Winchester 38-55 mold?

[THBailey]

This sort of duplicates a post I put over in the Mold forum, so bear with me. Don't ask me why, but I am building a rolling block chambered for 38-55. Will be using the Holy Black only, as I put a TJ's liner, 1-14 twist, into one of the Swedish rollers Simpson's was selling. The bore is .368 and groove is .375. I ordered the 38-55 McPherson chamber reamer from Dave Manson this morning. Does anyone shooting this cartridge use one of the old original Winchester 38-55 marked molds? I saw a few for sale on Ebay and thought it might be a bit soulful to use one of the old molds. If so, how do you like it and what size and weight boolit does yours throw? Also, forgetting the old mold for a minute, what weight and style bullet might be recommended for this twist rate? Thanks so much

[Hiwall55]

14 twist opens quite a few options, but not for an original mould because they are .379 or bigger.Ivwould recommend buying a 335 grain Lyman postel to start with and size them to .377 they will shoot well .

[ascast]

Te correct procedure is to buy a mold, and then find a rifle to fit it.

[Chill Wills]

You are going to use the BAC brass - right? Not Starline.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have an original Winchester mold for 38/55. It is a single cavity with wooden handles and unvented blocks. It casts at around .379 and the bullets weigh approx 255 grains. I use it in an 1885 Hi-Wall, an 1894 rifle and carbine. As a single cavity it is not the fastest casting mold; if I push it then the mold overheats. it has multiple lube grooves and I do not size, but shoot as cast. My lube is the old NRA 50/50 alox and beeswax mix. As cast diameter appears to be about right for the three rifles involved as groups are decent at 50 and 100 yards. The High Wall does better than the other two probably because it has the longest barrel at 28 inches. LLS

[THBailey]

You are going to use the BAC brass - right? Not Starline.

With the McPherson chamber I was planning to use the Starline 2.125 brass. I might be wrong (often am) but I thought the choice was Winchester or Starline?

[THBailey]

14 twist opens quite a few options, but not for an original mould because they are .379 or bigger.Ivwould recommend buying a 335 grain Lyman postel to start with and size them to .377 they will shoot well .

Thanks for the advise. I assume you are talking about the Lyman 378674 ? Can I ask why you refer to it as "postel"? A new term for me. Thanks again.

[Gunlaker]

With the McPherson chamber I was planning to use the Starline 2.125 brass. I might be wrong (often am) but I thought the choice was Winchester or Starline?

IMHO the main problem with the McPherson reamer is that it's 0.397" at the case mouth. Starline 2.125" brass averages about 0.0075" thick at the case mouth. If you subtract twice the brass thickness from the reamer diameter at the mouth you get about 0.006" clearance for the bullet, assuming it's 0.376. I think that's a lot more than you need. The freebore diameter is also 0.381" which is way too big for a .375" bore.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

One more thing. I have a reamer based on this print, but I reduced the case mouth to 0.396". If I did it again I'd reduce it further to 0.394". I changed the freebore diameter to 0.376" to better match the groove diameter of my barrel, and I changed the leade angle to 1.5 degrees per side, but this was for breech seating.

If I was to build a fixed ammunition .38-55, I would look for a print by Dan Theodore. Or I would change the McPherson reamer to match the front end that Shiloh uses. 0.050" freebore that is max 0.001" larger than groove, and a 2.5 degree per side leade. Dan's chambers are proven to work well, and so are Shiloh's.

I don't say this because I'm an expert. I just copy those that are :-)

Chris.

[THBailey]

Well thanks for the info Gunlaker. The standard McPherson is on the way to me. I know .001 larger than groove is thought to be the best size for cast boolits, which means .376 in my case. I wonder if a .378 or .379, might swage through the McPherson and be a bit more accurate?

[Chill Wills]

Gunlaker has it exactly right.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all but this is the classic problem with the 38-55. Over time, a few things have happened with this chambering. Two different size (length) cases. Two different size barrels. Two different size pilots. Two different case wall thickness.
That makes for a lot of combinations. Really, only one set of numbers, all in agreement will produce an accurate rifle.

The 38-55 can really be a great and accurate round but who ever puts it together NEEDS to by aware of and on top of all the variables.

THBailey - you have not made chips with a reamer yet, so I would take a deep breath and then really get into the details of what you are about to start.
Again - not trying to be a s***A**. Not at all.

I have been down this road. I have expensive rifles that don't work. It's not fun. Especially after all the time, effort and expense!
So, you have come this far, give it a little more thought. Ask some more questions....
Maybe sell or at least save that reamer you ordered for something else or have it reground.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

[lup]

Are you adverse to paper patching a lead bullet? You might get a better seal and still be period.

[THBailey]

Well thanks so much for the input and advice. And trust me, I do truly appreciate finding out I am suffering from cranial into anal insertion syndrome BEFORE I spend money on my mistake. Looking at the numbers I see what you are saying Chris. Launching a .376 cast, or a .375 jacketed for that matter, through a sloppy case mouth into a .381 freebore is kind of asking the boolit to be catawampus as it engages the rifled bore.

And thanks for your insight also Michael. I think I get your point. The 38-55, perhaps more than most, comes in several flavors. My bore is .368 and the groove is .375 which looks to be towards the tight end and so I need a chambering, brass, and boolit that will compliment each other to present the boolit properly to these dimensions.


Chris, I hunted for the Dan Theodore chamber, all I found was a collaboration he did with Dick Trenk for Pedersoli, but as that drawing shows a .379 groove diameter I suspect I have not found what you had in mind. And I could not find a drawing for the Shiloh chamber. I did find a drawing on a thread I think you participated in a few years ago that looked like it might have some promise in light of the points you have raised:

161224

Your further advices are most appreciated.

Thanks again.

[THBailey]

Are you adverse to paper patching a lead bullet? You might get a better seal and still be period.

Well thanks for that, but I have never done paper patched before and I think I might try running some jacketed bullets also, just for grins, seeing as I have 250 Speer .375 235gr semi-spritzer jacketed bullets in stock. Bought them in an online auction, so ascast might be closer to the mark than he might of thought...!!

[Gunlaker]

You might want to check with a few guys over on the ASSRA forum to get other peoples views on what makes a good chamber for fixed ammunition given Starline long brass and your bore and groove diameters. There is a lot of good knowledge over there, especially on single shots in smaller calibers. You'll probably find that there are a lot of opinions on how much clearance you need at the case mouth for bullet release. Plus there is a lot of debate on leade angle.

I don't remember actually seeing a Dan Theodore print for the .38-55 but I've heard people mention it. Dan was a good guy who's ideas worked quite well for a lot of people. I trust what he had to say.

I would consider trying something that had 1 to 2 thousandths clearance per side at the case mouth, and a freebore 0.050" long and 0.001" over groove diameter. Or no freebore at all. I really don't know what the optimal leade angle is, but my Shiloh's are 2.5 degrees per side an they certainly work very well in .40 and .45 cal.

But like I say, I'm not an expert. I just look at other peoples ideas that work.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

I have a chamber print here in front of me that I got from Dan some time ago. The rifle is a work in progress and I have been riding the fence about a few things so I have not started it. Some of the delay is my friend Mike Lewis, the person I was going to have do the smith work has been away from the bench as of late taking care of some important family maters. I guess that is the long way of saying I do not have any actual experience with a rifle set up like this.

Anyway, I have a paper copy from Dan for my long Starline brass, Bore 0.367" - Groove 0.375" 12 twist 38-55. I can photograph it and post it. I will call out the numbers here if it will help you think about this in a different way. It's none of my business but I just hate seeing someone put so much effort into a rifle only to get it built and then learn that "if only I knew" I would have done it different. I have more than one of those rifles.

Dan's print calls for

OAL - Chamber depth = 2.1300" 45 degree case stop to a 0.3760" free bore 0.100" long. Then 3 degree per side leade angle into the rifling.

The part you are interested in is the last section of the case to mouth. That is as follows:
There is a 0.300" long cylinder section (no taper) from the case mouth back. The back end of the bullet lives here. At least until the big red light comes on.
Dan's print call out a 0.3950" diameter for this case mouth section.

I have a minute this morning. I will see if I can photograph the print and post it back to back with this post so they run together.

[Chill Wills]

I have a minute this morning. I will see if I can photograph the print and post it back to back with this post so they run together.

161247
OK - See if this can be viewed large enough to be read.

[Chill Wills]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=161224&d=1455759931

This might be a good chamber too. It is tighter than the DanT chamber in all respects. It may be too small in some areas.

************************************************** ***********************
Before settling on a reamer...
I would order brass from Starline if that is the brass you intend to use. Mic it. Barrow a tube mic if you do not have one. Then adjust the chamber to meet your needs and brass. There sometimes are small variations in Starline brass lots.

FYI - Buffalo arms co has correct - full length brass too. it is a little thicker than the Starline.

I would, get the cases in hand - settle on a chamber print. Then - Chamber the rifle.

I am in the same boat. I have an action or two. I have a #4 12 twist barrel from GM. I have 250 pieces of Starline 2.125" brass. I just need to order the reamer and build the rifle.

[Gunlaker]

Thank you Michael. I'm going to save these and put them with the rest of the reamer and bullet prints that I got from Dan.

I like the cylindrical sections near the case mouth. I think that is a good idea.

I also have a 12 twist GM barrel that I was going to build as a .38-55, or .38-50 but I'm not sure I'll ever go through with it. I've even got a PJ mold. The more I shoot these rifles the more I like .40 and .45 cal rifles. The .44 might be intersting too.

If I build the .38-55 it'd mostly be used as a practice gun to reduce wear and tear on the shoulder, and keep the powder and lead costs down. So far I'm still sitting on the fence. :-).

Chris.

[THBailey]

Just wanted to say thanks again gentlemen. I had some good discussions over at ASSRA forum and on the phone with Dave Manson. My reamer and a couple of pieces from the brass lot I bought are going back to Dave and we will see what we will come up with. Again, many thanks.

[Chill Wills]

Did you get a revised print of what you are having Dave Manson create for you? I am ready to order a reamer too and get going on my 38-55. I would be interested in how yours goes.

Michael Rix

[Gunlaker]

I saw the discussion on ASSRA. I think you are off to a good start. Chris.

[THBailey]

Michael: Not yet. We left it that I would send back the reamer and the brass, Dave will take a look, and then we will decide what I will do. I will keep you in the loop for sure.

[Paul_R]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=161224&d=1455759931

This might be a good chamber too. It is tighter than the DanT chamber in all respects. It may be too small in some areas.

************************************************** ***********************
Before settling on a reamer...
I would order brass from Starline if that is the brass you intend to use. Mic it. Barrow a tube mic if you do not have one. Then adjust the chamber to meet your needs and brass. There sometimes are small variations in Starline brass lots.

FYI - Buffalo arms co has correct - full length brass too. it is a little thicker than the Starline.

I would, get the cases in hand - settle on a chamber print. Then - Chamber the rifle.

I am in the same boat. I have an action or two. I have a #4 12 twist barrel from GM. I have 250 pieces of Starline 2.125" brass. I just need to order the reamer and build the rifle.

Near as I can tell from a chamber cast this is the chamber I have in my new to me Remington roller. I bought a 38-295D from Accurate molds that I'm hoping will be just the ticket. Haven't had time to try it out yet.

162912

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-295D-D.png

[Chill Wills]

For Bullets.....

Depends on the what you will be doing with the rifle.
Is it set up as a target rifle and are you going to shoot it as a target rifle?

That bullet might be OK or even good for short range or schuetzen type matches. If just for fun shooting, fine too.

The reason I ask is for mid-range or BPCR silhouette, much better bullet designs are common. For anything past 100-200y that large flat point is not your friend. Plus the bullet body might be tuned up a little too.

If this is a concern of yours too, check out the better designs offered by Buffalo Arms Co., Steve Brooks Molds, Old West Bullets Molds, and ...I am forgetting a few. Even Colorado Shooters Supply makes top casting molds but does not offer as much flexibility in high Bc nose choices as the first three..... but very well made moulds!

-Michael Rix

[Gunlaker]

If you are breech seating in that chamber and shooting scheutzen style distances ( 200 yds, meters ) you might find the Buffalo Arms tapered Creedmoor bullet is a good fit. I also shoot a breech seated Brooks paper patched elliptical bullet at that distance and it works well, but most people don't want to mess with that sort of thing :-).

I don't know how well those bullets shoot at greater distances, but I imagine they'd keep up comparably with most designs. Maybe a little less for the Creedmoor.

If I were you ( assuming that freebore and leade angle are the same as the chamber drawing from ssdave on the ASSRA site ), I would ask ssdave what bullet he uses, and what sort of accuracy he is getting and what ranges he shoots.

A good bullet in one chamber is not necessarily a good bullet in another chamber. As an example, lots of people like Dan's Money bullet design. If you go to the Buffalo Arms store you will see about 30 variations on the design. And not one of them is exactly like the first one he designed :-)

Chris.

[THBailey]

167987

Here is my proposed chamber, showing changes to the existing McPherson design. These are changes I conjured up, sort of averaging the advice I received. It does not reflect input from Dave Manson. Dave suggested I send him what I want and he would make it for me. I would appreciate your input and suggestions. Again, this is for a black powder roller. Thanks again, THB.

[Chill Wills]

Thanks for getting back on this. I can see most of the changes but not all are clear. Can it be attached so I can get better resolution?
Anyway - from what I can see you have made good changes.
I am looking to make a new reamer myself. I have a reamer now but I am not as happy with it. You are on the right track.

Did I see correctly you have built into the chamber 0.010". I can not see the data well. 2.130 v 2.140" ?

[THBailey]

168023

Maybe a bit bigger? Click on the photo twice. If still not big enough, the attachment is quite big in the "Gunsmithing Single Shot Rifles" section of the ASSRA page. I did not add to the chamber length, that is a .100 freebore length.

[Chill Wills]

OK, I am not talking about the 0.100" freebore but rather the 0.010" to the case stop. It is not a problem if it is there - only asking if I am reading the numbers correctly as I can not read the image well.

I will try a few more tricks to get a better image including Assra - Long ago I used to be a ASSRA member as well as on their old forum but they got new software and lost me.....and I, them. I still lurk now and then.

[THBailey]

I think I see what you are asking about. .060 rim thickness plus 2.080 for base to case mouth. These are from the pre-existing McPherson drawing.