1911 barrels -- government in commander frame

[NavyVet1959]

I have a RAI .22 TCM/9mm combo in the mid-size double stack frame. I'm wanting to put a .38 SUPER barrel in it.

Will a 5" government model barrel fit in the mid-size (Commander size) frame and still lock up and work acceptably?

Originally, I was just going to rechamber it for 9x23 or .38 SUPER, but the cost to rent the reamer is as much as just buying a new Swenson barrel at Midway, so I figured I would just buy the new barrel.

I'm currently planning on making my own .38 SUPER brass from .223 brass, so this is probably closer to a .38 Super Comp than just a .38 SUPER.

Also, what weight recoil spring is recommended for a mid-size 1911 shooting full power .38 Super Comp loads?

[Ithaca Gunner]

Yes, a 5" gov't barrel should be no problem to fit to a Commander slide/frame, you'll just have 3/4" of barrel sticking out beyond the bushing. You may have to fit a custom bushing though, really with any barrel for optimum performance.

As for Swenson barrels, from my experience with them, I would go with a better grade. I've bought two, the first was a 5" gov't in .45 and required extensive fitting to my G.I. gun. The second was a .45 Commander barrel which was unusable due to the link hole improperly drilled and located by at least 1/16". I sent that one back in a hurry and have been using Ed Brown for .45 and Fusion for every thing else.


As for the recoil spring weight, I would say 18.5-20lb. because you'll be using a Commander slide with heavy loads, (Commanders usually require a lb. or two more than a gov't model anyway) Here's a very general guide from Wilson Combat;




The recoil spring in a 1911 pistol is an important part of the puzzle of overall autoloader reliability. The primary purpose of the recoil spring is to strip a cartridge from the magazine during the feeding process and secondly, to protect the frame from excess slide battering during operation.
Our recoil springs are carefully wound and heat-treated in the USA of the finest ordnance-spec music wire to give you long-lasting durability and resistance to heat and deformation over time. They have been thoroughly tested and will maintain a consistent spring weight during long-term use.
Even though Wilson Combat recoil springs are the best springs you can buy, we recommend changing your recoil springs at regular intervals to optimize your pistol’s performance and enhance reliability.
When is it time to change your recoil spring?


If you start getting failures to return to battery while feeding it may be an indication that your recoil spring is losing some of its overall length. Typically, compact pistols will require more frequent length recoil spring changes than standard pistols.
If your Shok-Buff recoil buffer is becoming torn within a few hundred rounds after installation-that is also evidence that your recoil spring is ready to be replaced.
Any easy way to check for a worn spring is to compare your recoil spring versus a new spring of the same weight and brand. If your spring has lost approximately one-half an inch of overall length, it is time to replace your spring. To ensure this you should always have extra recoil springs of your desired weight(s) on hand.
Any time you buy a second-hand or older 1911 pistol, it is a good idea to bring all unknown poundage springs back to factory spec for reliable operation. New, quality springs are a cheap insurance policy against malfunctions and pistol damage.
If your ejection or extraction pattern suddenly changes, you may have a weakened recoil spring.

What is the right spring weight for your pistol?


The proper recoil spring weight for a 1911 pistol is dependent on the caliber, length of the barrel and the tension of the hammer spring.
It is advised to tune your spring weights based on the type of loads you prefer to shoot most often. If you shoot mostly lighter loadings, use weights at the lower of the spectrum; conversely if you prefer heavier or +P loads, try heavier springs.
For all-around reliability try spring weights in the median of the recommended spectrum.
If your pistol fails to lock back on the last round after installing a new recoil spring you may need to try a lighter weight spring.
Wilson Combat recommended spring weight ranges are as follows.



Caliber/Barrel length
Recommended Recoil Spring Weight Range


.45 ACP 5”
15-18.5#


.45 ACP 4.25”
17-20#


.45 ACP 4”
18-22#


9mm 5”
10-12#


9mm 4”
11-13#


.38 Super 5”
13-16#


10mm 5”
18.5-2


When replacing your pistol’s recoil spring it is important to remember to change your firing pin spring at the same time.


The firing pin spring is one of the most important springs in your 1911 pistol.
A weak or broken firing pin spring can cause a failure to fire and can also reduce the drop-safe qualities of your pistol.

[Tackleberry41]

Avoid the Swenson, there is a reason they are so cheap. A reamer will be cheaper than a decent barrel.

[bob208]

back in the old days my friend had a government model and I had a combat commander. we swap parts just to see what would work. first the recoil springs were out because of length. but we could put the whole top end on each frame. you could use the long barrel in the short slide but you had to use the commander barrel bushing.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Don't forget the Shok-Buff!

[NavyVet1959]

Avoid the Swenson, there is a reason they are so cheap. A reamer will be cheaper than a decent barrel.

Personal experience or just repeating what you have heard?

The question is not how good of a barrel it might be, but rather if it is as good as the 9x19 barrel that came on the RIA. If advancedtactical.com had any of the .38 SUPER barrels in stock, I might get one of them instead. Unfortunately, both the full size and mid-size barrels are out of stock for the .38 SUPER over there.

[Forrest r]

Back in the day We'd fit 6" 9mm bbl's in our 5" 38super 1911's. Used to get 50+fps out of most loads in that 6" bbl compared to a 5" bbl.

[leftiye]

I prefer 9X23 Win overall as a caliber for this type of gun.

[Tackleberry41]

Personal experience or just repeating what you have heard?

The question is not how good of a barrel it might be, but rather if it is as good as the 9x19 barrel that came on the RIA. If advancedtactical.com had any of the .38 SUPER barrels in stock, I might get one of them instead. Unfortunately, both the full size and mid-size barrels are out of stock for the .38 SUPER over there.

Personal experience. One I bought was no where hear a drop in, it dropped in the slide, but the feed ramp was way off. Your just not going to get much of a barrel for that price unless its surplus.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Brownell`s offers a complete kit of different weight springs for either a full size or a Commander size 1911. As I recall the factory weight spring for a Commander was 18 lb in a .45 acp.Robert

[DougGuy]

I buy Gov't barrels for my Commander and cut/recrown them. I use a Briley barrel bushing and they work best without the "Series 70 ramp" which many barrels have, this is a slightly enlarged section of barrel at the muzzle designed to tighten the fit in the bushing but relax the fit when the gun is cycling and not in battery.

I didn't use the Swenson barrels because in addition to what Tackleberry said, I have read the same thing on other forums from users that posted their experience with them and they are not a very good choice. I have not used a Fusion barrel although they look well made they are pricey and you can dang near get a top name barrel for the same price or less.

I have NOT been impressed with the Kimber barrels that have come through my shop! For a high dollar pistol, I would have expected to see much better but truth is I would not use one of their barrels and would not recommend one as there are MUCH better choices available. I'm sure some of them are really good, but I can assure you that some of them are not good at all.

These days the term "Match Grade" is very misleading. To us here who like to shoot cast, it's like the kiss of death until the barrel is throated sufficiently to plunk our favorite loads.

[DougGuy]

A further note on recoil springs. For an EDC pistol the definitive method to determine if your recoil spring is correct is using your carry loads stand at the combat distance of 7yds and fire a quick dbl tap into the target. The follow up second shot in this sequence should be within 2" of the first shot. This insures the pistol has ample time to return to battery and the shooter's grip has recovered from the recoil cycle and returned the sights to the position the first shot was fired from. Too strong a recoil spring can cause the muzzle to dip downward as the gun goes back into battery and the second shot will be low. Too weak and the gun fires before it is resettled in the shooter's grip as it has not had ample time to return the sights to the initial point of aim causing the second shot to be high.

The reason I like and use this method is because it takes into consideration not only the recoil cycle of the pistol, but the shooter's stance and grip which are very important. The 1911's firing cycle is not just the gun cycling in the shooter's hands, everything from the shooter's elbows forward becomes part of the pistol's balance during the firing cycle.

[Green Frog]

I came into possession of a 38 Super slide in Commander length, and since I already had a 70 Series Combat Commander, I decided I "needed" a multi-caliber Commander. The first 38 Super barrel to turn up was a Gov't Model length item, so I put it in (with the proper, shorter bushing) and got it shooting, then put it in the lathe and cut & crowned it to the proper length. Novak sights on both slides, some fitting on the feed ramp, and a couple of mags in each caliber, and I was good to go. Dadgummit, I wish I hadn't sold that gun! :sad:

Froggie

[NavyVet1959]

I went ahead and bought both the 4.25" and 5" barrels. I was hoping that the 5" one would fit in the mid-size, but there is an angled portion where the link & link pin attach that is angled on the 5" barrel whereas it is squared off on the 4.25" barrel. This results in the guide rod extending just a bit too far and it not being possible to rotate the barrel bushing. So, I drove out the link pin and reinstalled it on the 4.25" barrel. I wasn't sure of which length link to buy, so I just bought the standard size and only one of them. I guess I'll have to wait until the next time I have a few things to order before ordering another one of them for the full-size single stack RIA .22TCM/9mm that I also have. I suspect that I could have taken a dremel or air cutoff tool and ground off the extra ramped piece of the link attachment point, but I figured I would just try it out with the 4.25" barrel in the mid-size for now.

Didn't have any .38 Super Comp brass made yet from .223, so just filled the mag with 9x19 to see ensure that they would cycle by hand without a problem.

Time to start making some brass...

[RJM52]

.38 Super from .223...been there and done that...it isn't worth the time.

This was originally done by Jeff Cooper in the 1970s and I believe was called the 9mm Super Cooper. He was looking for a light weight trail gun and put a 6" BarSto barrel in a Colt Commander with BoMar sights. Because of the very thick web velocities could be jacked up to the 9x23 range without risk of blowing out the unsupported portion of the case web.

To make .38 Super/9x23 brass from .223, one has to cut the brass down to the correct LOA and then size and run a 9mm pug from the expander die inside. The case walls are much thicker than standard Super brass and this will case a bulge. The brass then has to be put in a case trimmer and cut to the correct length and square the case mouth. I made about 25 cases back in the 1980s just playing around with the Cooper loads.

As to GM barrels in a Commander...I am no gunsmith but the smith who has done most of my 1911 work told me that no, the Commander and GM barrels are not the same. Besides the length the area ahead of the lower lug is a different angle.

For inexpensive 1911 barrels I have used the ROTO 4M from SARCO and they have performed very well. I have a 9mm in a GM and a 7" .38 Super in a Gold Cup. I don't think they do a ramped barrel however.

Handled a single stack 5" RAI 9mm/.22 yesterday...it may be on the must have list one day...

Bob

[NavyVet1959]

To make .38 Super/9x23 brass from .223, one has to cut the brass down to the correct LOA and then size and run a 9mm pug from the expander die inside. The case walls are much thicker than standard Super brass and this will case a bulge. The brass then has to be put in a case trimmer and cut to the correct length and square the case mouth. I made about 25 cases back in the 1980s just playing around with the Cooper loads.


The .38 SUPER and 9x23 both use the same size bullet -- 0.356". The other dimensions on the brass are a bit different though. The .38 SUPER, being straight-walled, has a base and neck diameter of 0.384" whereas the 9x23 has diameters of 0.391" and 0.381" respectively. Both have the exact same case length of 0.900". The overall length of the 9x23 is slightly longer than the .38 SUPER (1.300" vs 1.280"), but that is probably going to be more dependent on the size (fore to aft dimension) of the magazine and how the leade on the chamber is cut. I'm hoping that the added neck diameter of the .38 SUPER will open up the .223 brass enough that I won't have to ream the necks on the converted brass.



As to GM barrels in a Commander...I am no gunsmith but the smith who has done most of my 1911 work told me that no, the Commander and GM barrels are not the same. Besides the length the area ahead of the lower lug is a different angle.


Other than the angle on the lower lug, the 5" barrel seemed like it would work since it did appear to lock up as well as the 4.25" barrel when I tried it without the guide rod and spring, but the additional metal on the lower lug was enough to push the guide rod out just slightly enough to prevent the barrel bushing from rotating.



For inexpensive 1911 barrels I have used the ROTO 4M from SARCO and they have performed very well. I have a 9mm in a GM and a 7" .38 Super in a Gold Cup. I don't think they do a ramped barrel however.


Well, these barrels were pretty cheap with the "birthday pricing" from Midway, so I figured it was worth the gamble. We'll see, I guess... :)

[NavyVet1959]

To make .38 Super/9x23 brass from .223, one has to cut the brass down to the correct LOA and then size and run a 9mm pug from the expander die inside.

I tried making a piece last night by just running it through the .223 dies. Ended up with a loaded round where the loaded mouth was noticeably larger in diameter than the body. Fired a normal Red Dot load with the Lee 358-105-SWC in it and it fireformed to a more normal looking piece of brass. Ended up having to use the 9x19 FCD to reduce the end of the round a bit so that it could chamber. Couldn't seem to find the .38 SUPER FCD that I was sure I ordered. Reviewed the order on Midway's site later that evening and it seems that I didn't order one. I guess I figured that I could either use the 9x19 FCD or maybe the one for .357 magnum. Couldn't find the FCD for .357 magnum either, so now I need to go back through all the orders that I've made at Midway for the last few years to see if I ever ordered one. Don't want to just assume that I never ordered one and then order one again. I have a couple of duplicate dies already because of that. :)

The 358-105-SWC did not want to load from the magazine though. Switching to the TL-356-124-TC seemed to work better though.