Do you really need a powder check die?

[1845greyhounds]

Does anyone have 1st hand experience with a Dillon or other auto-indexing progressive press failing to charge the case when fully stroked? If yes, what type of press and what happened?

[Mike67]

On my RCBS Pro 2000 once the powder measure linkage came loose. Didn't notice for at least five rounds. It never happened before and hasn't since. Of course in this case I took my eyes off of the powder measure and powder check something you cannot allow to happen. If your tired or distracted don't load or you'll be tearing down ammo and that's the least costly thing that will happen. The worst case is obviously squib, blown up weapon, injury, or death. As far as needing a powder check, well on the Pro 2000 yes, counter clockwise rotation takes the case to the right rear of the press after charging. On a Dillon 450/550 the charged case is in the left front where you can visually inspect it so no need for a mechanical powder check. Hornady LNL AP same thing the case is at the front of the press where charge can be visually verified. Beyond those three presses I'm of no help don't own or have not used the others.

[lefty o]

do you absolutely need it, no, is it a good idea- YES! on the auto index presses, you can double charge cases if you short stroke it. for the small price, consider it good insurance.

[noylj]

On manual indexing machines, you can not only double charge if you short stroke, but also if you forget to index it yourself.
No, you don't need it. After all, if you NEEDED it, it would come with the measure/die set/press.
I am sure, like every other reloader, you ALWAYS look in the case before placing a bullet on the charged case--right? I mean, a basic safety feature like that must be done by all people.
And, machines, like people, always work right, first time and every time.
Just like all progressive presses always seat primers correctly, they always charge the cases correctly.
I mean, this is a perfect world.
This is one reason I really like the Hornady L-N-L for a progressive--the charged case is under the reloader's nose and inspection is EASY. Of course, many still forget to look all the time, but at least you don't have to arrange mirrors or cameras or get up and bend over and twist your head trying to inspect a charged case with a Hornady.
I prefer the RCBS Lock-Out die (another reason I would not own a press with only four die stations), but if it didn't exist, I would use the Dillon Powder Check system. Something that DOES NOT rely on me looking at it.

[1845greyhounds]

Don't get me wrong noylj, I recently made the same arguments about double charges with manually indexing presses that you made. In fact, those arguments convinced me that I should acquire an auto-indexing press. Now I'm pondering how many stations I would use. I have a lot of experience loading on Dillon SDB's and I know it's easy to short stroke the press and NOT charge the case. I've never experienced any condition that would allow a double charge, which is part of why I made my original post. I'd like to know if anyone has experienced that.

FWIW, I currently load on a 550 and purposely use high volume powder so a double charge overflows the case.

[steelworker]

I have the Dillon Powder Checker set up on my 650. I wont load without it. I really don't see how you can get a double charge if you're operating the press correctly and the PM is working correctly. A squib round is more of a concern to me.

[Petrol & Powder]

No. - next question.

[Outer Rondacker]

I have found with the modern day new reloader its all about SAVING MONEY. So they are buying powders that use the least for the best bang for the buck. Like TiteGroup. For this reason I would say spend the 25 bucks and get a powder cop. I tend to use powders that more fill the case but then again I have some that could be double if not careful. Lights and mirrors are your friend on a reloading press.

Need no but will it help a new guy yes. Even a seasoned reloader likes safety.

[cheese1566]

My advice, GO SLOW!

progressives are nice, I have several and used them for years, but what most of have on our benches are not really high volume machines. Yes, with bullet and case feeders you can really crNk out rounds, but does most of have to? I can get my 4x4 Ford F-150 up to 100mph, but it really isn't built for high speed....

go slow, and take time. It's not the quantity,,,but the quality !!

( yes, I have RCBS LockOut dies on my mine for pistol loading. They will stop the final upward ram travel if an out of spec charge is in the case. I found a couple dificient loads with little powder a couple times, but seldom a double charge. That's over the loading of 20 years.)

[rpludwig]

yes, caught a dbl & no charge from short stroke recently...first ever after 40 yrs reloading, glad the lockout die was in place...necessary/inexpensive insurance!

[1845greyhounds]

yes, caught a dbl & no charge from short stroke recently...first ever after 40 yrs reloading, glad the lockout die was in place...necessary/inexpensive insurance!
What brand and model press?

[dudel]

You don't need it if you pay attention to what you're doing. Might be more useful when using a stick powder that doesn't meter well; but then you knew that powder wouldn't meter well, so you should be even more vigilant.

One way to make double charges easy to detect, is to use a powder that uses more than half the case capacity (a good ideas regardless). A double charge will then overflow the case (assuming you are paying attention). A missing powder charge is caught by looking at each case before the projectile is placed. I have a light on my 550b so I can see into the case after the charge is dropped.

IMHO, if your powder check die activates, it's because you were NOT paying attention to the process.

[osteodoc08]

Do you NEED a powder check die? No, you don't.

Is it a good idea to have a safeguard in place when we're talking about making ammunition? Absolutely. I ordered one with my recent XL650 order.

ive gotten along without one for years. I can recall only 1 or 2 squibs in 25-30 years. But it is unobtrusive, and is a sound safeguard measure. So I guess the question begs to ask, why not?

[lefty o]

IMHO, if your powder check die activates, it's because you were NOT paying attention to the process.
thats exactly what its there for. sorta like saying you dont need seatbelts in your car, dont need them if your paying attention. if you are 100% focussed 100% of the time yup you dont need it, but like most people what happens that .1% when something happens to distract you. its cheap insurance.

[ole 5 hole group]

You only need it, if you think you need it. Every reloader I'm personally acquainted with doesn't feel the need.

You should know your press - when your press handle doesn't function properly it's because of a problem - after you clear the problem, you remove the case that was suppose to get the powder charge - dump the charge (back into the hopper) and just leave that station empty and keep on truckin. It's not rocket science.

Only on the internet have I seen pictures of a progressive press with enough Christmas lights, mirrors and other gagets attached to it all in the name of safety. I often wonder what their lawnmower looks like?;)

[jmorris]

Does anyone have 1st hand experience with a Dillon or other auto-indexing progressive press failing to charge the case when fully stroked? If yes, what type of press and what happened?


Yes, powder bridging has caused failure to charge cases with manual measures and Dillon/Hornady progressive presses I have used. Before Dillon added the fail safe devices and other progressives currently can also double charge cases of the operator makes an error. The only press that eliminates the possibility of that is the 1050 that has a ratchet that prevents anything except full and complete strokes.

That said no they are not "must have" or all presses would come with them and the simple fact is that no presses come with them.

I use them on every press I can, redundant safety. Kind of like flicking on the safety of a pistol even though I don't have my finger on the trigger.

[rda72927]

Is it needed? No. I have a VERY old Hornady ProJector and I use a powder check die. It is just part of my process, I watch that little stem rise. I KNOW that step is completed. No question, no doubt in my mind. No checking with a light or wondering if it will be a squib or on a pistol a double throw. Just one less thing to worry about and a VERY simple check device.

[OS OK]

What brand and model press?

I've done that too…I think it is because of the 1/2 click rotation on the way up and the 1/2 rotation on the way down…It's a Hornady LNL. Hornady claims that moving the turret in a 1/2 click rotation it helps to not sling powder out of the cases?
Ever so often I'll get a straight walled case that doesn't want to enter the sizing die and I have to fiddle with it…If I quit and drop the press back down, well the shell plate will advance 1 full slot of rotation and the case that was to go into the expander and get its powder didn't get it.
This is when you have to pause for a second and look at the entire process, not just the case causing trouble at the size die, and, it is here that the Powder Lockout Die comes in handy because it doesn't get flustered like I do sometimes.

OS OK

[EddieNFL]

Somehow we survived without them for a century? longer? I have a couple that were included in a package deal. Nothing wrong with using one, but I'll never stop looking in the case. Batteries die, mechanical devices fail. When my eyes stop working, well...

[1845greyhounds]

... powder check die.... But it is unobtrusive, and is a sound safeguard measure. So I guess the question begs to ask, why not?

I'm not opposed to it, and from this thread it seems the primary value is avoiding squibs. The need or want of it is a consideration when selecting a press because it takes up 1 die station AND indexes the bullet loading location 1 position. Indexing the bullet loading location 1 step may necessitate use of a bullet feeder and possibly a combo seat/crimp die (unless the GSI feeder/seater is used on a 650). Too bad dillon doesn't make a 6 station press. The 1050 is a little too much for me and the 650 doesn't have as many stations as I'd really like.

[ReloaderFred]

I didn't think I needed one for the first 750,000+ rounds of ammunition I loaded. And then, in the world championships for the venue I shoot in, I had my first ever squib and lost 9 rounds. And that was after driving three days each way for the match, plus all the motel and other expenses. As soon as I got home, I ordered the RCBS Lock Out die for all my straight wall pistol cases.

This is for use on my Hornady LnL AP, (I have several other presses, but this one gets the most use) and what I found was the powder measure would occasionally stick in the upper position and not return on the down stroke, and unless I was looking at it, rather than the cases and bullets, I evidently didn't notice the condition. I thoroughly cleaned the sliding portion the powder measure goes up and down on, added another spring, and installed the Lock Out Die. It has since caught two more cases that didn't get their powder charge, and I'm now over 850,000 loaded rounds, so my answer to the question is for me, it's better to have than not have.

In my case, it was an expensive, and embarrassing, experience.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[jmorris]

Yep, you never need one until after you needed it.

Why I run them on everything I can despite never having had a squib or double. Seemed to make sense to me as I have never read a squib or kaboom thread that was caused by having a PC die.

[Plate plinker]

Ditto to j morris' comments. I run them on every caliber I can for the same reason it is cheap insurance. Also if you are going high volume it is much better than puling down 200 or more loaded cartridges. I often load batches of 1000 or more and it is peace of mind.

[ole 5 hole group]

Well, having that type of a problem on an LnL is extremely unusual to say the least. Never heard of that one before, so on those particular days, if you didn't have bad luck, you wouldn't have had any luck at all.;)


The LnL is usually a very dependable progressive with minimal maintenance. If you're loading a couple hundred thousand rounds a year, I'd suggest giving a squirt of powder graphite to the powder cylinder and metal portion surrounding the cylinder to assist in keeping the powder throws spot on.

[David2011]

My advice, GO SLOW!


go slow, and take time. It's not the quantity,,,but the quality !!

( yes, I have RCBS LockOut dies on my mine for pistol loading. They will stop the final upward ram travel if an out of spec charge is in the case. I found a couple dificient loads with little powder a couple times, but seldom a double charge. That's over the loading of 20 years.)

Sometimes people buy a progressive press for the speed. If I wanted slow I could still be using a single stage or Square Deal B. When it comes to loading Run-n-Gun handgun ammunition speed is definitely a factory. The quality is the same whether I load 300 rounds in an hour or in 20 minutes. I like having the powder check on my Dillon 650 because I prefer to load at least the .40 S&W at a high speed.

I also use the powder checker when loading with extruded powders that are prone to bridging. Since these are often rifle powders going into bottlenecked cases it's much harder to look down into the cases so the extra help is appreciated.

David

[OS OK]

Well, having that type of a problem on an LnL is extremely unusual to say the least. Never heard of that one before, so on those particular days, if you didn't have bad luck, you wouldn't have had any luck at all.;)


The LnL is usually a very dependable progressive with minimal maintenance. If you're loading a couple hundred thousand rounds a year, I'd suggest giving a squirt of powder graphite to the powder cylinder and metal portion surrounding the cylinder to assist in keeping the powder throws spot on.

Graphite is a ready known cure…the problem is with the weight 'off ballance' of the powder throw, then a pound of graphite will not cure the problem. It wears an oblong vertically in the cylinder of the bottom slide tube. When it starts hanging in the up position it's time to rotate it about 90 degrees so the imbalance wears on a new area and acts right, then 'flair' changes and you have to re-adjust the whole assembly, Pain in the Butt. The real cure would be to 'harden' that bottom tube.

[ReloaderFred]

I use dry lube on the sliding tube for my LnL powder measure, but the thing that helped the most was the addition of another spring. The lugs are already there, so I just added the appropriate spring to those two lugs and it helped immensely.

The Lock Out Die also helps, since I tend to load my ammunition in batches of 1,000 to 2,000. Even the most diligent of observers can miss a case once in awhile, but the Lock Out Die doesn't.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Kevin Rohrer]

No, I do not need a powder check die. That is what the Mark-1 Eyeball is for.

And, No, I have not had a problem using my 550 powder measure when correctly setup.

[Smoke4320]

Yep, you never need one until after you needed it.

Why I run them on everything I can despite never having had a squib or double. Seemed to make sense to me as I have never read a squib or kaboom thread that was caused by having a PC die.

Could not have been said better or shorter :) :)
mine has saved me several times ..

[warf73]

When the girlfriend purchased me a Dillon XL650 for xmas she asked about the Powder cop and she bought one. It's great once you get everything set up and running, and I highly recommend one for a first time user of the 650.

My personal experience was after I just got up and going with the 650 loading 380acp, had a 9mm get caught in the sizing die. When the 9mm brass went in the sizing die about half way up I stopped. I pulled down just enough to clear the problem out. I didn't notice when I came back down that powder was thrown already, so I went back up to finish seating and crimping. Once that case came around the cop sounded off I stopped and scaled the charged. It wasn't a full double but enough to be over max charge by almost 2 grains.

That one time made me more aware of what is going on with the 650 and now I use more caution. Not saying I reload recklessly but I was in a good rhythm and one thing threw it all off. Other than that one time when I started using the press, was the only time the checker has went off and me not expecting it.
Out of all the ammo I've loaded on the 550 may it have been rifle or handgun I’ve never had an issue of double or squib loads.
Just because it has never happened doesn't mean it won't or can't.

Never used one on the 550, but now with the 650 YES I us it and find it was worth every penny spent.