So what do you tell a friend who keeps lodging bullets in the barrel?

[ShooterAZ]

I have a good friend who I shoot with frequently. He is also of client of mine from work. He recently took up reloading, and he has lodged a bullet in the barrel just about every time we've gone out lately. I have discussed the dangers, and have asked him to be more careful with what he's doing. I've explained the hows and whys. His reply has been that he is not being reckless. I'm concerned for the safety of whoever he is shooting with. It's to the point that I don't feel safe shooting with him any more. What do I say to him? Do I need to tell him to take up golfing or what? It's apparent that he just doesn't get it. I enjoy shooting with him, but don't feel safe at all any more.

[Beagle333]

So what do you tell a friend who keeps lodging bullets in the barrel?
"Hey, why don't you go shoot down there at the end of the line..... it's not as crowded and you can probably concentrate better. I think I left something in the truck and am gonna go look for it."

[AggieEE]

Oh boy! Is he seating a bullet without powder or not enough? I don't know if there is a youtube video of a stuck bullet gun blowup in progress or not but show him how dangerous it is. If he still doesn't see the light you'll have to tell him you won't shoot with him any more. If not for your own safety for your family's if anything happens to you.

[BACKTOSHOOTING]

I would invite him to your place of reloading or to his to teach, show, him how it should be done correctly, and tell him you will not shoot with him again until he dose.

Your's and anybody's else safety is paramount to your friendship or workplace relationship.

[ShooterAZ]

Iv'e gone over to his place a few times, helping him get set up and teaching him the basics (and removing his stuck bullets). I have told him repeatedly that he needs to study his loading manuals, because he keeps asking me "How am I supposed to know all this stuff?" I answer his questions as they come up, but don't have the time or energy to supervise his reloading...and now I feel like I'm running out of patience with him.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Sounds like some one I don't want to go shooting with. If he does not have the time or patience to learn hand loading then he needs to buy his ammo off the shelf plain and simple.

[scorpion]

Does he reload on a single or progressive press? If he reloads with a single stage u can tell him to get a progressive press . Less chance of a powderless case . I would recomend a dillon rl550 or so .

[starmac]

My thought is if he doesn't have enough sense to reload on a single stage, a progressive sure isn't the answer. I would tend to think if he hasn't gotten the idea by now, he just needs to give it up period, maybe get a lee loader and give it a whirl.

[ShooterAZ]

He is loading on a RCBS single stage press. I agree, a progressive is NOT the answer in this case. I don't know how to tell him that I don't want to shoot with him any more. I mean he's lodged a whole bunch of bullets. You'd think after the first or second time he'd get it figured out...I guess not.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Is he trying load light or using the wrong load data for the powder or just plain missing powder in the case?

[M-Tecs]

Don't sugar coat it. Tell him he will hurt himself or others and if he can't fix his issues he is to stupid to reload and it's to dangerous to be around his reloads.

[ShooterAZ]

I think the first time he did it he had a bunch of case lube inside the case of a .223. The last time he did it, it was in a 45ACP, and he assured me that he did not use any case lube on it. I have no idea what he is doing wrong, and I don't think he does either...because it keeps happening.

[ShooterAZ]

Don't sugar coat it. Tell him he will hurt himself or others and if he can't fix his issues he is to stupid to reload and it's to dangerous to be around his reloads. You are right...I need to put my foot down on this before someone gets hurt or worse.

[Electric88]

I've found that it's pretty hard to load a round without powder on a single stage, but I inspect each case at each step of the process. Can't be too careful.

I agree with previous posters. Educate him on the dangers of not using enough powder (as that sounds like the problem), and encourage him to go by the limits established in load manuals. I really like the Lee Reloading Manual, pretty straightforward. Remind him that a kaboom is a costly mistake to himself and shooters around him.

Or move out of state and change your identity.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Lee Classic Loader! is the answer here.

This is the perfect example of someone who doesn't fully understand the basic steps of reloading, or can't concentrate long enough to work thru a batch.

He is essentially trying to run before he can walk, and it is called "trying to operate on too steep a gradient."

He needs to drop back and learn the basics on a simpler tool as he can't cope with the complexity of the more complicated machine.

If he is loading one at a time with the Lee Tool it is pretty hard to not charge the case, and with the powder dipper it is pretty hard to have an unsafe charge. Also the instructions for the Lee Loader could be blown up onto individual pages and put on the wall in front of him so he could refer to them as he worked.

The other possibility here is that for whatever reason he can't stay focused on his work long enough to complete a batch of cases. If he is getting distracted during the process and forgetting where he is at,or getting cornfused during the process, it is a simple fact that the process is too complicated for him.

In this case once again the Lee Loader will allow him to load one case at a time in a couple of minutes and where ever he stops he can easily pick it up later. I would encourage him to stop after completing a round.

If he can't cope with this method then he needs to buy ammo.

Fortunately he has a friend that is willing to help, but if he is not willing to learn then he needs to find a new hobby cuz this one will blow up in his face.

As a friend it is up to you to enforce this reality on him. Sometimes Reality is a bitch, but it is still a fact whether you like it or not.

Randy

[lefty o]

people that lack the common sense to read a friggen manual before tinkering with things that may blow up in their hand, hurting them or others near them should find an entirely different hobby like knitting! face it, some people have zero mechanical ability, and if you couple that with an unwillingness to learn, dont go shooting with the guy.

[LUBEDUDE]

The Lyman manual 40,41,or 42 is very good at explain the steps like you are 7 years old. Also has lots of picture cartoons to explain as well.

This is what I made my 85 year old Father read before I would teach him. He understood all the steps and progression very clearly, and he understood what he was doing with each pull of the handle.

I also think Randy is right on the money! Your friend needs a Lee Whack a Mole!

[OS OK]

"You oughta have your answer by now…this guy is 'dumber than a box of hammers'…reloading is 'not' his cup of tea.
Sneak over to his house and steal his press and save his life or someone elses. You get another press to monkey with…all is fine in the world again!"

On the serious side…Sometimes it is better to tell a fella the truth…smack him real good with it…if it hurts his feelings so what…they don't bleed.

[Rick Hodges]

Sometimes you just can't get through to them. Cut him loose and don't stand near him at the range. If he is dangerous get him evicted. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...some just have to learn the hard way or not at all.

[Tackleberry41]

Some should just not reload. And no if they cant swing it on a single stage, a progressive is not the answer. Be like telling a bad driver to get a faster car.

There was a guy on this forum, he was on another for a while until everybody got tired of him, birdsedd or how ever he spelled it. Just would not listen to anything anybody said, he was gonna do it his way. Guess hes still alive.

We may have all gotten a stuck bullet at one point or another, we learn from it and generally never do it again. Some just do not have the patience to reload. I see it as meditation, you cant be out there thinking about other stuff, you have to keep your head in what your doing. Any distractions and problems come up quick.

[OS OK]

Sometimes you just can't get through to them. Cut him loose and don't stand near him at the range. If he is dangerous get him evicted. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...some just have to learn the hard way or not at all.

I think the OP here 'may have trained' this guy and is feeling some guilt and responsibility too…between that old proverbial…rock and hard place!

Nice guys often finnish…last.

[country gent]

About all you can do is try to guide him in the right direction as to saftey. Case lube, wet cleaning brass, Improper handling during reloading, attention span, can all cause dead squib rounds. You might suggest 2 loading blocks take a case from first block charge case and set down into second block. You need to get him to examine every step. from case cleaning ( cases still damp from wet cleaning or plugged flash holes can cause this) to bullet seating, especially case charging and his operation of the powder measure. I know one gentleman that uses a tray for brass and removes case from tray, charges it and sits it on an electronic scales to check. sits it in a loading block and starts over. Is he handling primers one at a time. Even something simply like sprayimng lubes or solvents around cases can cause an issue from over spray. But you need to be firm and get him under control. There are pics of plugged barrel burst on the internet to show him and also many reinforcing articles available. At some point if not straightened out he will hurt himself or someone else, not if but when is the question here. He may be uspet at first but in time he may realize and thank-you. Its one of those things that isnt fun or pleasant but needs to be done.

[Smoke4320]

Tell him to spray the barrel with PAM .. it will stop all the sticking :)
You buddy has some serious issues .. needs complete reloading RETRAINING .. and don't stand within 25 yds when he is shooting till he gets his act together

[montana_charlie]

I have told him repeatedly that he needs to study his loading manuals, because he keeps asking me "How am I supposed to know all this stuff?"
Someplace, he got the idea that he doesn't need to know it all, but he is not geared to look in books when he needs guidance.

As a form of remedial training, I would tell him this ...

We are going to your house, and you are going to load a batch of ammo.
I will be there to observe ... not help.
Each time I see you do something wrong I will stop you, and you will have to find the solution by reading the manual.
I won't help with that, either.
When you have corrected the error you will procede until the batch is loaded.

You can shoot up that batch on our next trip to the range. (where you should feel certain that he has safe ammo)

I will then make a second trip to your house when you load a batch of ammo, but I will only observe.
When your batch is loaded I will tell you if it is safe to shoot ... or not.

If it is not safe, it will be up to you to fix it or throw it away ... and you are on your own from that point on.

[Schrag4]

I suppose, unless he's your enemy, you probably shouldn't spare his feelings.

[ShooterAZ]

I think the OP here 'may have trained' this guy and is feeling some guilt and responsibility too…between that old proverbial…rock and hard place!

Nice guys often finnish…last.

^^^^
This. I would feel really awful if he Kaboomed himself. The guy is a carpenter and works with his hands...so I am concerned for him...as well as my safety.

[OS OK]

^^^^
This. I would feel really awful if he Kaboomed himself. The guy is a carpenter and works with his hands...so I am concerned for him...as well as my safety.

I agree…especially if I were there in your place and caught some of the shrapnel upside my head! I've followed this 'really excellent thread' with baited breath eager to read the advice our fellow brass stuffers offer up…some adequate, good and not so good but funny advice and pertinent. I feel especially responsible for the men I have tutored in years past…one of them took some effort.
In this case I think…montana_charlie's advice was the most prudent…after that though, I'm not too sure I could cut him loose if I were not sure of his ability. Don't forget this…being 'frank' with someone may redden their face a bit…but that 'red' on their face was 'blood on the inside' where it belongs!

PS…the carpenter thing…if he is a 'framing carpenter' he is conditioned to 'whacking' things together in a hurry, have to or the bid is too high. Could be you have to get him to 'settle down' a bit, slow down…and that speed he has is in his DNA by now. That might be the problem in a nut shell!

[kungfustyle]

If he just can't get the reloading thing, tell him to stop. One gun accident is to expensive vs. the pennies per round he saves reloading. Or Reload for him and have him buy the components for you. A friend of mine has developed Alzheimers and is on medication, but I don't trust him reloading. So I reload the rifle rounds for him.

[ShooterAZ]

I did in fact take Montana's Charlie's advise and called my friend just a little while ago and spoke to him about his reloads. I offered further assistance to see if we can figure out what in the heck he's doing wrong. He took it better than I expected him to. I told him that it was my obligation as a friend to have the discussion with him. I told him I will not shoot with him until I am comfortable in knowing that he is on the right track for building safe loads (even though I will still be worried!)

[OS OK]

I did in fact take Montana's Charlie's advise and called my friend just a little while ago and spoke to him about his reloads. I offered further assistance to see if we can figure out what in the heck he's doing wrong. He took it better than I expected him to. I told him that it was my obligation as a friend to have the discussion with him. I told him I will not shoot with him until I am comfortable in knowing that he is on the right track for building safe loads (even though I will still be worried!)

"You have his attention now. Make the most of it. This was a 'tale' you just don't read about too much if ever. It will end with your satisfaction…or…it won't end 'till then'.
S AZ…Me thinks…you must be a pretty good neighbor!"

[Edward]

Offer to contribute some powder as he obviously running low and friends don"t let friends shoot when starving for powder :bigsmyl2:

[blackthorn]

I was going to suggest that you let him read this thread but I see you already talked to him. Maybe he should read it anyway! Good luck to both of you.

[Sam Casey]

If he a skilled trades person and is having problems reloading, I would guess there is another issue. I would make clear to him the dangers involved to himself and others and offer to load for him and ease him into rimfire. Or, as others have suggested, keep your distance.

[Bruntson]

Explain to your buddy that everyone has talents in one area and not another. There are guys who are great at drawing and sketching, I lack that talent. Same to is reloading ammo. And from what he has shown you, he doesn't have that natural talent.
Tell him you care about his safety and if he continues with reloading, you worry that he will have a terrible accident. Make it clear that you want no part of aiding to his injury. He can no longer expect to have you help him in reloading, and you will only go shooting with him if he uses store purchased ammo. After all, that's what buds do.....

[ShooterAZ]

Yeah, I thought about showing him this thread. I decided against it for now. The problem is: I STILL don't think he realizes the danger potential. Iv'e mentioned it a number of times to him the possibilities, but he seems to just throw caution to the wind. He has told me that he doesn't think he is reckless, I told him today that I think that he has been. I hope we can get a handle on it!

[Outpost75]

Some people are too stupid to reload.

[Bruntson]

You just nailed the problem. He has no idea what is dangerous and what is not. In reloading, not knowing is an accident about to happen. I just would stop helping the guy, stop going to the range with him, and let him know why.

[victorfox]

I go for these options:1) tell him the dangers of what's happening like in don't push the luck too far and show him googable pictures of exploded hands and barrels.2) ask to see him reload a batch of rounds then correct whatever you see badly done3) tell him no matter what to stick to published data no more no less and to keep all the books open all the time if he can't/don't want to know all this...4) if he insists on the bad behavior tell him he's a menace to your and to himself and from now on all the sh*t that hits the fan is his fault only and then forget about shooting with him. Maybe a beer or some sports no more shooting.I told a buddy once he should quit because he was too dumb to own a gun (not buddys anymore since then...)

[victorfox]

Forgot to add looks like he's thinking oh if load X call for Y grains I'll be very safe at Y -10 grains... What would explain the stuck bullets. Tell him about there are dangers with too much and too little powder. Some nice reading would be articles about reduced loads of slow powders and detonations...

[M-Tecs]

I have been an avid reloader since 1968 or 1969. Through the years I have mentored a large number of people. 99% are very teachable. I have encountered two that were not. First was my ex-father-in-law. Very nice man but he lived in his own world and would miss steps. On two separate occasions he loaded 50 rounds of 45 ACP with no powder. This was on a single station. He was deep in thought on something and he just didn't notice he didn't drop the powder into the case on the loading block.

Second is a current friend. Same deal. He gets caught up in his own thoughts. He has filled the powder measure with the wrong powder more than once. This is after he blew up a rifle with minor injures to himself.

Neither one of these people are stupid but neither one of them has the ability to focus on the task at hand.

[OS OK]

Yeah, I thought about showing him this thread. I decided against it for now. The problem is: I STILL don't think he realizes the danger potential. Iv'e mentioned it a number of times to him the possibilities, but he seems to just throw caution to the wind. He has told me that he doesn't think he is reckless, I told him today that I think that he has been. I hope we can get a handle on it!

Show him this…and there are plenty more on You Tube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmwOGiDNXis

And get him to read this thread…he will understand that it's not just your opinion and you are not the bad guy…he will see plenty of these guys that say ''Dump his butt"…He will be more amenable to correction then…or…"Dump his Butt!"

PS………………………………………………………………………...BEST THREAD THIS WEEK!

[nagantguy]

Good for you for looking out for a friend, and feeling responsibility towards him and his/your safety. I know how your feeling, dealt with a similar issue with a dear friend and drugs, same possibility of collateral damage, same possibility of death and sever injury....mine ended well after a beating and flushing of the dope and a drive to rehab with the threat of more beatings and police involvement. You've already told him, tried to teach him, warned him I'm afraid your next step is to say goodbye to a shooting buddy, we take enough risk as is in our daily life to willing stand by a potential bomb made by a guy unwilling to learn. I was worried if I bailed on my friend he would die, your friend could as well, I took drastic measures, after rehab I was willing to help him one more time, even if it meant we both went to lock up, then I was done, no more I could do for him......luckily after we fought and I flushed his junk he took his rehab seriously and is clean to this day.....not everyone will take advantage of a second chance.

[koehlerrk]

Show him a video of a rifle firing with a barrel obstruction. It clearly demonstrates why you want every bullet to exit the barrel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4AqMl1A4aQ

[Pb Burner]

ShooterAZ,
Good on you for helping someone get started, and trying to watch out for him when he seems to not realize the danger.
Just a thought...is he tumbling his brass clean? I was thinking maybe media stuck in the flash hole..?
I always double check mine in a loading block. I've always wondered if a stuck pieace of media would cause a "dud", or what?

[ShooterAZ]

During our conversation today, I mentioned various causes including media in the flash hole, oil on the primer, etc. I just don't think he is paying as much attention to detail that he needs to.

[standles]

My thought is if he doesn't have enough sense to reload on a single stage, a progressive sure isn't the answer. I would tend to think if he hasn't gotten the idea by now, he just needs to give it up period, maybe get a lee loader and give it a whirl.

YES! What he said.

[standles]

Maybe collect some internet pictures of the injuries that can be had with this dangerous practices of his. Then explain that becoming detail oriented or just buy factory rounds is a lot cheaper than the hospital bills and lifelong disabilities or death that can and do occur.

Then take your hand and slap him on the ear hard. When he asks why you hit him in the head say I hit you in the ear. That is detail oriented versus macro oriented.

[JSnover]

Maybe collect some internet pictures of the injuries that can be had with this dangerous practices of his. Then explain that becoming detail oriented or just buy factory rounds is a lot cheaper than the hospital bills and lifelong disabilities or death that can and do occur.
^That! Skilled trades are difficult without fingers or eyes. It's a matter of time unless he gets his act together and if he doesn't, make it clear that he should not be reloading.

"Some men just can't be reached."

[Outpost75]

This is beyond ignorance. It is stupidity.

There are some people who come into the shop who are too stupid to own guns, and this guy is approaching that threshold. You can't cure stupid.

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1FkEVCkJ-Q

[leeggen]

ShooterAZ why don't you just tell him what you told us in your first post, but also offer to watch him load some as was said here also. Friends don't let friends drink and drive. Friends laso don't let loaders/shootyers get hurt if we can help it. Now if he gets an attitude then that is up to him and you need to stick to your word and don't shoot with him for awhile. Also give him a call and check how he is doing so he knows you want to keep the friendship but without the shooting. Bet after he thinks for awhile he will have you watch his process and give him some help then.
CD

[opos]

Going to be very direct...is there any distraction while he loads? TV..phone....texting, media, kids, pets..worst of all even one beer or a pain pill, etc? If he's just plain unable to concentrate it may be time to tell him he's just not loading material....some folks can't fly an airplane...not a bad thing...just don't get the mechanics and the feel...you might keep him and some other folks alive or uninjured.

I have a good friend...he's been involved in big time drag racing and engine building...he's moving 500 mph standing still all the time...he loves to shoot...we've talked about reloading..he realizes he's not reloading material and won't even try...smart!

[MtGun44]

No powder rounds means his methods stink. He needs to change how he does it or he will
have a ruined barrel soon. Maybe he isn't the right type, too slipshod, or maybe he needs
to get a bit more serious.

[snowwolfe]

Just a hunch but is your friend a cheapskate? Has he voiced any opinions on how high the cost of powder is? I just get the feeling he is cheap and trying ways to save money without realizing the danger.

[Iowa Fox]

Explain it slowly and detailed the ramifications of his loading technique. If he still doesn't get it put it in language he can understand, Profanity!!!!!

[nvbirdman]

You should have started out telling him every time he sticks a bullet "It can't be fixed. You'll have to buy a new gun." He'd either go broke or be more careful.
I assume he uses a loading block for his charged cases, give him a small cheap flashlight and tell him when the loading block is full, take about thirty seconds to check the powder level in each case (he should already be doing that anyway).

[ShooterAZ]

Got some even more disturbing news on this front. I learned that my friends wife has enrolled in a handgun training course at Gunsite in April. My friend told me that he intends to reload all the ammo for his wife to shoot throughout the course. I gave him my opinion of doing this, an emphatic NO. I have my doubts that he will heed my advice. I fear for her, and there's not a whole heck of a lot I can do about it.

[Electric88]

Uhhhh... That's not good.

A slightly different though on the subject matter. Perhaps when you speak with him, encourage him to start with one caliber and learn instead of trying to learn to reload and doing it on multiple calibers at once. He clearly is struggling, and you can suggest the one caliber idea to him as a way for him to focus on the issue. I recommend 45acp, as it is much easier to reload than most any other caliber. Definitely easier than a rifle round. Perhaps encourage him to strive towards masterfully reloading for that caliber before moving on. Additionally, bring up his wife's safety as a concern for his reloading habits. She may not recognize a squib like he would and be at greater risk for a kaboom. Just a thought

[EMC45]

I would encourage him to take up another hobby.

[RayinNH]

Encourage him to take up airguns instead.

[OS OK]

S AZ…Now you have two people riding your conscious…It's dang simple now…"Show him this thread, perhaps wife also, but warn HER of this dilemma your in!"

You are barefoot in the center of a dark room full of bear traps looking for the light switch…you need a Quick Resolve!

I realize that you can't just…DUMP HIS BUTT…but...if you don't heed the warnings in this thread…your conscious is going to…KICK YOUR BUTT.!.

Best-O-luck with this pard…OS OK

PS…"Sometimes, not often…but...sometimes you have to take the Bull by the horns!"

[bedbugbilly]

You pretty much explained his problem in your one post . . "How am I supposed to know all this stuff?"

As in any hobby, if you want to do it and do it well you will put the necessary effort in to it. Obviously he is not doing this or doesn't have the capacity to understand. We all know the necessity of having, reading, studying and referring to a loading manual . . . and most of us have more than one. Sure . . . a squib can happen. I've had one and I know exactly how it happened . . . and it was MY fault. But for a person to have repeated problems such as you describe, it points to a person either not being able to have the capacity to learn "why" and correct it . . . which takes time and study . . . or just pure laziness with an attitude of "good enough".

I would just sit him down and have a talk with him. Emphasize that his friendship is valuable to you but that you can no longer go shooting with him until he learns to correct the problems he is having and learn to reload in a proper and safe manner. Explain that you are not only concerned about his safety, but YOUR safety as well as that of others that ay be around him when he is shooting his reloads.

Look at it this way . . . . would you go out with him to eat and if he had a large amount of alcohol to drink, get in a car with him driving? Would you go golfing with him and have him practice swinging his club next to you or someone else where he could hit and injure someone? I doubt it very much and I have to believe that a conversation would ensue in both of those cases. Shooting with someone who is "un-safe" is no different. After all . . . you are showing concern for him as a friend in regards to his un-safe practices . . . and if he were a friend to you . . . he would be concerned about your safety and take measures to clean up his act. Just my humble opinion . . . .

[ShooterAZ]

No, Iv'e told him what I needed to tell him, and warned him of the dangers. What he does from here on out is on him. I offered my assistance and advice to him. He can be a stubborn person, so he can learn the hard way I suppose. I won't lose any sleep or worry about my personal safety any more, because I will not be shooting with him any more if he is using his reloads.

[OS OK]

No, Iv'e told him what I needed to tell him, and warned him of the dangers. What he does from here on out is on him. I offered my assistance and advice to him. He can be a stubborn person, so he can learn the hard way I suppose. I won't lose any sleep or worry about my personal safety any more, because I will not be shooting with him any more if he is using his reloads.

OK…your "No" if firm and that is an end to it. Just a couple of words in parting…
I've had a couple of situations where I've looked back in life and thought…"Why didn't I…"

This is one of the 'best' threads I've read…I hope they make a sticky of it.

OS OK

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks for the encouragement OS OK. And thanks to everyone else who has offered their sound advise on this. It wasn't easy for me to make that phone call and tell him how I felt. At this point I don't know what more I can do. Like one poster put it: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". This is sorta how I feel now. All I can do is hope that he takes me up on the assistance I offered. Yes, I will feel bad if something happens, and yes he will still be my friend. But no I can't force him to do anything. The ball is in his court now, I hope he does the right thing.

[Walla2]

I have to compliment you for tackling this thorny subject. Sometimes we have to bite the lemon and do uncomfortable things for our friends. Just think how bad you would feel if you hadn't spoken up and he hurt himself or worse yet killed someone else. My compliments.

[skeettx]

As a friend, give him a bar of soap and a small flashlight.
The soap is for before handling primers, his loads might just be OK but
he may be getting grease on the primers and causing the stuck bullets.
The flashlight is to insure powder in the case.
Maybe this will fix his issues
Mike

[Hamish]

Someplace, he got the idea that he doesn't need to know it all, but he is not geared to look in books when he needs guidance.

As a form of remedial training, I would tell him this ...

We are going to your house, and you are going to load a batch of ammo.
I will be there to observe ... not help.
Each time I see you do something wrong I will stop you, and you will have to find the solution by reading the manual.
I won't help with that, either.
When you have corrected the error you will procede until the batch is loaded.

You can shoot up that batch on our next trip to the range. (where you should feel certain that he has safe ammo)

I will then make a second trip to your house when you load a batch of ammo, but I will only observe.
When your batch is loaded I will tell you if it is safe to shoot ... or not.

If it is not safe, it will be up to you to fix it or throw it away ... and you are on your own from that point on.

I like this suggestion very, very much!

[SSGOldfart]

I would invite him to your place of reloading or to his to teach, show, him how it should be done correctly, and tell him you will not shoot with him again until he dose.

Your's and anybody's else safety is paramount to your friendship or workplace relationship.
OR go to his place and watch him reloading tell him you need to learn his way seeing how you never have a bullet stick in your barrel,or I guess you could buy him some new shooting glasses,because he's going to need them at some point.it might save a eye.

[claude]

I have a good friend who I shoot with frequently.


He is also of client of mine from work.

What are you more afraid of losing? A client, or a freind, because you stand a very real chance of losing both......

[SSGOldfart]

I was going to suggest that you let him read this thread but I see you already talked to him. Maybe he should read it anyway! Good luck to both of you.
That's some,sound advice we might even have another member after that:bigsmyl2:

[blackthorn]

Quote "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"!

The other half---You can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think!

Good luck with your friend.

[Tackleberry41]

I have a somewhat similar friend. His reloading equipment is rather lacking. Yea he has a press, well 2 single stage ones. A tumbler, a few dies and a scale. I don't like his scale, one of the cheap RCBS electronic ones. He says he is used to it. Not seen him blow anything up or get anything stuck. But cant really tell him anything, he has 1 book to go off one of the brand books so only has info on bullets they sell. Refuses to use cast in anything. Does not own a trimmer even tho he is trying to load super accurate 308. Yea you can get away without one, but for precision you sort of need one. He has found a load for his 300AAC, subsonic, but has no idea the velocity. It cycles and hits the target, so good enough. I can hear the velocity variations or is close to going over. I watched him use someone elses reloads one day. I would have stopped after the first one blew out a primer, got down inside the trigger and stopped rifle. No he was just gonna blow them off. Who ever had loaded them swaged down .311 bullets, or so he says. I really doubt it. He had some cast Lee 230 gr one day, same guy cast em. Offered them to me, not one was even .308. I just melted them down and cast pistol bullets out of them, free lead.

[trapper9260]

I learn reloading from the Lyman book and went back if did not understand it.Then went into cast and now that was years ago and still learning.When someone ask about doing reloading I tell them get the Lyman reloading manual and read it all the way and then after I will help them from there and if they have anything to ask after i will,try to explain to them and go from there.But some just can not get it.

[Wayne Smith]

If you are still willing to deal with him a serious joint problem solving operation is indicated. We can all guess what he is doing wrong but until someone puts eyeballs on his process there is no way to tell. After reading this thread I don't know if it is not in some mistaken way deliberate. That's why problem solving skills are so important, and apparantly he does not posess such.

[Markbo]

No, Iv'e told him what I needed to tell him, and warned him of the dangers. What he does from here on out is on him. I offered my assistance and advice to him. He can be a stubborn person, so he can learn the hard way I suppose. I won't lose any sleep or worry about my personal safety any more, because I will not be shooting with him any more if he is using his reloads.

That is the right answer. Not easy I am sure, but the right one.

[country gent]

Alot of the classes given around here one of the specifications for the class is factory ammo must be used. Another thing is a missfire or squib will probably get the wife removed from the class if not it will cause her alot of embarrasment if not worse. Talk to his wife and him together ( going behind his back will only make him defensive) and explain what the dangers are and resulting issues could be. Although if hes getting defensive it may be better to walk away.

[C. Latch]

I've been reloading for 30 of my 40 years.

My wife has very slowly taken an interest in shooting. We're training her now on the basics; for some time she's been able to get 'her' pistol into action and we're teaching her to do the same with more of the handguns we own, and have started doing the same with a couple of ARs, one of which she used to shoot her first deer last fall.

THERE IS NO WAY IN THE WORLD I would send her off to a training class with ammo that I reload. I trust my ammo, enough to let her shoot it, but I'm always hovering over her as she shoots, and away from home, at a class where she'll end up shooting under pressure, I don't want to introduce any variable that will complicate the experience for her. I had a dud once during live fire on a training course with other shooters beside me. I knew how to safely handle the situation but don't want my wife to have to go through that until she is much, much more experienced.

[dubber123]

You could go to the local pawn shop and pick up an old Taurus revolver. Tap a bullet about mid bore, and then from a safe distance with a string, fire off a double charged load. Do all of this with your friend(s) watching. This is a very real scenario that could happen to someone who can't reliably charge their cases while loading. It might be the visual he needs. I wish you luck with this one.

[M-Tecs]

Started reloading in 69 or 70. In apx 400,000 rounds of reloads percentage wise I have had more FTF with factory than reloads.

I am not counting the primers recovered from a flooded basement. With these I would get a FTF every couple of hundred rounds.

As a member of military shooting teams Uncle Sam provided me with 100k of factory.

I would trust my life and the lives of my loved ones on my reloads.

[maxreloader]

Make sure he has a will, a good life insurance policy, and stand behind him at all times.

[leeggen]

ShooterAZ you are an admiral friend. Not many would stand up as you have. Maybe after he thinks about this he will ask for some help in a strange sort of way trying to keep his self respect. Just be there for him.
CD

[Blackwater]

Wow! I haven't had a chill run up my spine like this post did on reading it, in a very, very long time! All I can say is that if it were me, friend or not, I'd HAVE to confront him with the reality of his denials, and since he hasn't responded to more PC comments and advice, I'd confront him with my well placed anger at his putting MY life and the lives of others in jeopardy, simply so he can continue to "feel good about himself." One can be PC, or one can be EFFECTIVE sometimes, and when it comes to your and other's lives, NO friendship is worth NOT confronting him as firmly and forcefully as he requires you to. I've had to do this a time or two for various reasons, and I've gotten varied results. If they reacted poorly, and continued anyway, the friendship was done. I'll take that rather than let myself or any other REAL friends get harmed in the process. It's a decision we all must make, sooner or later, and for one reason or another. It's the hallmark of a real and effective MAN to stand up for what's clearly and undeniably RIGHT now and then. If we can't or won't do that, then don't we really deserve what we get from "friends" like this? It's a question we all must answer sooner or later.

And if even that doesn't work, I'd register a formal and very pointed complaint with the rangemaster or owner. Nobody like this can be worth keeping him in the membership. If he happens to own the place, then I'd just absent myself, and gladly from such a place. We always have the option of throwing ourselves into a raging fire, but we don't HAVE to, and the fact that this would even be a question shows just how deeply political correctness and "going along to get along" has truly pervaded our "thinking." SOMEBODY has to take a stand, and when you look around and see nobody else doing it, that leaves our own selves, and to NOT take a stand against such dangers makes us complicit, and THAT is something I will NEVER be a part of. But that's just me.

Kind'a tough, I know, but that's the way I am, and will continue to be unless and until there's some reason to be otherwise in such situations.

[opos]

Hard to "scold a friend" but enabling (like with an addict or alcoholic) just makes things worse and more dangerous in the long run....and until he figures out what he's doing it will get worse...old saying about "practice makes perfect" is wrong! Perfect practice makes perfect...he's missing something big time and the more he misses it the more he's going to make the same error over and over...

[Plate plinker]

Try your best to get him educated preferably by somebody else. If not ask what you can do for his family to you know help at the funeral.

[ShooterAZ]

I have seen my friend a few times since "our talk". While everything has been cordial, there has not been one single mention of shooting or reloading. Everything has been all business. I still remain hopeful that he will get things on the right track.

[flounderman]

If he is loading on a single stage, he should use a loading block and he can look at the cases after the powder has been measured into them and visually check them before seating a bullet. He is forgetting to throw a powder charge, apparently. The other thing would be he is using a bulky powder and it is hanging up in the measure. A loading block would probably solve the problem and speed up the process.

[ShooterAZ]

I know for sure he's using a loading block. What I don't know is how he's using his powder measure, and whether or not he's inspecting after charging his cases. It's hard for me to understand how it keeps happening. You'd think after the first one or two lodged boolits he'd be all over getting it figured out and solved. It's very frustrating.

[Markbo]

To follow up with the addict/alcoholic analogy you are at the point of letting go. For your own sake. You have done more than your duty for your friend. The rest is up to him. Let go...Let God.

[brstevns]

Lee Classic Loader! is the answer here.

This is the perfect example of someone who doesn't fully understand the basic steps of reloading, or can't concentrate long enough to work thru a batch.

He is essentially trying to run before he can walk, and it is called "trying to operate on too steep a gradient."

He needs to drop back and learn the basics on a simpler tool as he can't cope with the complexity of the more complicated machine.

If he is loading one at a time with the Lee Tool it is pretty hard to not charge the case, and with the powder dipper it is pretty hard to have an unsafe charge. Also the instructions for the Lee Loader could be blown up onto individual pages and put on the wall in front of him so he could refer to them as he worked.

The other possibility here is that for whatever reason he can't stay focused on his work long enough to complete a batch of cases. If he is getting distracted during the process and forgetting where he is at,or getting cornfused during the process, it is a simple fact that the process is too complicated for him.

In this case once again the Lee Loader will allow him to load one case at a time in a couple of minutes and where ever he stops he can easily pick it up later. I would encourage him to stop after completing a round.

If he can't cope with this method then he needs to buy ammo.

Fortunately he has a friend that is willing to help, but if he is not willing to learn then he needs to find a new hobby cuz this one will blow up in his face.

As a friend it is up to you to enforce this reality on him. Sometimes Reality is a bitch, but it is still a fact whether you like it or not.

Randy

Like he said!!

[lightman]

You need to tell him he needs to learn to reload. Plain and simple. How you word it depends on how good of friends you are and both of your backgrounds. Construction workers talk to each other differently than Dr's or Lawyers. Offer to help him. Be firm, explain the dangers he is putting himself and others in.

[Tackleberry41]

I have seen my friend a few times since "our talk". While everything has been cordial, there has not been one single mention of shooting or reloading. Everything has been all business. I still remain hopeful that he will get things on the right track.

This is what tends to happen. Many simply cannot admit they are doing anything wrong. If you push it they get mad, so let him stick bullets, hopefully when Darwin strikes it will only be him that has a problem. He may up and quit reloading vs trying to do it right. Its what many do, its not them its something else.

I have 2 friends who reload. One calls for advice, or what he should buy. The other, well I just let him do his thing. Its sort of an off limits thing now. Like politics has become. We can talk about guns or how screwed up women are, but politics is taboo now. I tend to be the devils advocate and challenge some of his ideas, Im fine with being challenged, thats how you learn new stuff. Some are very comfortable in what they are doing and what nothing to ever change.

One would think somebody who does not know so much would ask me questions, since I am the one who figures out how to form 577/450 brass from 24ga shotshells. Or tries stuff thats not in books. Some works some does not, but thats how you build up your knowledge. If I ran into an issue and had someone with more knowledge to call, I would. There is nothing wrong with admitting one does not know everything.

[sw282]

l used to shoot with my BOSS and one day shooting his reloads in my K38 l got a bullet stuck in the barrel/ forcing cone locking it up. We were shooting on an Army post with an armorer on duty that actually knew revolvers... He unstuck the bullet with no damage to my gun..Later on my boss jokingly mentioned he had been drinking at the loading bench and may have missed a powder charge or two...This guy being ALWAYS right and never wrong could take NO criticism... l simply quit shooting with him. Sad tho, because it was a dream setup... Shooting at lunch on an Army post... Unlimited access to scrap lead along with ZILLIONS of WW 38 wadcutter brass for sixty cents a pound

[Lance Boyle]

ugh, I've helped a few reloaders who were a bit lost but that many squibs is unreal. I've had one round that got fired in a rifle that lacked a charge in 30 years of reloading. After that I didn't just shine a light on the block and scan them all once. I scanned them 4 times with the light. row by row left to right, column by column top to bottom, then again both ways in reverse. I'm not having a second squib due to an oversight if I can help it.

As far as your buddy and not wanting to read the manual. Can he read? Not all tradesmen can. Some guys went right to work out of high school and they hated school and didn't do their studies. I say this as I had an NCO in the guard who slid by for years unable to read. I finally figured it out when doing some maintenance on a tracked vehicle and I asked him to read a section to me as my hands were greasy. I just read that section like 5 minutes before but wanted to check something. He fumbled for about 3 minutes and changed the page from where it was and was studying the pictures on another page. I was all "what the h" until it clicked in my head that he couldn't read. Army manuals aren't written for doctoral candidates, they're written to a very basic level.

It took me until I was 22 or so until I ran into this. It happens and it saddens me as I'm a voracious reader at times and get more entertainment in a book (or online forums) than from watching TV.

[ShooterAZ]

He can read. I just get the impression that now that he's been reloading for a few months, he thinks he knows everything there is to know. He has no clue about fast powders, slow powders, seating depths and so on. I have seen primers not fully seated (high primers) on .223 loads for his AR. High primers on .45ACP as well. I have seen him lodge bullets in .223 because he seated his bullets 1/4" beyond the cannulere. His explanation was that he followed the loading manual seating depth, but he was seating Hornady bullets from the Nosler manual with totally different bullet weights. I keep telling him and warning him of the dangers of his repeated mistakes...but he doesn't listen. I'm tired of telling him the same thing over and over again. And after all this, he still asks "How am I supposed to know all this". He still hasn't approached me regarding his loading practices, and I'm not gonna hold my breath. I won't be shooting with him any more any time soon.

[Markbo]

..."How am I supposed to know all this".....

Read the freaking Manuals, you moron!

The best advice I got when I started loading relatively late in life was get 2 manuals, one being Lyman's and the other The ABCs of reloading; read them both, highlighting notes or information of particular interest.

Then, read them again. When you finish THEN start putting your equipment together and start on ONE straight walled pistol case. I did all thls and credit that advice for not blowing myself up. If I had not asked - and followed - that advice I would have been left to my own learning curve which as common sense tells you could be dangerous.

[Lance Boyle]

I watched a buddy load some .243 on his RCBS Jr or pardner press. Loading with a scoop from his lee load er kit that he upgraded from. I actually helped him build his basement bench. He being a mechanical engineer student was completely over thinking that.

I bought my own RCBS reloader special 3 kit from Gander Mountain back when they had a catalog. I paid by check, the other option was money order.


I read the RCBS manual from cover to cover and then mounted my press to an old desk in the attic. I loaded .308 with 110 spire points so that I could stop using 180's for wood chucks in the summer. :oops: I had a lot down pat then and kept the same way for a few years, adding in a Dillon 550b and some shotgun presses. Go slow and methodical and you don't have too many problems that you can't solve. The RCBS manual had most of the errors you could make already spelled out.

The biggest flaw in my operation was crunching the die to the shellholder on everything and leaving too much headspace shortening my brass life.

Another hiccup was dealing with crimped primers and not removing enough.

He doesn't sound to motivated to self teach himself to do it as well as he should. I'm not sure which is worse, his sloppiness or the bum that wants you to do all his reloading for him on your dime using your components up with insufficient compensation. I've one friend in particular that thought he could buy "me" a few boxes of .45 bullets and I'd do all the rest with my components for free because hey I bought in bulk and already saved. Oh and he said I like doing it and it was a waste of his time to reload. Needless to say I didn't reload for the presumptive clown and held out the offer to teach him.