Gun and loads for a petite shooter

[Thumbcocker]

A co-worker of mine has decided to take the Illinois CCW class just to be familiar with firearms and safety. She is 5' tall in shoes and maybe 100 pounds soaking wet. I have taken her to the range once and she did very well with my stainless kit gun. I am very partial to the kid because she is learning a lot and is well on her way to becoming an excellent prosecutor. I have been mentoring her in criminal law and prosecution. She is a very quick study. I am not a firearms instructor so I don't want to cause her to learn bad habits.

The course is put on by 2 retired ISP range officers and is the same one Mrs. Thumbcocker and I took. I have great respect for the instructors and their skills. It was an excellent course. The one thing I have some issue with is that the instructors had a strong bias in favor of Glocks of all kind. Mrs. Thumbcocker and I were the only ones in our class shooting revolvers.

I have agreed to supply a firearm and ammunition for the kid to use in her course. She still has student loans to pay on so ammo cost was a factor for her. What I am thinking of supplying is a Smith model 30-1 with .32 long wadcutters. No levers or anything to manipulate, little recoil, no rounds hiding in the chamber and probably a good fit in her small hands. The instructors have supplied guns for students in the past but they are Ruger Standard model .22's. Good guns but possibly a little heavy for her. I want to supply a gun that will let the kid have a positive experience. I have various semi autos including a Walther PP .22 with stubborn magazine (heavy springs) and a Ruger LC9s but feel a revolver is better for now The course also includes ball and dummy drills and some particle advice. Again these are very skilled instructors. Just kind of biased toward Glocks.

I really want the kid to be able to concentrate on learning and shooting well; there is some stress involved with the noise and other shooters on the line and she is pretty much a rookie.

I would appreciate any input or advice. I don't want to step on the instructors toes I just want the kid to have a positive experience.

[Paul_R]

My wife is a little gal and a S&W 642 is perfect for her. I'm a big fan of revolvers myself. If I'm gearing up to go into combat it's semi autos and lots of mags but nothing beats the simplicity, reliability, and inherent safety of a revolver.

[Petrol & Powder]

Thumbcocker - Kudos for assisting that young lady in her profession and personal safety.


I've instructed a number of new shooters, many of whom were petite women. They can be surprisingly quick students !

I've found that women often grasp the techniques well but have difficulty holding a handgun out at arms length due to a lack of upper body strength. The trick is to find that balance between weight, recoil, accuracy, grip size and trigger pull weight :-o !!!!! Nothing to it ......All jokes aside, holding 2+ pounds out at the full extension of one's arms is tiring for some women of small size. I always remind them to pull the gun in close to their chest if their arms get weak. There's no need to keep the gun out there during a long course of fire as long as they maintain safe range discipline (muzzle down range)

I agree with your ideas on a 32 caliber revolver but in all likelihood, a tapered barrel S&W model 15 with wadcutters would probably work just as well. If .22 pistols are OK, the Ruger MKII with the tapered barrel would also work. I agree the bull barrel models are generally too heavy for that application.

[Petrol & Powder]

I also COMPLETELY agree that you want to work towards a positive experience. No super loud, hard recoiling magnum rounds, No complicated manual of arms and gun that is simple and "fits" the shooter.

I often see others introduce females to shooting and mistakenly correlate small woman to tiny guns. Nothing is more difficult and frustrating for new shooters than to try to get on the paper with some crappy little mouse gun with 2.5" sight radius, tiny sights, no real grip and a horrible trigger.
You don't want to put a heavy gun in their hands if they can't comfortably hold it in a proper stance but tiny guns are hard to shoot; they are particularly difficult for new shooters.

A little distance between the sights, good sights, good trigger and grips that fit, go a long way to achieving success.

[big bore 99]

I agree with the quality revolver idea. A .22 would be good to train initially on and move to a .38 special with shorts (.38 new police or .38 S&W).

[country gent]

FIt of the handgun will be the most important aspect, if the gun doesnt fit well even light recoiling rounds will become tiring and unfomfortable. A lot of smaller shooters are very comfotable with a J frame and slightly larger grips. I had a j-frame with 3" barrel once that was very accurate easy to shoot and liked by alot that tried it. Next up is weight to heavy and it tires quickly to light and recoil becomes an issue. Trigger reach and pull weight can become an issue. Have her buyy a grip excersiser and work with it. Helps alot if they mandate double action firing. Sights fixed sights can be small and hard to see at times a decent adjustable sight and front wide enough to easily be picked up helps alot. A little work in the living room on saftey, loading unloading, handling, sight picture, positions, and trigger pull ( dry fire can help alot. Get her used to the firearm and whats expected of her. Then a couple trips to the range to acclimate her there 1st trip during a slower time to get her used to it and procedures, 2 nd trip during a busier time to get her used to the added firing, talking and distractions. The big thing is to get her comfortable with whats shes doing and surroundings.

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll second the dry fire exercise and work with the mechanics of an unloaded gun.

I think a lot of people are hesitant to train with unloaded guns but there's a lot of valuable training in learning the manual of arms and dry fire in your living room. Safety is essential and the user must be certain that the gun is empty and no ammunition is available.

[Groo]

Groo here
I am thinking you are a reloader , if so a 32 or 38 with fwc light loads will be fine.
As others have said, fit is most important of all.
When my nieces got there CCW I found #2 SP101 3in revolvers to gift to them.[ they both shoot mags in them now!!!]
The grips fit, the sights are large and the 3in barrel easy to shoot with light 38's.
The 5shot 3in revolver just seems to fit small people very well.

[9.3X62AL]

Thumbcocker--

Kudoes all around for helping this lady out, AND for the choice of the S&W Model 30-1 as a training arm. It is "a lot more cartridge" than the 22 LR from a handgun, and its long years of popularity say volumes about its utility. Not all shooters want or can manage a 357 Magnum, just one of several idiot assumptions being made these days by the armsmakers servicing this venue/hobby field.

[ReloaderFred]

Teach her the mechanics of whatever pistol she's going to use for the course before she goes. That way, she can concentrate on accuracy, rather than being confused by all the new things she has to deal with during the class itself.

I teach in handgun safety classes, and I'm a former full time range master for the department I retired from. New shooters are sometimes overwhelmed when they have to concentrate on learning all the manipulation of the handgun, which is completely foreign to them, and at the same time try to put rounds on target. By eliminating one frustrating aspect before the class, she can then just work on the grip, sight picture and trigger squeeze (trigger press to those under 50 years of age, I guess).

I've started a lot of students with a .22, but I've also started a lot of them with a .38 Special, using light Cowboy loads. The 105 gr. bullet over a light load of powder for about 700 fps is ideal for this. They get the feel for the .38, but the recoil of just a bit more than a .22.

I really don't like it when instructors try to push one gun over another. A good instructor shouldn't let his/her bias interfere with teaching a new student how to shoot. It creates doubt in the minds of the students who are just trying to learn something completely new to them. "Did I pick the wrong kind of gun?" That question should never enter their minds, unless of course they really did....

I've had female students with .22's, all the way up to .44 Magnums. The .44 Magnum student was a rifle shooter and avid hunter, but had no experience at all with handguns, but she wanted to take a black bear with a revolver, so she took our class. She was also an excellent student and deadly with her Super Blackhawk. And she was only about 5'1" tall, but one determined little gal.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[FergusonTO35]

Glock 42 all the way. As easy to operate as a revolver and very mild recoil, even less than .38 Special wadcutters.

[EMC45]

I was gonna say a Model 30 or 31. Accurate, mild recoil, ease of operation. She should do well with it.

[dubber123]

I am assuming thumb cocking will be allowed, if not, a J frame can be tough to master in double action. It is too bad she doesn't have more time to train. A friend of mine is 5' even, 98 pounds, and shoots a 4" .45 auto well enough to best the vast majority of the men at our local plates matches.

If thumb cocking is allowed, the J frame would do well, if not, I vote K frame S&W with light loads.

Good luck to her :)

[rking22]

Agree with most all above advice. I took the exact same approach when my daughter wanted her CCW. My daughter fits the discription, 5'3 maybe 100lbs soakin wet. She shoots a M36 with mid range wadcutters. She did her class with my 31-1 4inch 32SWL due to the 59 round qualification. She was comfortable with the manual of arms and did the full 50 in double action. The instructor suggested to her she could shoot single action so that is OK. She told him "Daddy asked me to qualify DA", and she did. The reason she didn't use her snubby was the 50 rounds, recoil is cumulative.
Unless the young lady is "mechanically" minded, and has a chance to become comfortable with the manual of arms with an auto, I would not go there. Dud in a revolver, pull the trigger again. No slide to pull, no magazine, no limp wrist possiabilities to deal with. Keep it simple untill she wants to move along. I am perfectly content and proficient with 1911s and CZ75s. Put under stress I just don't want all the stuff, I carry a M36 bobbed or a Colt Cobra myself.

[Dan Cash]

.32 Smith, good choice. Good double and single action, small frame and easy to operate. The young woman is lucky.

[DougGuy]

What about a 2" S&W airweight with +P ammo for the final choice, but while learning, use the same gun and train with UMC box ammo. This is enough gun to be serious carry gun for a petite female but not too big. The most common problem with the smaller females is finding a way to get them to carry enough caliber to be an effective man stopper.

[Mk42gunner]

As long as the grips fit her hand, and hopefully the barrel is 3 or 4" (easier to shoot) I see no problem with her using the 30-1 to learn with.

Robert

[contender1]

First,,, KUDOS for you helping this young lady AND doing a lot of the right kind of things.
My wife is one of the top 10 female instructors in the country for the NRA Women On Target program. For over 15 years now,,, we've taught hundreds of ladies to shoot,,, with our introduction clinics.

There is a LOT of good info above.

Let me add a few things.
If at all possible,,, get her in a ladies only class. It does make a difference. ESPECIALLY a class run by a woman. Women think, act & respond differently than men, and again when men are present that they know. If at all possible,,, she needs to not have any familiar male presence around her as she gets initial training. Even subconsciously she will be seeking the approval of someone she knows & trusts.
Next,,, a female instructor can relate things to other ladies that no man can do properly or completely comfortably for both.

Selection of firearms. She needs to start smaller in CALIBER,,, and then work up as she learns the basics. This is true of anybody,,, but especially the ladies. The choice of a revolver over any semi-auto for her actual SD firearm is an excellent suggestion. Why? Easier to operate, and less things to go wrong. Plus,, a revolver can be used in either hand, one handed, inside a purse or pocket repeatedly, w/o magazines, mag releases, slides to operate or jam in a pocket etc.
We teach that unless a person, (anyone) is willing to spend enough time to become motor skill memory friendly with a firearm they need the simplest design for SD. Just like the motions of driving a car,,, you need to be able to operate it WITHOUT thinking of each action necessary if at all possible. A DA revolver is simple,,, just pull, put the finger on the trigger, and pull. Left or right handed, upside down, with your pinky etc. It will work. A semi-auto may need the slide racked, the magazine release may be accidentally pushed, the safety may not be disengaged, (especially if using the off hand,) they can jam inside a pocket or purse, & other such maladies.
Fit & comfort. Each person has a different hand size & feel when grasping a handgun. Let HER decide what works for her. If she likes a certain firearm,,, then try different grips. In our classes,,, I have 4 guns, identical except for the grips. I let the ladies choose which one they like the best. I let them shoot 2 guns, then decide which one they like. I set it aside. I let them shoot the other 2, and let them decide which one is best. Then, I let them shoot the two top ones & let them choose between them. Viola!

As they move up from a 22 LR to other calibers,, a 32 is fine then on to 38 spl. Generally we suggest a 357 mag firearm,,, loaded with light 38 spls as they get into those. We stress that the smaller & lighter the gun,,, the more felt recoil there will be. That the heavier the gun, the less felt recoil but harder to carry.

Lastly,,, carry options. A purse is off body,,, and works in some cases. But on the body is best. And our ladies have found a company called UnderTech/Undercover offers the best way to carry comfortably. Their "underwear" is excellent.

There is a lot more I could share,,, but you appear to be on the right track. I hope I've added a bit more to this discussion.

[Wayne Smith]

Only thing I can add is to make sure the grip fits her hands. Our best friends (wife) is a professional musician, plays the viola. She isn't a big woman but has large, strong hands. She wants a large grip on a gun.

[tdoyka]

i agree with you. but i think a 38 spl is better.

[Greg S]

For a begining shooter look at a use S&W model 10HB, 13, 64 or 65. The weight will soak up recoil, use 38 special ammo and with the option of a 13/65, 357 Mag. Its a mid frame so grips can go small to large ect. Don't pigeon hole her into something. If she doesn't like the above it is easy to move on or add to the collection. Besides, nothing beats a 65 with alittle love (sights you can see, 3" barrel, action job and a hammer bob i.e. check out heirloom precision wheel guns) for CCW.

I picked up a 642 for a screaming deal once. Hadn't even shot it and my sister mentioned wanting to get a gun. Ended up passing it to her as a Bday gift the next day (real bad with remembering bdays) which solved two birds with one stone until I shot it. Pretty rude for an intruductory pistol. Ended up loaning her a 4" M10HB to her for a CCW class with qualification. Expensive birthday but well worth it for piece of mind for a single female family member. Yup, lost the M10HB too which is part of her collection now to include a 629dx, a trp and a 10mm longslide.

An indoor range with rental guns is your friend. Let her find something to fit HER, not what you imagine. Had a 4'10" 92-94 lb spinner at one time who was increadibly proficient with my 1911s. She was real confident with a government, didn't care for the officer size. Settled on a Cmdr with some mods. She still shoots it today, almost 30 years later. Nothing wrong with a 200gr 45 acp HP.

[Rick Hodges]

Back "in the day" we had no trouble teaching female officers to shoot with Model 10 and Model 66 S&W's with 38 special wadcutters....in fact that is how the men were trained also. Recoil and report are mild, the rounds are accurate and both can be used with serious ammunition when the new shooters are ready.

[Thumbcocker]

I am going with what the Thumbcocker armory has in inventory. She has said she may want her own gun later and that is a whole different area and mindset. What I want to do is get her through the course with a gun she can handle well. We have a pin barrel M19 4" that is Mrs. Thumbcocker's pet that may available if my co-worker swears on her first bor n child to take care of it. She has exactly one prior shooting session under her belt so is pretty much a novice. What she ultimately winds up with may be totally different after she goes through the course.

[FergusonTO35]

A .32 revolver is an excellent choice, as long as the shooter doesn't mind paying more than .50 cents a round for practice ammo which is only available online or in well stocked gun shops. Additionally, quality .32 revolvers are getting pricey. As this is a new shooter she will need alot of practice and I think all of the .32 cartridges are cost prohibitive unless she really has money to burn. Even if she can afford it, wouldn't that money be better spent on a .22 understudy pistol for getting a firm grasp on shooting fundamentals, then move on to a centerfire? Don't get me wrong, I love my .32's and would love to see them come back in a big way. I got out of all of them except the .32 Auto because I just couldn't justify the time and money spent on them, even being a reloader and bullet caster.

If I was to carry a .32 revolver it would be a Charter Arms Undercover .32 S&W Long. It holds six shots, you can still buy a nice one for less than $300.00 and, being built on a frame originally chambered in .38 Special, it will last a very long time. Charters are very easy to repair also, I've successfully resuscitated a few of them.

[Wayne Smith]

I think from his post that Thumbcocker is planning to load for her. That solves the ammo problem.

[9.3X62AL]

I almost hate to write what follows, but I do strive to live in the real world. In that real world, Magnum Mania has relegated the 32 S&W Long caliber to the dubious status of "enthusiast caliber" with overtones of obsolescence. That is a deep and comprehensive shame, because the caliber has a DEFINITE place as a field/small game/target chambering in recreational venues and as a marginal but easily-mastered defensive choice for new or inexperienced shooters that is FAR BETTER than 22 LR.

I have looked with varying focus for a post-war S&W Model 30 or Model 31 with 4" barrel in this caliber for several years. The search is complicated by California's idiot-wind firearms laws that narrow my choices markedly, and serve as a disincentive to sellers to ship their wares to an FFL in this Worker's Paradise. The totality of circumstances weighs heavily in favor of just committing to a Ruger SP-101 in 327 Federal--getting a lot of Starline brass of that caliber--and loading RCBS 32-98-SWC to 900-950 FPS to simulate "32 S&W Long +P" (the ultimate objective). I already do this with most of my 32 H&R Mag cases, so it isn't some new horizon. I just don't want to see 1K+ 32 SWL cases languish unfired in the ammo locker. FWIW, I loathe firing short cases in long revolver chambers--it makes a mess. Far less reasonable options are 1) an original S&W Model 16 or 2) a Walther GSP-C for 32 wadcutters. Both are ridiculously over-priced. I see an SP-101 in my future.

[35remington]

I just purchased a 40 Shield myself, and in a conversation related by a salesman at the store where I purchased my Shield, he told of a interaction with a prospective female customer who was not an enthusiast and he suggested that a revolver might be more appropriate to her skill and strength level.

She then went to customer service and complained he was sexist because he did not recommend an automatic more enthusiastically!

Here is the downside with the small autos.....when they are shrunk, to some degree reliability shrinks as well. Not saying they necessarily will be more of a jam o matic, just that they're more likely to. Complacency in the reliability of one's arm is always misplaced, and proactive steps to address any failures must be practiced.

Therefore, the ability to recognize a malfunction and execute a quick jam clearing remedy is paramount.

With a great many of the small autos, and with the women I've taught, they struggle to be able to fully rack the slide if the gun is not locked open by the magazine, and many simply cannot load their own magazines to anywhere near full capacity. Many cannot load more than a few rounds. The second criticism is less operative than the first if spare magazines are carried but are an impediment to range practice by oneself unless a stronger individual is on hand to load the magazines. Less practice because you don't have a stronger person in tow means less skill with the arm in question.

Small autos need strong springs in their operating drill to function correctly, and these strong springs prevent effective manipulation of the pistol by many women should something go wrong. This pertains to the "adequate" calibers like 9-40-45 more so than the 380's and 32's, but is worth mentioning to the women who insist on small adequately powerful autoloaders.

Can the women handle a gun in a malfunction drill? Can they rack the slide fully to the rear if the gun malfs, as they may have to do? Before prescribing a certain pistol type, be sure to check their abilities in this regard.

[Thumbcocker]

To clarify I am loaning her the revolver and ammo for the course. I have Hornaday swaged HBWC's and virgin Starline brass. Lyman manual lists 2.0 of 231 as an accuracy load at around 650 fps. What she decides on for a personal firearm is reserved for a later date.

[EMC45]

I almost hate to write what follows, but I do strive to live in the real world. In that real world, Magnum Mania has relegated the 32 S&W Long caliber to the dubious status of "enthusiast caliber" with overtones of obsolescence. That is a deep and comprehensive shame, because the caliber has a DEFINITE place as a field/small game/target chambering in recreational venues and as a marginal but easily-mastered defensive choice for new or inexperienced shooters that is FAR BETTER than 22 LR.

I have looked with varying focus for a post-war S&W Model 30 or Model 31 with 4" barrel in this caliber for several years. The search is complicated by California's idiot-wind firearms laws that narrow my choices markedly, and serve as a disincentive to sellers to ship their wares to an FFL in this Worker's Paradise. The totality of circumstances weighs heavily in favor of just committing to a Ruger SP-101 in 327 Federal--getting a lot of Starline brass of that caliber--and loading RCBS 32-98-SWC to 900-950 FPS to simulate "32 S&W Long +P" (the ultimate objective). I already do this with most of my 32 H&R Mag cases, so it isn't some new horizon. I just don't want to see 1K+ 32 SWL cases languish unfired in the ammo locker. FWIW, I loathe firing short cases in long revolver chambers--it makes a mess. Far less reasonable options are 1) an original S&W Model 16 or 2) a Walther GSP-C for 32 wadcutters. Both are ridiculously over-priced. I see an SP-101 in my future.


I have a pre Model 30 3in., a Model 30 3in. and a Model 31 snub. I think the way you do about this caliber. It is definitely capable of defensive use, not to mention the other uses you stated with small game and such. It is most definitely relegated to "enthusiast" or "weird gun nut" status, which is a shame, for there are many of these on the used market, but almost 40 dollars a box of ammo is prohibitive to say the least. I was at a point where all I shot was .32 S&W-L. That was it. I found myself slipping into some kind of fiendish realm of small caliber nirvana that was perfectly fine with me. Easy on powder and lead. When I finally did pick the K frames back up they felt like I was holding a Model 29 .44 Magnum. Ridiculous.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Thumbcocker: I wish I'd seen this thread a little sooner so I could have input some of my rational to this conversation before you were set on a course of action. I hope you will read and understand what I'm saying here.

There is a very good reason why so many of those instructors are pushing Glocks. In the real world 60% of the Police Agencies in the World use Glocks. Not to mention the vast number of Military users.

The reason is simple. Glocks are the simplest Pistol to teach and learn how to use there is. Period.

You can only do 3 things to a Glock, Insert Mag, Rack Slide, and Pull Trigger. This removes many of the barriers to proficiency that are present with other types of guns.

These functions are all part of the Manual of Arms for most Semi Auto Pistols, however others usually add more functions which must be mastered and only complicate matters when you are trying to learn a lot of things at once.

If she is going to carry a Revolver for her CCW then by all means get her one. But if it is a 2" Snubby she can pretty much forget about actually hitting anything with it beyond 15 feet. Also the Long Trigger Pull will hamper her progression. Also bringing a S&W 642 or insert actual gun here _____ ,,, to a gun fight,,, where everybody else has 3 times the ammo on board is not a prudent course of action unless you are really good. Even then you are at a major disadvantage.

If she trains from the beginning with a Glock 17 or 19 she will become a better shooter and learn proper gun manipulation from the start which can be translated to other firearms including Revolvers. Things like the Proper Grip, Stance, Five Points of the Draw, and all of the other things that are considered "Basics," need to be taught with a Common Platform by instructors who do this stuff for a living and are well versed in handling every kind of person.

She needs to know how to shoot and actually be proficient well before she goes to a CCW class otherwise a false sense of security might just get her killed.

She needs to understand the Combat Mindset and have lines drawn in the sand as to when to act with respect to her Moral Code.

She also needs to be willing to kill someone. Because if she isn't, there is no need for her to carry a gun. A Taser or Pepper Spray may be more what she needs.

I go to Front Sight in Nevada for my training. I have seen literally hundreds of Women who didn't even know which end of the gun the boolits come out of on Day one, progress to become good shooters in as little as 4 days using Rented Glocks. They usually come back for more training with their own Glocks.

9mm ammo is also the cheapest Centerfire Pistol Ammo there is, and the recoil is easily mastered.

I have heard the weak/small hand excuse hundreds of times. And all that was missing is the proper technique. When taught correctly and drilled under supervision the student responds in the anticipated manner. I have seen this hundreds of times not just once.

Front Sight runs 80,000 people a year thru their courses. A goodly portion of those people are newbies and Women,,, with small hands!

If she intends to be a Prosecutor, she needs to be much more proficient with a gun than just passing a CCW class. When she would most likely need it, would be against a person whom she had had dealings with in court and probably not being too happy with her. As such, anything less than a Deliberate Presentation and Accurate Shots Fired will not benefit her. She will be the victim! And you will blame yourself.

I would highly recommend that you rethink your good intentions and point her to an accredited shooting school where she can be taught the whole package before she gets her CCW and starts carrying a gun she has no business carrying.

If you wanted to help you could pay for that instead of reloading ammo for her. She'd be a lot better off.

I hope you take this post as constructive input and not an attack on your intentions. I know your heart is in the right place.

Randy

[FergusonTO35]

I agree with 9.3x62 wholeheartedly. The .32 revolver is a useful tool but the industry and magnum/high capacity obsessed shooters refuse to support it.

[bruce drake]

I've seen BIG men killed with a 25ACP cheap, potmetal Davis bellygun and I've small Soldiers shrug off being shot by an Iraqi insurgent with a .357 Magnum. Its about bullet placement and proper training. I think Thumbcocker is helping the new shooter gain the confidence in her shooting ability in the right way. Personally, I taught my city-born wife first with a 22LR pistol and then let her shoot my pistols in 7.62x25, 9mm, 38 Super, .400 Corbon and 45ACP pistols as well both a 38spl and 357 Magnum revolver before she told me she preferred the 9mm Luger FEG HiPower for her personnel shooting. But the key was that she was able try out various calibers before she choose the one she was comfortable with.

[9.3X62AL]

We tend as enthusiasts to approach this subject with a lot more intensity than do most potential new shooters. We MUST keep in mind the bewildering nature of all the possible choices facing someone in a new shooter's position, let alone all of the "expert" advice they are likely to be besieged with. Thumbcocker's "baby steps" approach is a wise one, and once skill is developed and interest is cultivated Bruce Drake's range of choice-making can be introduced. New shooters--esp. younger female ones--see the world through very different eyes than most of us posting on this board or even in this thread. Two ladies in their late 20s I have intro'ed to defensive shooting--my step-daughters--both arrived at W.R. Buchanan's same conclusion with Glock 19 and 23 respectively. Make haste slowly, in other words.

[Petrol & Powder]

We tend as enthusiasts to approach this subject with a lot more intensity than do most potential new shooters. We MUST keep in mind the bewildering nature of all the possible choices facing someone in a new shooter's position, let alone all of the "expert" advice they are likely to be besieged with. Thumbcocker's "baby steps" approach is a wise one, and once skill is developed and interest is cultivated Bruce Drake's range of choice-making can be introduced. New shooters--esp. younger female ones--see the world through very different eyes than most of us posting on this board or even in this thread. Two ladies in their late 20s I have intro'ed to defensive shooting--my step-daughters--both arrived at W.R. Buchanan's same conclusion with Glock 19 and 23 respectively. Make haste slowly, in other words.

We DO approach this topic with far more intensity than most of our students.
Those new shooters get a barrage of "advice", most of which is very suspect at best. We must defend against that with a solid foundation of instruction. Keep it simple and keep it pertinent.
Those new shooters may move onto different guns later but those early days of shooting are critical.

I completely agree with Al.

I've been down this path with women that where brand new shooters, several of them that were petite. Baby steps is the way to go.

I caught that the OP is loaning and gun and supplying the ammo for that gun in his original post but he then confirmed that in a later post. That model 30 probably isn't going to be that lady's ultimate carry gun; it's just a starting point and I think it's an excellent starting point.

[Blackwater]

I'm with Al on this matter. My DIL has very petite hands and simply cannot reach the trigger comfortably on some revolvers. The Khar autos have fairly short trigger reaches, and finding a good gun with the right trigger reach will go FAR in ALLOWING a new shooter to shoot well right out of the gate. A gun that just FEELS comfortable in their hands will make a lot more difference to them than this or that or the other "feature" that may or may not be useful to a new shooter IF the trigger reach isn't right for them.

You have to remember that they're going to naturally shoot better with a gun that fits their hand, and in particular, their trigger reach (helps them achieve a smooth and consistent trigger pull), and if they ever HAVE to shoot, they're going to react very "naturally," and the more naturally the gun fits them, regardless of caliber, the better they're going to be able to extricate themselves from a bad situation. Only HITS count, and a hit with a .25 ACP beats a miss with a .44 magnum!

A friend of mine played in a little country band, and was on his way home at about 3:00 a.m. once, and rode up on a big black guy laying in the road on his back, next to his car with the door open. Naturally, being a country boy, he stopped to render aid if needed, and investigate. When he got out of his car, the guy jumped up and said, "Give me all your money!" This wasn't the BG's day! My friend is one of the toughest men and fastest and most accurate shots I've ever known - acually pretty phenomenal - but all he had on him at the time (he was only about 13 at the time) was a little .25 ACP in his shirt pocket. He took it out as the BG walked toward him with a menacing look, and fired 3 shots in his chest. The guy just looked at him, and got a REALLY "mad" look on his face. My buddy, always a quick thinker, lowered his aim and shot the approaching BG in the knee cap. The BG fell down screaming and hollering and cursing, and my buddy got back in his car and left the BG in the road squalling, and never looked back. I guess it was a bad night to be mugging folks on the highway.

Small guns CAN do a good job IF we're able to think quickly and effectively and execute a plan that lies within the scope and capabilities of any given gun. I'd never recommend a .25 ACP for self defense, but the above story is one of many that illustrate how even the lowly .25 can and has stopped some really bad situations. My buddy also had a knife, and is particularly good with it. He kind'a HAD to be in some of his earlier years. He started doing everything at a very early age, like shooting, playing guitar (still does), etc., and some of the older guys didn't like the attention he got from his precotiousness, so he wound up having to fight a lot of guys, often they were drunk, and they had a tendency to draw knives when they couldn't get the best of him. Nothing teaches a man as well as sheer necessity! It was fashionable back then to cut each other up, without stabbing to kill. Mostly, the BG's just wanted to "leave a mark" on their victims for posterity - something to point to and boast about, I guess? But HAVING to learn sure lights a fire under a person, for SURE!

Motivation is at least 80% of results, too, so if you can get them to imagine various perilous situations DURING practice, it helps train the mind so that they may be less likely to freeze up if the real thing ever happens to them. Little things like this in "training" can make a huge difference, and training the mind to act/react instead of standing in disbelief that a bad situation is actually confronting them, will be a great asset if they ever need to use their gun. And that can matter HUGELY!

[W.R.Buchanan]

TC's original post states that this person has no firearms experience whatsoever?

I reiterate my previous thoughts on trying to learn how to shoot in a CCW class. Those classes are intended to inform existing shooters about the ramifications of carrying a gun and actually shooting someone, not Basic Firearms Training..

Trying to learn how to shoot is a much more complicated process and is more of a Stand Alone situation.

After she has been to a shooting school,,,, Then she could go to a CCW class and I would feel completely comfortable standing next to her on the firing line. I might add that not only is there her safety, but the safety of bystanders to consider here.

Giving a CCW Permit to a person who is only familiar with firearms in the most basic sense is not anything I or IMHO any knowledgeable shooter should subscribe to. You are essentially putting a completely inexperienced person out on the street with a gun that they aren't really equipped to use effectively and will probably become victim of.

As I stated above I have direct experience with this situation.

My Best Friend moved from CA to CO and Immediately upon arrival decided to get his CCW. He took the test which is so easy virtually anyone can pass it, and then started carrying his CZ82,,, occasionally at church. I recommended that he keep it that way as carrying everyday in his travels would expose him to unnecessary danger as he isn't really any good with the gun.

Mind you My friend has been shooting his entire life, but has never been to a shooting school even though I gave him a free pass to Front Sight which he has never used. He has not the slightest idea of how to present a pistol from a holster, and if he did, he couldn't hit the side of a barn with it.

I recently went to visit him and we primarily talked guns and I did my best to at least broach the subjects of Presentation, and Shooting someone. He listened, but still has not sought out any kind of meaningful training. Knowing him as I do he probably never will.

I recommended repeatedly that he keep his gun in the car and not on him. He is not equipped in any way to deal with an active shooter situation.

Does my stance on this subject not make sense?

I don't want Incompetent People running around with guns any more than I want Criminals with guns.

By Contrast My Brother Dan who is a Captain on Etihad Airlines out of Abu Dhabi and 54 years old was raised in my fathers second family by his liberal wife, who's father "accidentally" killed himself while "Cleaning his .22 Rifle!"(I don't know how you accidentally do this?) He has limited firearms experience.

He came to me before Christmas and stated he wanted to get brought up to speed on Defensive Shooting as he sees the increased likelihood of needing those skills in the near future. He asked my recommendation on which ARs to buy and I steered him to Ruger AR 556's and he bought two.

He also asked about Pistols and I recommended Glock 17's. His wife instead bought a Beretta 92 because she had shot one while in the Air Force. She now wants a Glock as the grip on the Beretta is too big and it is too complicated to operate. I will steer them to J&G Sales who always has used G17's for sale for half the price of new ones.

He was here last Sunday and I spent the entire day educating him on use of the two Ruger AR's he bought for him and his wife. He had had Military training but had not shot one for 25 years so I ran dry fire and live fire drills on him for several hours at the range. He can now competently operate an AR, which was my goal. I taught him the basic things needed to operate the Platform, and talked about the necessity of having your Moral Code defined and the points at which you will react clearly set.

Also I gave him and his family, memberships to Front Sight and him his wife and two kids will be going later this year. But he will be studying books I gave him on the subject and practicing at a range in FL before he goes. They have Red Guns to practice at home with as well.

She has already started her CCW class and stated to me how she wishes she had had more training before starting the class. In her case she is getting more training from a local instructor while she is in the CCW Class. She and the whole family actually enjoy shooting, so I am confident they will become competent firearms owners and users. Mainly because they are going to Front Sight!

Once again not disparaging the OP but offering up more ideas on how to advance this persons skills. This also applies to anyone else reading this thread.

Randy

[wadcutter]

I see an SP-101 in my future.

The SP-101 in 327 fed mag seems like a great choice. You can start off with 32 S&W and step up the 327 mag, which I gather makes for quite a flame thrower with a 2" barrel.

I will say that anyone training a new shooter would be wise to offer more than one option. Both of my step daughters are similar in size and temperament. One took to revolvers and the other to automatics. Don't try too hard to guess what she'll like.

[wadcutter]

The reason is simple. Glocks are the simplest Pistol to teach and learn how to use there is. Period.
Randy

I don't see how Glock is fundamentally any simpler than a M&P or any other modern Striker fired pistol. (I have a couple of Glocks, so I have nothing against them). While I agree a snub nose is not going to be as accurate, I would argue they are accurate enough and they are simpler still than a Glock.

[Mk42gunner]

Guys, the important thing is to get new shooters. Preferably trained and safe new shooters.

How the gun fits her hand is pretty important for someone that is just learning, even more so than for us enthusiasts.

Robert

[Petrol & Powder]

Randy, I hear you and I understand your points. However, she has to start somewhere. TC is doing an incredibly good thing for her.
This young lady has someone that wants to help get her started and he wants to do it right. If she intends to be a prosecutor I can only assume she is an attorney or is working to become an attorney; I don't think she's an idiot or irresponsible. Despite your concerns I think it will turn out OK.

[Thumbcocker]

Thanks for all the input. I especially value the input of those of you with instructor experience. I am largely a self taught handgun enthusiast and realize my limits in instructing a new shooter. I feel comfortable going over basics like safety and letting a newby fire a few shots but that is about it.


A few more facts.


The kid is 30 years old and an assistant states attorney in the office I work in. She has done 4or 5 jury trials with me and other attorneys in the office backstopping her. I have never had to tell her how to do anything twice and she asks intelligent questions about prosecution and the stuff you don't get in law school or books.


I try to give all interns or new attorney's who show an interest an opportunity to at least try shooing a handgun at the range using my guns, ammo, and hearing protection. I also like to let any of them who show an interest try venison in some form or fashion. I figure it is a chance to let a new generation, many of whom don't have a really formed opinion on guns and hunting a chance to have some fun and see a little bit of the rural hunting culture. I think I have been pretty successful.


The kid was born in Seoul and she and her parents immigrated when she was 12. She was raised in Chicago and had never held a gun prior to our range trip. She took a real liking to charcoal grilled backstrap and has a neutral to positive view on hunting not that she wants to participate. Recently we had a case where a minor stole a Glock from a vehicle and accidntially shot another minor with it after dropping the magazine but not working the slide to clear the chamber. The kid had questions and we looked at Glock pictures on line. A few days later a Trooper was in the office and I asked him to show the kid how his Glock worked. He stripped the pistol and gave her an overview ( he is also an instructor and rated master) and how to safely clear the gun. She got a much better idea of how semi-autos work from that.


Later the trooper mentioned the ccw class taught by the retired ISP range instructors and how he also assists on the firing line supervising shooters in the final day of the course. The kid asked me about the class and I told her Mrs. Thumbcocker and I thought it was well done and worthwhile. She asked what good the class would do her and I told her at the least it would expand her knowledge of guns and shooting and if she was going to make a career out of prosecution it would be good to have some basic gun knowledge. I also told her that having the ability to get the ccw permit was kind of like have a drivers license in a cith with good public transport. You might not need it but if you decided you want a car or gun you would have the option.


Illinois requires 16 hours of training to apply for a ccw. Not military weapons training by any means but much more than most states. I encouraged the kid to take this course because the instructors are professional and very safety conscious. She has now mentioned that she may want her own gun in the future. Since she lives alone I think that might be a good idea. Right now I want to get her through this course and hopefully she will have fun and we will have another shooter among us. If not she will still have basic safety knowledge and information that will be of use to her in her career.


I do not expect anyone to change their deeply held beliefs on this subject but hopefully my rationale for suggesting the course and offering the loan of a gun and ammo are put more in prespective.

[W.R.Buchanan]

What you are doing for this person is admirable. I wish more people would be willing to take some responsibility for educating someone about the sport and it's tools.

If she is going to be a Prosecutor then the very real possibility of having a run in with someone you sent to jail should be of concern.

There is a lot more to shooting than simply firing the gun and the Mindset that comes along with it improves your awareness of your surroundings immensely.

Hopefully this will work out just fine. I think she's in good hands.

Randy

[rking22]

"I try to give all interns or new attorney's who show an interest an opportunity to at least try shooing a handgun at the range using my guns, ammo, and hearing protection. I also like to let any of them who show an interest try venison in some form or fashion. I figure it is a chance to let a new generation, many of whom don't have a really formed opinion on guns and hunting a chance to have some fun and see a little bit of the rural hunting culture. I think I have been pretty successful."

Thumbcocker,, the above is just AWESOME, I wish more people would/could do the same. Thank You

[W.R.Buchanan]

I don't see how Glock is fundamentally any simpler than a M&P or any other modern Striker fired pistol. (I have a couple of Glocks, so I have nothing against them). While I agree a snub nose is not going to be as accurate, I would argue they are accurate enough and they are simpler still than a Glock.

Glocks preceded M&P's by nearly 15 years That's why they are simpler, they invented this type of gun and perfected it first. Glocks were up to Gen 3 before M&P's came out. Nothing wrong with M&P's but they are nothing more than a different shaped Glock, and only exist because of the popularity of Glocks. S&W saw a market and an opportunity. Same with XD's,,, never would have happened if not for Glocks.

Ruger is just now releasing the American Pistol which is a striker fired pistol like a Glock. They obviously see room for another style Glock in the Gun Market. These guns are also simpler and more cost effective to manufacture than say a 1911(which Ruger also makes) so they are an obvious choice for a manufacturer looking to broaden it's product line. And they will appeal to some people and may even be better guns. Only time will tell.

The thing about the D/A revolvers is shooting one is easy,,, but hitting something any farther away than a few yards is not that easy. Trigger control is everything, and it requires a lot of practice to get good. I have a S&W 696 in .44 Special with a 3" bbl. I love the gun!!! However shooting it in DA mode is a pure waste of ammo for me as I can't hit anything with it. S/A is a different story and I am pretty good out to 25 yards. Also this is a gun, that if you are hit by a 250 gr SWC, will make a big impression no matter where it hits. But the operative point is getting those hits. I require much more practice, and so would anyone else.

Randy

[ksfowler166]

I would recommend a 4" K frame with magma grips and 38 spl wadcutters.

[mjwcaster]

A ccw class is not a defensive pistol class, at least not most in IL.
I am an IL ccw instructor.

As thumbcocker has stated IL requires 16 hours of training.
We incorporate NRA basic pistol as our day one training with associated range time to train students the fundamentals of safe firearms handling and marksmanship.
Day 2 covers the law, qualification shoot and some defensive shooting.
We stress that this is not a defensive shooting class.
Many ccw classes in IL do not even teach shooting, we just had a student who already had her ccw take our day 1 class this weekend to learn the fundamentals that were not taught in her previous class and she is not alone.

I have talked to too many people who have gotten their ccw permits who admit they do not know the first thing about shooting.
Just the other day a lady told me that she sat in class 15 hours, at the range her instructor loaded up her mags and gun (22 supplied by instructor), she pulled the trigger 30 times and got her certificate.
I hear stories like hers all too often.

Thumbcocker sounds like he has a line on decent instructors and this is a great starting point for this young lady.
She can then continue on her journey, but has to start some where.
Where better to learn how to shoot than with experienced instructors.

Many students who come through our class have never fired a gun before in their life, some have shot a few times, very, very few are proficient and safe handgunners before coming to class.
This is why we teach a safety and fundamentals class, it is what is needed by the vast majority of our students.
Remember that we do not have a handgun culture in this state, handguns are bad.

A number of our students even admit to having been anti-gun until recently, our new ccl laws having changed their minds on the issue.

We are blessed to have a private location to run our classes with a range, many instructors are stuck with limited range access and range time, at least in my part of the state, so very, very little shooting gets done.


Hopefully people will continue on and get more training, all we are trying to do is teach a solid set of fundamentals and firearms safety for them to expand upon.

Many of our students do not even own firearms yet and of those that do many do not own holsters, unless their gun came with one.

But they will have 3 months after class to acquire them before getting their permits.

[Thumbcocker]

The course she is taking requires 130 rounds for training and score.

[Dale53]

This has been a MOST interesting thread...

Dale53

[Plate plinker]

Good on you fella. If she makes enemies later at least you have helped her out the best you can. Hope the trigger pull is not to stiff for her. Other than the trigger it will be trial and error to find the right piece. Gen 4 Glocks with the double recoil spring are surprisingly soft by the way.

[Thumbcocker]

Here is the kids practice target from tonight. 5,7,and 10 yards.162069

[Plate plinker]

She seems to be doing fine, so where is your target? :wink:

[Petrol & Powder]

She will be just fine. The issues about combat, mindset, training, the real world and everything else will be addressed later.

You have to start somewhere and she has a fine start.