Hardened pin or not?

[Wayne Smith]

Let me set the scene. A while ago I purchased an Echo press off eBay that had been used as a swaging press. As such it had the swage ram in it. I intend to use this press for teaching and to pass on to a new reloader, thus I needed a universal ram. Ken (Pressman) was interested in the swage assembly so we arranged a trade. In taking it apart I discovered that whoever used it for swaging probably used a persuader. The connecting pin between the boss and the transfer bar was bent into a flat bottomed U. I couldn't get the other end loose but Ken told me it was the same. Ken sent me a universal ram and the transfer bar and one pin. I need to replace the other pin which was so bent I tossed it.

For normal reloading processes do I need to replace it with a hardned pin or can I make one from the steel I can get at my local hardware store? Ken is not avaliable (wife's surgery) so I'm asking the group.

[Pressman]

161318 ​These are the pins Wayne is referring to. The short one on the left connects the link to the ram, it is the one he could not get out. The longer pin holds the link in the pivot block. These are from an ECHO Model C press that saw extensive swaging use. I am thinking that a 5/16" grade 8 bolt cut to length should be what Wayne needs for normal reloading.

The press seems to be OK considering all the stress that has been applied to it. I did learn something from all this. Most rams including the replacements have a much smaller pin holding the link to the ram. I was able to find an old Redding ram that has the correct size pin. Looking at these pins a smaller pin would not have withstood the forces applied during swaging.

I have two ECHO Model A presses and an old Pacific that I acquired many years ago that have seen extensive swaging use, I am going to have to tear them down and examine the parts for a better understanding of how well they stood up. The Model A's are a bit larger than the later Model C.

Ken

[6bg6ga]

I would take a file to them. The hardened pin won't show hardly anything and the unhardened pin will. My guess is they are not hardened.

[bdicki]

I don't believe a hardened pin would deform that much without breaking. I've used a lot of tapered dowel pins to aid in relocating paper machine parts and they often look like that when pulled. They can be cut with a hacksaw so not hard at all. Straight pins are hard and will snap before bending.
https://www.grainger.com/category/dowel-pins/pins/fasteners/ecatalog/N-8m0#nav=%2Fcategory%2Fdowel-pins%2Fpins%2Ffasteners%2Fecatalog%2FN-8m0Z1z0ne6f

[David2011]

Wayne,

I agree that it is not hardened or it would have broken. When I want a good sturdy piece of metal to make pins I buy a grade 8 bolt and use the smooth shank as the raw material. If you don't have a lathe you can cut it with a hacksaw (not had at all with a fresh blade and a little oil.) It can be turned down spinning it in a drill press or hand drill secured in a vise. Just check frequently with your calipers and you can make a good replacement. Secure it with Loctite if you want.

---Or send me the dimensions and I'll make one for you for the cost of a bolt and shipping, which shouldn't be much. If you want to do that PM me so I don't miss it.

David

[Steve Steven]

If you want HARDENED pins, don't overlook machinists dowel pins, they are very hard (and will break long before bending) and available in places such as Motion Industries, Fastenal, Graingers and the like. Dowel pins are on size, bolts are usually a bit undersize on the shanks. Also, drill blanks and reamer blanks are hardened (drill blanks are on size, reamers are less than 1/2 thousandths undersize) and both come in many sizes. If your holes are distorted, you can buy a reamer the next size up (think alphabet sizes also) and a blank to suit. Look in the MSC on-line catalog (www.mscdiredt.com (http://www.mscdiredt.com) ), note MSC usually has a large minimum buy.

Steve

[Wayne Smith]

Nope, 5/16 is way too lose. I replaced the one pin you sent me, Ken. It is a press fit in the transfer bar and very loose in the ram. I tried a piece of a 5/16 bolt as suggested but had to use end caps to hold it in place. This limited the ram travel so it will not fully extend. When I say press fit I mean I filed off the black on the pin and still had to put it in with my vice.

I don't have pin guages. I think I'll wait until Monday nite and call Dave at CH4D and see if he will sell me one pin! I also need some primer seat pieces for this press and for my Bair.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Wayne: the pins shown above were way too gooned to come out without gooning the holes too. You will probably be best off reaming the holes to the next size up.

I this case I would use a drill blank for the pin. You'd cut it with a cutoff wheel on a grinder as they are 62 Rc+ it sounds like the pins were press fit into one side or the other of the two parts being joined. In that case you need two reamers, One for the press fit and one for the bearing fit.

I'd like to tell you it is easier than that, but in order to do it right that's what you're going to have to do.

I'd recommend finding a local machine shop that has the reamers or could bore the holes oversize, rather than trying to do this yourself. The reamers alone will cost $50 an without a solid platform like a mill to do the work on the chances of getting wallowed holes to all line up is going to be slim to none. Thus you would just ruin the parts.

Whatever bent those pins was really a monster, as trying to bend a 5/16 pin that tight, no matter what it is made from, would take an enormous amount of force to accomplish.

The mating pieces had to have been affected greatly.

Randy

[Wayne Smith]

Actually the ram Ken sent me is not the one used in the press for swaging. This is the one that the pin fit very tightly in the transfer bar and did not fit tightly in the ram. I have to assume it was designed that way. In that case I would assume (I know!) that the hole in the boss should also be loose. What this means is that the pin is tight and unmoving in the transfer bar and the larger holes in the boss and in the ram allow rotation.

[Pressman]

Wayne that sounds correct. If the pins are tight to snug in the link they won't fall out. Loose fit to the ram is not uncommon. Mixing and matching rams, links and pins is really iffy at best. Mostly they work, mostly. As long as the pin to ram fit is not sloppy you should have no issues.

Ken

[EDG]

Those pins are better off being the weak link in the press.
It is better to shear or break the simpleton pin than to break a major part of the press.

Note that to shear that pin it has to break in 2 places at the same time.
Take a look at a RCBS A2 link pin. It has break 4 places at the same time.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

EDG is right. Those need to be the weak link.

[Wayne Smith]

Those pins are better off being the weak link in the press.
It is better to shear or break the simpleton pin than to break a major part of the press.

Note that to shear that pin it has to break in 2 places at the same time.
Take a look at a RCBS A2 link pin. It has break 4 places at the same time.

I don't know. I'm having a heck of a time finding the right size. I think a piece of P size drill rod will work. I have some saved on Amazon to order, the O size will be too small.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Those pins are better off being the weak link in the press.
It is better to shear or break the simpleton pin than to break a major part of the press.

Note that to shear that pin it has to break in 2 places at the same time.
Take a look at a RCBS A2 link pin. It has break 4 places at the same time.

This is true to a certain point. When a shear pin breaks, it has to break clean or the other parts get gooned. If it only bends it is not doing it's job.

Also Shear Pins are designed to break under a "Load Spike" Like what happens when an outboard motor prop hits a rock or log in the water.

Wayne's pin just bent. That is not only the weak link it is also the link that destroys to mating parts.

He's looking for oversized pins right now? Which means the holes were enlarged by the bent pin.

I don't think there are very many Humans that could break a 5/16 Shear Pin using only arm pressure. The shear pin in a boat prop is 5/32-3/16" and look at what they take for punishment. They transmit massive amounts of torque, but that loading is gradually applied not dumped onto the shaft instantaneously.

If the mating parts are going to let go before the pin lets go then, for all intents and purposes, they need to be stronger, because in reality none of this should fail by using only Armstrong Pressure.

Can we see a picture of this press and the parts that broke? I hate talking about things I've never seen.

Hell, I might even be wrong and not know it...

Randy

[Wayne Smith]

Thanks, all. Got it put together, at least for the moment. I had a 5/16 pin that was actually 5/16. The bolt was all of .308". This is a slip fit and holds together.

Another question, I notice that when I have the pin in the lowest hole the ram goes into the beginning of the hole where the die screws in, a shell holder actually enters. At least I know it's not warped! When the pin is in the higher hole the ram comes a little more than halfway to the top hole. Useable but the dies are screwed all the way in. Is this the way it's supposed to work??

[EDG]

As the linkage starts to straighten out and break over center the mechanical advantage of the press can easily produce 100 times your arm's strength.
With a soft pin and hardened connecting parts the pin should offset or shear without breaking the frame.
I have split steel .44 Magnum sizer dies using them to swage case heads. All that power had to come from the mechanical advantage of the press.



This is true to a certain point. When a shear pin breaks, it has to break clean or the other parts get gooned. If it only bends it is not doing it's job.

Also Shear Pins are designed to break under a "Load Spike" Like what happens when an outboard motor prop hits a rock or log in the water.

Wayne's pin just bent. That is not only the weak link it is also the link that destroys to mating parts.

He's looking for oversized pins right now? Which means the holes were enlarged by the bent pin.

I don't think there are very many Humans that could break a 5/16 Shear Pin using only arm pressure. The shear pin in a boat prop is 5/32-3/16" and look at what they take for punishment. They transmit massive amounts of torque, but that loading is gradually applied not dumped onto the shaft instantaneously.

If the mating parts are going to let go before the pin lets go then, for all intents and purposes, they need to be stronger, because in reality none of this should fail by using only Armstrong Pressure.

Can we see a picture of this press and the parts that broke? I hate talking about things I've never seen.

Hell, I might even be wrong and not know it...

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I know the press makes it's highest pressure at break over but I never thought it could be 100 times. Seems a little high? But without doing some kind of test who knows for sure.

I just finished my new Hand Press (Pics in next few days.) and while designing it I figured out that the mechanical advantage was generated by the drive end on the link traveling thru an arc. At it's beginning the ram moves the most per unit of movement of the handle but takes the most effort to move. Towards the end of that travel the pivot point is moving thru the top of the arc where the movement is essentially geared way down and the movement of the Ram is less than the movement of the handles.

This is where the most power is needed as sizing a case is done mostly as the case is pushed fully into the die. The mechanical advantage is calculated as a ratio between the length of the handle and the distance from the pivot point to the point where the link attaches to the handle.

However that Mechanical advantage is variable thruout the stroke since it is changing rotary motion to linier motion, Like a crankshaft in an engine. It increases from beginning to end.

My press links can not go over center due to the placement of the handles They are close but don't quite make it. A necessary compromise to have the design work at all. I used the same ratio as the Lee Hand Press but since I have two handles working opposing each other the force required is slightly less than the Lee Press.

Common loading presses have a much higher MA than my press or the Lee press and part of this is the length of the handle and the mounting of the press on a solid surface which allows you to get more force onto the handle.

Randy

[dave 45-90]

161318​These are the pins Wayne is referring to. The short one on the left connects the link to the ram, it is the one he could not get out. The longer pin holds the link in the pivot block. These are from an ECHO Model C press that saw extensive swaging use. I am thinking that a 5/16" grade 8 bolt cut to length should be what Wayne needs for normal reloading.

The press seems to be OK considering all the stress that has been applied to it. I did learn something from all this. Most rams including the replacements have a much smaller pin holding the link to the ram. I was able to find an old Redding ram that has the correct size pin. Looking at these pins a smaller pin would not have withstood the forces applied during swaging.

I have two ECHO Model A presses and an old Pacific that I acquired many years ago that have seen extensive swaging use, I am going to have to tear them down and examine the parts for a better understanding of how well they stood up. The Model A's are a bit larger than the later Model C.

Ken
The way they are bunged up, the hole bore is messed up to. That means the original pin hole centers have been lost. So one would have to re-center the bore geometry and line bore it. The holes would be reamed, and the center oversized a 1/2 thousand to allow movement while the outside two would be a tight fit. I would use a standard dowel pin and use a dowel pin reamer. The pin bending is a piss poor design to begin with. Without a photo, we are guessing. When the hole centers have been lost, the ram travel limits will never be right

[GONRA]

GONRA would follow W.R.Buchanan's great advice....

[jimkim]

I think I'd make a couple of pins from grade 5 bolts. They work pretty good for shear pins on the farm. They're plenty strong, but not so strong that we damage our machinery/tools.