Ordering first garand from cmp, special or service grade for cast boolits?

[bzajdek]

I realize that the special will not gain value because of the criterion barrel and aftermarket wood but I don't really mind as I am a shooter and not a collector. I am leaning towards the special even though it is an additional $300. From what I understand the barrel will be a new 4 groove lapped and might shoot a cast boolit better.

The usgi barrel is a **** shoot and May be worn from use or field cleaning. I am new to garand's and if I understand correctly accuracy is not just a match barrel but also a tight fitting stock and other parts.

So I am assuming a good usgi barrel may shoot Jacketed bullets as good as a new barrel the criterion may be better for getting small cast boolit groups. The new wood stock may also help with accuracy and may need a small amount of bedding in the future. I also would not mind all the metal getting a new parkerizing finish.

My concern with the special is a tight chamber that might not play well with oversize cast boolits???

I have not purchased a mold for this rifle yet, but have heard a 311299 is the go to mold. I own a 311291 for 30/30 and a 311284 also but read the 311299 usually gets the nod in the accuracy department.
I have a Lyman 450 lube sizer, powder coat, and tumble lube so I have several possibilities.

i think my main concern is a tight throat with the criterion barrel not chamfering oversize cast boolits, but I think it would be better than rolling the dice with a usgi barrel. Some may say buy both while you can get them but that is not possible and this will probably be my one and only garand. I also have a 7.7 arisaka and a mosin 91/30 that I will cast for in the future with a noe 314299 and my lever action 30-30.

Thanks for any feedback, help, or opinions...

[William Yanda]

My opinion:
A CMP Garand in on my some day list. I lean toward the service grade and perhaps later a cmp stock. It is my understanding that the service grade have muzzle and bore wear within limits.....3 or less without looking. I would not be looking for max velocities, though harder alloys would be desirable to use with the gas operating system.
Again, my opinion only, subject to advice of those with actual experience.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

My service grade 1956 vintage eats cast 95% of the time,shoots em as well or better than the Greek surplus@100.Add a CMP furniture kit later as stated above.As for value,if you care,it'll be there,just look at what a service grade sold for 15yrs. ago!!!!.Also that 314299 may be just the ticket for an oversize G.I. barrel.My cast alloy is #2 Lyman based,and I shoot them in the Garand and M1A with NO GAS SYSTEM ISSUE.

[Harry O]

I have one Garand from the DCM and two from the CMP. All were service grade. All are as accurate as can be expected from a military weapon. Each is a little different. One is a little more accurate than the others, even though there is no noticable difference between the muzzle and throat gauges between the three guns (they are all 1+ to 2 at the muzzle). I thought about getting one of the newly rebuilt specials the last time around, but decided not to. I was able to shoot 269 our of 300 with the best one once upon a time. As my eyes are starting to go, my scores have been getting smaller in recent years. I don't think a new barrel will change that.

[country gent]

Criterion barrels are good and new wood can relieve alot of old wood issues. A good glass bedding can make a big diffrence though. Even fresh inletting may not fit as good as it should and garands are hard on bedding areas due to little surface area. It used to be the practice to shim stocks with paper or card board in areas that were loose. DCM rifles are good rifles and ussually a known as their descriptions of the various grade is good.

[goryshaw]

I have a HRA service grade, an IHC service grade w/LMR, a HRA service grade special w/LMR and a CMP Special .308. The only one that gets any use is the HRA service grade.

The only difference between the service grade and the CMP special is the criterion barrel and reparked metal on the CMP special. Most service grades are coming with CMP wood anymore, and that's not really an improvement over USGI wood. Service grade barrels will still have pretty low muzzle and throat wear, all three of mine were essentially new. The criterion may be better than the average USGI barrel, but unless you go fully match prepped I doubt you will be able to tell a difference. I'd buy the service grade, and spend the $300 difference on HXP ammo to shoot out of it.

[leadman]

Haven't followed the posts on the CMP forum lately but there were comments about the condition of some of the barrels. I lucked into a Danish return with a brand new Danish VAR barrel on it.
Since the barrel on the special is new along with the wood this is the one I would pick. If you have accuracy issues the CMP will probably be more inclined to take a look at than they would with a gun and a worn barrel and wood. I doubt you will ever lose money on the gun.

[starnbar]

I have a service grade and as some have commented you pay your money and take your chance however the service rifles are inspected and a barrel gauge is employed to grade them the one I have which is a Feb 1944 manu is a good rifle and it will stay with the specials as I have shot quite a few military rifle matches with it good luck on your pick

[lancem]

My $.02, I wouldn't be concerned about collector value. Millions were made, probably a million in civilian hands. If you want a shooter then I would focus on what would make one.

[bzajdek]

Correct not concerned about value, and Harry posted 1 out of 3 was a better shooter even though they all measure +2. I could save the additional money if it is a confirmed shooter, would like to visit one of the two stores but just too far away. I have been on the cmp forums and most are happy with service grade but one out of 20 posts shows a barrel that looks like it definitely needs a re-crown and most on there shoot Greek surplus or reloads, not many casters like here. I think in the smallest state Rhode Island there is only 1 gunsmith and he is 80. A lot of shops will mount a scope or install replacement or aftermarket parts. Not many that have machine shops to perform rebarreling unless it's a savage with a barrel nut. Still not sure which way too go? People on the cmp forums think the supply may last another year. There will always probably be original ones on popular gun auction sites and if surplus drys up more will show up there. I am only 40 years old and younger people seem to love black rifles hell I have a few myself but I think collectors of old guns are shrinking.

[Hick]

Mine's a Service Grade Special with original barrel-- new wood with all original metal parts-- Shoots great (but I don't do matches). I shoot nothing but reloads, some jacketed and some cast. I doubt you cold go wrong with Service Grade

[M-Tecs]

I have a HRA service grade, an IHC service grade w/LMR, a HRA service grade special w/LMR and a CMP Special .308. The only one that gets any use is the HRA service grade.

The only difference between the service grade and the CMP special is the criterion barrel and reparked metal on the CMP special. Most service grades are coming with CMP wood anymore, and that's not really an improvement over USGI wood. Service grade barrels will still have pretty low muzzle and throat wear, all three of mine were essentially new. The criterion may be better than the average USGI barrel, but unless you go fully match prepped I doubt you will be able to tell a difference. I'd buy the service grade, and spend the $300 difference on HXP ammo to shoot out of it.

Fully concur. If you are planning future competitions with it the criterion barrel is the way to go but if you leave it as service grade you won't be able to tell the difference.

Must gunsmith's don't understand accurization of M1's & M14's. Only use ones that specialize on M1's.

[Harry O]

One of my three Garands came with new wood even though it was a service grade. A few things should be said about that. I came in ugly pumpkin orange. I don't know if enough people complained for them to change it to a wood color. If not, I would recommend stripping the color off and redoing it.

In addition, I was having problems with feeding when I first shot it. When I stripped it down for cleaning, I saw that the right rear end of the bolt was hitting the rear of the wood cutout. I stripped down one with a GI stock and saw that there was a notch in the GI stock there. I duplicated the notch in the new stock and did not have any other problems with feeding. I also found webpage that went into detail about fitting a new CMP stock correctly. There were 4 or 5 places that had to be adjusted (another important one is the back bottom of the trigger assembly). After that was all done, it worked just as well as a GI stock.

One other thing. GI stocks are not always perfect either. One of mine had the trigger assembly lock up very easily. I read that the forward rebuild facilities in WW2 would glue a thin (1/64" or 1/32") piece of wood on the bottom of the stock where the trigger assembly locks in. I had some model plywood that thickness and ended up with 1/32" slivers that were thinned slightly after gluing. I am guessing halfway between the two thicknesses. It locks up just like the others now.

[goryshaw]

Most service grades are coming with new wood anymore, fortunately no longer the pumpkin stocks however. The new stocks are very nice looking wood, but they do usually need a bit of work to function reliably. There are guides on the CMP forums of what you need to do. My .308 CMP Special just needed a bit of sanding to keep the oprod from rubbing, and I've never had any function problems with it. It isn't as accurate as I would like, I still need to work over the front handguard. The new stocks are also noticeably fatter than my USGI ones. I believe Boyds modeled them after late production stocks, and earlier USGI stocks are slimmer. I prefer the the USGI, but thats a subjective opinion, your mileage may vary.

USGI wood is a crapshoot, my HRA service grade has a correct HRA stock that locks up tight. My IHC service grade isn't so lucky, it has a Springfield stock that is so loose that as soon as you release the trigger guard latch the whole gun just falls into 3 pieces. Probably just taken apart and re-assembled so many times it loosened up. Shimming or bedding can fix that, but if you're going to shoot CMP Garand matches neither is allowed.

[bzajdek]

Thanks for the replies, Wondering how a usgi barrel will handle lead compared to the criterion barrel. Is it more prone to leading or if you fi the boolit to the chamber you will have little problems. This is the first auto loader i would try to shoot cast boolits in! I guess I could go either way at this point.

[goryshaw]

I'm using NOE 311299, sized to .311 with aluminum vulcan checks and double lubed with BLL. Absolutely no sign of leading in my HRA service grade. 40 grains of IMR 4350 cycles reliably and holds 10 ring (3 moa) windage. Vertical stringing over the entire 9 ring (6 moa), but next round of loads I'll try some dacron and see if that helps. Every gun is going to have its own issues, but I'm pretty sure that with a bit more work my USGI barrel will clean an SR or an SR-1. That's slung up prone off of a mat, not from a bench and bags.

[lobogunleather]

The topic of cast bullets in the M1 Garand rifles was explored and reported extensively by Col. E. H. Harrison in the publication "Cast Bullets" (c. 1979, NRA), essentially a compilation of more than 25 years of experimentation and experience.

One very important observation was made: shooting cast bullets in the M1 invariably results in small particles of the lead bullets being driven through the gas port into the gas cylinder, where the lead builds up in the cylinder and on the face of the operating rod. This affects the functioning of the rifle and requires frequent cleaning of the gas cylinder and operating rod, which accelerates wear on those critical parts. Problems were reported in several M1 rifles with as few as 100-200 rounds of cast bullet loads (even those with gas checks). Replacing the gas cylinder and operating rod on the M1 rifle is not an insurmountable task, but this is one job best left to competent gunsmiths having experience with this rifle, with parts and labor likely to exceed $300 or so.

I started purchasing CMP M1 rifles in 2001 and have acquired over a dozen. I enjoy shooting these fine rifles, but I have adhered to Col. Harrison's advice and limited my shooting to jacketed bullets only. I continue to enjoy cast bullet loads in the 1903 Springfield, 1898 Krag, and other old military rifles.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

163098Not to be argumentative but I read something different in the Col.'s comment regarding cast!!163097163097
The topic of cast bullets in the M1 Garand rifles was explored and reported extensively by Col. E. H. Harrison in the publication "Cast Bullets" (c. 1979, NRA), essentially a compilation of more than 25 years of experimentation and experience.

One very important observation was made: shooting cast bullets in the M1 invariably results in small particles of the lead bullets being driven through the gas port into the gas cylinder, where the lead builds up in the cylinder and on the face of the operating rod. This affects the functioning of the rifle and requires frequent cleaning of the gas cylinder and operating rod, which accelerates wear on those critical parts. Problems were reported in several M1 rifles with as few as 100-200 rounds of cast bullet loads (even those with gas checks). Replacing the gas cylinder and operating rod on the M1 rifle is not an insurmountable task, but this is one job best left to competent gunsmiths having experience with this rifle, with parts and labor likely to exceed $300 or so.

I started purchasing CMP M1 rifles in 2001 and have acquired over a dozen. I enjoy shooting these fine rifles, but I have adhered to Col. Harrison's advice and limited my shooting to jacketed bullets only. I continue to enjoy cast bullet loads in the 1903 Springfield, 1898 Krag, and other old military rifles.

[lobogunleather]

163098Not to be argumentative but I read something different in the Col.'s comment regarding cast!!163097163097

I don't find this to be argumentative, just a demonstration of the value of this forum. Sharing of different viewpoints and ideas is a positive thing.

Best regards.

[gnoahhh]

Personally I would opt for the special grade. Those Criterion barrels will shoot. I feel that it is nice to experience the joys of a fresh new barrel in terms of what it was like to be issued a factory fresh M1, and breaking its cherry on the 200 yard line.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

Thank You Sir, that was my intention. I have found in my 1956 Garand that the yearly tear down and clean/lube address' any lead in the gas system.Correct sizing and lube are the key to success.
I don't find this to be argumentative, just a demonstration of the value of this forum. Sharing of different viewpoints and ideas is a positive thing.

Best regards.

[KA0811]

Over the past4 years I have bought 5 service grades 1 rack and one hra service special. Two of my service grade 50's era guns came basically correct stocks parts etc.original barrels. The others were MIS matched. Greek rebuilds pumkin woods etc. But they all shoot. In my experience if you do end up with a rotten barrel or broken stock/parts CMP Customer service is great and on top of it.and buying and installing a criterion barrel at a later date is always an option and not real expensive either. It comes to preference, I choose service/rack grades etc because I enjoy the history or them. Oh and don't under estimate the power of putting a sticky note with preferences attached to your order form. They say it doesn't effect their choice but I've always got what I asked for... Ww2 date or usgi wood And metal etc etc

[GooseGestapo]

Last year I bought a "Special". I already had a match prepped rifle I inherited from my older brother. His has a Douglas XX barrel that was turned by a gunsmith and he successfully used it in NRA high power competition in the '80's. It shoots cast bullets exquisitely! Under 2" at 100yds with 200gr Lee RNGC over 34.5gr H4895. I use it to practice for the Garand matches. It's unbelievably SMOOTH shooting. Cycles like a dream.I use the Special for the JCG matches as its "Legal" whereas the match gun isn't. Match gun has standard (not nm) lock bar sight with match hooded aperture and nm front sight. Stock is a glass bedded aftermarket Walnut stock. It's moa or better with a 168gr Sierra MK or Lapua Scenar. I shot two back to back sub moa 5- shot groups with both from the bench using H4895. My brother always used IMR4064, but my testing show 4895 to be notably better.

The CMP special with its criterion barrel is darn near as accurate as the "match" gun. I've easily "medaled" in the last two of three total Garand matches I've shot with it, missing a silver medal by 1pt in last match. Though I haven't tried cast bullets in it, I have no doubt it will shoot them well. I got it for a "shooter". I'm not disappointed or dissatisfied! New wood, properly fitted and a new barrel, as well as everything else refinished and properly fitted makes them essentially NEW guns. I made my choice at the store as I live only 80miles away. The rack grade guns they have as well as the service grade are ROUGH IMO. Most have throats and muzzles that grade 3-4 or worse. They'll go bang and hit in the general vicinity of where they're pointed, BUT, I think you'll be dissapointed with anything other than a Special if you intend to shoot it with cast.

My Special will shoot near 1moa with Creedmoor Sports 168gr '06 factory ammo with Lapua bullets and brass. I shoot the matches with Hornady 150gr FMJ's over 48.0gr of H4895 in prepped Federal brass. They easily shoot under 2moa and hold the X-ring at the 200yd distance the matches are fired at. I got the Creedmoor ammo at a clinic I shot/attended. Couldn't bring myself to "waste" it in a clinic. With the Hornady's in my match gun, after getting the sights adjusted, I had no problem holding the 9ring or better at the 600yd line at Talladega. It is essentially a " correct" gun as everything except barrel and stock are SA, of the proper time frame for the 1.95 serial#. Trigger is/was good, just meeting the minimum pull weight. It smoothed out quickly from re- finish.

IMO, the Special is more than worth the upcharge from the lower grades.
added; with the savings shooting cast, cost of two cans of HXP surplus is the difference between confidence and a "shot in the dark".

[Uncle R.]

I love my CMP Special. Right from the hard plastic CMP case they shipped it in with no modification at all it's beautiful, reliable, and spooky accurate. It looks and feels like a brand-new rifle, and boy does it shoot! I get many groups at or near 2 MOA with HXP Greek ammo and a no-talent dub (Me!) Behind the stock. In the hands of a skilled rifleman with 168 gr Sierras I expect it would approach MOA. My CMP Special is my third Garand and far better - miles better - than my first two. Like the OP I wanted a shooter, and by Gorry this time I got one in spades. I consider the extra money paid for the Special well spent.

As usual, just my experience. Your mileage may vary, etc. etc.
Good luck in your quest!

Uncle R.