When to give up on a rifle that just won't shoot?

[richbug]

I purchased a new Mossberg MVP Predator in 308 a year or so ago. So much to love about the rifle... great trigger, medium-heavy fluted barrel, laminate stock, takes detachable M-14 or LR-308 mags... BUT it won't shoot any sort of a decent group. I have recrowned it, scrubbed the bore till I was blue in the face several times(JB paste, Iosso paste etc), 20+ different factory and handloads(125 to 180 grains), 3 different scope and rings sets. Headspace is good, bore was somewhat rough but not terrible, throat isn't particularly long.

Most loads are going into 3-4" at 100 yards, a $225 savage axis is putting nearly all of this ammo into 1" groups at 100 yards, a good rifle is shooting MOA or better out to 300+ with the handloads.

The only one that went into what I would call a group was some 1960s Remington 150s that I has laying around, they shot about 2", but only had 10 rounds of this so it may have been a fluke.

[aspangler]

Try glass bedding the action, free float the barrel, and you might try one of the Limbsaver "doughnuts" that go on the barrel to reduce harmonics. I put one on my Weatherby and it went from 1 1/2" groups to one ragged hole at 100. YMMV

[Outer Rondacker]

I read the same thing on the same gun some place else. I wish I could recall where. I will check my other forums and see if I can find it. But what he found and was not happy with at all was he had to slow the bullet down to almost sub sonic loads with very heavy projectiles. 180-200. I had one of these rifles on my to buy list after having some issues with my older savage 110 in 308. I put the buy on hold after reading the bad post on the other forum. Now that I see your thread I might not buy one at all. Does not help that I got my savage fixed. I hope you get it figured out and if I can find the thread I read I will copy and post it up here for you.

[Clay M]

What I have done with rifles that won't shoot is sell them to someone else, and buy something different.
If your rifle has a bad barrel , all the kings horses and all the kings men, aren't going to make it shoot well.
A .308 win should shoot ..period.

[Hamish]

Have you considered contacting Mossberg about their defective product?

[Hannibal]

I have had what I think is more than my fair share of inaccurate factory rifles. Just lucky I guess . . . . . . ?

Anyway, I tend to stick with it until I at least determine what the cause of the problem is. But I'm trying to learn all I can, so this approach isn't for everyone. Bottom line is, if you like the rifle, I would stick with it. If you are indifferent toward it or are sick of messing with it, I'd send it along it's way.

If you have already looked at the usual suspects (sights, optics, barrel channel, etc.) I'd bet it's a barrel issue. Although I have not seen it personally, I have heard it is fairly common for fluted barrels to be restricted in the fluted area.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[richbug]

Have you considered contacting Mossberg about their defective product?

I may have briefly considered it. But spending $30-40 postage to send back a rifle and have them tell me it is within specs doesn't appeal to me.

Presently I am eyeing up a .308 green mountain blank I have laying in the shop. Also thinking it might be nice to do as a fast twist .243", .260 or 6.5 creedmore

[Greg S]

I would clean the barrel and run 20 rounds of Federal 168 Match through the gun before sending it back. The ammo is a known standard and if it don't shoot it well, something is up. I'd include targets with the rifle when sent to the manufacturer. Had a friend who couldnxt get a Rem 700 PSS in 308 to shoot. After a month of load development, sent it back to Remington and they rebarreled it.

If that sound like too much, dump it at the next fun show.

[C. Latch]

Life is too short to chase tight groups with cheap rifles.

[Ola]

Most loads are going into 3-4" at 100 yards That is pretty much normal for a todays production rifles. If you buy one that shoots 1" at 100 yards, you are just lucky.

Don't forget that all these "big-brand" rifles are mass produced products that have only one purpose: to make as much money to the manufacturer as possible. There are some smaller firms that still want to make the best rifles possible, put those rifles obviously aren't cheap.

[country gent]

Fluted barrels can be a great weight reducer if done properly. If not done properly the fluting process induces alot of stress into the barrel, and this is almost full length of the tube. A barrel that walks as it heats up or with vibrations can be a real detriment to accuracy. On a rifle that dosnt shoot look at barrel forearm contact, it needs to be floated or even full length. As many rounds as is thru it action bedding ( recoil lug, trigger group mag welltang areas) may show tight spots or areas that are bearing that shouldnt or some that should be that arnt. Also locking lugs should show even burrnish and close to 100% wear on both sides. Look at the bolts locking lugs for even wear pressure. Lugs that arnt bearing even may be an issue. A good glass bedding job on the action may cure the issue. If possible dont just add bedding. Remove some material from back side and sides of recoil lug mortise .060-.090 this makes for a much stronger layer of bedding here. With a dremil tool cut light channels in stock for bedding to gain thickness and really rough up all other areas. If there are any spots showing bearing on mag well or trigger remove these as well. Sometimes just a little epoxy in the recoil lug area makes a big diffrence in accuracy. A good bedding job puts the action snugly in the stock with now bending or stress.

[richbug]

I may try to bed it. I thought that would certainly void any warranty that I may have had. I played with forend pressure and didn't get anywhere. This stock is set up with a pressure point in the channel about 8" forward of the lug. Maybe I will remove the bump and bed the action and lug. The one thing that strikes me on this receiver is how thin the right receiver rail is, they really had to remove some material to allow for the M14 mags.

Maybe I have been lucky, but I can't recall any rifle I have purchased in recent times that wouldn't shoot at 2 MOA or better, Savage, Weatherby, CZ, DMPS, PSA, FN, Marlin... Even A surplus Garand will usually do that.

[Clay M]

IME a lot of rifle made today will shoot 1" groups. Back in the 80's it seem to be more rare than today.
Just got back in today from shooing my Ruger #1 in .30/06
My best group today was with a Hornady 165 gr flat base bullet and a maximum load of IMR 4831
I got five shot just under and inch at 100 yds.
I had a lot of bad luck with Ruger #1's back in the 70's and 80's because of bad barrels.
This new rifle had a good barrel. It is a keeper.

[richbug]

I tore it apart looking for evidence of moving... The only place that the barreled action touches the stock is at the pillars. The front pillar was shiny = movement.

I can't see where the recoil lug has ever touched the stock. There is a huge square cavern from the recoil lug to the pressure point(which didn't touch the barrel unless I had a shim in there), going to take several ounces of epoxy to bed the lug and first couple inches of the barrel. The mag well adapter keeps me from bedding the whole action, but the recoil lug, barrel nut, and first inch of barrel should give lots of support.



While I have it apart I am going to pull the barrel and thread the muzzle. Also going to rechamber, set it back a thread using the reamer that most of my other 308s are cut with, as this chamber doesn't fit my neck sized brass well.

[country gent]

WHen your done you should have a shooter. You might try smokeing the reoil lug with a match and put in stock black marks will show where its riding. If the recoil lug isnt bearing then the action screws or magwell is worse than nothing there.

[Clay M]

I have also had to glass bed the rear tang on some of my bolt rifle to get them to shoot to my specifications.

[kungfustyle]

Good advice. Once its all said and done, what else are you going to do? move on to the next project? Stay with it or sell it, hard question. If you like to work at something sounds like your there. If you want something that shoots already sell it buy a Savage. I had a 45-70 that I had 3 three molds for and none of them gas checked. I bought the gun to shoot plane based bullets out of. No matter what I did the best I could get was 3" consistently. Once I exhausted all my options with out gas checks, I sold the rifle. I'm sure that it shoots great at 1700 fps or so but I didn't want to go there. Where are your boundaries and then you will know when to sell it or keep it.

[Hannibal]

Good advice. Once its all said and done, what else are you going to do? move on to the next project? Stay with it or sell it, hard question. If you like to work at something sounds like your there. If you want something that shoots already sell it buy a Savage. I had a 45-70 that I had 3 three molds for and none of them gas checked. I bought the gun to shoot plane based bullets out of. No matter what I did the best I could get was 3" consistently. Once I exhausted all my options with out gas checks, I sold the rifle. I'm sure that it shoots great at 1700 fps or so but I didn't want to go there. Where are your boundaries and then you will know when to sell it or keep it.

Just a thought, a Savage isn't always a shoe-in. Had one with a tapered bore ( .0015" larger at the muzzle than the chamber on a .308) and my experience with their customer service . . . . let's just say I won't be buying another. If you have had better experiences, more power to ya.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

IME a lot of rifle made today will shoot 1" groups. Back in the 80's it seem to be more rare than today.


Certainly in the 60s or 70s, but it owes more to the ammunition than the rifles. That is what the amateur benchresters, hopelessly impractical with regard to hunting as their activities may seem, have won for us. Nobody has made better barrels than expensive hand manufacture could produce around 1900.

Savage (and others) have more experience of making bolt-action rifles. But if you have acquired a rogue Mossberg, selling it and buying a possibly smaller chance of acquiring a rogue Savage is an act of desperation. The first thing is to try to identify just what is the matter, and see if it can be corrected.

There are various kinds of bad group. If they start small and then wander, it is likely to be something to do with bedding or heating, and it passes beyond doubt if they wander in one particular direction. Check that the barrel is floated by a considerable amount from the forend, and if it is, uneven fluting is likely to be the villain of the piece.

I positively dislike fluting, and floating by "the thickness of a business card", which is extremely likely to trap debris or water held by capillary action - ice, even. A barrel is more likely to provide even cooling if it is like the schoolboy definition of a circle: something which is round, all round. I did the calculations on a pretty typical fluted barrel once, and made the reduction about three ounces.

If the group is a currant-bun from the first shots, it is likely to be the fault you have identified, loose bedding of the action, and epoxy is likely to rectify it. This is a good time not to have the sort of plastic stock to which it won't stick.

There are one or two other possibilities. The bolt could be pressing on the rear of the barrel, which you can detect with lamp-black from a candle flame or black felt-tip. Or there could be a badly shaped chamber or throat, which is worth checking for with a chamber cast. For consistency of bore diameter, try slowly pushing two slugs through with a cleaning rod, one made at the muzzle and another made near the chamber. Oil the bore with a light oil, without removing them, and you should be able to feel any significant tightness or loosening.

[richbug]

Pulled the barrel this morning. Just for reference, the shank is 1.060"- 20, 1.75" of threads, flat breech face. I made a spanner to fit the barrel nut, but promptly broke it(sheared off the allen bolt I was using as a pin). 3 light taps of a 16 oz hammer and punch broke the nut free though...impact can be your friend.

I am going to stay with it. The idea of a large capacity detachable box 308 has always appealed to me. I have played with fitting FN-FAL mags to Mausers and never got one to feed as I would have liked, probably because I was hesitant to mill too much from the rails. This rifle solves that.

Bolt isn't touching breech face. Recoil lug isn't touch the stock until recoil puts strain on the screws, which I suspect is the largest part of the problem. Stock is laminated wood, so epoxy will adhere well.

If I do end up rebarreling it, the blank I have is a 1 in 11.25" twist. Any idea how heavy of A-max or match-king I should be able to stabilize? I may set it up in the lathe and let it run while i do other stuff today, just in case.

[warboar_21]

I bought a Howa 1500 chambered in 6.5x55 that I have given up on. Tried everything reloading wise. Nothing I tried worked. I have read that the chambers on the 6.5x55 were generously throated and mine seems to fit that description. Could seat 140gr bullets way out there and not hit the lands. That rifle taught me a valuable lesson. I wanted the CZ full stock but didn't want to spend the money. Instead I tried the cheap route and bought the howa. Well I ended up with the full stock and the *** howa that sits in the closet. Won't even let it in the safe in fear it might cause one of my other rifles to stop shooting.

[Hannibal]

I bought a Howa 1500 chambered in 6.5x55 that I have given up on. Tried everything reloading wise. Nothing I tried worked. I have read that the chambers on the 6.5x55 were generously throated and mine seems to fit that description. Could seat 140gr bullets way out there and not hit the lands. That rifle taught me a valuable lesson. I wanted the CZ full stock but didn't want to spend the money. Instead I tried the cheap route and bought the howa. Well I ended up with the full stock and the *** howa that sits in the closet. Won't even let it in the safe in fear it might cause one of my other rifles to stop shooting.

I would think even not being able to touch the lands you should be able to get it to shoot fairly well. Have you tried slugging the bore on both ends to look for a taper? How about pushing a slug thru the bore feeling for tight spots? These 2 techniques will find the majority of bore problems, in my experience to date. A Hornady OAL gauge and modified case will help decide just what OAL you need as well.

What size groups are you getting and at what yardage?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, having the bullet close to the lands is good in the quest for the ultim ..ate in accuracy, but its importance can be overrated. I don't believe there ever was a military .303 which wasn't throated for the original 215gr. roundnose, and yet a good one with other sources of inaccuracy eliminated can be well up to good sporting rifle standards of accuracy. As in the OP's case, bedding seems like the hot favourite with the Howa.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Hi Rich

Sorry to here you having trouble with the Mossberg MVP Predator in 308. Looks like and interesting gun.

Ever use tape to shim and lift , tighten things up? Used it just by accident one time just because buddy
waited until Thanksgiving to sight in a rifle. As time was running short, I used tape instead of sanding stock to lift the barrel about .050 and set the action bed forward just about .050 to and placed tape on the screw beds as to tighten things up. Worked out okay took groups from 5" to just over 1" @ 100 yds. This was a repaired stock. Look like someone used it as a bat against a tree. Easiest way I found to loosen or flow a barrel and tighten up space where needed and easy enough to change or undo.

Found this thread interesting and may give me a few more ideas to use in future.

Teddy

[HangFireW8]

It sounds like a bedding problem, but it could be a bad scope.

[richbug]

It sounds like a bedding problem, but it could be a bad scope.

This is the 3rd scope I have tried. Doubt it is the glass, the one on it now was shooting coyote targets at 1000 yards last summer pretty reliably.

Any way, I have it bedded. Unfortunately the weather has turned ugly. 40 MPH gust are not ideal to try for a decent group.

[Hannibal]

Please let us know how it goes. Inquiring minds want to know . . . .

[Ola]

I bought a Howa 1500 chambered in 6.5x55 that I have given up on. Tried everything reloading wise. Nothing I tried worked.

I have seen one brand new Howa that didn't shoot at all. It had one of these polymer "Overmolded" stocks. The "skeleton" of the stock was broken.

[Herb in Pa]

Pulled the barrel this morning. Just for reference, the shank is 1.060"- 20, 1.75" of threads, flat breech face. I made a spanner to fit the barrel nut, but promptly broke it(sheared off the allen bolt I was using as a pin). 3 light taps of a 16 oz hammer and punch broke the nut free though...impact can be your friend.

I am going to stay with it. The idea of a large capacity detachable box 308 has always appealed to me. I have played with fitting FN-FAL mags to Mausers and never got one to feed as I would have liked, probably because I was hesitant to mill too much from the rails. This rifle solves that.

Bolt isn't touching breech face. Recoil lug isn't touch the stock until recoil puts strain on the screws, which I suspect is the largest part of the problem. Stock is laminated wood, so epoxy will adhere well.

If I do end up rebarreling it, the blank I have is a 1 in 11.25" twist. Any idea how heavy of A-max or match-king I should be able to stabilize? I may set it up in the lathe and let it run while i do other stuff today, just in case.

Remington made a special run of stainless Model 700's with the 5R barrels and the 1 in 11.25 twist and the recommended bullet was the 175 SMK.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I was interested in this rifle, but out here the fancier version sell for three times what the base model sells for. I think I'd rather throw another $200 at it and buy a Ruger.

I hate it when I get a rifle that won't shoot as I am reluctant to sell off a lemon. When I sell a poorly performing rifle I always say what's wrong with it. I have sold a couple of rifles that were very ordinary performers to a pig shooter and a Sambar hunter, both were happy with three inch groups because they hunt at short range, snap shots and big animals (and they got the rifle cheap).

[richbug]

Finally braved the weather and shot it. Very scientific test, only the best equipment used. Still pretty windy, 15-20 mph quartering.

Ammo was stuff I had on my desk I think it was all the same load but only sure the bullets was the same(Sierra 165 hp).

Rest was 2 chunks of hemlock 2x6 with a rag on top for a cushion.

Bench was the railing on my deck.

105 yards to dirt pile with a Sheet of computer paper with black "X" stapled up as my printer was out of ink...



First shot was on paper top left corner... after shot I thought I probably should have swabbed the bore to remove oil...

next 3 shots touched about an inch to the right of the first.

5th shot was an inch below the group, but that could have been me as I wasn't really ready for it.


Too cold to continue as I only had a T-shirt on, and only 5 rounds laying on my desk.

lost a piece of brass... :(

[Hannibal]

Well . . . . I can not tell you the number of times I THOUGHT I was onto something, only to find I was only fooling myself on the next outing.

I'd load up at least a couple - dozen rounds and shoot a couple of 10 shot groups on 2 different days before trying to draw any conclusions.

I'm guessing you already knew this, just thinking out loud . . .

[country gent]

You might try the benchresters trick of a black aiming square. You dont center it but bracket a corner in the corner of the crosshairs. This is a very repeatable aiming point ( especially if your group is above or to the side of the corner) and it helps control rifles level keeping it the same every time. A 3" black square at 100 yds will allow for a very accurate repeatable aiming point thats easy to see and duplicate. You might try some federal gold medal match ammo as this is a known performing factory load. Also 41.5 grns IMR 4895 with a 168 grn sierra matchking seems to perfom well in most 308 rifles.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For a crosshair scope I would prefer a white square with a heavy black surround. The eye is very good at judging when a line is central in a square, and vertical central plus horizontal central add up to very central.

While agreeing that it will take more testing in better conditions to be sure, it sounds like the bedding has solved richbug's problem.

[Hannibal]

For a crosshair scope I would prefer a white square with a heavy black surround. The eye is very good at judging when a line is central in a square, and vertical central plus horizontal central add up to very central.

While agreeing that it will take more testing in better conditions to be sure, it sounds like the bedding has solved richbug's problem.

Yes, let's hope so. A bedding job cure is certainly a much cheaper and simpler solution than some of the other possibilities.

[warboar_21]

I would think even not being able to touch the lands you should be able to get it to shoot fairly well. Have you tried slugging the bore on both ends to look for a taper? How about pushing a slug thru the bore feeling for tight spots? These 2 techniques will find the majority of bore problems, in my experience to date. A Hornady OAL gauge and modified case will help decide just what OAL you need as well.

What size groups are you getting and at what yardage?

I never slugged the bore and maybe I should but honestly since I have the CZ that shoots so well I could care less about the Howa.

I was getting between 2.5"-3"+ 5 shot groups. That was with everything between 85gr up to 140gr using Norma Brass, three different brands of primers, Every type of powder I could think of, Nosler, Sierra, Hornady, Barnes, and Swift bullets. Both flat based and boat tail were tried. I was told that I should put it in a boyds wood stock but I wasn't about to spend another dime on it.

With the CZ it shot right out of the box. I could have saved myself a lot of headaches and frustration had I just spent the money on the CZ in the first place.

I have seen people post some amazing groups they have shot with their Howa's right out of the box. I wish it would've been the case for me but sadly I wasn't so lucky.

[Teddy (punchie)]

If shooting just to try loads, I shoot at 50 yds. After finding a load I fine tune at 100 yds. Shoot three then wait and shoot 3 more. I shoot a gun cold for final sight-in that are used during the season. Shoot once and let get stone cold or shoot again the next day or next time at range.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I bought a Howa 1500 chambered in 6.5x55 that I have given up on. Tried everything reloading wise. Nothing I tried worked. I have read that the chambers on the 6.5x55 were generously throated and mine seems to fit that description. Could seat 140gr bullets way out there and not hit the lands. That rifle taught me a valuable lesson. I wanted the CZ full stock but didn't want to spend the money. Instead I tried the cheap route and bought the howa. Well I ended up with the full stock and the *** howa that sits in the closet. Won't even let it in the safe in fear it might cause one of my other rifles to stop shooting.

The Swede is an inherently accurate cartridge, but I have heard a lot of tales of woe trying to get it to shoot in non original platforms.

[fast ronnie]

Yes, having the bullet close to the lands is good in the quest for the ultim ..ate in accuracy, but its importance can be overrated. I don't believe there ever was a military .303 which wasn't throated for the original 215gr. roundnose, and yet a good one with other sources of inaccuracy eliminated can be well up to good sporting rifle standards of accuracy. As in the OP's case, bedding seems like the hot favourite with the Howa.

.308 Norma Magnum is supposed to have a minimum jump of .156 to avoid over-pressure. They have been used in the past for 1000yd. and done quite well. That round is very close to the .30-.338 which used to win some of those matches.

[warboar_21]

The Swede is an inherently accurate cartridge, but I have heard a lot of tales of woe trying to get it to shoot in non original platforms.
My CZ shoots under an inch 5 shot groups as long as I'm doing my part. For a 20.5" barrel in a full length stock I have to say that's pretty awesome.

[Frank46]

Owner of a brand new remington 25-06 at the range and brought the rifle back to where he bought it. Nothing smaller than 4". By all rights his groups should have been much better. Owner of the shop grabs two boxes of premium ammo and heads to the range. First he shoots the fancy stuff leaving a few rounds, then he calls his buddy over and him shoot the same ammo and same results. Back at the store he asks the customer if he wants another 25-06 nope give me a 30-06. The more they shot that rifle the worse accuracy they got. Walked in the shop and told me the story. Rifle was on sale for $125. Frank

[Ballistics in Scotland]

.308 Norma Magnum is supposed to have a minimum jump of .156 to avoid over-pressure. They have been used in the past for 1000yd. and done quite well. That round is very close to the .30-.338 which used to win some of those matches.

I'm sure you are right, and it works. Weatherbys have, or used to have, an unusually long freebore to avoid overpressure, and that worked too. Both were quite different in effect from the type of long throat which is produced by erosion, and can be very harmful to accuracy, particularly with boat-tail or solid based bullets.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I don't give up until after I rebarrel...