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View Full Version : Help. Need a 12 round ball load.



bobk
04-28-2008, 02:53 PM
At one point years ago, I read an article in either the Handloader or the Rifle, most likely the former, that gave pressure tested loads with a full diameter round ball for the 12. The Ithaca was .719 at the muzzle, so I ordered a .720 round ball mold from Dixie. They weight about 500 cast from WW, and punch right through some fairly thick sheetmetal. With a 2 1/2 Bushnell Banner mounted, I got 2 - 2 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards. As I recall, the powder used was Hodgdon HS-6, the wad was a Federal 12S3 with the petals cut to 1/4 inch, and a 20 gauge .135 hard card for filler. What I forget is the hull, and the exact powder charge. I even found a coffee can full of the round balls! Can someone with a better memory than mine help an old fella out? I about tore the house apart yesterday looking for that magazine, to no avail. I have the Lyman #3and it has some nice loads. I figure that a .720 WW ball might not weigh much more than a .690 pure lead one. Does anyone remember that load that I half-remember?


Bob K

BAGTIC
05-01-2008, 08:03 PM
My Lyman .735 round ball mould cast a 600 grain ball from WW. Based on that a .720 inch ball should weigh 574. Of course, all wheel weights are not created equal.

You should be able to use 1 3/8 ounce shot load charges but of course will need to adjust column length. I seat my OP wad first and use 'plastic peanut' packing material to fill the excess volume. Just be careful to not overcompress as it has ZERO rebound capacity. Once compressed that is where it stays.

longbow
05-02-2008, 09:02 PM
I've been loading 0.660" in a shotcup, 0.690" both in a shotcup and naked and 0.735". I also got a .715" mould thinking I coul shoot it through my BPS slug barrel with I/C choke - oops! I should have miked first! The choke is 0.711" so I figure a little tight. I'm not going to try it anyway.

The 0.662" do not bad out to 50 yards and the 0.735" does not bad either at around 4" groups. I'm still experimenting as time permits. I find the 0.690" too big for a shotcup (shears petals) and not very accurate naked so not a good choice. Your 0.720" should do okay as it is just over your choke size so should leave the barrel straight and true.

Generally it seems to be accepted that an equal weight of solid slug to shot is a safe substitution and when I don't have a specific recipe I have used that with no problems to date.

I do have some round ball data I will look up for you from both the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook and I have the BPI Slug Reloading Manual which has some round ball loads - not 0.720" but there is published data for 0.690" and 0.715" so that gets you close.

I also have some data for a 600 gr. solid slug for Blue Dot which will be safe with the 0.720" ball as it is lighter and under bore size.

Anyway, I'll try to look the loads up in the next day or two and post them.

Longbow

blysmelter
05-03-2008, 05:22 AM
Generally it seems to be accepted that an equal weight of solid slug to shot is a safe substitution and when I don't have a specific recipe I have used that with no problems to date.

Interesting. Are you saying that if I have a safe load using leadshot of the same weigth as the slug I want to use I can just load using the slug instead of the shot? Will I be even safer if using a load for a sligthly heavier shotload?

bobk
05-04-2008, 12:06 PM
BAGTIC,
I just weighed the 12 gauge balls again. They were cast with a Dixie sprueless mold. With the little nub lef over from the diagonals, they weighed 530+-, miked .7195 - .720. I also measured the 20s I cast yesterday from a LEE mold, .598 and weighed 312 - 315. These were cast from metal I got recently. The LEE data says the balls out of pure lead should be 325 gr. This is sort if confusing. I was figuring on a powder charge for a 3 3/4 1 1/4 to get me started.
Bob K

bobk
05-04-2008, 12:11 PM
Longbow,
I have the Lyman #3, not the BPI. I have two powders that I wanted to try, 800X and HS-6. Lyman lists a decent-appearing load for the 20 RB with 800X, and it is a favorite .45 ACP carbine powder for me.

Bob K

bobk
05-04-2008, 12:16 PM
blysmelter,
That's what I had been thinking. If anything, there should be less barrel friction, even expressed through a shotcup. That shot doesn't get deformed that way sitting in the bag.

Bob K

longbow
05-05-2008, 12:09 AM
bobk:

Sorry, I haven't had time to look the loads up but will try to do it tomorrow. I figured I had better look in here quickly. If I wasn't so tired I would go look them up right now.

blysmelter:

I have been told by several sources, all experienced slug shooters, that substituting a slug for equal weight shot is safe assuming all other components are the same. Minor alterations like cutting off wad petals is acceptable and even the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook has loads with wad petals cut off. Slugs have less barrel friction than shot loads so develop lower pressures.

I have done this myself with no bad results. In fact I have loaded several round ball and home made slugs following equal weight to shot practice. However, all the loading manuals I have say "No Substitutions".

Personally I would have thought a hollow based Foster slug would have pretty high barrel friction but take a look in a loading manual and the slugs tend to have heavier powder charges for a given weight slug than an equivalent weight shot load.

Any other changes are not acceptable: hull change, primer change, wad change, powder change - less powder would be safe but may result in a blooper.

If using a recipe for a heavier shot load with a lighter slug then yes it should be safer but you might run the risk of a blooper load resulting in a stuck slug (barrel obstruction). I have had some slug loads I made up on the light end of the powder charge with slow powder and some did not give a good powder burn - no bloopers but close.

I'll say it again though - no other changes! Just a primer or hull change can raise pressure by several thousand PSI.

Play but play safe!

Hopefully I'll be back tomorrow with those loads.

Longbow

bobk
05-05-2008, 09:40 AM
longbow,
No hurry! I just got four more bullet molds from a friend at work who haunts the auctions locally! I spent yesterday afternoon with the silver stream. Life is good!

I should mention that I am not casting fosters or the big pellets, just round balls, hence my observations regarding pressure. I don't understand why they ever got away from the original "punkin ball" concept. My thoughts are to cast them hard for better penetration, but that's only my personal preference/theory. They can be made to give less group dispersion that drop, so the accuracy is all you can use effectively.
Bob K

longbow
05-05-2008, 08:45 PM
bobk:

Here we go!

I have checked and double checked the load data but if anything looks out of place please check again or let me know.

Precision Rifle Bullets used to produce a solid Keith style slug for 12 ga. - 610 gr. hollow point at about bore size (they say no sabot needed but list 0.720" as diameter?).

Slug = 610 gr. Piledriver
Wad = 4 fiber cards + "a plastic gas seal"
Powder = 36 to 44 grs. Blue Dot
Hull = "all in a new hull"

A little vague and no comment on primers but they list 44 grs. Blue Dot producing 12,359 PSI as the max load. I also have to assume they are using a large capacity straight walled hull.

Any full bore slug lighter should be perfectly safe and I used 36 grs. Blue Dot under a 0.735" ball (586 gr.) in a cylinder bore with pretty good accuracy but incomplete burning. Possibly I need a better gas seal as Blue Dot is listed for lighter slugs.

The Lyman Shotshell Handbook #3 shows several round ball loads for both 0.690" and 0.662" balls- not with HS-6 or 800X though. I have shot both but as mentioned found poor accuracy with 0.690". The 0.662" in a shotcup did pretty well though and of course it would fit through any standard choke, though a full choke would be pushing it and would certainly shear wad petals. Another fellow on this site reports good accuracy with 0.678" ball which is a better fit in a WW AA or any thin petal shotcup.

BPI info:

Slug = 0.690" round ball @ 486 grs.
Hull = Fiocchi lo-base (2 3/4")
Primer = FIO 616
Powder = 27.0 gr. 800X
Wad = LB12
Crimp = roll crimp
Pressure = 9600 PSI
Velocity = 1300 FPS

Slug = 0.690" round ball @ 486 grs.
Hull = Fiocchi lo-base (2 3/4")
Primer = FIO 616
Powder = 26.0 gr. 800X
Wad = HCD24+1/8CORK20
Crimp = roll crimp
Pressure = 9400 PSI
Velocity = 1290 FPS

Slug = 0.715" round ball @ 550 grs.
Hull = Fiocchi lo-base (3")
Primer = FIO 616
Powder = 32.5 gr. 800X
Wad = BW12+BPGS
Crimp = fold crimp
Pressure = 10,800 LUP
Velocity = 1465 FPS

Slug = GRIZZLY @ 549 grs.
Hull = Activ (2 3/4")
Primer = CCI-209
Powder = 29.0 gr. 800X
Wad = BPGS+12 GA. 1/4" CORK + BPGS
Crimp = fold crimp
Pressure = 9700 LUP
Velocity = 1330 FPS

Slug = GRIZZLY @ 549 grs.
Hull = Activ (3")
Primer = CCI-209
Powder = 33.0 gr. 800X
Wad = BW12 + BPGS
Crimp = fold crimp
Pressure = 9900 LUP
Velocity = 1425 FPS

Slug = GRIZZLY @ 549 grs.
Hull = Cheddite (2 3/4")
Primer = FIO-616
Powder = 29.0 gr. 800X
Wad = BPGS+12 GA. 1/4" CORK+ BPGS
Crimp = fold crimp
Pressure = 9000 LUP
Velocity = 1330 FPS

Slug = GRIZZLY @ 549 grs.
Hull = FIOCCHI (2 3/4")
Primer = FIO-616
Powder = 29.0 gr. 800X
Wad = BPGS+12 GA. 1/4 + BPGS
Crimp = fold crimp
Pressure = 9600 LUP
Velocity = 1330 FPS

Also, "Reloading For Shotgunners" list several 1 oz. slug loads with HS-6 but I don't find any others. These loads should work well with a 0.662" ball - if you want the data let me know.

Please note that there are two 3" loads listed above - I bolded the 3" to make it obvious.

I also just found some more loads for the BPI Thunderbolt slug at 1 3/8 oz . and using both HS-6 and 800x. If you want the data I will post separately or PM you as this is getting long. This is about the right weight for your 0.720" RB but of course the wad column would have to be adjusted.

I agree - what is wrong with the round ball! I am thinking I may make or see if I can buy a rifled choke tube at around 1:100 twist to make a sort of modern Paradox gun for full bore round ball use. Modern rifled barrels have way too fast a twist for round ball.

The powder that has been recommended to me for virtually all slug shooting is IMR 4756. Unfortunately I have so ar been unable to buy any. My access is very limited and I have to drive to the States to buy powder as there is little if any available within a 3 hour drive in Canada. I am about 45 minutes from the border though so I drive to Waneta or Colville (sometimes Spokane) but slection is still limited so I have been using mainly Blue Dot.

I hope this helps.

Longbow

bobk
05-11-2008, 09:30 PM
longbow,
Thank you for all that work! That should be more than enough for me to work with!
Right now I have been playing with the 20, but some of the results are generally applicable. As a control, I picked up some Rem-Peters 20 1/2 oz. slugs, supposed to be 1900fps. Then, I used some old Lyman data for a .570 ball, and I fudged up some data for my full-dia hard cast, which weighs 315, halfway between the .570 pure lead and the 340 gr slug they offer. I loaded the 280 gr. .570 ball to 1650, and the .600 315 gr to 1500. I proceeded to shoot all of this into dry newspaper. Dry papers are more consistent than wet papers that are sometimes frozen.
The tests were not truly the same, as I shot the factory slug load into a half gallon milk jug filled with water, with the newspapers behind. The penetration was only 4 inches, and the slug was absolutely mangled! I about gave up right there. No way I was going to shoot such a fragile bullet at a deer. But I already had the mold ordered, so I pressed on. Good thing I did.
The first load I used was with the hard cast. I dragged out an old metal real estate sign that I shot with the 12 all those years ago. I put it in front of a stack of dry hardwood. I stepped back far enough that splashback shouldn't be a problem, and fired. I need not have worried. The shot zipped through the metal, and 4" endwise into the hard wood. OK, time to try the newspapers. I fired it into the dry newspapers, and it went through the 8" stack, made a huge hole, and went far enough into the bank behind that I gave up digging for it. I was quite happy.
Due to the soft nature of the Hornady .570 pure lead ball, I did not try it against the metal sign. I did shoot the newspapers. It just made it through the 8" stack. Now this was a 280 gr. load 35 gr. lighter than the hardball load, albeit at 150 fps faster. The recoil was noticeably sharper. I may have discovered a reason for this. The ball was very deformed, and it had some of the fiber wadding stuck fast to the base, which was FLAT!
Actually, it looked as if the ball might have started to flow back around the 28 gauge wad.
Not having the other ball to compare it with, I did another test. I loaded up another hardball, with 4756 (which I am growing to like). I shot it at close range endwise into another piece of Oak. It penetrated 3 1/2 inches. The nose was eroded by passage through the hard wood fibers, but it only lost maybe 13 gr. The base of the bullet was not deformed at all.
This brings me to my tentative conclusion: The soft lead ball was deforming INSIDE THE BORE! That is the only way I can see the ball ending up with a flat base. This does two things, neither of them good. First, it probably increases pressure due to more drag of the ball against the barrel, and secondly, it deforms the ball into an even worse ballistic shape. I have been more or less assuming that the ball was passing through the air looking pretty much like I had last seen it, when I loaded it, and that any deformation took place as a result of the terminal impact. Apparently that is not even close to being true. And, the ballistics that we are assuming based upon that virginal shape are so much hogwash. The hard round ball, as ballistically inefficient as it is, is better that the misshapen hunk that the soft lead ball becomes, before it even leaves the barrel.
I kinda wondered about this, when I was shooting the Buffalo Bullets sabots out of my inline. The pure lead HPBT ends up looking more like a bevel base, upon recovery from a soft-enough media. I didn't think about it much at the time, but there isn't enough lead pushing on that base for inertia to cause the deformation; it has to be happening during the passage down the barrel. I'm going to have to think about the implications of this, as applied to the rest of my cast bullet shooting. It may be that ACWW with a GC and a drilled hollowpoint, or a split nose, may be a more consistent bullet in terms of terminal performance at varying ranges.
Bob K