My cast 3030 deer load?

[Elbow]

I use a Lee 309 170f mold, wheel weight lead mixed 50--50 with pure lead, a gas check and 22 grains of IMR 4198. I shoot this load out of a Winchester Model 94 and get fantastic groups. I posted on another forum and they all bashed my setup for deer. I hunt whitetails in Vermont which can go over 200 pounds. Just wondering if you guys think this is a good deer killing setup within 150 yards. Thanks, Craig.

[claude]

With all due respect, if your load has been successful on a regular basis, does it really matter what the other guy says? While you are setting at the table enjoying a plate full of backstraps, mashed potatoes, and gravy, what difference does the bashers opinion make?

[Outer Rondacker]

Im in upstate NY and it is not much different then some of the mountain areas of VT. 30-30 is great out to 150yd. I am lucky if when in the thick stuff I can get a 30 yd shot off. As for your load well that all comes down to can you hit what you are aiming at. If so then that is all that maters. I can think back to when my daughter was born. Times never had be so ruff for me. I sold every gun except one I grow up with. A youth single shot 20g. Hunting day came and I showed up with this gun. The guys held back as long as they could and then it started. I ended up going home with a spike horn but meat is all it was about that day.

I have been to shoots with some guys and its all about the gear. I have also walked into a sporting goods store or bar room after a hunt and saw the same guys pay with CC. Not a one has the cash to buy a gun on a whim. Only the best and brightest when its going on plastic. What I getting at is this.

Can your load take deer?
Do you like your rifle/load?
Is it within your means?
Did you have fun?

I can tell you stories of how us mountain men showed up to such and such event in our old ratty what ever and took first or second place. Only the young ones in my area care about image. I hope you can look past the bashers one moment of coolness and just think practical not tactical. LOL

[Hickory]

I use a Lee 309 170f mold, wheel weight lead mixed 50--50 with pure lead, a gas check and 22 grains of IMR 4198. I shoot this load out of a Winchester Model 94 and get fantastic groups. I posted on another forum and they all bashed my setup for deer. I hunt whitetails in Vermont which can go over 200 pounds. Just wondering if you guys think this is a good deer killing setup within 150 yards. Thanks, Craig.

Just remember that not everyone shoots or hunts with cast boolits, so therefore they have little or no understanding of how effective they are and can be.
My nephew used my 30-30 Marlin in Michigan one year and was laughed at and made fun of, just like I told him he would be. But, when he killed his deer with a witness, the guy who witnessed it did more bragging about how quick and cleanly the deer went down then my nephew.

[richhodg66]

I use a Lee 309 170f mold, wheel weight lead mixed 50--50 with pure lead, a gas check and 22 grains of IMR 4198. I shoot this load out of a Winchester Model 94 and get fantastic groups. I posted on another forum and they all bashed my setup for deer. I hunt whitetails in Vermont which can go over 200 pounds. Just wondering if you guys think this is a good deer killing setup within 150 yards. Thanks, Craig.

Put one of those through the lungs and a deer isn't going any farther than is shot with a full house '06 load. I've killed a deer every year for five years now with simlar loadings, just make sure your shot placement is good and don't get crazy about long range, you'll do well.

[Hickok]

Craig, that is a very good deer load. If you handed me your Winchester and a handful of those loads, I would feel confident in using them.

[white eagle]

pay no mind to what others say about your proven load and set up
all that really matters is the confidence you have when you pull the trigger
then who has the last laugh [smilie=w:

[aspangler]

I use the same boolit and alloy but with 30.5 grains of IMR4064. @025 average for a 10 shot group and 1 to 1 1/2"groups at 100 yards in my 1966 Marlin 336.

[siamese4570]

Don't tell the 8 pt that i with the same boolit, that the load is no good! Theres a little bit of him still in the freezer and he might crawl out. But seriously, like everyone else said, it you put the boolit in the right place, it'll work.
siamese4570

[Mumblypeg]

Reminds me of the time a fellow hunter told me you couldn't kill a deer with a .22LR.... I told him if you help me haul it out you can ask the 135lb. spike that's in the woods just down the hill.... (Behind the ear, dead as a hammer)

[jhalcott]

I used cast bullets only for five years. I killed many deer and g r ound hogs in that period. Lots of people said cast bullets would not work. I just smiled and chewed on my venison steaks.

[toallmy]

You have probably loaded, shot and studied your gun and ammo more than the guys doing the snickering. If you have proven the load and can put it were you want you are in front of the pack.

[largom]

Have killed deer with my 30-30 and 300 Sav. using that same boolit. Guess no one told me before hand that it would not work.Larry

[Wolfer]

Armed with that load I would fear no deer that walks the face of the earth!

[rking22]

Many of the people I know think that it takes a cannon to kill a deer, they frequently lose their deer ,I don't. It's about patience and placement ,not FtLbs of power. Use enough boolit to make two holes thru the vitals and all is well. YOU have the responsibility to adhere to your self imposed limits to make sure the placement is good. I use the 311041 or RD 165 with a slightly lighter load in my 30-30s and 30Rem(21gr of RL7, from memory). Have not had a deer run any farther after the shot than deer shot with 30-06 150Jackets, 45-70 ect. Does plenty of damage but not the blood shot mess that Hi Vel frequently gives. Place it well and get out your knife cause there is work to do :)
I hunt thick woods and my typical shot is under 60 yards, but if I had good light and was seeing well(open sights), I would have no concern using that load at 150 yards. Cast them from something close to 2/2/96 and the Lee will work great. Ignore the self apointed know it alls, who have never actually DONE IT.

[Motor]

Elbow. I'm nowhere near my data sources. What velocity are you getting with that load?

Do you get any expansion? I know expansion is not essential, I'm just curious.

Motor

[UBER7MM]

I use the same boolit and alloy but with 30.5 grains of IMR4064. @025 average for a 10 shot group and 1 to 1 1/2"groups at 100 yards in my 1966 Marlin 336.

That's the load my buddy uses. Same gun too. Works great!

[tdoyka]

i use a 165gr ranch dog out of my 30-40 krag. velocity is around 1800fps and it can shoot a deer out to 150 yards. i know i should take out my 30-30 m94, but that little old flat point works so well in the krag, the 30-30 doesn't see the light of day.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=71_75&products_id=307

[Hickok]

Love that 30/40 Krag cartridge!

[ubetcha]

Black powder and lead was used for many century's and has taken many a game. it worked then and it works now. really don't need HV to take game. LV work too. just place your shot. You did good.

[rondog]

Black powder and lead was used for many century's and has taken many a game. it worked then and it works now. really don't need HV to take game. LV work too. just place your shot. You did good.

Ya know, I was thinking the same thing - "just how many years did people have ONLY lead bullets to hunt with, before the magical jacketed super bullets and wonder calibers came to save us all from starvation and extinction".....

[rondog]

I use a Lee 309 170f mold, wheel weight lead mixed 50--50 with pure lead, a gas check and 22 grains of IMR 4198. I shoot this load out of a Winchester Model 94 and get fantastic groups. I posted on another forum and they all bashed my setup for deer. I hunt whitetails in Vermont which can go over 200 pounds. Just wondering if you guys think this is a good deer killing setup within 150 yards. Thanks, Craig.
What exactly did those jerks say you should use?

[Outer Rondacker]

What exactly did those jerks say you should use?
This is a good question. What did they say? I bet it was something 308,30-06 blah blah.

[fatnhappy]

Two thoughts spring to mind. The first being "why do you care what people on the internet think?" The second being "if you believe what people on the internet say, why are opinions on cast boolits here more valid than the other keyboard commandos?"

Everything else aside, I have yet to see a deer with Kevlar hair. It doesn't take much to kill them if you know how to shoot. One guy at this site said the 7-08 wasn't capable of killing deer with cast. Learn to trust your experience.

[HangFireW8]

When the 30/30 was introduced as the 30WCF, it was a revolution for deer hunting with lever actions. Deer haven't grown armor plated hearts since then.

[robg]

Its amazing that so many shooters believe lead is useless for bullets.been told it will ruin my barrel ,isn't accurate etc just ignore them,empty vessels make the most noise.

[tdoyka]

When the 30/30 was introduced as the 30WCF, it was a revolution for deer hunting with lever actions. Deer haven't grown armor plated hearts since then.

:holysheepyou mean they are not armor plated!!! well, i'll be.....[smilie=l:

[Nrut]

What exactly did those jerks say you should use?

Take a look yourself ronniedog..
They are cast bullet shooters also..:shock:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=12558&forum_id=24

Maybe you can go over there and straighten them out..
It'll be funny..[smilie=l:[smilie=p:

[ubetcha]

The person that bashed you is a very intelligent person,but sometimes he gets carried away with a subject. The rest of the people seem to agree with you as do the rest of us here.

[leebuilder]

I get bashed too from time to time not here or the Internet, most so called know-it-alls in my community. Yada Yada blah blah. If you have rifle and a load that works for you it is a good rifle and good load end of discussion. I have fun, as we are all students of the rifle. I don't know it all, I know what works for me in the field or on the berm. Velocity is great for that long shot, but when the smoke clears shot placement will trump all other cards. Their are old guys telling me stories of killing deer with 22lr and old obselessant rifles and ammo, shotgun with homemade projectiles because that's all they had. Talked to an old wildlife officer he said his.deer killing gun of all time was S&W 1917 in .455 webley, one shot one kill he said.
Be well

[Markbo]

That one fellah is so hung up on "1000 ft lbs minimum for ethical/humane kill" he is ignoring tje forest for the trees. 1. He's wrong. 2. While your target load is on the light side it is no slouch. Keep range short (under 150yds or so) and hit it in the heart/lungs and you have one dead deer. In fact Id venture a guess most times with no HP and hitting behind the shoulder you would have complete pass through.

[rking22]

I'm not so sure that the 22Gr load of 4198 is all that light. I shoot 22Gr(looked it up toay) of RL7 and it pushes the RD or 311041 to 1750 out of my 22 inch barrel. That is if I trust my crony, at any rate it's close. RL7 and 4198 are very close in performance in several of my rifles. Besides the fine old 32-40 was right in that vicinity.
I read the other forum, OK advice, but if you so firmly believe the 1000FtLb stuff(I don't) then it would stand to reason they never tried it. Run the numbers on a 250gr at 1100 and see what you get, I don't care so don't wanna bother. Many deer are unable to do the math so they just fall over, none the wiser.
Everybody wants to reduce everything to some "number" , it's just not that simple. Velocity enough to fully penetrate is required, anything more flatens the trajectory. That simplifies the shot, and for many people who have trouble judging range, a good very thing. It also raises recoil and puts more demand on the bullet, that's the reason so many deer are lost to the cannons. Friend insists on using a 125J at full tilt from a 30-06, his son lost a monster buck due to hitting the ball in the shoulder. They found the deer 2 weeks later, bullet never got into the ribcage. Bad thing is he still uses the light bullet!

[tdoyka]

i just looked up lyman's reloading handbook 49th ed, that says imr4198, starting load 18.0gr for 1600fps, max load is 24.0gr for 2000fps. i don't have a chrony but i figure a 170gr boolit with 22gr goes roughly 1800fps. i'm pretty sure that it will kill a deer out to 150 yards away, probably a little more.

the 1000lb is complete horsepucky. i shoot alot of deer with a arrow that doesn't even come close to 1000lbs. i wonder what a 250gr 44 mag with a 7 1/2" barrel and a charge of unique going 1000fps has? i wonder if a 50cal flintlock has? 444 marlin? 45-70? horsepucky.

[Hardcast416taylor]

From my younger days I recall reading in a Winchester catalog from the early `50`s, I think, about how many train loads of deer that had been taken with the Model 94 since the cartridge/rifle was introduced. Another claim was it was a better deer taker than all other deer cartridge/rifles of the time.Robert

[jcren]

I find it funny that some will tout using a 160 grain bullet moving 1200 or so from a 357 Magnum as being super deadly, then shout that a 165-180 grain moving 1800+ from a rifle is inhumane. Doesn't seem to add up to me.

[barrabruce]

"yer joking thats sompin yer' lille kid sister be shame to shoot...haaaawwwwhaaaawwwwhaaawwww "


Yes I like how a shortened 30-30 used in a pistol is a non stoppable killing machine out to 300yrds.

But leave it full length and shoot it in a rifle and it'd "most likely bounce of most things if you could hit anything past 50 yrds"

Got me stuffed too.

[Echale3]

Hey, OP--if every deer you shoot with your rig winds up in packages in your freezer then ask yourself what do those idiots know?

First buck I ever shot was taken with a DW 357 SuperMag shoving a 220 grain LBT WLN cast bullet out the front end and it sure seemed plenty dead to me after that slug punched a hole through its heart. The buck went about 30 yards and fell over stone dead. That's a damn sight less running off it did than some of what you see on youtube and such where the hunters are using "writer/gun rag approved" cartridges and rifles. The proof is in the pudding, if you get my drift.

[jmort]

A 45 Colt with a 255 grain SWC at around 500 ft lbs or less will shoot right through any deer broadside, that is currently alive. I bet the 30-30 will do the same, and work well, even at 1,350 fps

[rosst]

almost replied to the other thread, almost . .. but then if you argue with an idiot ( with a bow ) how smart does that make me . .

i have found 1600fps is a very effective speed for the .30/30 using 180 RCBS . . but my experience doesn't go past 100 yards . . but at subsonic speed 1025fps with the same boolit i can kill very well out to +200 yards, altho death takes a little longer . . . but not much, placement is everything !

[Digital Dan]

It's not hard to kill deer. I've had to shoot every one of them with the Model 94 once, and that's more deer than an average truck could drive off with. Or a fleet of pickups. The trick is to shoot, pause briefly as it runs off and then work the lever briskly. It's the sound of that lever that does it, scares 'em plumb to death it does.

Dan

PS: It helps a lot if a fella first puts the shot where it counts.

[Markbo]

Heh heh heh... that is great. :D

[tdoyka]

if you use a 398 super dooper magnumitis with a bullet that give 8765ft/lbs out the muzzle, and you gut shoot a deer, i hope your tracking skills are up to it.

it doesn't matter if you use a 30-30 or a 405 win, placement is king.

[Markbo]

I use to hunt a lot with a friend who was color blind. Couldnt see blood on the ground. That wasnt so bad. The bad thing was he wasnt a very good shot. Every time he shot I knew I had to go track his deer. :D

[Motor]

I'm not so sure that the 22Gr load of 4198 is all that light. I shoot 22Gr(looked it up toay) of RL7 and it pushes the RD or 311041 to 1750 out of my 22 inch barrel. That is if I trust my crony, at any rate it's close. RL7 and 4198 are very close in performance in several of my rifles. Besides the fine old 32-40 was right in that vicinity.
I read the other forum, OK advice, but if you so firmly believe the 1000FtLb stuff(I don't) then it would stand to reason they never tried it. Run the numbers on a 250gr at 1100 and see what you get, I don't care so don't wanna bother. Many deer are unable to do the math so they just fall over, none the wiser.
Everybody wants to reduce everything to some "number" , it's just not that simple. Velocity enough to fully penetrate is required, anything more flatens the trajectory. That simplifies the shot, and for many people who have trouble judging range, a good very thing. It also raises recoil and puts more demand on the bullet, that's the reason so many deer are lost to the cannons. Friend insists on using a 125J at full tilt from a 30-06, his son lost a monster buck due to hitting the ball in the shoulder. They found the deer 2 weeks later, bullet never got into the ribcage. Bad thing is he still uses the light bullet!

I've been reloading since 1985 and shooting reloaded ammo (my reloading mentor's) before that. A lot of this reloading has been for friends and family deer rifles. The part I made red in the last post is a perfect example of ignorance pertaining to bullet performance.

I have over the years loaded "youth loads" for more than a few young people.

The funny thing is about the 125j load mentioned above in red is that if you were to slow that bullet down to around 2600f/s (about what the youth load is in Hodgdon's data) it would work so much better. Even with a shoulder joint hit. But at full 30-06 Velocity or even .308 Win velocity you had better hit nothing on the way in but rib.

BTW: I agree with all who say the OP's load is more than enough. Heck, he's nearly at factory 170gr j-word velocity.

Motor

[kaptain kartridge]

Thanks for the load data, I just purchased a Sears model 101.53521 (savage 340 ) in .30-30 caliber. Had great hopes for testing it with pointed bullets, but they made the magazine to hold the blunt factory loads. So I will experiment with cast 173 gr Lee boolits. I will single load and try 168gr match this summer.

[Hamish]

Craig,

I was unaware of Onandaga's and the One Trick Pony's posts in your thread over there those two are the two on that forum I have on "Ignore".

Pay no mind,,,,,,,

[richhodg66]

Take a look yourself ronniedog..
They are cast bullet shooters also..:shock:

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=12558&forum_id=24

Maybe you can go over there and straighten them out..
It'll be funny..[smilie=l:[smilie=p:

Noticed Larry Gibson gave the same advice he gave me when I took up deer hunting with cast and I have heard him give it to others. The basics are;

.30 caliber or bigger (yours is)

Heavy for caliber bullet (I'd call a 170 grain bullet heavy for .30 caliber)

SOftish alloy (you use the same as he describes)

1800-2000 FPS (yours may be a bit slower but not so much that it would make a difference)

I've killed five deer with various cast loads since he gave me that advice, a .30-30, .308, .300 Savage, .358 Winchester and a .32 Winchester Special (I had killed a lot of them with my own cast in a muzzle loader, but that's no trick, really) and concluded that Larry knew what he was talking about.

I think your load is good. Go hunting now.

[rking22]

Motor, I completely concur, it's the "overspeed" that causes the issue. J bullets have a design velocity range within which the perform as designed. 10 years ago my son killed his first deer with a 125J out of my 308 Kimber, it was doing about 2250fps. Bullet worked like a champ, you CAN overdo the velocity!Would anyone think a 300gr 4570 bullet would NOT exit a chest shot deer? If you push the Rem HP 2200+ from a Ruger it won't! That deer ran 60 yards too, so much for "ENERGY"!!!! Now I reccomend the 170grFP 30cal cast, at 1800ish,,, strangely enough, right about where the OPs load runs. My load (170at1750) has accounted for 11 deer with as many shots, from various 30 caliber rifles. I am presently playing with bigger bores, but not due to any real "need", just exploring :)

Wow, just went and read the thread on the other forum again ,,, way to go 357Max !!!!!

Oh, Elbow, I never shot a bear, but have been told they are much harder to put down than a deer. With bear I would probably use more boolit dia, not necessarliy more energy. Trad bowhunter here too, you will do just fine with your load, especially with the archers mindset!

[kungfustyle]

everything looks good. I would like to see a follow up with a fresh harvest picture.

[Markbo]

I would lime to see what the experts a t the other site say when he posts a harvest pic there. ;)

[Digital Dan]

Been watching this thread for a spell and found myself amazed by the ethical dogma on the other site. Sad commentary is the best I can come up with. Not a member over there, no plans of opening that door, but if anyone here is, well, post this over there and let 'em know I haven't been confused by emotion in quite a few years.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN3596_zps474ade2b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN3596_zps474ade2b.jpg.html)

Yeah, that box says "CB". 1,000 pounds my achin' butt.

[43PU]

Well why it's not a 30-30, don't tell this deer I shot it with a load that registers 1700FPS out of my Garand. Ill tell you he didn't not once complain to me about it on the trip back home and we had a 30 min drive!!

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?292123-M1-Garand-Kills-again

[Hamish]

I think we all agree that elbow's load is plenty to get the job done. Craig, what went on in your thread "over there" basically had nothing to do with you or your load and everything to do with an ongoing reaction to excessive obtuse behavior and continued pontification of highly suspect information. He was banned here for the same thing.

Looking forward to seeing you post kills this Fall!

[Wolfer]

Like many here I've shot a lot of deer with multiple calibers from 22 LR to 338 mag. 10 or maybe more have been taken with 30 cal 311041 anywhere from 1650 to 1800 fps. None of the cast deer needed a second shot.
Ive shot several with a 45 colt. 250ish boolits from 925 to 1050 fps. Most will go 30/50 yds with one making it 70 yds.

Ive found if you put a hole in both lungs it doesn't much matter what you put it there with.

[ancientriflesmith]

Okay, today I'll go from years of being a lurker to participant in this excellent forum. Sorta tickles me to see so many young shooters discussing cast bullets (yes I'm going to have to start using the word BOOLITS or you'll shame me to death). It hasn't been a whole long time since it was hard to meet someone else that shot "lead" boolits. My brother and I started our hunting and trapping days with nothing but cast. This was late 1940s and we lived miles from any town in the middle of the National Forest. The only store bought ammo we had was .22 cal. and most of it shorts. The old rifles we had belonged to Uncles or Cousins on loan to us. The rifles were 92 Winchesters in 25-20, 32-20 and a 1894 Saddle ring carbine in 30WCF My favorite gun was a 1899 Savage take-down in 25-35, which today is still in my gun safe and shot regularly. The men folk in our family all rolled their own ammo using the old "tong tool" loaders and cast bullets made from molds that mostly came with the old rifles made in the 1890-1920 era. The lead we made the boolits from was whatever could be scrounged up. Even had some lead and antimony/silver ore from the surrounding mines. Grandpa had a forge in his blacksmith shop and he refined our bullet metal. Of course we knew nothing of BHN, gas checks or what it took to make a good bullet. We were not into MOA shooting. All we did was to kill the game we needed to feed the family and a Bobcat or wolf caught in a trap. The game would have been squirrels, coons, possums and wild pigs. Rarely a deer was killed because the early pioneers had practically eradicated the whitetail population during the depression and before. Someone mentioned the old Army Krag earlier, well that and the 30-06s were rich people's guns. We saw one occasionally and sometimes a hunter in our party would own a Remington pump rifle. Most everyone hunted with Marlins and Winchester lever guns. Y'all got to remember that was before the .308, .243 and all the necked down and necked up 06 derivatives. But about cast boolits. My brother and I have always reloaded and for the most part shot cast. Today I shoot cast in about every gun I own. Even in the ARs. In fact ARs in 450 BM and 300BLK are among the most accurate cast shooters I own. I'm still hung up on the .35 Rem 336, a custom 358 on 600 Rem, 9x57 Mauser, 45-70s, etc, etc. Your forum is a great place for all cast boolit shooters. Wow! learned a lot here myself. That proves that even a 70 year old dog can learn new tricks. Thanks whippersnappers for all information and experiences posted here.
Retired Navy SCPO, NRA Life Member, 56 Years custom riflesmith, Author, Civil War/Old West Historian

[ancientriflesmith]

Sorry Y'all. In the post above It appears I am 70 years old, in fact I meant to say I've been shooting cast for 70 years, I a bit older than 70, but I still load and shoot almost everyday. Just finished mixing 250# of cast alloy. That should last about 5 years. ha.
Ancientriflesmith

[Geezer in NH]

Sorry Y'all. In the post above It appears I am 70 years old, in fact I meant to say I've been shooting cast for 70 years, I a bit older than 70, but I still load and shoot almost everyday. Just finished mixing 250# of cast alloy. That should last about 5 years. ha.
Ancientriflesmith
Welcome aboard!!!!!!!

[Geezer in NH]

Hey Elbow your load works fine.

I bet you have read Patrick F. McManus.

[Wolfer]

Sorry Y'all. In the post above It appears I am 70 years old, in fact I meant to say I've been shooting cast for 70 years, I a bit older than 70, but I still load and shoot almost everyday. Just finished mixing 250# of cast alloy. That should last about 5 years. ha.
Ancientriflesmith
welcome aboard indeed!

[blikseme300]

On every forum I am or have been there are/were posters who had nothing good to say about anything anybody but themselves did. This does not make it a good or bad forum but it does annoy. Fortunately there are tools on these sites that can help but I have learned over the years to just mentally ignore them and not get myself worked up. Mostly these same people are all talk but no hat. Pictures of targets, score charts from contests or game taken are typically absent and all there is is noise as far as I am concerned. Just ignore them and keep chewing down on the venison.

[Hamish]

Welcome Senior Chief! Great post.

[ubetcha]

There are many good and knowledgeable people on that site which include Ed Harris for one, and then there are the PITA people too. This site is really no different. We have good knowledgeable people and the PITA here too. But we learn from both. Just have to learn to ignore or use the ignore button.
Anceintriflesmith welcome aboard. with that many years of knowledge behind you, please don't hesitate to give helpful information when needed. Thanks

[Outer Rondacker]

On every forum I am or have been there are/were posters who had nothing good to say about anything anybody but themselves did. This does not make it a good or bad forum but it does annoy. Fortunately there are tools on these sites that can help but I have learned over the years to just mentally ignore them and not get myself worked up. Mostly these same people are all talk but no hat. Pictures of targets, score charts from contests or game taken are typically absent and all there is is noise as far as I am concerned. Just ignore them and keep chewing down on the venison. You will find this to be more true when the topic is brand related or what cal is better. Some people just can not keep an open mind or are not willing to look past their face. For the most part this is a good forum. Lots of new younger shoot their mouth off guys but they come and go in trends.

Blikseme300 has summed it up very well.

While we are on 30/30. From where I stand the gun is and always was intended to shoot LEAD CAST bullets. It will be a cold day in heck I will ever pay for a Jacketed bullet to put in my thurdy thurdy.

I cast bullets therefor I shoot 10x more then my friends. I bet you are the same way.

[Elbow]

Well guys thank for the responses. Guess Ill stay here on this forum. Wealth of knowledge. BTW yes I have read MacManus!

[Tailhunter]

Guess Ill tell that deer i was eating last night that I'm sorry I inhumanly killed it with my .357 Marlin and lead cast. :sad:

[Geezer in NH]

Well guys thank for the responses. Guess Ill stay here on this forum. Wealth of knowledge. BTW yes I have read MacManus!

Very good! Knew it!!!!! Keep killing the deer and enjoy the savor of the feast.

[lobogunleather]

Been reloading since 1972, casting bullets since 1974. Been loading .30-30 Winchester with Lee C309-170F bullets cast of 50% wheel weights and 50% linotype metal, Hornady gas checks, 30 grains H335 for many years. Two sons, nine grandchildren, now two great-grandchildren, and none of them seem to have figured out that .30-30 ammo can be purchased, they just send the empties to old Grampa for reloading. Probably two or three tons of venison have gone into the freezers of my family.

Can't think of a better deer cartridge for use under 150 yards. Just have to put the bullet into the boiler works, then start pulling the hide off and cutting up the critter.

[kerreckt]

I shoot exactly the same cast bullet and powder charge combination. It has killed many deer in the Commonwealth of Virginia. I don't understand why the bashing. This combo shoots great in both my Marlin 336 and a buddy's Winchester 94.

[Swede44mag]

i just looked up lyman's reloading handbook 49th ed, that says imr4198, starting load 18.0gr for 1600fps, max load is 24.0gr for 2000fps. i don't have a chrony but i figure a 170gr boolit with 22gr goes roughly 1800fps. i'm pretty sure that it will kill a deer out to 150 yards away, probably a little more.

the 1000lb is complete horsepucky. i shoot alot of deer with a arrow that doesn't even come close to 1000lbs. i wonder what a 250gr 44 mag with a 7 1/2" barrel and a charge of unique going 1000fps has? i wonder if a 50cal flintlock has? 444 marlin? 45-70? horsepucky.

I shot a deer with my 454 Raging Bull with a XTP mag went straight through at approximately 1700fps the deer wondered around in the snow for a couple hundred yards and hid under some brush to die it was tasty the deer not the brush.
I shot another deer the next year with my S&W 29 44mag with a 240gr cast boolit at approximately 1000fps it ran past me I took a quick aim the deer went about 15ft and was DRT it was also tasty.
It is all about boolit/bullet placement.
If what you shoot is comfortable for you then go with it.
I promise not to tell the deer.

BTW both years my friends razed me about hunting with only a pistol both years I got a deer they only punched holes in the air.

[ancientriflesmith]

Y'all, I sincerely appreciate you hardy welcome to this board. Like I said, I've been lurking here for years. Some of you may remember "ArkyJack." His last post was in Nov. 2008, just a month before he passed with cancer. He was my older brother and was a 30-30 cast boolit nut. He hunted with Marlin 336 with old Ballard rifling and took many deer with Lyman's 170 gr. FP boolit. He was also fond of the .35 Rem in pre MicroGroove 336 and Lyman 200 gr. cast. I still hunt with cast boolits almost exclusively. Took 3 meat Bambies with cast this fall. One each with: 30-30 from a tower blind at 60 yds. 170 gr. Lyman GC, a culled 4 x 1, stalking with 45-70 loaded with Lyman 457124 around 50 yds., a button buck in food plot at 150 with AR-15,300 BO and Lee C312- 155 gr GC sized .310 BHN about 14, it was a double lung shot a little higher than i like but the meat dropped about 40 yds from hit but not much expansion at all. My son dropped and I mean DROPPED a medium doe at 156 yds. range measured, with AR-15, 450 BM, Lee ? 310 gr GC, 31 gr. W296, boolit BHN 14. He took photo of that bomb damage. Maybe I can get him to send it too me to post here. Long winded I know but just to say I agree that cast is here to stay. I'll be reading here even if not much more to say.
Thanks again for a very informative and interesting website.
I see everyone (nearly) posts words of wisdom at the end of post.
Can I just say..... The NRA is RED, WHITE and BLUE AMERICAN, if you aren't a member you damn well need to be....
ancientriflesmith

[birddog]

I'll load some of my 500 Jefferys up with the 575 gr LFN I got from Veral and may have just enough to get that cotton tail rabbit by bird feeder!!!!!
Charlie

[44man]

OK, NOW I am going to put in my 2 cents. First is thanks for the recipe since I have not killed a deer yet with my 30-30, hunted more with revolver thingys. Things are getting harder with age so I am going to use my Marlin next season so all info is appreciated. But yes a revolver will be also used. Too much love for them.
Most here use too big of a gun and I have pushed the 30-30 at them for a long time even though I never killed a deer with one---strange with something like 560 deer!
This will be an adventure for me since I have used everything else.
But by too big, I mean way too much energy and not the size of the boolit. WHY a .300 mag on a 150# deer at 50 yards????
Now I do believe in enough energy transmitted properly but not too much either.
I can't wait for next season.
I did poor last season with only 2 because I did not see many. I talked to a neighbor and he said he found dead deer stacked up on the hill, killed for crop damage. I hate that stuff, the farmer should let more hunt and the state should allow more to be killed in season. To give the farmer freedom to shoot them all is just wrong, the meat rots.

[6pt-sika]

I read the thread on the other forum and it appeared to me that one rather loud mouthed fellow from New York state was the cause of all the problems . This guy is a self proclaimed "professor at some institution of higher learning" . Anyway this is this guys way since he's an "educater" he feels as if his knowledge perceived or actual far surpasses anyone elses . I have thought the guy a whole anus for years . Personally if I were the OP I'd tell him thanks but no thanks .

[fastdadio]

I read the thread on the other forum and it appeared to me that one rather loud mouthed fellow from New York state was the cause of all the problems . This guy is a self proclaimed "professor at some institution of higher learning" . Anyway this is this guys way since he's an "educater" he feels as if his knowledge perceived or actual far surpasses anyone elses . I have thought the guy a whole anus for years . Personally if I were the OP I'd tell him thanks but no thanks .

Strange, but I notice alot of that pompus, narcissistic attitude coming from the east coast states. Still alot like the english I suppose. Likely decendents of those that remained loyal to the king.

[Gunnut 45/454]

My cast boolit load for my 336 Marlin is the exact same boolit 170gr Lee GC over 28 gr IMR 3031! Runs just shy of 1900 fps . Very accurate and I have no doubt what so ever it would take any deer out to 200 yards. It would punch right through both shoulders as well! I hunt Muleys with it . Just haven't had the chance yet to fill a tag maybe this year.:bigsmyl2:

[44man]

You fellas would not believe the dead deer I find here. Hunting shrooms in a little spot I found 10 one spring. Found a dozen on another property walking in the snow, explain how you lose deer in snow???? They don't look is why since the cannons they use should drop every deer. If it runs, they figure they missed so they wait for another.
The hardest thing is to make them drop down to a 30-30 but I did have luck making a young lady go UP to a 30-30. She used a .223 with factory loads of course, chose wrong and bullets would explode even without a bone hit.
But her and her father still confuse me when I can load cast for them, even made my own molds as well as having the Lyman. Why do they still buy factory "J" things? However the young lady is so happy with one of the best calibers for around here.
Then she passes on many deer, the big buck phobia thing to out do her dad I guess. We don't have trophy deer to speak of. Bad eating anyway! But I have taken doe in the past that went over 200# and they have gotten smaller over the years so SHOOT and get good meat.
Yes I have been a revolver hunter since I moved here and have about around 180 kills with them.
Done wrong on occasion with only a hole and also destroyed too much meat. Wrong choices even with a revolver boolit, dang a revolver can destroy a deer.
Still a 30-30 has to be the best choice as it has forever and with no experience myself, can you make a boolit too soft? I have been thinking of 75% WW and 25% pure. I hesitate with 50-50. I know darn well a revolver boolit too soft will grind meat like my big grinder. My 187 gr 30-30 boolit runs a little over 1900 fps from the Marlin. A fast kill does not mean destruction.
I will be working on it. Have to wait a year. The worst losses around here are from big magnums.
Guys shoot a few before season but stop so they have enough shots left because of cost. Nobody shoots all year. Recoil ruins them too.

[tdoyka]

44man,
what do you mean, "the worst losses around here are from big magnums."? everybody "knows" that a 398 super dooper mag will put down a deer drt!!! even with a gut shot!!! [smilie=l: sorry, 'nother sarcastic moment.

i know i should take the 30-30 out, but i'm having fun with the 30-40 krag. i'm using a 165gr ranch dog(clip on ww) and a charge of h4198. it goes roughly 1800fps from the muzzle. i'm really burnin barns with this one!!![smilie=l: last year i shot a doe at 93 yards and it was drt. she weighed about 150-160lbs and was good eating. the boolit entered on the shoulder, took two lungs and the heart, and it broke one rib on its way out, never to be found again.

i can see you taking it down to 75% ww and 25% pure. i'm using a 44 mag with 250gr mihek hp that is 1 in 40 using unique that goes from a 7.5" barrel about 1000fps.

[44man]

44man,
what do you mean, "the worst losses around here are from big magnums."? everybody "knows" that a 398 super dooper mag will put down a deer drt!!! even with a gut shot!!! [smilie=l: sorry, 'nother sarcastic moment.

i know i should take the 30-30 out, but i'm having fun with the 30-40 krag. i'm using a 165gr ranch dog(clip on ww) and a charge of h4198. it goes roughly 1800fps from the muzzle. i'm really burnin barns with this one!!![smilie=l: last year i shot a doe at 93 yards and it was drt. she weighed about 150-160lbs and was good eating. the boolit entered on the shoulder, took two lungs and the heart, and it broke one rib on its way out, never to be found again.

i can see you taking it down to 75% ww and 25% pure. i'm using a 44 mag with 250gr mihek hp that is 1 in 40 using unique that goes from a 7.5" barrel about 1000fps.
You have it and don't need velocity to kill clean. Nothing worked better for me then a ML with round balls.
Most here use .300 mags and they lose deer left and right. Blow a hole you can stick your head in but ragged tissue will seal fast while a clean cut will bleed. One nice buck I helped to find went a mile with a hole so huge and there was no blood. I knew where it was going was how we found it.
The 30-30 can turn a deer inside out too so it depends on the projectile you use. The key is the bullet/boolit.
My hunting work will never end because deer do not understand.

[tdoyka]

44man,
i am sorry. it was meant to be sarcastic. i never owned a magnum(well except the 44 rem mag). i have seen magnums, esp the 300 and 338 of all kinds, here in the woods of PA. it always amazed me to shoot a deer going under 50 yards while using a magnum. and then if it doesn't fall down dead, its mistakenly thought of as a miss.

i too have seen a bucket hole size wound on a deer, dead and sitting there for a few days. it does make me angry tho. before my stroke, i would gladly help track a wounded deer, esp if the "wounder" was family. i trailed one for 6 hours until it became too dark to see. i and the "wounder" picked up the trail and spent another 4 hours till we found it. that one was used by a 7mm mag, it hit on the front shoulder, broke apart into many,many little pieces and only took out one lung. i believe it was a 120gr ballistic tip, it was like 20 or so years ago, going as fast as you could push it(meaning the brass would stay intact, and no, i didn't load it). it was going probably 3400-3500fps. it took me close to 15+ years before i would even consider a ballistic tip, now i love them. that 7mm rem mag that my friend bought was traded for a model 7 in the much more sedate 7mm-08. every deer he has gotten either goes drt or 30-40 yards away.

and again, i am sorry.

[rodwha]

Maybe I missed it but what is the estimated velocity of the OP's load?

[barrabruce]

170 lee fp @ 1800 fps

[44man]

44man,
i am sorry. it was meant to be sarcastic. i never owned a magnum(well except the 44 rem mag). i have seen magnums, esp the 300 and 338 of all kinds, here in the woods of PA. it always amazed me to shoot a deer going under 50 yards while using a magnum. and then if it doesn't fall down dead, its mistakenly thought of as a miss.

i too have seen a bucket hole size wound on a deer, dead and sitting there for a few days. it does make me angry tho. before my stroke, i would gladly help track a wounded deer, esp if the "wounder" was family. i trailed one for 6 hours until it became too dark to see. i and the "wounder" picked up the trail and spent another 4 hours till we found it. that one was used by a 7mm mag, it hit on the front shoulder, broke apart into many,many little pieces and only took out one lung. i believe it was a 120gr ballistic tip, it was like 20 or so years ago, going as fast as you could push it(meaning the brass would stay intact, and no, i didn't load it). it was going probably 3400-3500fps. it took me close to 15+ years before i would even consider a ballistic tip, now i love them. that 7mm rem mag that my friend bought was traded for a model 7 in the much more sedate 7mm-08. every deer he has gotten either goes drt or 30-40 yards away.

and again, i am sorry.
Don't be sorry. You have seen it first hand and everyone here should read your post over and over.
You can hunt with me anytime and a big BBQ with many others would be my dream. We would starve with my gas grill though, need a whole hog cooker, smoker.

[rodwha]

170 lee fp @ 1800 fps

The fellow in question believes 1000 ft/lbs is necessary for a humane kill, which I don't buy knowing too many who use a patched ball from a muzzleloader. I didn't believe this at first also buying into the horsepower theory to some degree. But seeing dead deer with a ball having no more than 400 ft/lbs sold me.

However the difference, to me, is the caliber. A large hole does more damage and bleeds more readily. And I'll take a blunt nose every time, which his has.

I can understand why someone who buys into the horsepower theory. And I have seen how "underpowered" low sectional density projectiles can perform. My question then is how this bullet would perform on a 200 lb deer broadside, as well as frontal. The alloy would certainly play a tremendous part, and I suppose that's also important (pure lead, ideal alloy, and hard cast).

I'm quite interested as I keep contemplating a long range muzzleloader and don't want to need charts, a range finder, or anything else. I've just used the point blank system with a fair rough estimate of distance. A bit close aim a couple of inches low, or far aim a couple of inches high, though I generally look for no more than 4" from 0. Doing this with my 320 grn Lee REAL from my .50 cal Lyman puts me around 150 yds max, and I'd like 200 yds without using a sabot and Hornady bullet. That leaves smaller caliber, and I've been looking at .35-.40 caliber stuff. Looking at a hot .38-55 in a muzzleloader, though I'd use more powder.

Ive yet to buy Ned Roberts book (I'm not even at the stage to considering for the purchase - a handgun is likely next....).

[6pt-sika]

I was just researching something and dug up a couple old threads on my item of intrest . Anyway the fellow that caused the OP problems on the Cast Bullet Forum it seems was banned from this forum (castboolits.gunloads) a couple years back !

[blikseme300]

Yeah, about the negative poster, there is a difference between know-stuff and know-it-all. There appears to be parallel universes where quoting numbers beats experience where it matters.

[Hamish]

Yeah, about the negative poster, there is a difference between know-stuff and know-it-all. There appears to be parallel universes where quoting numbers beats experience where it matters.

DELETED. (it was the truth, but I didn't need to say *that* plainly,,,,.)

[44man]

I have killed deer with everything you can tote and even a .22. It has always been what the bullet/boolit does and never all the fancy figures with placement.
However I have killed at least 6 deer in PA with healed in .22 bullets that passed through both lungs and 3 deer with 6" of arrow with broad heads in the chest, healthy and healed. The animal is very tough. But you do not need tons of energy, just right will do it every time.
Yes I lost deer when wrong and it still pains me. But I learn and that will never stop. I had placement but something was off with the boolits. I thought too much and read too much and thought speed solves it. I have been wrong too many times. I have been so stupid at times so i do not read junk anymore.
I depend on you fellas and experience with a different gun but don't tell me I need 3500 fps.

[6pt-sika]

However I have killed at least 6 deer in PA with healed in .22 bullets that passed through both lungs and 3 deer with 6" of arrow with broad heads in the chest, healthy and healed.

I "had" a friend in the Poconos of PA that I hunted with some back ten or so years ago that from time to time used a Remington 600 in 222 REM with factory 50 grain loads and he killed some big bodied bucks shooting them behind the shoulders and thru the lungs . I think he said they never went much over 50 yards after the shot . I have yet to try one with a 22 centerfire but I suspect I will eventually with a 22-250AI I have during damage control season .

[dk17hmr]

I kill alot of stuff with things that shouldn't work. V-max and Amax bullets on big game, 125gr Nosler ballistic tips out of a 30-06 as fast as I can safely push them, calibers that are too small, too big, too fast, too slow, too far.....you name it I have probably done it or been part of it when it comes to killing animals. Honestly I don't really care what people think about it anymore. All I know is whatever I'm doing is working because we don't eat store bought red meat in my house.

I filled 5 out of 6 big game tags last year, three of those tags were filled with Amax bullets two of which were fired from a 22-250.

I say run what you want if you are confident in your ability and let people talk all they want just remind them it's rude to speak with a mouth full of deer meat.

[kiwi]

I cast and sell a Mihec .30 cal 150 grain HP boolit, most of the people buying them use them for subsonic loads, one of my customers has shot 20 deer in the last year with them all head shots unfortunately, he says he will try some body shots next time, some of the other customers are reporting clean kills out to 100 metres on deer and feral goats one guy has killed a goat at 187 metres, only a few have recovered boolits most are through and through, the majority of shots are inside 100 metres,
The lead mix is 50/50 WW/lead + 2% tin,
So a great deal of horse power from a magnum is wasted or used up destroying meat, the few recovered boolits I have seen have all mushroomed perfectly to about .4"
I don't know how many I have sold but last year I bought over 15000 .30 cal gas checks most were used on this boolit and a NOE 316299 New Zealanders love their .303 BRITS
there does not seem to be a negative side to hunting with boolits you just have to stalk closer and make sure of you shot.

[44man]

You fellas make too much sense.
Killed many deer with 7mm pistols and 139 gr spire points, then I lost one. Perfect hit from a Lone Eagle in 7mm-08, found lung tissue hanging from a tree but she never stopped, ran out of blood after over a mile and checked both sides of the trail but there were so many tracks in the trail I could not tell one deer from another.
Same bullet in a .280 was so bad I sold the rifle. I never knew they made grenades so small!
Seen a friend turn a deer inside out with a 30-30 and factory loads.
Anything works with cast if you adjust for distance and velocity but like jacketed, all conditions change so a pile of mush at 20 yards will need that boolit at 150.
Balance is having meat without a lost deer. I hate a deer bloodshot head to tail like it was hit with a .577 Nitro Express SP.
Many hunters do not butcher and take a mess to a butcher to process. All the hunter knows is "the animal dropped."
The hard part is to get it right.

[tdoyka]

i used to hunt deer in the most nasty parts of brush country in swPA. 50 yards is considered wayout there. 20-30 yards is more common. a 30-30(or 35rem) in a lever gun is about right. i killed alot of deer with my m94 in thutry-thurty with factory and handloaded ammo. i can no longer get to brush country because of my stroke, but i do set up outside of brush were i can.

i also use a 30-40 krag which it is downloaded to about 1800fps with a 165gr ranch dog. if i could go and use the brush(like i could do:() i would use my 30-30 with 165gr rd., my ranch dog(165gr) is about 173gr using a coww(about 12bhn), without a doubt.

i used to use either a 270 with a 130gr ballistic tip or 6.5 creedmoor with a 120gr ballistic tip, both in the same brush. they both killed deer, but the meat loss was too much. i would hit them in the shoulder, thru the ribs, into the lungs and heart and stop there. the bullet just fragmented as soon as the shoulder was touched, sending fragments into both the lungs and heart(making heart & lung soup) while the shoulder was totally destroyed. the off side rib cage was peppered by bone and bullet fragments. i did shoot a couple that were off the shoulder(right under the armpit) and the bt did the same thing. now the bt does not fragment 100 +/- yards away, but for 50 yards and under its like a grenade.

[krag35]

I'm shooting Lyman's 31141 cast out of 50/50 WW/Pb. Over 22.0 grains of AAC 2015. I use a Large Pistol primer usually WLP. It's accurate out of my peep sighted Revelation 30-30. I would not hesitate to hunt deer with it.

[44man]

I load for a friend for his 30-06 and he uses only BT's but ruins deer. Says where he hunts, he has to drop deer because if it runs, someone else will be cutting it.
He now lives in Michigan and will come to WV with bullets and powder and hundreds of cases. I set him up for years but he still brings BT's.
The thing I hate is stealing. Find a fresh kill, it is not yours, wait for the hunter or look for him. best is to gut it and then find a guy tracking.
Only once did we take a deer that a neighbor shot and he never got out of his stand. My buddy heard a shot and seen the deer come into the thick but did not come out. I found the buck, gut shot. We could see the guy in his stand and he never got out. We waited so I told Don to take it. I find so many deer rotting where I hunt that I quit going a few doors away to give the deer to the shooter. I don't need it or want it but his ethics suck so I will give the deer away. A real hunter will drop the hammer and never give up but to sit and wait for another to cripple since a deer must drop or you missed disgusts me. Any deer from him to die where I hunt will be given away. I refuse to go get him if he does not track. I will help him if he needs it. I have heard 6 quick shots and he never gets down to look.

[Good Cheer]

Have killed deer with my 30-30 and 300 Sav. using that same boolit. Guess no one told me before hand that it would not work.Larry

Dang it all. Don't you hate when that happens.

[sfcairborne]

KiWi, Got the same mold for my 30/30. Great mold. Currently my favorite for Rem 700 blackout

[Ramjet-SS]

I use a bullet cast from the Accurate mould 170 grain FN and load it over 29.6 grains of LeverRevolution powder. I get 1950 FPS from my Mossberg 464 XPS and it has a Std deviation of only 9 FPS with a 10 shot string. It shoots 1.5" at 75 yards. Takes deer down with ease and does mucho damage internally where it is supposed to.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-170C-D.png

[popper]

174191 with 9 gr Unique gets this @ 100, ACWW, ~15% energy drop 174192 Group is about the same as @ 50, just more drop. GC version does about the same but recoil drives it 6" high. Sure was hot this morning.

[Texas by God]

I "had" a friend in the Poconos of PA that I hunted with some back ten or so years ago that from time to time used a Remington 600 in 222 REM with factory 50 grain loads and he killed some big bodied bucks shooting them behind the shoulders and thru the lungs . I think he said they never went much over 50 yards after the shot . I have yet to try one with a 22 centerfire but I suspect I will eventually with a 22-250AI I have during damage control season . Fear not. The 22-250 is an excellent deer cartridge. High speed blowout of the lungs works and no meat wasted. My favorite cartridge since 1972. Best, Thomas.