questions for BrentD and Mr Rix.

[Gunlaker]

Hello,

I know you guys both shoot paper patched muzzle loaders in LR competition so I have a question for you. Actually a couple....

Are the muzzle velocity SD's similar in your muzzleloaders vs. your PP cartridge rifles? If not, what do you think you'd attribute any differences to?

It seems to me that it's just a little trickier to get a load with really low muzzle vel SD when shooting PP vs lubed bullets. That made me wonder about how consistent the numbers are from a muzzleloader.

thanks,

Chris.

[BrentD]

Chris, I don't really know because I haven't shot my muzzleloader over the chronograph. I due shoot the same powder charge (82 grs Swiss 1.5) and one of the same two bullets I shoot in my cartridge rifles, and I get about the same sorts of scores. beyond that, I really can't say, except for certain, it is NOT tricky. Nothing about shooting paper patches is tricky at all. There is an internet mystique that makes it seem like some great mystery and a special challenge, but it's not. It's pretty darn easy as a matter of fact.

I do like to have really low SDs for muzzle velocities but only because they make me feel good. I don't think they are terribly important and they are definitely overrated. Getting the bullet to the target in stable fashion - that (to me) is more critical than anything other than breaking the trigger on a perfect sight picture.

Maybe Michael has some chronograph numbers for you, but I just double checked my books and I do not. Sorry about that.

Brent

[johnson1942]

i sold recently a 50 cal side lock with a 1/23 twist i built and shot a couple of years. the barrel is 30 inches long. i shot a 686 grain paper patched bullet and used 70 grains of 2 f behind the bullet. i use 18 pound paper single wrap and had a difference of 4 to 5 ft per sec coming out of the barrel. i was surprised with that weight of bullet and with only 70 grains of powder that the ft per sec was a consistant 1200 ft per sec. give or take 4 or 5 ft per sec. never measured the ft. per sec. with a cast bullet. the paper i used was 18 pound freezer wrap poly coated paper. that is a common paper to use for single wrap. the poly side was to the bore and that may have helped with the 1200 ft per sec at 70 grains of powder. the gun is very very accurate and now is doing more than punching holes in paper and is a elk gun. recoil is surpriseingly not that much. i guess i didnt answer your question but just input on powder to weight to ft. per second for a pp bullet.

[johnson1942]

i forgot to mention that the barrel was cryo treated and lapped a couple of thousands strokes with a high gloss polishing compound on a rotating rod. this can help get 1200 ft per sec on only 70 grains of powder with that weight of bullet.

[Chill Wills]

Chris - black
My reply in Red

Hello,

I know you guys both shoot paper patched muzzle loaders in LR competition so I have a question for you. Actually a couple....Chris, I was not avoiding you or your question. Bragging a little, I was gone Saturday shooting a great 22 BPCR match at Smithmoor (Wyoming) and just got back and setting here with a mug of coffee.8-):grin:

Are the muzzle velocity SD's similar in your muzzleloaders vs. your PP cartridge rifles? Yes. If not, what do you think you'd attribute any differences to? I have chronographed them. I feel like they are the same regardless the vessel, brass case or naked barrel steel, for me it works out the same.

It seems to me that it's just a little trickier to get a load with really low muzzle vel SD when shooting PP vs lubed bullets. That made me wonder about how consistent the numbers are from a muzzleloader.
For me, seating the bullet on the powder makes all the difference in getting good numbers along with making sure there is a clear, consistent path from the Platinum lined nipple to the powder for each shot in a long string – basically all day during the match. Puting them in a group is the main thing as Brent said but I would add that using a chrono aids the process. Watching the numbers as you vary your loading/seating helps you see cause and effect.
Of all the caps I was able to try, CCI #11 mag caps gave me the best chronograph numbers and I also snap one at the line after wiping, before loading – like many of the riflemen do, just to make double sure the rifle has a clear, dry path for sparks. So, for every round down range I need two caps.

Longrange Muzzleloader shooters and events are few and far apart. I wish you were closer. I was shooting with Rick Moritz yesterday. I think he sold his for lack of venue too.
-Michael Rix

thanks,

Chris.

[kokomokid]

Micheal, what kind of chronograph do you use ?

[Chill Wills]

I mostly use an old M-33 from about 1981. I grab it when I don't want to have to fuss with something (set-up) but yet want to get an idea of what a load is doing. It is just a two channel-LED readout, no printer but I can set it up in a minute flat. I also have ground spikes for it so I can use it with prone fire.

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Gents. I thought that the muzzleloader might have a small edge but it sounds like this is probably not the case.

I generally chronograph my loads as I shoot mostly at 200m and like to be confident that I won't have unacceptable vertical dispersion due to velocity variations. If I could shoot further away more often I would probably do that instead.

This year I'd like to be able to spend several days in a row doing load development at a greater distance. I think that would help me out a bunch. I'm just not sure how I'm going to get that done :-)

Chris.

[kokomokid]

Thanks Micheal I thought the oehler looked like a pia to set up but sounds like you have problem solved.
Chris I develop loads at 370 yards and wish I had more room but tough to get wind conditions that cooperate where I live.

[Don Purcell]

Brent, I have a question for you and "think" I know the answer but would like your input. I have a Pedersoli Gibbs .451 and so far have just shot an NEI 550 grain Creedmoor bullet that Walt Melander made for me about a month before he passed away. I loaded 95 grains of Goex FFG and just got patterns at 200 yards. I attended a Mini-Creedmoor at Friendship and at 500 yards would keep them inside a ballcap. Why the better accuracy at 500 but pitiful groups at 200? My only guess is the bullets not stabilizing at 200 but coming into their own at 500. What I'm trying to wrap my feeble mind around is how a bullet can correct itself to such a great degree after such a wild trip at 200. Have been reading Mann's "The Bullets Flight" and still digesting what I've read so far. Thanks, Don

[BrentD]

Don,
I am a bit of a heretic, so I'll say that is is not your bullet stabilizing at longer ranges. And I'll further say that I doubt you can repeat that very often, esp on the same day, same conditions.

There are several possible explanations but my favorite would be that you probably had just a fluke event - now which of the two is the fluke - that is the important question. Only more shooting will say for sure. However, I am not a fan of a 550 gr bullet in a .45 caliber rifle - they are too long for the standard 18" twist, especially when the winds get nasty. Paper patched bullets are probably limited ot slightly shorter bullets than groove bullets, however.

If I were in your shoes, I would not be happy until I could get good groups at 200 yds. They may not group at 500, but until you get that figured out, there will be no consistent accuracy at 500. Think of it this way. At 200 yds, if your bullet is truly unstable, then it is wandering around in a rather random fashion. Unless this bullet has some degree of intelligence, how is it to know where it is supposed to be going so that when it "settles down" or stabilizes, it will be headed back on track? How does it know to steer right if it had been off to the left at 200 or steer left if it had been of to the right at 200? No, I don't buy it. I also have not seen it other than an occasional really good group at long distance that is not repeatable on a regular basis, or due to a change in environmental conditions.

I have heard of a person who has a standing offer to pay plane tickets and some substantial prize money to anyone that can demonstrate this fable. He has a bunch of shooting screens set up at different distances for bullets to pass through so this can be proven. No one has even taken up the challenge, much less won it.

There are multiple things in Mann's book that I think are not true. I now it's a bible for a lot of folks but I don't put much credence in most of it. And that's just one reason I get branded a heretic. I have not been able to replicate many of these things, like many other internet legends.

If that bullet is longer than 1.48" (and preferably closer to 1.46"), I think it is too long for that barrel.

just my two cents.

[Don Purcell]

I agree with every thing you stated and just grabbing at straws with the bullet correcting itself back on track. Doesn't make any sense at all I know. While at Friendship another experienced shooter took my rifle and shot at 500 with the same good results. I now have an adjustable plug nose pour and will experiment with different lengths and weights to hopefully find a sweet spot. Would like to get up to the Lodi shoot and be further put to shame in my shooting (dis)abilities! Keep your powder dry, Don.

[BrentD]

Don, try for about 535 grs, but the 1.46" length is the best mark to look for. Nose pours require a flat nose which I don't particularly care for, but maybe it will be okay.

Why not plan on being in Lodi on the first weekend in May? I can send you a registration form and other details.

Brent

[Lead pot]

I read some say that they cant buy a pig at 300 yards but they get the Turkeys at 385. Once a bullet wanders off course there is nothing that will guide it back on track unless some unseen variables push it back in the right direction like a wind change.

I see a lot of results at the end of the match when I shoot a long range match 800,900 and a 1000 yards that my 1000 yard results are better then my 800 yard unless conditions change like wind or misty rains. I think it's all a relation the way you see the target. The 800 yard target, say at Lodi where they don't change the target. You shoot at the same target through the whole match and you use the same sight aperture for the whole match the black dot down range changes in size looking through your sights is what causes your groups or scores get larger or smaller.

There is no little gremlin with a joystick guiding that bullet. Or is there???? :)

[Don McDowell]

I don't know if Lodi would be a good comparison, in view of their way of shooting that match. Shooting the 1000 first with the light from behind the shooter and the shooter being fresh, and finishing on the 800 at the end of the day, shooter being tired and the light coming from behind the target.

[BrentD]

Kurt, all Creedmoor matches that I have shot use the same bull from 800-1000. I believe that is the rule actually. I don't use the same aperture all the way though however.

[Lead pot]

Brent. I never shot a creedmoor match other then at Lodi so I didn't know if this is the case.
But I switched back to a post because of the heavy floater I have in my shooting eye that distorts the target looking through the round aperture. I have to give Jim Kluskens a call to see if he can make me a card of several different post diameters so I can pick one that matches the bull at different ranges. The round apertures just don't do it anymore.

Don.

I never seen the sun behind the target at Lodi during a match. It's always on my left. The sun position there is not a problem for me during the match on that range.

[BrentD]

the sun at Lodi doesn't bother me either. I don't quite know why others find it bothersome. Early in the morning it can shine up through my front sight barrel but that's no big deal either.

[Don Purcell]

Brent thanks for the invite but family plans are already in place but I will keep an eye out for sometime later. I will do some adjusting on my bullet length and see what happens.

[BrentD]

Don,
Other weekends at Lodi are first weekend in June (midrange, 200, 500, 600) and first weekend in September also (long range again).

[Don Purcell]

That sounds much better I have them marked, thanks Brent.