Squib Loads?

[alamogunr]

I don't know where this belongs but with all the activity here, I thought I should start here. I was at the range yesterday to do some testing that was left over from last fall. I've posted before about some Wolf primers that I thought were made with hard cups due to light impressions. These loads were .38 Special with the Lee .58-125-RF over 3.0 gr of Bullseye. I was shooting these in a S&W Highway Patrolman that is in excellent condition. I was still having a few(about 1 in 6) that wouldn't fire. After about 5-6 cylinders, I had a light report indicating to me that either no powder or a weak primer. When I tried to swing the cylinder out. it was stuck tight. I just packed up and went home.

Later that night, I decided to try to find the problem. At first I thought that the boolit had stuck between the cylinder and the barrel. Putting it in the vise, I used a close fitting rod to try to drive the boolit back into the cylinder(case). Took several relatively light taps with a lead hammer but it finally cleared the barrel. When I ejected the empties and the unfired cartridges, the boolit fell from the cylinder. Inspecting the empties, I found that the one still had a boolit in it. To me, this meant that there were 2 squibs in adjacent chambers. Also the primer was pushed out of its pocket indicating higher pressure. The thing I don't understand is that all fired casings were sooted up considerably, which would seem to indicate that powder was present.

Was I just very lucky or is there an explanation for this?

[dudel]

A primer will push out of the pocket if you fire a cartridge with just a primer (no powder, no projectile). I didn't believe it till I tried it. May not be a pressure issue.

Glad you caught it.

[Finster101]

I have had zero problems with Wolf primers.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Has the mainspring of the revolver been 'tuned' to reduce trigger pull - thus reduced hammer impact?

[alamogunr]

Has the mainspring of the revolver been 'tuned' to reduce trigger pull - thus reduced hammer impact?

No! Every other round fired, both with Wolf and Win. Sm Primers have had deep impressions. All these did also. Those rounds that previously failed to fire had shallow impressions.

I'm thinking that I either had two light or no charges and, by strange coincidence, they ended up in adjacent chambers. I should have mentioned that these were the 2nd and 3rd rounds in the cylinder.

I appreciate the responses so far. I won't be able to respond to questions until tonight. SWMBO has decreed that I take her shopping.

[OS OK]

Those 'sooted' looking cases are not receiving enough 'start' pressure to swell the case and seal the cylinder completely.
Experimenting with slower pistol powders in the .45ACP and .45 Colt, I used standard non-magnum CCI or Rem. primers and they were not enough to ignite that slower powder and achieve the 'start' pressure needed. I noticed also 'unburnt' powder in both examples, hmm, I stopped there and had to give this situation some 'mulling'.
The different ignition characteristics between say 'Bullseye' and 'Herco' are more than 'subtle' and it is defined in 100,000ths. of a second. Too much for me to comprehend. Though I went back and studied the time/pressure/velocity/temperature characteristics in a rifle cartridge, I was never successful in finding the same write-up on pistols.
See this post...
'The Wizardry of Propulsion' (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?297867-The-Wizardry-of-Propulsion)
I just gave up on the idea of 'soft-starting' my cast boolits in a pistol and went back to the suggested powders within the 'loading manuals' I have.

The last comment I'll leave you with is the fact that one of the other loaders commented on 'Wolf' primers giving her a fit trying to get them to load in an automatic hand held primer tube loader. She thought that there was an issue with the size being consistent…if that is so, could be other inconsistencies also, I dunnoh…don't use Wolf.

Good luck…keep us posted…I'll be watching this thread with interest…OS OK

[Don Fischer]

Soot on the case indicate's to me low pressure. Not enough pressure to expand the case to fill the chamber.

[dondiego]

That seems like a light load for that light boolit. Do you have any cartridges left that you could pull and verify the actual powder weight?

[ShooterAZ]

I don't use Wolf primers either. I would recommend upping the charge by .5 to 1 grain. Me thinks too light of a load, or possibly not a full drop of powder.

[M-Tecs]

Also the primer was pushed out of its pocket indicating higher pressure.

Post #2 has it correct. The pressure from the primer backs it out and the LOW pressure in the case doesn't reseat it. Sooted case are also low pressure indicators.

[alamogunr]

How did past shooters get by with the 2.7 gr of Bullseye load? The only thing I can think of is they used 148 or 158 gr WC's. Apparently 125 gr is not enough to get full pressure.

[tazman]

I had a squib yesterday at the range. It must have had a tiny bit of powder in it because the bullet(125 grain JHP) went halfway down the barrel.
Old ammunition from 25 years ago. It had been sealed in an army ammo can the whole time. 38 special loads but I was shooting them in a 357 so should be quite safe. The label said it was standard power loads of 231.
I carry a brass rod and a soft face hammer with me in the shooting bag so I knocked it out right then. No problems.
Apparently I wasn't as consistent back then as I thought since I had a couple of loads that felt different, a bit more flash and recoil and one other light charge that hit the target.

[Thumbcocker]

Sounds like no powder in the case and the primers backed out from low pressure.

[JSnover]

I tried that same charge in Taurus 66 (6" .357) years ago under 125gr JHP, with similar results. The easiest way to pop them out was an empty case with a magnum primer, but in my case the boolits were stuck midway down the barrel, so opening the cylinder wasn't a problem.

[country gent]

Alamogunr, Keep in mind that 148 grn wc was seted completely in the case using up alot of case capacity, even with the hollow base there was way more bullet in the case than with a 125 0r even 158 grn. Thus making that 2.7 grn charge of bullseye much more potent ppressure wise.

[alamogunr]

Sounds like no powder in the case and the primers backed out from low pressure.

I would agree except for the soot on the cases, both of them. But apparently the pressure was so low that the first squib only went into the forcing cone and the second didn't have enough oomph to push it out of the chamber, or it was the second boolit that bridged the gap, thus tying up the cylinder. I should have been paying more attention when tapping the boolit('s) back into the casing. I never suspected that there were two boolits involved.

Tazman: I keep a brass rod and hammer in a small plastic tub too. Just didn't have it with me yesterday. Wouldn't have helped anyway since I needed the vise to hold the revolver while I tapped away.

I'm going to be much more careful from now on and check powder level(which I thought I had done) every loading block. I think I will also restrict that 125 gr boolit to 9mm which is why I bought the mold in the 1st place. Worked well there.

I wish there was some way to prove to everyone that I still suspect Wolf primers(sm pistol only) of having occasional hard cups. My next test is going to be to load some 9mm with a medium or above charge of some powder that I have on hand from a manual and shoot them in a Sig and see if I have the same problem.

[Petrol & Powder]

I had to re-read the first post but I think I understand the situation. If the OP had 1 casing with the primer backed out and all of the other casings were fired OR still had seated & crimped bullets with live primers; then the last casing with the backed out and fired primer was the squib load. That last casing had very LOW pressure which is why the primer was backed out on that casing. The one loose bullet was from that casing.
It was a little unclear from the OP that the loose bullet was from the same chamber as the casing with the proud primer (and maybe the OP didn't know which chamber the bullet fell out of when he opened the cylinder) but it sounds to me like the offending cartridge is from the same chamber that had the loose bullet.

A squib load can lodge the bullet between the cylinder and the forcing cone, effectively locking the cylinder. A squib load can also cause a primer to back out of the primer pocket. If you've ever shot a primed case without a bullet and powder you will find the primer backs out and frequently ties up the action. The way to prevent that is to enlarge the flash hole but that action renders the casing unsuitable for normal use. A casing with an enlarged flash hole can only be used as a blank, with rubber bullets or with wax/glue bullets and no powder.

[alamogunr]

P&P: When I was able to open the cylinder, the chamber that held the round that tied up the cylinder contained a casing with two (2) boolits. The top boolit had a flattened tip from my driver rod. The bottom boolit was driven all the way to the bottom of the casing and the casing had the primer backed out. As stated previously, both casings were sooted. I hope this clarifies the situation some. I confuse myself sometimes.

As a matter of interest, I once purchased some 1X fired .45 Colt brass. Upon inspection, I found 3 pcs with enlarged flash holes. These were stamped for "Blanks Only" or something similar.

[Petrol & Powder]

You may have actually fired two squib loads consecutively and drove BOTH bullets back down the bore with the squib rod. The second bullet may not have made it far enough down the barrel to impact the first lodged bullet.

[bedbugbilly]

All I can say is what I've experienced. You mention "light strikes" on primers. You don't state if the pistol was new or used when you got it. I have a Smith Combat Masterpiece. I usually shoot in single action when plinking. It fires fine in SA with Winchester or CCI SPP. But, the last time when I was shooting it, I had a number of light strikes in DA. If your pistol has a mainspring stress/tension screw - should be on the lower end of the front of the grip frame . . . a previous owner might have shortened it to "tune" the pistol. A Smith in SA will strike a primer harder than when fired in DA. Mine looked fine but when I compared it to my Smith M & P K frame, I discovered that it had been shortened quite a bit and I need to replace it.

I have only had one squib (knock on wood) and I know it was my fault. I load on a Lee 4 hole turret and I got interrupted by my wife just before I dropped a charge through the Lee powder through die with my Lee Perfect Powder Measure. I SHOULD have pulled the casing out of the press and started over - lesson learned! I was shooting that batch in my S & W Model 36 Snub. I had lead 148 gr. WC and a CCI primer. As soon as I pulled the trigger,, I heard pffft. The primer had enough pressure to push that WC in to the barrel about 1/4" in front of the forcing cone. The primer stayed seated and looked normal.

As far as a 125ish grain boolit over 3.0 gr of BE - I have used that load many times with no problems at all. Yes, you will get some sooty casings but that is normal anyway unless you are loading to near max or hot which will expand the casing into the chamber walls. I'd be more apt to be looking at a missed powder drop and an empty casing or else a very minimal grain drop - enough to make some soot but no power to sent the boolit through the tube. If the casing was empty or had just a minimal grain charge, you roll crimp may have put enough resistance on the boolit to keep it from entering past the forcing cone enough for the cylinder to turn?

I have never used Wolf primers and perhaps my thinking is flawed . . . but it a primer goes off and creates enough to ignite the powder charge . . . and the powder charge is adequate . . . . 3.0 gr. of BE should be very ample in getting that boolit down the barrel and out. Yes, I'm sure that there might be a minimal difference in what different small pistol primers of different brands create pressure wise . . . but again . . if they go off and ignite the 3.0 gr. of BE, that should put that boolit downrange.

Check your pistol and the mainspring tension screw and see if it has either backed out some or has been shortened as that can cause light primer strikes.

Next . . . re-examine your method of powder drops and see if by chance there could be a possibility of a no-drop or a light drop of the BE . . . is your powder measure powder chamber/tube bridging at all? I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure and it has worked very well for me and gives accurate drops . . . but . . . . I have had light drops and have caught them during random checks when the level of the BE in the measure tube gets low . . . so I just keep the tube filled to near the top and that took care of the problem.

Let us know what you figure out and I hope you can clear up the mystery! Best of luck!