Bad news from bore cam screen

[TXGunNut]

Finally used my bore cam on a couple more rifles, first time out they confirmed my suspicions on a couple of early 92's in 32WCF. At least one is destined for a reline, both need one to be shooters. Today I scoped my Marlin 336 in 35 Rem and all looked great. Then I dug out my old 1873 in 38-40 and look a long, hard look. Didn't like what I saw; moderate pitting near the chamber and lands a bit weak toward the muzzle. Corrosive primers and improper cleaning seem to have taken their toll. Overall it's better than my 32-20's but range time will tell if rifling is strong enough for CB's. It didn't do very well with a few BP loads my shooting buddy had on hand last trip, thinking I'll try some other loads on a future trip. Problem is this rifle has a fair bit of collector value so relining it is a tough call. I really wanted a shooter when I bought this rife, just turned out to be a very unusual gun. Guess I have some shooting and research to do. I think I'll ask for opinions over on the WACA board, pretty sure I know what they'll say, tho.
I think I'd rather have a shooter than a collector piece but I'm greedy; I want both. What would you do?
Had a thread awhile back on this rife, here's a pic if that helps.

[turtlezx]

try the fattest boolit that will chamber .
Maybe enough to grab the rifling and shoot well

[osteodoc08]

Hold onto it as is and look for a shooter grade

[fast ronnie]

Hold onto it as is and look for a shooter grade


I agree. If the gun is valuable, find another to shoot. There are a lot of good shooters out there that you can tweek on without destroying the value.:redneck:

[JSnover]

It didn't do very well with a few BP loads my shooting buddy had on hand last trip, thinking I'll try some other loads on a future trip
Like Turtlezx said, try some fatter boolits. You might be surprised when you find out what that rifle likes.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

If the muzzle crown is still good, I have always been amazed by how well an ugly bore can still shoot.

[TXGunNut]

If the muzzle crown is still good, I have always been amazed by how well an ugly bore can still shoot.

I don't have much experience with that but I'm hopeful. Just sized a handful of brass and tossed them in the tumbler while I sized a few boolits. Don't have any experience loading this cartridge either so establishing a baseline will be interesting. Wasn't planning on starting this project this soon but it's on my mind. Guess I'll go load a few and see what happens.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Guess I'll go load a few and see what happens.

That's always the best starting point! It is amazing what a handful of paper patch boolits will do as well. Paper patched boolits seem to do just as good as fire lapping a bore. If the gun still won't shoot to an acceptable level of accuracy I would then look at having the crown recut. I have had a few rifles that showed no obvious signs of damage at the crown, but still wouldn't shoot. I had the barrels trimmed a 1/4" and re-crowned. The improvement in accuracy was spectacular.

[John Boy]

Like Turtlezx said, try some fatter boolits. You might be surprised when you find out what that rifle likes. And shoot them fat bullets with black powder which will give good accuracy. Old gunsmith tip![smilie=s:

[TXGunNut]

I like the fat boolit idea, Accurate mould drops @ .402+ but only have a .401 sizer. I have an order started @ Midway, will see if they have one later. Guess I could tumble or pan lube the boolits and shoot them as cast. Loaded up 19 (oops) over 8grs Unique and put them in the shooting bag.
Crown looks good but buddy's 38-40 was helped by cleaning up the crown a bit. I think his would benefit from fatter boolits as well.

[enfield]

I don't need a bore scope to see how poor the condition on my 73, 92 and Marlin 94 are ( 38-40 25-20 32-20 ) and they still shoot surprisingly well. It also gives you an excuse on the very rare occasion that you miss a target :)

[shoot-n-lead]

I have seen some terrible bores that shot mighty good...it is not the problem that some think it is . I would shoot fullsize bullets and not give it another thought.

[TXGunNut]

Ya'll have talked me into it, I'm going to figure out how to make this old girl shoot. Thanks, will have a range report later today!

[sliphammer]

Snooky Williamson would wrap his sized lead bullets in plumbers Teflon tape and then heat them with a butane lighter. The tape shrinks right to the lube. He hunted with 92s,94s, 85s, and 86s, using these bullets in rifles with bad bores.

[TXGunNut]

Well, how do you go about apologizing to a 94 year old rifle? Had a very good day with two other rifles and was a bit apprehensive when I uncased the '73. Feed and chamber check went well, always grin when I cycle the action on a slick old gun like this one. Sights looked even tinier and more beat up than they did at home. First shot went OK. A fair bit high and a little right...on the wrong target. Loose nut behind the butt. :bigsmyl2:
Second round was pretty much the same, but on the right target. My buddy was spotting for me and was pretty impressed; neither of us do well with semi-buckhorn sights but I was doing the best I could. The notch in this rifle's rear sight is pretty tiny, much more so than later Winchesters. Next four rounds fell into a group that left me almost speechless. 50 yard group measured about 1.5" tall and 1.0" wide!
I was shooting pretty decent load development groups bigger than that earlier today...with scoped (somewhat) modern rifles with near-perfect bores. (No pics, hopefully tomorrow.) Next few rounds opened up the group considerably. Haven't cleaned the bore yet so don't know it it's fouled or if my presbyopic eyes just got tired.
Bottom line, this old girl still has some good shooting left in her. Rear sight is bottomed out but I have a few taller sights and I'll be hunting up a tang sight. I think I'll tumble lube a few as-cast boolits and see if they fit better. Powder charge was 8grs Unique and I think I'll stick with that.
I committed to making this rifle shoot earlier today but quite honestly thought I was in for a bit of a chore. I was obviously wrong, pretty happy about that though. I know ugly bores sometimes shoot but this was the first time I've seen it for myself. Thanks for the encouragement, guys. You were right!

[TXGunNut]

Got my phone and laptop to quit fighting:

[Geezer in NH]

So much for the technology of bore scopes eh? They are bringing money to fixes that are not really needed.

As a retired smith if I had that I would now have a better retirement. :bigsmyl2:

ALWAYS believe the target results!!!!!!!!!!

[Three44s]

Great on you, TXGunNut!

It sure is good when you see a plan come together!!

Best regards

Three 44s

[flint45]

Looks like it shoots just fine.

[TXGunNut]

Bore cleaned up fine, no significant fouling. Guess my eyes were just getting tired. Tang sight on the way. I think the bore cam is a good tool, in this case I was a bit pessimistic about what I saw. Seems in this case a simple paper target trumped technology.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Bad looking bores can shoot very well. I find groups open much faster with the worn and rough bores. A smooth bore with the right load may shoot 100, 200 rounds with little loss of accuracy. I have a rough 8mm Mauser that opens groups after 15 rounds. You may need to keep it clean or work on a very clean shooting load to keep groups tight.

[TXGunNut]

I agree about a rough bore fouling quicker. I have a couple of 32-20's that foul after just a few rounds and even those rounds are not in decent group. One or both will likely be relined depending on collector value.
This rifle cleaned up without much fouling. Should have useable sights on it this weekend and will know more about it after that. I can live with 15 rounds between cleanings but I'm hoping for 20 or 30. It's too rough for BP but I can live with that too.

[MtGun44]

Mr Target knows a LOT more than Mr. Borescope. Yes, a borescope is very useful
for learning about barrels, but the reality is that bores that look terrible often shoot
well, and bores that look great often shoot poorly.

I have had access to a top quality borescope for a couple of decades, had fun playing with
it at first, but rarely bother any more. Load some ammo, and go let Mr. Target
tell you if the barrel is good or bad. Mr. Borescope isn't sure.

Bill

[TXGunNut]

Borescope was right on the money with a couple on 32-20's and it did tell me why BP rounds fouled so badly in this 1873. The resolution of this little camera is pretty amazing. Still looking for a 38-40 with a nice, slick bore for shooting BP rounds. Pretty sure I won't be able to afford it, lol.

[35 Whelen]

I'm new to the 1873 Winchester and the 38-40 as well. By sheer happenstance I found a 24" 1890 production semi locally and snagged it. Not one week later, I got a call from an auction house stating a bidder had jumped ship on another just like the first, only made in 1886. I couldn't afford, but we all know where there's a will there's a way.

I'll try to be brief. The '86 is the rougher of the two and some genius polished and cold blued it long ago, thus less collector value. No biggie because it's turned brown and doesn't look too bad, but it had a bore that was beyond hope. Had it lined by John Taylor. I used a little Birchwood Casey Plum Brown on the muzzle and chamber and now you have to be looking for the liner to know it's there. The rifle came with an aftermarket tang sight, so I use the open sight for 100 yds. and less, and set the tang sight for 200 yds. Here's how she does at 200 (100 yds. is a little boring now!):

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Herco_zpsg5fcpll0.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsgzg7jjnt.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/200%20yds.%20Unique_zpsgzg7jjnt.jpg.html)

The 1890 production has a rough bore, has tons of "been there, done that" look, but is mechanically superb and shoots decent with some .403" bullets I ordered. BTW, you'll not find a .403" sizer anywhere. I bought a Lee .401" and opened it up, but went a little too fast, so I ordered a .401" for my lubrisizer and will open it up.

The 1890 in her native environment:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/20160215_103543_zps4iqehikt.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/20160215_103543_zps4iqehikt.jpg.html)

This is a 50 yd. target fired with the .403" bullets over a light load of Clays:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/20160215_103506_zpsijxanlii.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Winchester/1873%20Winchester-%201886%20Production/20160215_103506_zpsijxanlii.jpg.html)

I reckon I'll be selling the 1890 as it is original and just keep the '86 to go with my two Colt Bisley's which are also 38-40's.

35W

[TXGunNut]

Nice guns, looks like both have spent some long days in a saddle scabbard but I like that! I have one, maybe two 1892 32-20's going to make John Taylor's acquaintance as soon as I sort some things out. One or both may have some collector value so will have to weigh that before I make a shooter out of them. My 1873 probably has significant collector so will not do any permanent alterations. Got a Marble tang sight in for my 1873 today and have an assortment of Marble front sights, will be putting some more rounds downrange soon. I think BACO will make a .403 sizer, folks here on the site will also. I tried to buy a Bisley in 38-40 a few months ago but timing was too sloppy and the rest of the gun wasn't much better, I agree that an 1873 Winchester needs a companion 1873 Colt...or two...so will keep an eye out.

[TXGunNut]

Taller Marble gold bead front sight, Brownell's "Fancy" rear sight insert, and Marbles tang sight all installed tonight. Original parts bagged and tagged. Ammo loaded. If I can slip out to the range before the wind comes up it could be a very good day!

[Speedo66]

My 1889 '73 in .38-40 also looks like a corroded sewer pipe but shoots surprisingly well. I was expecting key holing, but it groups them on target very well. Bowling pins at 60 yards are easy.

I use 180g. Missouri cast boolits over 6g. of Trail-Boss. Very mild, but for me, accurate load.

[Char-Gar]

Bore cam, smor cam...the only things that matters is how well the bullets play follow the leader to the target. Spending money on a gadget that makes you spend more money needlessly hold no attraction for me. People make lots of money, designing, making and selling things nobody needs. You have been had by the "tech fairy".

[TXGunNut]

Bore cam, smor cam...the only things that matters is how well the bullets play follow the leader to the target. Spending money on a gadget that makes you spend more money needlessly hold no attraction for me. People make lots of money, designing, making and selling things nobody needs. You have been had by the "tech fairy".

Maybe so, my wise friend. I'm learning the trick is interpreting what I see on the little screen. I fired about 40 rounds thru this rifle Sunday while load-testing and sighting in a tang sight and a Marble bead front sight. Accuracy does deteriorate after 15-30 rounds but the last 15 rounds or so were about 3" @ 50 yds. I'm thinking this old-timer can hold it's own with a clean bore for about 50 rounds, good enough for an historic plinker.
I'll need to load another 50 rounds to confirm my findings and I'm looking forward to that range test. This is one sweet-shooting 1873, I really enjoy putting her thru her paces. I could watch that action work for hours, lol.