22 Long Rifle for Old Guns

[jakharath]

Howdy! Have a few 22's that are 70+ years old. One is a Stevens Junior Model 11 that I'm working on. What's a good/safe/low pressure 22lr to shoot in them?

[jcren]

If you can find em, my 550-1 and my dad's old model nylon 66 love Winchester Wildcats.

[straightwall]

CCI SV (Standard Velocity) at 1070 fps, or maybe CCI Quiet at 710 fps
Maybe Aguila SV

[Windwalker 45acp]

anything standard pressure will do just fine. I have a mid-20's Remington M12 that I shoot mostly Federal through, does just fine.

If it's in sound condition, don't worry about the age of it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Assuming good condition I would expect any modern standard velocity round to be safe in that particular rifle or about any American boy;s rifle, but wouldn't use high velocity. I don't believe the prospect of its blowing open is great, but you could get a case splitting at the rim or rupturing at the firing-pin.

There are some conditions of other firearms which are worth inquiring about by name, as someone here is likely to know. For example the 19th and early 20th century Marlin rimfires had a deep cutout behind the bolt which was fine with standard velocity ammunition but could crack with HV. They modified it in 1932, so any Marlin 39 with an H prefix to the serial number is safe, as is any 39A. This is my 1892, made somewhere around 1905:



Colt made a similar change in 1933 with tis phe Woodsman pistol, in this case by a stronger mainspring and a hardened mainspring housing. In this case the parts are probably more likely to have been used to upgrade earlier pistols. Mainspring housings with a checkered patch for the web of the hand are standard velocity, while those with horizontal lines or no pattern (i.e. post-WW2), or any named Huntsman or Targetsman, are fine with high velocity. With the Woodsman and no doubt plenty of other firearms, serial numbers are some way off being a reliable guide for this purpose.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Fwiw industry maximum pressure standards for .22lr is 24,000 psi, cci mini mags typically run near that, standard velocity typically runs 19,000 psi average BUT there are no grantees because as long as the ammo being manufactured is within is recommended velocity range and under the maximum 24000 psi it is considered within spec. Should be safe with a standard velocity but even some subsonic ammo is designed to have low velocity but high enough pressure to cycle semi autos... I'm going to be completely honest I don't believe that 24000 psi is enough to do any real damage or excessive wear on a rifle even 70 years old. I hold the bolt shut on my 10/22 with my thumb all the time when firing.

[Forrest r]

Any 22lr rimfire firearm made in 1926 or later was made to the same pressure standards that is in use today. That being said I use sub-sonics or sv ammo in my older 22lrs.

[JSnover]

I own a Remington 341 made in the late '30s that shoots everything just fine.

[jakharath]

Guys thanks for the information!

Now just need to find the right take down screw for the Stevens Junior. I'll keep my eye out for a unicorn while I'm at it. ;)

[John Boy]

I own a Remington 341 made in the late '30s that shoots everything just fine.
The fastest 22LR on the market is RWS, 40-gr. R100 (213 4195), 1175 MV, 123 ME, 0.130 BC
In an 1887 Ballard, I shoot BP reloads that are 1205 fps ... no issues

[Mica_Hiebert]

The fastest 22LR on the market is RWS, 40-gr. R100 (213 4195), 1175 MV, 123 ME, 0.130 BC
In an 1887 Ballard, I shoot BP reloads that are 1205 fps ... no issues


the minimags I loaded tonight clocked 1300 fps down at our quality department and stingers are allot faster than that...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Something very fishy went on with Eley High Velocity .22 rimfire, which carried a health warning on the box that they should be used with modern firearms in good condition. In the 60s, and for I don't know how much longer, it was advertised as 1400ft./sec. with the 40gr. solid or 37gr. hollow point. Few amateurs used chronographs then, but it certainly lived up to the trajectory they claimed. Professionals did have chronographs, though, and I can hardly believe that they faked the figures. My guess is that they suddenly realized that they were out on a limb by exceeding SAAMI pressures. But I never noticed any signs in case deformation, primer indentation etc. Nowadays their website describes their High Velocity Hollow Point at 1250ft./sec., and it isn't in their 2015 product guide at all.

I'd much prefer the original version if it existed. Even on paper, the Stinger's advantage, including trajectory, was all gone by 100 yards. Long ago, when it was legal, I shot a 60lb. deer with CCI Stingers - passing up a few opportunities until I got the chance to delivery four in a palm-sized area in short order. It worked about as fast as a good deer rifle usually does. But if I had known, as I later found out, that Stingers disintegrate into small fragments and hit nothing beyond five inches of water, I wouldn't have attempted it.

[Treeman]

Regarding that Eley High velocity....way back Winchester /Western had some 1400fps plus High Velocity loads(my memory is throwing up 1435 but I'm not certain). It got toned back to an advertised 1360 and now 1280. For a while manufacturers seemed to be excited about pushing performance levels possible with newer propellants.....then they calmed down. We rightly blame lawyers for some of it but it is also likely that the hot loads did stress some of the older autoloaders somewhat -not because pressures were dangerous but the the equal and opposite reaction of such high performance stuff battered action parts.
CCI's Stinger development took everything into account-lightening the bullet lengthening the case, shortening bearing surface and testing extensively in autoloading mechanisms.

[Hick]

My 1907 build Remington Model 4 uses any 22LR you can buy-- including the so-called "mini-mags"

[goryshaw]

I have my father's Winchester model 1906 pump action made in 1916. Shot who knows how many rounds from it as a teenager, and never differentiated between standard and high velocity. Mostly CCI Blazers, or whatever remchester I could find on sale. Older and wiser now, would just stay with standard velocity if I shot it anymore. Unfortunately, the razor blade of a front site isn't as friendly on the eyes as I enter my 5th decade as it was as a teenager, so I haven't shot it for a while.

[leadman]

I have been firing different brands of 22 short lately and was surprised at the velocity. Most are over 1,100 fps. The old Stingers would clock almost 1,700 fps thru my Remington 581 with 24" barrel.

[gilgsn]

When I was a kid I was popping .22s in a piece of small copper tubing I had found that just happened to have the correct inside diameter... Never blew up...

Gil

[Chev. William]

I have my father's Winchester model 1906 pump action made in 1916. Shot who knows how many rounds from it as a teenager, and never differentiated between standard and high velocity. Mostly CCI Blazers, or whatever remchester I could find on sale. Older and wiser now, would just stay with standard velocity if I shot it anymore. Unfortunately, the razor blade of a front site isn't as friendly on the eyes as I enter my 5th decade as it was as a teenager, so I haven't shot it for a while.

You Might reconsider Shooting that Win 1906 Pump as it is at least as Strong as a Win 1890 Pump and I have two that digest .22WRF and .22WMR Cartridges, one Interchangeably, the older one by Hand feeding single cartridges. The Newer one was Refinished at some time in its past and is fitted with the "Multiple Caliber" Win Carrier/Lifter 'toggle' piece that allows it to feed WRF and WMR interchangeably.

The older Win 1890 has a five digit Serial Number and last time out still would hit a .22 !00 yard Bull near the Center even with my 73 year old Eyes.

Both my gunsmith and myself believe the rifle design is strong enough for the Cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[jlchucker]

70 years ago would have been 1946. Time sure flies. When I think about "old 22's" I've always thought of them in pre-1940 terms. Time sure flies.

[Shawlerbrook]

Yep, definitely standard velocity or less. Even though nothing would probably happen, no need to stress the senior citizens with high or hyper velocity ammo.

[Larry in MT]

I have 104 year old Winchester '06. It doesn't seem to mind HV long rifles but I feed it CCI or Federal Standard Velocity when I can find them.

[HangFireW8]

Any major brand standard velocity load will do, but the safety will be primarily determined by headspace and cartridge support.

Some Stevens Favorites are so loose-goosey now they can fire without proper lockup, even with the lever held shut.

[3006guns]

A precautionary note about Remington .22's.......

About twenty years ago I bought a case of Remingtons because they were on sale at our local hardware store for $25. That's right, $25 a CASE. I took them home and immediately brought out my Remington 514.....my first rifle......and started plinking. Every round failed to extract. I examined the extractor, puzzled because the gun was still like new. No problem there, still a nice sharp hook and a good spring. I then looked at a few of the cases I had pried out and every one of them had a "hump" right where the extractor groove was in the breech. The cases were so thin that the pressure caused a bulge so that the extractor hook rode right over the top, leaving the case in the chamber.

I sold that case to a guy I didn't like anyway, so at least I got most of my money back, but I've avoided Remington ammo since. I have no idea if they ever solved the problem or not.

[303Guy]

I bought a heap of Remington ammo because it was cheap. I got got tired of the blow back into my face. I still have most of them. I plan to try them in other rifles to see if the same thing happens. They might work OK in one of them.

The point made by Ballistics in Scotland concerns case support, not gun strength.



There are some conditions of other firearms which are worth inquiring about by name, as someone here is likely to know. For example the 19th and early 20th century Marlin rimfires had a deep cutout behind the bolt which was fine with standard velocity ammunition but could crack with HV. They modified it in 1932, so any Marlin 39 with an H prefix to the serial number is safe, as is any 39A.

A competent person could soon ascertain whether the rifle is safe with higher pressure rounds or not. However, standard velocity or subsonics might be more accurate.

[victorfox]

my BIL has an old double barrel derringer (we call them "garrucha", spoken like "gar-oo-sha")and we only run std ammo on it. Like others spoke, std velocity/subs is fine. high or hyper velocity, risky. They may not destroy your gun, but I wouldn't take unecessary risks.

[bpd303]

I realize this is a very old thread and I haven't logged on since before that. However I have just acquired a very nice Stevens model 10 Junior rifle and researching it, found out about not using Hi Velocity ammo in it. The problem with Hi Velocity rounds is the stress it puts on the breech block, not any danger of blowing up the barrel. I went through my stock of 22 ammo and found I have a lot of standard velocity ammo, some dating to the early 50s. That case being, I will be prudent and only shoot the recommended standard ammo in it.

[dtknowles]

How to be sure that standard velocity ammo operates at a lower pressure? Lower velocity does not always mean lower pressure.

Tim

[Hannibal]

The brass on new manufacture ammunition is not as thick as it once was. Brass costs have increased and newer rifle designs have fully supported chambers. If you have a rifle manufactured long ago that does not have a fully supported chamber due to the extractor design you will quite possibly experience case ruptures in the extractor area.

Not much to be done about it either. It is what it is. Went down this rabbit hole myself about 6 months ago so I am well educated in the problem. The particular rifle I was experiencing trouble with was a Remington #6. I'm sure there are plenty others.

[M-Tecs]

The brass on new manufacture ammunition is not as thick as it once was. Brass costs have increased and newer rifle designs have fully supported chambers. If you have a rifle manufactured long ago that does not have a fully supported chamber due to the extractor design you will quite possibly experience case ruptures in the extractor area.

Not much to be done about it either. It is what it is. Went down this rabbit hole myself about 6 months ago so I am well educated in the problem. The particular rifle I was experiencing trouble with was a Remington #6. I'm sure there are plenty others.

I was not aware of that. Thanks for the info.

[higgins]

Havlin Sales is a supplier specializing in parts both original and of their making for Mossberg .22s. They recommend .22 standard velocity in the old guns. I decided that is not so much an issue of chamber pressure as it is the increased slamming effect high velocity would impart on the semiauto actions. Some parts of those old semiautos cannot be replaced if they break.

[popper]

Most non-bolt action 22s state no 'stingers' - etc.