Need help with .455 Webley HB bullet pouring!

[Tom Herman]

Hi Folks,

I've been bitten by the .455 Webley bug, and begun pouring 265 grain RN Hollow Base bullets with the RCBS 45-265-RN-HB mould.
The problem is, the bullets just don't fill out worth a hoot! The furnace is an RCBS Pro Melt. I first tried a soft lead (range scrap) alloy, with dismal results and a near 100% failure rate.
What I've settled on is 10 pounds relatively pure lead, 10 pounds wheel weights, and a 1 pound bar of 63/37 solder.
The roughly 2% Tin sure helps! (BTW: Is there an upper limit to the effectiveness of Tin?) The alloy fills out better, but I'm still having issues: The lube bands don't form well, and there are also holes in the bullet at the apex of the hollow base.
Cutting a number of bullets with a coax cable cutter shows that bullets with poorly formed hollow apexes can have deep cavities inside them, so I reject any that have signs of base trauma.
All told, I've got about a 50% pass rate now. Not great, but getting there.
The bullets do like to be poured hot! And I seem to get a little improvement by holding the mould at a slight angle off level while pouring. Still, It seems like I'm missing something.
O great Wise Ones! Any words of advice? I'm grateful for any pointers.

-Tom :(

[grumpy one]

Taking the easy point first Tom, the upper limit to the effectiveness of tin is when the percentage of tin equals the percentage of antimony. At that point the tin and antimony should more or less all combine to form the compound SbSn, with substantially no antimony crystals. Alloys with equal tin and antimony are called pseudo-binary: because the tin and antimony combine into a compound, the alloy effectively consists of only two components (lead, and SbSn). The pseudo-binary series of alloys has its own eutectic, at 10% tin, 10% antimony. If you add more tin than antimony, there are supposed to be tin crystals in the solidified alloy, and they are unhelpful if there are enough of them to stick together - they form soft spots, and may also be a sort of gathering point for dirt and crud, probably because they are the last parts to solidify.

With regard to what is going wrong for you, I haven't attempted a bullet anything like the one you are working on, but I've had similar symptoms when first casting Loverin bullets in 30 caliber. The solutions turned out to be first, have the mould and alloy hot enough (much hotter than for simple two-groove bullets), and second, clean the mould. I find all moulds difficult to clean but especially my Loverin. Until it's clean, you'll get about what you've been reporting.

Have fun with that old Webley. Is it an Eley, or just a regular WW I model?

[454PB]

I haven't used a mould that large, but I do cast a HB wadcutter in .358" diameter. You need to keep the "pin" for the hollowbase as hot as the mould. That requires some type of extra heat source, I use a propane torch set on low. Others have good luck with a small hotplate.

[leftiye]

See my post on the 358311 thread above about mold heater.

[runfiverun]

you are using more tin then antimony.
thid is not good, and ya gotta keep the pin hot

[Tom Herman]

Hi Grumpy, and all of the others that have replied so far,

Many Thanks for your insights and advice! I checked the thread on hollow point bullets, and the issues with the pin on the other end of the bullet are just as valid as for the base plug.
I'll dig out my gas torch, and keep it close by to ever so carefully bring the plug up to temperature. It all makes sense: The base plug has the smallest thermal mass of the whole system, so it will shed heat the quickest. The mould halves will retain heat quite well, not so the plug.
Thanks for the quick education on Sn-Sb alloys!
I will also clean the mould better. Right now, I spray off the WD-40 with carburator cleaner, then I wait for the mold to dry out, and cast bullets. I'll brush the mould, and also heat it up better before its first use, and keep the base plug hot.
As far as the guns go, I ran into a Mark VI Webley (1916) at a gun show two years ago: It's beat, has been butchered for .45 ACP, and the cylinder has enough play so that I've nicknamed it the Mark VI Wobbley! But, it's all I could afford at the time, so I bought it.
I need to figure out how to tighten up the cylinder.
In addition, I've added a Colt New Service in .455 Eley (Webley)(ca. 1915 British contract gun): It's also been cut down for .45 ACP, but as with the Mark VI, whoever did it left just enough of a lip on the star plate so I can still fire either round.
I only use .455 in either gun, as the .45 ACP is essentially a proof load! I want these to last. I only load my rounds with 4.3 grains of Unique, which is max for the .455 Webley, but far short of a .45 ACP.
My lastest acquisition was a beautiful Smith & Wesson Canadian contract gun in .455 Webley (ca. 1915). Unlike the others, this one is in about 95% condition, and unmolested!
I saw it at the last gun show, and absolutely gapsed when I saw the fire sale pricetag! I paid the man his money, and ran for the door before he could change his mind....
I also have a nice Canadian (ca. 1916) Colt New Service in .455 Eley, but it was professionally (factory job?) rebored and converted to .45 Long Colt. Not sure if I can still (or want!) to run .455 Webley out of that one.
Next chance I get, I'll fire up the pot and cast some more .455 Webley, try the ideas that were so graciously shared, and report back. Saturday looks good weather wise for outdoor casting.

Cheers! -Tom:-D




Taking the easy point first Tom, the upper limit to the effectiveness of tin is when the percentage of tin equals the percentage of antimony. At that point the tin and antimony should more or less all combine to form the compound SbSn, with substantially no antimony crystals. Alloys with equal tin and antimony are called pseudo-binary: because the tin and antimony combine into a compound, the alloy effectively consists of only two components (lead, and SbSn). The pseudo-binary series of alloys has its own eutectic, at 10% tin, 10% antimony. If you add more tin than antimony, there are supposed to be tin crystals in the solidified alloy, and they are unhelpful if there are enough of them to stick together - they form soft spots, and may also be a sort of gathering point for dirt and crud, probably because they are the last parts to solidify.

With regard to what is going wrong for you, I haven't attempted a bullet anything like the one you are working on, but I've had similar symptoms when first casting Loverin bullets in 30 caliber. The solutions turned out to be first, have the mould and alloy hot enough (much hotter than for simple two-groove bullets), and second, clean the mould. I find all moulds difficult to clean but especially my Loverin. Until it's clean, you'll get about what you've been reporting.

Have fun with that old Webley. Is it an Eley, or just a regular WW I model?

[35remington]

For hollowbase bullets you might, if you're not already, need pouring with a dipper.

The head pressure better fills out the hollowbase mould for me. You might also try with the sprue chamfer against a bottom pour pot for pressure fill but check for weight variations to confirm this will work for you. Hopefully you have clearance for a bottom pour, otherwise it's the dipper.

Also concur with keeping the plug hot.

[Harry O]

I cast a number of hollow-base bullets. First, I would ditch the WW. I use 40:1 to 50:1 lead/tin mixtures. NO ANTIMONY.

I run the melter as hot as it will go. You need to sprinkle the surface with boric acid (you can get a bottle at the pharmacy) to keep the tin from oxidizing.

Smoke the inside of the mould. Then heat the pin. Depending on whether or not it is self-contained or a separate pin, you do this differently. With a self-contained one (like the Lee 405gr 45-70 bullet or the Rapine 185gr 41LC bullet), I rest the bottom of the mould on the top of the melter while I wait for the sprue to harden. I also keep a candle near the melter. After opening and dumping the bullet, I turn the mould upside down and heat/smoke it with the candle for a few seconds before closing it back up and filling it.

If I have a separate pin (Lyman 386178 bullet), I cannot rest the mould on the top of the melter. I do hold the center pin on the candle longer, though.

Most problems with hollow base moulds can be cured with heat. Lots of heat. More tin than 2% is not very effective. ANY ANTIMONY makes if very hard no matter what you do.

[35remington]

Harry, I do hope you're not suggesting smoking the base plug or any part of the cavity with the smoke from a candle, are you?

Wax coating the inside of the cavity or base plug from a burning candle is not good idea. Wrinkled bullets result. Soot should only be from a butane lighter or other grease or wax free source.

[Harry O]

Harry, I do hope you're not suggesting smoking the base plug or any part of the cavity with the smoke from a candle, are you?

Wax coating the inside of the cavity or base plug from a burning candle is not good idea. Wrinkled bullets result. Soot should only be from a butane lighter or other grease or wax free source.

Its worked for me for at least 10 years.

[35remington]

Strange. Myself and those I've talked to have poor bullets resulting from the practice. I can't recommend it, but whatever works for you.

[leftiye]

I'd use a propane torch to heat the plug (while in the mold - heat bottom of mold). Agree about the candle depositing oils condensed from the flame (matches are really bad about this too). No smoking, clean mold - if hot enough - it should work.

[andrew375]

In my experience it is the base plug that is the culprit, it isn't hot enough. Before I cast with any hollow base mould I always give it a few minutes on the gas stove to get the plug up to temp.

Also, as part of the Webley design the cylinder only locks up tight with the trigger all the way back.

[runfiverun]

i think i would just back down the acp load.
if you are shooting a webley use webley loads in the acp brass.

[Harry O]

I don't know about you guys, but casting hollow-base moulds is slow -- VERY slow. They are single bullet moulds and they must be cast hot, which means time for the sprue to cool down.

I did try propane for a while. It worked great, but I could not afford to keep a propane torch going for 4-hours at a stretch (the usual length of my casting sessions). The purpose of the candle I mentioned is not primarily to smoke the mould. I have done that with a liquid preparation before I start casting. The purpose is to heat the center plug. That needs to be kept hot or there will be laps, holes, or cavities on or above the center plug. There is a little bit of smoking going on, too, but very little.

I had a problem with hollow-base moulds for the first couple of years until I worked out what I posted above. Now I have 10 or 11 of them and don't have any problems casting with them (other than speed). I have been asked to cast Lyman 386178 or Rapine 386185 bullets several times, but I cannot do it fast enough to make it worth my while. I generally cast one bullet per minute or 1-1/4 if I am really pushing. If you want to speed cast, you will have bad hollow-base bullets every time.

[35remington]

Head pressure from a ladle or pot with the sprue chamfer against the spout works to eliminate the void against the tip of the plug. I can't guarantee the potful of lead way of doing it will not have other problems, especially in weight variations, but try it first and see if holding the sprue chamfer against the spout will work. Oftentimes you can get away with it.

As I mentioned before, if supplemental heat is needed for the plug I go with a "dry" heat source. I have found that head pressure will usually, but not always, solve the problem as long as the plug and mould are on the hot side to begin with.

[Tom Herman]

i think i would just back down the acp load.
if you are shooting a webley use webley loads in the acp brass.

Hi, I appreciate your idea, and it would work for two of my .455's, but I also have the Smith in the original caliber, so that's not possible there.
Besides, that would take the fun out of it. If I'm going to use one of the classic revolvers, I'd like to use the original cartridge it was designed for.
It's the same reason why I bought a Smith 624 in .44 SPL instead of a Ruger .44 Mag. I'd prefer to use the .44 SPL in a gun meant for it.

-Tom

[Tom Herman]

I don't know about you guys, but casting hollow-base moulds is slow -- VERY slow. They are single bullet moulds and they must be cast hot, which means time for the sprue to cool down.

I did try propane for a while. It worked great, but I could not afford to keep a propane torch going for 4-hours at a stretch (the usual length of my casting sessions). The purpose of the candle I mentioned is not primarily to smoke the mould. I have done that with a liquid preparation before I start casting. The purpose is to heat the center plug. That needs to be kept hot or there will be laps, holes, or cavities on or above the center plug. There is a little bit of smoking going on, too, but very little.

I had a problem with hollow-base moulds for the first couple of years until I worked out what I posted above. Now I have 10 or 11 of them and don't have any problems casting with them (other than speed). I have been asked to cast Lyman 386178 or Rapine 386185 bullets several times, but I cannot do it fast enough to make it worth my while. I generally cast one bullet per minute or 1-1/4 if I am really pushing. If you want to speed cast, you will have bad hollow-base bullets every time.

Hi Harry, 35Remington, Andrew375, and everyone else,

Thanks for the continued advice! Suffice to say, I'll run SOFT lead, about 40:1 (I think that's what my alloy works out to), cast hot, and also heat the base plug.
I like the idea of "dry" heat on the plug! I may be able to heatsink a wirewound resistor to the bar under it, and put a low DC voltage on it which would make it safe and hot, and eliminate the expense of the propane.
Andrew: Thanks for the advice on the "Wobbley"... Yes, I've noticed that a number of revolvers tighten up when the hammer is pulled back or dropped.
My Colt New Service is fairly loose until the hammer drops, then it's rock solid!
The Mark VI Wobbley tightens up quite a bit, but there is still about a 1/32" play when the hammer drops.
The weekend looks good, I may wind up casting Friday afternoon.
Midway shipped the RCBS top punch for the Webley to the wrong address! They re-shipped it, and with a small miracle, I might get it for this weekend so I can load and test the latest bullets.

-Tom

[The Virginian]

This is good information as I have not gotten one of these moulds yet and it is good to know the pitfalls.

[HeavyMetal]

Tom:
I'll tell you what I did to get my 45 acp Lyman Devastor mold to work right.

Got a cheap hot plate from Wal Grens, $9.99 last May, this one has the exposed coil on top for heating.

Next I got a steel plate about 1/4 inch thick and 5 inch's square to set on the coils.

Next I took a piece of round stock and drilled a hole through the middle of it just a few thousandths of an inch bigger than the HP pin on the mold and then cut it to a length just shy of touching the "lock" on the HP pin. This lets the tip of the pin sit on the steel plate.

Next I welded the round stock to the center of the steel plate.

Now set this on the hot plate and set the dial at Medium! After that start your lead pot and put the rest of the mold on it to pre heat.

When your ready to start casting dip a corner of the mold in the alloy until the lead does not stick to the mold blocks.

Then dip the sprue cutter, the part you hit to open, into the alloy until the lead does not stick to it.

Now insert pin and pour!

I usually get a keeper on the first try with this technique! You will also find you may need to keep the sprue plate hotter than a regular mold.

This technique generally nets me 97% KEEPERS with no voids in the boolit.

Plus you won't drop your pin in the alloy or worry about knocking over a propane tourch!