Most worthless Pistol i own

[bouncer50]

The other day i was thinking what is the most worthless pistol i own. It has to be the bushmaster carbon 15 pistol i have. The only reason i bought it was a guy offer me a deal a 1927 a1 new in the box and the bushmaster new in the box for 600.00 for both. He got layoff from his job and needed the money to pay his rent. Anyway when i take the bushmaster to the range everybody want to shoot it. Its to big to be a pistol it very loud and not very accurate. I am trying to figure out why i keep it a worthless half *** rifle pistol.

[PerpetualStudent]

Well you could always put a stock on it and have another AR. Although the mandatory "if you ever put a rifle stock on it becomes a rifle and it must always be a rifle from that point on or else the wrath of the ATF may land on you" warning applies along with the barrel and OAL minimums. Of course in 5-7 months might be a real nice time to sell it to somebody who feels a need for an AR pistol. Might be worth more as a "pistol" than as a "rifle".

I really don't get the AR "pistols". I know why they're made but I've no use for one in my battery. I'd stock it or sell it.

[M-Tecs]

Not true http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/8/2/batfe-ruling-2011-4-pistol-to-a-rifle-and-back-to-a-pistol/

BATFE Ruling 2011-4 – Pistol to a Rifle and back to a Pistol (http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/08/02/batfe-ruling-2011-4-pistol-to-a-rifle-and-back-to-a-pistol/)

Today, at the NFATCA Firearm Importer, Exporter and Manufacturer Conference, the BATFE announced that Acting Director Melson issued Ruling 2011-4, regarding whether a pistol can be converted to a rifle and then back to a pistol, without having to register the firearm as a short-barreled rifle. While the Ruling has not yet been published,ATF Deputy Chief Steve Albro stated that the Ruling holds that a pistol may be converted to a Title I rifle (non-SBR) and back to a pistol without having to register the firearm as a Short-Barreled Rifle under the NFA. However, if the firearm starts life as a rifle, the Ruling further holds, that it cannot be converted to a pistol without registering it as a Short-Barreled Rifle under the NFA. As soon as the Ruling is posted, I will update this posting with a copy and any additional holdings.

Complete version here https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/2011-4-pistols-configured-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download

[flyingmonkey35]

So in that case we need to start getting the. AR lower guys to manufacturer pistol lowers. When they log the details / number to the atf.


Wa LA no SBR tax stamp needed. Its was made to be a pistol that has a attachable stock.

[dragon813gt]

So in that case we need to start getting the. AR lower guys to manufacturer pistol lowers. When they log the details / number to the atf.


A lower is neither a rifle or a pistol. They should not be logging it as either. Always install the buttstock last. It was a pistol up until that point. Pistols can be converted back and forth.

[flyingmonkey35]

Is it the length of barrel or stock that makes a pistol vs rifle?

[PerpetualStudent]

huh. That's fascinating. I'm happy to be corrected but color me still leery. Certainly I wouldn't fool with an AR pistol-rifle-pistol but...it does make the contender much more appealing to me. A pistol-carbine-pistol contender would be nice, and was a plan at one point, but my understanding is the ATF put the kabosh on that when it was introduced.

[M-Tecs]

but my understanding is the ATF put the kabosh on that when it was introduced.

Yes they did. Same for the 410 barrels. The ATF currently has no issues with the Contender/Encores pistol to rifles and back providing they are not configured as NFA items. It may be and issue if the started a rifles.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

[Doc Highwall]

I register my T/C Encore and Contender as pistols. I can now put a butt stock on them as long as the barrel is at least 16" long or it will be a short barrel rifle that requires a $200 tax stamp.

[Tackleberry41]

I never was to clear on the idea behind AR pistols. Ol one of the Russian Kinkovs in select fire, might be handy if you rode around in vehicles all the time and might need that kind of up close firepower. But a semi auto, meh, whats the point. I have an old T2 tazmanian devil from Australian Auto Arms. Got it as part of a trade a while back, loud really isnt the word for the thing with that 10 in barrel. Sights go to 300, doubt it would be very effective without a stock past 100. I remember HK making a pistol length barrel of the G3, no way I would want to shoot one, a 16in barrel is bad enough w a 308. And somewhere someone is furiously working on a pistol version of a 7.62x54r.

[FergusonTO35]

I would just hang on to that Carbon-15 and cash it in when the next scare comes.

[OS OK]

"When I get to the Oval Office I'm vetoing all Firearms laws and codes/regulations. I'll write 1 new one to replace them that cannot be modified or rescinded."

You must own at least one firearm, be competent with it and have at least 1 box-o-ammo for it. Size, shape, color, caliber or any other details is up to the owner.
End of Story.
Bang…Bang…OS OK

Simplicity of Ownership.

[Plate plinker]

I never was to clear on the idea behind AR pistols. Ol one of the Russian Kinkovs in select fire, might be handy if you rode around in vehicles all the time and might need that kind of up close firepower. But a semi auto, meh, whats the point. I have an old T2 tazmanian devil from Australian Auto Arms. Got it as part of a trade a while back, loud really isnt the word for the thing with that 10 in barrel. Sights go to 300, doubt it would be very effective without a stock past 100. I remember HK making a pistol length barrel of the G3, no way I would want to shoot one, a 16in barrel is bad enough w a 308. And somewhere someone is furiously working on a pistol version of a 7.62x54r.

And then the surplus ammo can not be imported....thanks to the jack wagon Tards [smilie=b:

Most hated men in the Firearms MARKET the jerk who made the ar pistol in 5.45x39. The jerk who made the 7.62x39 ak pistol.

[Lloyd Smale]

I was told by a lawyer that as long as the lower was never registered as a rifle any of them can be registered as a handgun.
The lower needs to be stamped pistol or multipurpose. You can not start with a standard ar lower for a pistol. A pistol lower with a short barrel and a rifle stock becomes a Short Barrel Rifle and an NFA item.

[flyingmonkey35]

I was told by a lawyer that as long as the lower was never registered as a rifle any of them can be registered as a handgun.
So if you mill your own 80% do you still need to reg for a SBR stamp or is it a pistol with a really long barrel.

A Uzi has a shoulder brace but is still classified a a pistol???

[NavyVet1959]

I bought my lowers and they were not listed as handgun or rifle, so I could build them as whatever I wanted. According to the ATF, as long as I start out as a handgun (regardless of the barrel length), it can be converted to a rifle and back again. So, of course I started each one as a handgun (i.e. without a butt-stock). I took it to the range, fired a few shots, and then decided whether I wanted the next configuration to be as a rifle or for it to stay as a handgun. Sometimes, they go back and forth, but the butt-stock is never put on a handgun with a short barrel, so I do not violate the stupid (and unconstitutional) SBR rule.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup that's the way I'm told. But you do need to keep in mind that it must be sold as a handgun in the future and even after your death you need to have let people know that or they could get in trouble with it as a non registered handgun in some states.
I bought my lowers and they were not listed as handgun or rifle, so I could build them as whatever I wanted. According to the ATF, as long as I start out as a handgun (regardless of the barrel length), it can be converted to a rifle and back again. So, of course I started each one as a handgun (i.e. without a butt-stock). I took it to the range, fired a few shots, and then decided whether I wanted the next configuration to be as a rifle or for it to stay as a handgun. Sometimes, they go back and forth, but the butt-stock is never put on a handgun with a short barrel, so I do not violate the stupid (and unconstitutional) SBR rule.

[M-Tecs]

When the 4473 is completed the lower is listed as rifle or handgun. This is not registration. How is the lower registered as a handgun?

[Doc Highwall]

I have bought a T/C Encore as a rifle on line, and when I went through the dealer on the 5744 I had it registered as a hand gun.

[Omega]

When the 4473 is completed the lower is listed as rifle or handgun. This is not registration. How is the lower registered as a handgun?
Not registered per se, but if a lower is first sold as a rifle (from MFG), then later converted to a handgun you will be in violation of ATF rules if converted back into a rifle. All stripped lowers are listed as "other" on the 4473, if not your FFL is doing it wrong. Stupid ATF rules, but the reason some like "pistols" is that they have different rules for carrying, specially in a vehicle. Here in TN, we can carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle, but not a long gun.

[M-Tecs]

I understand the 4473 process. The 4473 stays with the dealer until the business closes. While not required my comfort level is to use pistol marked lowers. This is established by the manufacture.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=529406

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BAT FE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html

[Omega]

I understand the 4473 process. The 4473 stays with the dealer until the business closes. For me my comfort level is to use pistol marked lowers. This is established by the manufacture.While this is good in theory, it is not in practice. Markings mean little when the configuration changes, and according to the ATF; if it is first sold as or made into a rifle then the rule stands.

So lets say I buy a stripped lower (pistol marked) and first make it into a rifle. I screw up and post a picture of my AR online then later post pictures of conversions to pistol then rifle. I could be prosecuted. Same thing if I purchase that same rifle that someone else converted back and forth, and there is evidence of such. Like I said, stupid ATF rules.

[bouncer50]

Not registered per se, but if a lower is first sold as a rifle (from MFG), then later converted to a handgun you will be in violation of ATF rules if converted back into a rifle. All stripped lowers are listed as "other" on the 4473, if not your FFL is doing it wrong. Stupid ATF rules, but the reason some like "pistols" is that they have different rules for carrying, specially in a vehicle. Here in TN, we can carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle, but not a long gun. Here in Indiana if a rifle or shotgun and has a pistol grip and can be fired with one hand then it a hand gun by a high court ruling in indiana.

[junkpile]

Here in Indiana if a rifle or shotgun and has a pistol grip and can be fired with one hand then it a hand gun by a high court ruling in indiana.

So they say everything is handgun then? Also find it curious that they contradict the federally defined description on rifle, handgun, and shotgun.

[Tackleberry41]

Indiana just has alot of weird gun laws.

[Dan Cash]

My most worthless was a worn out H&R .38 top break. Bore was ruined and one literally could not hit the side of the barn from 50 yards ( I tried). It did teach this young kid about rifling and accuracy. The gun got traded for a 1934 Beretta .32 which taught me that the .32 was not a very effective caliber.

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but a 4473 gives the government record of the sale to you and if that's not registration what is. In Michigan they don't call handgun registration registration. they call it a safety inspection but put lipstick on a hog and its still a hog. So bottom line is ANY new gun you buy has a paper trail to you and in many states handguns have two.
When the 4473 is completed the lower is listed as rifle or handgun. This is not registration. How is the lower registered as a handgun?

[M-Tecs]

Semantics on what registration is. Same as you I don't like the paper trail but that is far from what the left envisions as registration. Currently there is no list on the federal level that links your name to a firearm. With the serial number the government can work backwards to the last FFL sale.

[Garyshome]

I thought 223/556 pistols were used by the military in vehicles and house clearing kind of a tight quarters weapon with better stopping power then a pistol.

[NavyVet1959]

I thought 223/556 pistols were used by the military in vehicles and house clearing kind of a tight quarters weapon with better stopping power then a pistol.

They probably have stocks on them and we can't do that unless we go the SBR route (i.e. $$$ + registration).