :)

Really, use what works for YOU. Don't like carrying a big gun? then don't. If you don't like it, it will be at home or in your car when you want it. If you can't hit anything with a big gun, carry the BIGGEST you can hit with. Doing anything less is doing yourself and anyone else you may be trying to protect a great disservice. I carried a .38 snub forever, as I really hate carrying a gun. It truly is a PITA. I recently started carrying a .40 S&W Shield. I bought a really good holster, and let me tell you, it still sucks to try and carry this thing and work all day. I hope I stick it out, and overall between the thin design, and more power, think it is a better choice for me. It's still not fun though. I wish a 5" 1911 in .45 was a realistic choice, as I shoot them very well after competing with them for years, but no way I can live with carrying one of those. The .40 is my compromise, and I know just that, it's a compromise.

[Walkingwolf]

I've even carried a .22LR when I had the misfortune to be in NYC many years ago. :(

I carried a Hi Standard sentinel as a backup when I was working part time as a courier. If ya put the bullet in the right place size doe not matter.

That out of the way I carried a model 28 converted to 44 spl, and a model 870 while pulling this duty. Never had to use any of them.

Most of this (cough, cough, hack, cough) debate is moot, people WILL carry what they want to carry for the reasons they want to. Most just need to learn how to tell others to go procreate themselves that can't understand others choices.

So generally speaking, and not pointing at anybody, it is none of anybody's business what the other person carries. Arguing back and forth over something so stupid does signal some type of inferiority complex for some reason. Could be it has to do with manhood, or IQ.

[Lloyd Smale]

i too carry a 40 shield a lot and please don't tell anyone but occasionally I carry my glock 43 too. Even been known to stick an lcp in my pocket. But its kind of like I said. Any gun is better then no gun but if and when the day comes I need one I hope its a 45 on my hip!! Geez pal your the second one today that said I was a crabby sob. Maybe opinionated but not crabby[smilie=l:. Or maybe I'm just a hillbilly redneck with a macho big gun fetish! :redneck: You know how it is the good ones be they guns or motors allways have 4 for a first number! I let my wife hang girl **** off the mirror in her new Silverado and that my friend is as close as it comes to me getting in touch with my feminine side:bigsmyl2: Ill leave that to the yuppies driving the prius's and caravans!! I'm so mellow if theyd stop by id even let them shoot the wifes muddy girl camo lc9!!!!!!!!!!!!!![
You need to get in touch with your feminine side Lloyd, you'd be less cantankerous. Wait, I bet you'd be MORE cantankerous if past experience proves anything :)

Really, use what works for YOU. Don't like carrying a big gun? then don't. If you don't like it, it will be at home or in your car when you want it. If you can't hit anything with a big gun, carry the BIGGEST you can hit with. Doing anything less is doing yourself and anyone else you may be trying to protect a great disservice. I carried a .38 snub forever, as I really hate carrying a gun. It truly is a PITA. I recently started carrying a .40 S&W Shield. I bought a really good holster, and let me tell you, it still sucks to try and carry this thing and work all day. I hope I stick it out, and overall between the thin design, and more power, think it is a better choice for me. It's still not fun though. I wish a 5" 1911 in .45 was a realistic choice, as I shoot them very well after competing with them for years, but no way I can live with carrying one of those. The .40 is my compromise, and I know just that, it's a compromise.

[9.3X62AL]

Captain O--

357 Mag, 44 Special, and 10mm Auto as felon repellents don't strike me as being light tackle for the fish being played.

ALL of the formulae that seek to predict "stopping power" (whatever that is) are incomplete and unsatisfying--from Thompson/LaGarde to the jello fetishists. That the TLG produced the 45 ACP, and the Gelatin Cadre birthed the 9mm/147 JHP sub-sonic as its Best Possible tells me which study focused on putting bad guys on the pavement or in the mortuary, and which one was skewed toward some other goal.

My preference for 45 ACP (230 grain SXT), 40 S&W (180 grain SXT), and 357 Magnum (125 grain Federal #357B) have everything to do with 1) agency authorization and 2) proven effectiveness in the real world. That virility bit was well-settled long before I joined the Sheriff's Department in 1977. I have seen MANY instances involving use of handgun force by and against citizens, law officers, and assailants. I have been shot, and have shot back. Please have a modicum of civility for those of us who have had these experiences, and whose opinions and conclusions have been formed by same. If I happen to not care for your particular Gun Of Death or Caliber Of The Week, I'm sorry. Those 3 chamberings you did mention would certain do to ride the river with.

[44man]

ya dubber you've got a point. bigger is rarely not better but if you cant shoot a big gun stick to a little one and if you cant handle a big block cuda drive a prius. No sweat off my brow. Suppose ill catch flack here for liking wiskey and beer and detesting :takinWiz: wine too!!!
You guys are great! I don't like wine either, need a full bottle to know I had a drink, much prefer 100 proof and a great beer, Imperial Stout a favorite.

[Pine Baron]

Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it. -Clint Smith

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it. -Clint Smith
That was Elmer Keith who first said it.
Not to take anything away from Clint Smith, my boys wear Thunder Ranch shirts to school with Clint Smith quotes.

[FergusonTO35]

9.3X62, did you ever see the results of the traditional .38 Special +P police load with a 158 grain LSWC or LSWCHP? One old copper I spoke to served from the 1960's into the 1990's and said the hollow point version was the most effective handgun round he ever saw upon autopsy. "One per customer is all you need" he quipped.

[Walkingwolf]

9.3X62, did you ever see the results of the traditional .38 Special +P police load with a 158 grain LSWC or LSWCHP? One old copper I spoke to served from the 1960's into the 1990's and said the hollow point version was the most effective handgun round he ever saw upon autopsy. "One per customer is all you need" he quipped.

His opinion was before "pray and spray" became the norm. When a well placed bullet did what it was supposed to do when the operator did what they were supposed to do. No caliber is worth a damn if it misses it's mark, and by stats more rounds fired by LE miss their mark than do. Sorry guys but those are the facts.

[9.3X62AL]

Wolf called it. The last stats I saw at work showed that 91% of my shop's rounds fired in armed encounters did not find their mark. I'm not sure of its author, but the statement "You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight" was much-used by a fellow instructor (the late SGT Charles Varga) to illustrate the point.

TO-35.......my shop didn't carry the FBI-touted 38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP +P, nor did many of the nearby agencies. I don't believe I saw any of its field work personally. In spite of that absence, I would be VERY happy to carry that load in a 38 Special--and would do so currently if it was authorized. I believe it to be the best 38 Special variant currently available for personal defense. Not only is it effective for its intended purpose, it is by a long margin more accurate that the 110 and 125 grain JHPs so popular for this purpose today, and the load shoots a lot closer to the fixed sights of most 38 Special service variants.

[FergusonTO35]

His opinion was before "pray and spray" became the norm. When a well placed bullet did what it was supposed to do when the operator did what they were supposed to do. No caliber is worth a damn if it misses it's mark, and by stats more rounds fired by LE miss their mark than do. Sorry guys but those are the facts.

Yep, spot on. When I used to work at a police station, I could look up the coppers' semi-annual qualification scores on one of the drives. Other than a handful of of tactical nerds that every agency has, most were not particularly good on the range nor did they bother to practice outside of qualification. I think they would have been far more formidable carrying S&W Model 10's with FBI loads and taking mandatory practice time.

[FergusonTO35]

Wolf called it. The last stats I saw at work showed that 91% of my shop's rounds fired in armed encounters did not find their mark. I'm not sure of its author, but the statement "You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight" was much-used by a fellow instructor (the late SGT Charles Varga) to illustrate the point.

TO-35.......my shop didn't carry the FBI-touted 38 Special 158 grain LSWCHP +P, nor did many of the nearby agencies. I don't believe I saw any of its field work personally. In spite of that absence, I would be VERY happy to carry that load in a 38 Special--and would do so currently if it was authorized. I believe it to be the best 38 Special variant currently available for personal defense. Not only is it effective for its intended purpose, it is by a long margin more accurate that the 110 and 125 grain JHPs so popular for this purpose today, and the load shoots a lot closer to the fixed sights of most 38 Special service variants.

I stoke my .38's with the solid point 150 grain SWC at 850 FPS. It shoots dead on to the sights of all my .38's. I never understood the appeal of lightweight hollow points in this cartridge. They are nothing more than a very sleepy 9mm, especially when fired from a snubby.

[tazman]

I stoke my .38's with the solid point 150 grain SWC at 850 FPS. It shoots dead on to the sights of all my .38's. I never understood the appeal of lightweight hollow points in this cartridge. They are nothing more than a very sleepy 9mm, especially when fired from a snubby.

I agree with that entirely, except for one small detail. I load the 38 with full power wadcutters. It probably won't make much difference to a bad guy, but I know how accurate they are.
I also have a 9mm that I trust because I use heavy bullets in it. For all practical purposes, the end result is the same that way. 150 grain boolits going 850-900 fps with either cartridge.
Easily controlled and very repeatable.

[9.3X62AL]

Few shooters are satisfied with the "stopping ability" of their sidearms. That dissatisfaction manifests itself in all sorts of chases down rabbit holes for Magic Bullets, Controlled Expansion, load adjustments, ad nauseum. Personnel still can't hit well under grave extremes (thank you, Massad Ayoob), and one answer to that problem has been to re-invent the 9mm into its Sub-Sonic persona. The hope was that its attenuated recoil would enhance hit rates, and for all practical purposes it duplicates standard pressure 38 Special performance. I don't know if there has been a pay-off on this particular compromise, but I don't carry the 9mm in harm's way because I OBJECT STRENUOUSLY to carrying a 35% down-load for serious purposes. Now, pair up the M9 load's ballistics (125 grain-class bullet at 1250 FPS) with a decent hollowpoint of similar weight......THAT would be a CALIBER. I would carry it very happily. If there is a "trend" in my caliber/ammo choices for self-defense, "full potential" of the caliber being carried via its ammo is probably the litmus test.

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm easier to please. Make mine a bud
You guys are great! I don't like wine either, need a full bottle to know I had a drink, much prefer 100 proof and a great beer, Imperial Stout a favorite.

[Lloyd Smale]

this is truly sad and the local police sometimes use my range to qualify and to say there average shooters would be a gift. Most are downright terrible.
Yep, spot on. When I used to work at a police station, I could look up the coppers' semi-annual qualification scores on one of the drives. Other than a handful of of tactical nerds that every agency has, most were not particularly good on the range nor did they bother to practice outside of qualification. I think they would have been far more formidable carrying S&W Model 10's with FBI loads and taking mandatory practice time.

[MT Gianni]

This OP troll was banned within hours of posting this thread. Why does it still have legs?

[Walkingwolf]

This OP troll was banned within hours of posting this thread. Why does it still have legs?

Because it is another battle in the great caliber wars where there is no winner.

[NavyVet1959]

This OP troll was banned within hours of posting this thread. Why does it still have legs?

Doesn't look like he's currently banned...

[dubber123]

Doesn't look like he's currently banned...

Hasn't been for a while now. My guess is a time out for bad behavior. As expected, a lot of varying opinions on this, but a lot of good information too. I doubt it changed the OP's mind, and that's fine, it may have helped others make a better informed decision.

[EMC45]

Yep, spot on. When I used to work at a police station, I could look up the coppers' semi-annual qualification scores on one of the drives. Other than a handful of of tactical nerds that every agency has, most were not particularly good on the range nor did they bother to practice outside of qualification. I think they would have been far more formidable carrying S&W Model 10's with FBI loads and taking mandatory practice time.

I have seen this far more often than I care to.

[str8wal]

The last stats I saw at work showed that 91% of my shop's rounds fired in armed encounters did not find their mark.

A few years ago a headline read "Nine shot on busy NY street". It turned out that all were shot by errant police bullets fired at a perp while on a foot chase. A spokesman for the police at a PC later said (and I paraphrase) that "officers were trained to fire multiple shots because only 1 in 10 were expected to find their mark". Pitiful, if you ask me.

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds to me like the police in NYC should have to live with reduced capacity mags, not ordinary citizens!! In any event, most coppers are not gun people like we are, and the main use of a police gun is as a compliance tool.

I can't shoot any sort of magnum or even a stout 9mm well at all on the range, if I were to carry such a gun the bad guys would be quite safe from me in a real defensive situation. I carry lead or plated slugs with flat nose or very blunt round nose profile loaded for modest to average velocity in my defensive pistols. I think these slugs offer the best possible performance for my meager abilities. What is important to me is that I know this ammo is reliable and gives me the best possibility of actually putting the boolit where it needs to go. This is what I carry:

Glock 26, 9mm: 124 grain Berry's plated truncated cone at 1000 fps
Glock 42, .380: Lee 356-102-2R at 935 fps
S&W 637, .38: Lee 358-150-SWC at 725 fps
S&W 10-5, .38: Lee 358-150-SWC at 850 fps

[9.3X62AL]

Oh, yes--Caliber Wars have sold LOTS of magazines over the years.

[FergusonTO35]

It happens with hunting rifles too. The short magnum craze of the late 90's/early 2000's was practically a license to print money for manufacturers and writers. The claims you would read about them were typical for every new cartridge introduction but still required the reader to put on his muck boots: less recoil, more velocity, more accuracy, better case life wrapped up in a rifle that is shorter and easier to carry. And don't even get started on the amazing 600 yard shots you can now make! All this can be yours for just the cost of a new rifle and ammo.

[Outpost75]

If all you have is a pair of Klein lineman's pliers and a screwdriver on your tool belt, make the most of it.

Caliber wars aside, the important thing is to be armed all the time whenever and where ever legal. If you can't carry a gun, practice the rapid-fire woodpecker stab in the guy's neck and eye sockets with a BIC pen or carry a roll of quarters rolled up in your watch cap and backhand the guy across the chops.

It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size of the fight in the dog. Maintain the warrior mindset and refuse to be a victim.

164991

[youngmman]

I think Bill Jordan had it right in "No Second Place Winner": "if you are going into a known hostile situation then use a sawed off shotgun and quit worrying about unimportant details". That said, Jordan carried a 357/Mo. 19 and Wild Bill carried .36 Cal pistols and the 1911 45 ACP has been killing the enemy reliably for over 100 years. It should be obvious that all this "Claptrap" about the best caliber is nonsense: USE A RELIABLE WEAPON but most important LEARN HOW TO SHOOT--------PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE and PRACTICE SOME-MORE.

[FergusonTO35]

Excellent advice here. When I had the opportunity to visit Hawaii, which is not RKBA friendly, I carried a big lockback knife which is very sharp and perfectly legal there.

[Lloyd Smale]

was a lineman for over 30 years. I know 200 ways to kill you with a pair of KLEINS. :bigsmyl2:
If all you have is a pair of Klein lineman's pliers and a screwdriver on your tool belt, make the most of it.

Caliber wars aside, the important thing is to be armed all the time whenever and where ever legal. If you can't carry a gun, practice the rapid-fire woodpecker stab in the guy's neck and eye sockets with a BIC pen or carry a roll of quarters rolled up in your watch cap and backhand the guy across the chops.

It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size of the fight in the dog. Maintain the warrior mindset and refuse to be a victim.

164991

[Outpost75]

was a lineman for over 30 years. I know 200 ways to kill you with a pair of KLEINS. :bigsmyl2:

Now THERE is a truly dangerous man! 8-)

[Texas by God]

I've been shooting firearms for 50 yrs. A lot. No matter what I carry it's going to work if I hit the right spot. I also have a brain, opposable thumbs and teeth. This thread has been fun!

[Lloyd Smale]

clint is smoking crack or looking to sound intelligent using an old saying. I sure don't agree. Most people with one gun rarely even shoot. I wonder how many guns he has. Last I heard he was even pretty good with them:bigsmyl2:
Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it. -Clint Smith

[leftiye]

The thing you need is hope. Hope he hasn't been shooting game for the table with it for forty years. Hope he didn't grow up with it doing all those things kids (used to) do with their guns. Hope he can't shoot a cigarette out of your lips at 100 paces with it. If you're stupid enough to pose for that, then you can hope he doesn't miss.

[44man]

Reminds me of the time the neighbor lady had a boyfriend that came to shoot. Big, tough guy that was White House security. He had a Block nine and at 10 yards could not hit paper.
Pete came down the hill and after watching he asked to shoot it. Pete poked the center out of the bull and so did I. Nice, easy gun to shoot.
I was shooting my .475 at 100 and tried to hand it to the guy, he just got kind of white, scared him silly. He had some kind of attitude that I never seen with the police around here. I just hope he is guarding Obumbler. About all he was good for was to throw his body in front of the Prez.

[tygar]

I just hope he is guarding Obumbler. About all he was good for was to throw his body in front of the Prez.

Just hope he's real slow & clumsy!

[44man]

Just hope he's real slow & clumsy!
[smilie=l:[smilie=l:[smilie=l:So true. Seen the paper today with a pile of security for his kids going to school. Why would he need so many guns to protect when he wants us to be unarmed? A good prez should need nobody at all. You should be able to go all over the country and with the people on the streets. To hug and take Americans hands without fear. They made their own bed.
if I was running I would want every single person to have a gun, open carry. If you have respect, Americans will keep you safe.

[FergusonTO35]

From what I saw working at the police dept., big and tough will go a long way towards getting you a cop job and securing promotions. Everything else, even having a college degree in the field, is a distance second. Really, police marksmanship is a joke in most places. I think it is most certainly a byproduct of the tacticool special operations philosophy that LE is becoming enslaved to.

[Beerd]

"Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it. -Clint Smith"


clint is smoking crack or looking to sound intelligent using an old saying. I sure don't agree. Most people with one gun rarely even shoot. I wonder how many guns he has. Last I heard he was even pretty good with them:bigsmyl2:

I think it was Mrs Clint that said it. Trying to convince her old man not to buy something. You know, "Another gun? You already have a closet full of guns you don't even shoot!"

Before her it was some un-named daughter of Eve complaining about clubs or spears.

Will we never learn? [smilie=p:
..

[NavyVet1959]

"Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it. -Clint Smith"



I think it was Mrs Clint that said it. Trying to convince her old man not to buy something. You know, "Another gun? You already have a closet full of guns you don't even shoot!"

Before her it was some un-named daughter of Eve complaining about clubs or spears.

Will we never learn? [smilie=p:
..

Probably never... Just remember, we *were* stupid enough to give them the right to vote... Is it possible that the Founding Fathers actually knew what they were doing when they excluded women from voting? I suspect so...

[M-Tecs]

For most cops a firearm is just another tool. Most are not interested in doing more than the minimum qualifications. Shooters that happen to be cops are a another matter. I grew up in a very small town. The Game Warden, The Chief of Police and the country Sherriff were my shooting buddies. In the mid to late 70's the were they were the North American PPC champions a couple of times. Two were combat experienced Nam vets and the boys could shot.

I have never shot with White House security so no comment, but, I am guessing for most a firearm is just another tool. I worked with and shot with the Secret Service. I don't know if they still do but the used to field a rifle team at Camp Perry. While they were not top level they were very good. I asked them the purpose of the team. It was stated that it was mostly to understand the capabilities for really good rifleman.

I shoot NRA High Power rifle. Every year we have a couple of SWAT members show up. They talk big until the match starts. They always finish at the bottom or near the bottom. Most don't come back. A couple of them have stuck with it and became High Masters.

[NavyVet1959]

I shoot NRA High Power rifle. Every year we have a couple of SWAT members show up. They talk big until the match starts. They always finish at the bottom or never the bottom. Most don't come back. A couple of them have stuck with it and became High Masters.

I refuse to shoot at something that I cannot see. Every year, as I get older and older, my targets must get closer and closer... :)

I used to joke that I could hit a deer at 100 yards without my glasses -- but I couldn't tell if it was a deer or a man, so I just shot to center of blur. I would then comment that for some reason, no one wanted to go hunting with me...

The look on some people's faces... Priceless... :)

[M-Tecs]

I refuse to shoot at something that I cannot see. Every year, as I get older and older, my targets must get closer and closer...

...


You can now shoot CMP Service Rifle with a scope. It's been couple of years for the NRA Service rifle.


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/01/cmp-releases-new-2016-rulebooks/


Newly-issued CMP and NRA competition rules now allow Service Rifle competitors to use optics with a max magnification of 4.5X. Service Rifle shooters can now use scopes and not just iron sights.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/02/santiago-builds-an-ar-service-rifle-to-2016-specs/

Santiago Builds an AR Service Rifle to 2016 Specs

Santiago Service Rifle

The CMP has made big changes in the Rules for service rifle competition. Now AR-based service rifles can sport optics (up to 4.5X magnification), while restrictions on buttstock and handguard configurations have been liberalized. Our friend Dennis Santiago is a seasoned service rifle shooter. He welcomed the rule changes and went right out and upgraded one of his ARs to the limits of the new rule. That’s his new rifle above. “A 2016 CMP Rule-compliant scoped service rifle takes shape. [Note the optic, the buttstock, and the handguards, and the absence of iron sights.] This is NOT your M-16A2 external dimensions rule machine of yesteryear. Literally, the 2015 rule did not allow the rifle in the photo”, says Dennis.

Santiago Service RifleThese rule changes should increase participation in service rifle matches. Certainly for competitors with aging eyes, the ability to use a 4.5X magnified optic will be a plus. In addition, the other rule changes will let competitors customize their rifles for enhanced comfort and/or ergonomics.

Dennis also upgraded his gas block assembly in front of the handguard: “This works. The clearance between the sling swivel weight bar in the Giessele Mk VII is pretty tight. Not all gas blocks will work. You also need to account for the fact that the barrel will whip during firing. If it touches, bye bye accuracy. This is a Yankee Hill Machine gas block with an optional flat piece bottom in the rear that should provide the necessary clearance. The White Oak front towers will also clear but they will shadow the optic. Their railed gas block should work too but it’s presently an unobtanium back order item.”

[Lloyd Smale]

yup, hes sure throwing stones in a glass house. He probably owns twice as many guns as I do.
"Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it. -Clint Smith"



I think it was Mrs Clint that said it. Trying to convince her old man not to buy something. You know, "Another gun? You already have a closet full of guns you don't even shoot!"

Before her it was some un-named daughter of Eve complaining about clubs or spears.

Will we never learn? [smilie=p:
..