Are your groups better with cast or jacketed?

[tazman]

I always assumed that using a good grade of jacketed bullets would give you better groups than cast, at least with full power loads. Apparently I was mistaken.
I bought a couple of boxes of Hornady XTP 158 grain hollow points for use in my 38 specials. I loaded some at full power and some at +P for testing.
To my surprise, they did not group nearly as well as what I am used to from my guns(S&W 14, S&W 15).
I was testing rested at 10 yards and was expecting one ragged hole. What I got was a group nearly 3.5 inches across.
While this is adequate(barely) for defensive purposes, I expected much better.
My cast boolit target loads do much better as the following target shows.
160576
My full power cast loads are only slightly larger.
Using this same target, the jacketed loads hold the black ring and the +P loads hold the inner white ring.
I was wondering if this is normal or if something else is in play that I have missed.

[noisewaterphd]

Depends on the gun, and the bullet variables.

XTP's are generally very accurate for me, but if we assume a quality cast, I have more "bughole" loads using good 'ol lubed lead than any other style bullet.

In pistols.

In rifles, I can accomplish some pretty amazing (to me) things with cast projectiles, but I have more sub MOA loads using quality, commercial, jacketed bullets than with my own cast.

[NSB]

Having shot handgun competition for many, many years...and doing very well at it, the Hornady XTP's will shoot better every time. Ask your top handgun shooters which shoots best. You can get some good groups with cast but at any kind of distance the jacketed will do better every time. Ten yards and the like don't prove anything. I've owned two Bill Davis revolvers that would shoot ten shots into less than an inch at fifty yards. That's with 158g XTP's. You'll never do that with cast. Not knocking cast, they are very effective and shoot well enough but not as good as a quality jacketed bullet out of a good gun by a good shooter. Back up to fifty yards and compare the two. One other thing....you need to find the best load in each. I can make a jacketed bullet shoot bad if I try hard enough. It's a lot easier to do with cast.

[Blackwater]

Depends on the gun and loads, and how "in a hurry" I was when casting. It can be either, for various reasons, not the least of which is how well I can see the sights on any given day, now.

[tazman]

Having shot handgun competition for many, many years...and doing very well at it, the Hornady XTP's will shoot better every time. Ask your top handgun shooters which shoots best. You can get some good groups with cast but at any kind of distance the jacketed will do better every time. Ten yards and the like don't prove anything. I've owned two Bill Davis revolvers that would shoot ten shots into less than an inch at fifty yards. That's with 158g XTP's. You'll never do that with cast. Not knocking cast, they are very effective and shoot well enough but not as good as a quality jacketed bullet out of a good gun by a good shooter. Back up to fifty yards and compare the two. One other thing....you need to find the best load in each. I can make a jacketed bullet shoot bad if I try hard enough. It's a lot easier to do with cast.

I would try that if I thought I could see well enough to make that worthwhile. My guns are bone stock with no trigger or action work at all. They will still shoot better than I do.
The results I got at 10 yards should be relevant, particularly since the difference was so dramatic. I can understand a cast group opening up at 50 yards, but I can't think the jacketed group would be staying the same size.
Besides, I need mine to be accurate at close range. 30-40 feet would be about the furthest I would be shooting in a self defense situation.
I know my limits in that regard.

[theleo]

Got into casting to work on becoming a better shot with my handguns. I'm better than I was when I shot jacketed bullets. The rifles that I have that are dialed in with jacketed bullets I'd never bother shooting cast in, and rifles I've dialed in with cast boolits I'd never bother with shooting jacketed rounds in. The lead eaters get fed lead, the copper eaters get fed copper. I prefer they not get digestion so I don't mix their diets.

[Petrol & Powder]

In a revolver I can generally get noticeably better groups with cast bullets. I'm not sure if that is a function of the lead bullet, the lower pressures to achieve the same velocities or some other factor. With pistols it depends on the gun and load.

[35remington]

Pay attention to what is used in competition where they don't mind extra accuracy and you'll have the answer to your question.

[tazman]

35remington--Not certain how you meant that.
I don't know of any discipline that doesn't want some extra accuracy. I know of handgunners in a couple of different competition styles that use either cast or jacketed depending on personal preference.
Where I am now, there aren't many competitions in any style nearby to check on.
My concern is that I believed using jacketed would get me a good group using almost any manual listed load combination. I wasn't expecting the jacketed to shoot groups over twice the size of my cast loads, particularly at relatively close range. I was wondering what I might have missed or if this just happens sometimes depending on the gun.
By the way, the load I used was CFE pistol 5.0 grains under a Hornady XTP 158 grain hollow point. That load works excellent when I use cast instead of jacketed. When I bumped it up to 5.3 grains for the +P load using the same XTP bullet, it worked much better but still not as good as my cast loads.

[Ithaca Gunner]

For my .45ACP's cast or swaged have been the more accurate bullet so far. My .45Colt and .44Magnums, all I've ever shot is cast through them, all I need.

[NSB]

In all my years of shooting and owning lots and lots of handguns.....several were custom built, I've never owned even one handgun that shot cast better than jacketed. Not even one. I've gotten some handguns to shoot quite well with cast but I've always been able to get them to shoot better with jacketed. Anyone who thinks that cast shoot better simply doesn't know how to reload or shoot good enough to tell the difference. Sorry, don't mean to call anyone's baby ugly, but that's the way it is. Nothing wrong with cast. They're cheaper, you get to "roll your own", they shoot very well in some guns, but in the end you can always do a bit better (or a lot better) using jacketed bullets.

[chutesnreloads]

If I'm understanding correctly....you're using the same loads for the XTP's that performed well with cast?Have you tried working up a load with different powders or even different charges of same powder?The XTP probably will shoot just as well at least as cast when it gets a load behind it that it likes.Not knocking your decision....I'd try the load that was working too but would be pleasantly surprised if it grouped as well rather than shocked it didn't.

[Preacher Jim]

I test accuracy of my loads using a ransom rest at 50 yards most of my handguns shoot cast loads well if I Tailor the load to the gun. Nsb has had great results with jacketed my results in honesty are about equal, with the exception of my hammerili 38spc and 52 smith it is cast wadcutter only in tried swaging halfjacket's wad cutters but they were not as accurate. My 1911's love cast H&G I just started testing cfe.pistol and results so far are that velocity is higher than my 50 year proven bullseye loads. I plan when the weather permitting to test the bullseye loads against the cfe.pistol loads with same bullets. Side note, squeezed and greased bullets do 1/2 inch better groups at 50 in my guns than the pc samples a friend sent me to test, 25 bullet a test do not make. So more testing there the velocity was higher by some 80 to 90 feet pre second with the pc.

[johnson1942]

are the cast bullets and the jacketed bullets the same length. if they are i have no answer. if the jacketed bullets is a different length than the cast, find jacketed bullets the same length as the cast ones and try them. length of bullet to twist is very very important.

[Garyshome]

Don't know can't afford jacketed.

[dubber123]

Having shot handgun competition for many, many years...and doing very well at it, the Hornady XTP's will shoot better every time. Ask your top handgun shooters which shoots best. You can get some good groups with cast but at any kind of distance the jacketed will do better every time. Ten yards and the like don't prove anything. I've owned two Bill Davis revolvers that would shoot ten shots into less than an inch at fifty yards. That's with 158g XTP's. You'll never do that with cast. Not knocking cast, they are very effective and shoot well enough but not as good as a quality jacketed bullet out of a good gun by a good shooter. Back up to fifty yards and compare the two. One other thing....you need to find the best load in each. I can make a jacketed bullet shoot bad if I try hard enough. It's a lot easier to do with cast.

As with most things in life, I wouldn't say "never do that with cast". My last 2 groups from my F/A .357 were right at 1" at 50 yards, iron sights and all. SOFT lead GC boolit at 1,500 fps. no less. It may get scoped to help remove the "Me" from the variables.

[sixshot]

Everything being equal, and thats pretty hard to do, quality loads, quality gun & quality shooter then jacketed will almost always out shoot cast. That being said, I'm a life time cast bullet shooter & have used them for plinking, hunting all over the world & in competition & they have never failed me. The slight difference I see in accuracy at handgun distance when hunting with an iron sighted revolver is so small that very few shooters can tell the difference in the field. I can make a quality cast bullet for pennies or buy a quality jacketed bullets for, sometimes $2 a pop.
At one time I had shot my way to #1 in the nation in "A" class revolver USPSA & #5 overall. At that time there was one Grandmaster & 3 Master shooters ahead of me, all I used was cast & I did it with a 6 1/2" 610 40 caliber revolver. Would a jacketed bullet have helped me, I doubt it. Only in the world of bullseye shooting can you really shoot the difference with iron sights in my opinion. When it comes to truly big game the only good jacketed bullets are made to act just like a good cast slug. I can make a cast bullet perform better on big game than any jacketed slug & have done so for many years in many western states including Alaska & also Africa. Deer, elk, moose, bears, antelope, lion, African plains game all have been taken with cast. Jacketed would also have worked, but again those that do, work just like a cast slug. And if I want a bit of expansion I just make a 2 part softnose cast.

Dick

[NSB]

Everything being equal, and thats pretty hard to do, quality loads, quality gun & quality shooter then jacketed will almost always out shoot cast. That being said, I'm a life time cast bullet shooter & have used them for plinking, hunting all over the world & in competition & they have never failed me. The slight difference I see in accuracy at handgun distance when hunting with an iron sighted revolver is so small that very few shooters can tell the difference in the field. I can make a quality cast bullet for pennies or buy a quality jacketed bullets for, sometimes $2 a pop.
At one time I had shot my way to #1 in the nation in "A" class revolver USPSA & #5 overall. At that time there was one Grandmaster & 3 Master shooters ahead of me, all I used was cast & I did it with a 6 1/2" 610 40 caliber revolver. Would a jacketed bullet have helped me, I doubt it. Only in the world of bullseye shooting can you really shoot the difference with iron sights in my opinion. When it comes to truly big game the only good jacketed bullets are made to act just like a good cast slug. I can make a cast bullet perform better on big game than any jacketed slug & have done so for many years in many western states including Alaska & also Africa. Deer, elk, moose, bears, antelope, lion, African plains game all have been taken with cast. Jacketed would also have worked, but again those that do, work just like a cast slug. And if I want a bit of expansion I just make a 2 part softnose cast.

Dick
Dick, I don't think we're too far off from each other's opinion/experience. Getting back to the OP about his groups at 10yds off the bench.....there is nothing to suggest that jacketed bullets are causing these 3.5" groups! Nothing. Yes, cast can shoot up to the shooters needs in almost all cases. However, I've always been able to wring a bit more out of the gun using jacketed. Was it necessary? Maybe not in all cases. The OP has a different problem that isn't the fault of using jacketed bullets and so far that problem hasn't been addressed for a certainty. FWIW, I've shot over fifty whitetails with Hornady XTP bullets over the last forty years and none of them got away. I've killed a few with cast but they weren't any deader either.

[35remington]

taz, when a single shot that gets out of the bull will cost you a match, and given the common tendency to include a flawed cast bullet despite our best efforts to discover those flaws, the jacketed bullet has shown itself on average to be less prone to the accuracy robbing outliers all match shooters fear.

Many shooting disciplines shoot large targets at close range. Ignore those. For example, pay attention to what the NRA Bullseye competitors use in big money or big prestige matches. Look up the last time a cast bullet won.

It will answer your question.

I can no doubt find instances where a single test of a jacketed bullet shot poorly, but that's not all jacketed bullets, nor all loads. The gentlemen in the exacting disciplines mentioned are shooting what works best for accuracy.

Do not posit a single experience as examples of the whole. Find out what the successful winners are doing. They prove a point far better than a bunch of casual shooters on an internet forum ever will, because for them accuracy matters all the time under the match conditions they shoot.

NSB, the Hornady XTP has been available to the public about 15 years less than your claimed period of usage. It was introduced in 1990.

[tazman]

35reminton--That's the kind of clarity I was looking for in an answer.
I guess I have some load development to do. The load I used was a load suggested by the powder manufacturer.
I have the latest manual from Hornady so I will check that and load accordingly. If I can get to the range soon, I will post results and see if things improve.

To date, the distances I have been shooting haven't required extreme accuracy. The cast boolits I have been loading have worked amazingly well. However my needs are going to change a bit in the near future. I want a good, accurate, jacketed bullet load to use. I was just surprised by the result I got from the original test.

[sixshot]

I agree, 3-4 inch groups with the XTP suggests another problem, it sure isn't the bullet. And as I stated, most always if you are looking for the very best accuracy a jacketed bullet will get you there. But, I also said the gun & mainly the shooter has to be up to the task using iron sights. If you use sub par loads & you aren't an accomplished shooter its hard to prove the difference. Good luck to all with whatever you shoot! Did kill one cow elk with a Speer Gold Dot 270 gr 44 slug, she was very dead & its a fine bullet, accuracy wasn't a concern, the shot was about 45-50 yds broadside & a cow elk is a big target. If a cast slug shoots 1" bigger groups at that distance I'm still eating backstraps.

Dick

[tazman]

I changed powders from CFE to Bullseye with the XTP 158 grain hollow point and took the guns to the range again. The Bullseye load was recommended by the current Hornady loading manual.
The groupings today were excellent in all the guns.
I tried the CFE, cast boolit load I had used previously and it worked just as well as before which was excellent.
It appears My guns don't like CFE behind jacketed bullets.

[JSH]

I would have to say my shooting is better overall due to cast.
Jeff

[Jersey Joe]

I shoot conventional pistol competitions for the last two years. I've only shot commercially cast LSWC, as do most of the ham and eggers. The top shooters are using JHP. That pretty much tells me the jacketed are more accurate. How much so? I'd guess not much unless your shooting for national records. BTW...the JHP are murder to score! No prefect wadcutter holes...

[44man]

Cast not shoot equal to or better. You need a stick aside your head!

[JSH]

IMHO, more times than not, good cast bullets are not for sale, at least very often. I have been given better cast bullets than I could buy, by generous folks here and yonder.

I have a few aces that I am good friends with do serious off hand testing of my home brewed projectiles. You don't get on the USA shootin team running at the back of the pack. Yes they shoot jacketed a majority of the time. So would I, if I had them supplied to me.
Jeff

[.22-10-45]

Back when I was shooting handgun Silhouette, I used a S&W 57 8 3/8" .41Mag. I shot the Lyman 410429 220 gr. swc. on chickens, pigs, & turkeys..50, 100, & 150 meters. For the 200 meter rams I could keep all shots on a paper ram silhouette..but didn't have any "wiggle room"..used Hornady 210gr. jacketed for these.

[Lance Boyle]

In all my years of shooting and owning lots and lots of handguns.....several were custom built, I've never owned even one handgun that shot cast better than jacketed. Not even one. I've gotten some handguns to shoot quite well with cast but I've always been able to get them to shoot better with jacketed. Anyone who thinks that cast shoot better simply doesn't know how to reload or shoot good enough to tell the difference. Sorry, don't mean to call anyone's baby ugly, but that's the way it is. Nothing wrong with cast. They're cheaper, you get to "roll your own", they shoot very well in some guns, but in the end you can always do a bit better (or a lot better) using jacketed bullets.

Ditto and to add, factory swaged bullets are pretty dang accurate too.

[osteodoc08]

If I cast consistently and then hand pick a group of cast, I've found I can approach, if not equal, production jacketed.

For or ease of use and accuracy, the XTP line has been my go to for years

[Don Fischer]

Next to the last time I bought jacketed bullet's for a handgun was inn the 1970's. Practiced with cast but carried jacketed for concealed. when i decided to get a concealed licence I got a box of jacketed bullet's. I shoot cast for practice and carry jacketed. Thinking about just carrying cast. I have never fired a hand gun at a target to see how the group. i'm never gonna shoot a handgun beyond maybe 50 yds anyway. So to practice I shoot at small blocks of wood or tin cans. I figure if I can consistently hit a tin can at 20 yds it's good to go for concealed carry. In my revolver's I shoot at the same cans but as far off as 50 yds, normally about 30 yds. So, at 20 yds, minute of chest suit's me!

[FergusonTO35]

I split the difference, my best groups usually happen with plated.

[tazman]

I split the difference, my best groups usually happen with plated.

Now that is funny.

[MT Chambers]

Most of my guns have never seen jacketed bullets, what are they?

[carolina sorillo]

Personally, I think it depends on how much time you put in load development. If you take the time to find "the load" your gun likes for both cast and jacketed, there will be little difference in group size at "defensive handgun distance". If you find "the load" in cast and just throw a load together for jacketed then chances are the cast load will do better. Like everything else in this ol' world, you get out of it what you put in it!

C.S

[6bg6ga]

My experience has been that I can obtain an accurate load for each gun based on working up a load. I can obtain very good accuracy with jacketed or cast and have seen very little difference but jacketed seems to be slightly better.