PARA USA, service

[flyingmonkey35]

Hello folks,


I need some help with PARA USA, I just got off the phone with them to report that my new 1911 expert has milling marks in the barrel causing server leading.

They stated that since i shoot reloads that will not warranty it at all.

WHAT THE HELL!

This is a obvious issue Quality control issue with the fire arm.

With a 6-8 week turnaround for service this makes me nervous to even send it in.


i hat to be out for that long just to have them tell me that they wont warranty there shi%y work.

any thoughts?

[lefty o]

never tell a manufacurer you shoot reloads. pretty much every user manual if you read it will clearly tell you to use only factory made ammunition, or even more clearly "shooting reloaded ammunition will void the warranty". even though people make it seem like the factory ammo only is a glock thing, its pretty much an every firearms manufacturer thing.

[Boolit_Head]

The chance of getting anything repaired by Para is nill since Remington took them over. They ended up purchasing my Expert back since they could not get parts to fix it.

[Electric88]

I'm going to agree with lefty on this one... You might have been able to get it warrantied (difficult to say, what with Para getting bought out) but once you let the cat out of the bag and tell them you reload, it ain't gonna happen. That's a major red flag to any gun manufacturer, and gives them an out from fixing something under warranty.

You could maybe call back a different day, hope to get a different operator and not say a word about reloads. Otherwise, the only real option is to buy a new barrel from a company such as Storm Lake. Sorry about your barrel!

[flyingmonkey35]

160479160481160479 any way i hate to lie to manufactures. but in this case it has nothing to do with the reload or factory ammo the effects are the same unless somehow they can prove in small claims court.


i emailed the gunsmith directly who will do the repair work (figures they dont to this in-house.) sent him the photos before i send this back i want to talk with them and not waste my time.

this is what i get for not inisting on tearing the gun apart at the gun show before i bought it.

if para wont help ill try to hunt down the dealer who i bought my gun threw and see if they can help me. if not ill buy a new barrel and never look at para again.

[Electric88]

Unfortunately it's not going to matter whether the reloads caused the issue or not. I see what you are saying, but because they stated that reloads void the warranty they have their way out. I hope I'm wrong in saying this, but I don't think Para is going to offer you any help whatsoever.

I'm not sure what a gunsmith would charge for time related to this sort of thing, but a drop-in barrel can be found pretty inexpensively. Again, good luck though!

[flyingmonkey35]

http://para-usa.com/2013/why/lifetime-warranty.php

no where in there warranty policy dose it make a comment aobut reloads.

]At PARA, we believe that providing you with the best pistol means that we stand behind that pistol 100% for as long as you own it. We will provide the original retail purchaser of any one of our pistols with necessary service, free of charge, for the lifetime of the pistol, where adjustment or repair is required due to any defect in manufacturing material or workmanship. This lifetime service policy is available for all Para pistols purchased after the start of the new millennium on January 1, 2001.

[Electric88]

Interesting... I stand corrected. Hopefully it works out for you!

[Mica_Hiebert]

Demand to talk to a supervisor.

[Wayne Smith]

Is Remington maintaining the Para gurarantee? Since mine was made in Canada that's two businesses away from mine being made, so I doubt it. Not that I need any.

[dubber123]

The barrel on my F/A .475 has chatter marks in it, my 1895 Cowboy looked like an old set of railroad tracks when new, my Springfield 1911 looked worse than yours. Just firelap it, enjoy the no leading, better accuracy and move on is my advice. Every manufacturer makes junk, and ALL of them hate to admit it or take care of it.

I have to ask, any idea what it slugs at? What diameter are your boolits? What are you using for lube?

[flyingmonkey35]

The barrel on my F/A .475 has chatter marks in it, my 1895 Cowboy looked like an old set of railroad tracks when new, my Springfield 1911 looked worse than yours. Just firelap it, enjoy the no leading, better accuracy and move on is my advice. Every manufacturer makes junk, and ALL of them hate to admit it or take care of it.

I have to ask, any idea what it slugs at? What diameter are your boolits? What are you using for lube?
Haven't slugged it.

Lee 230 GRB RN coww / espc powder coat.

Sized to .452
Over 4.7 grains of tight group



Have put about 1 k rounds down range.

No change

I have even shot factory loads out of it and get copper fouling.

I sent a email drictly to the gunsmith it they may not respond. I will call para again tomorrow if I don't hear back.

As most of you are right a drop in barrel would be cheaper and easier and less frustrating then this mess.

[dubber123]

Drop in barrel or firelap. Might be worth slugging, you could be .001" away from happiness if it is on the loose side.

[flyingmonkey35]

OK second call to para today. Noha refused to transfer me to a supervisor.

And they are unable to provide documentation to prove reloads void their warranty.

What's the next step folks.

[Boolit_Head]

If Justin is still there ask for him. He was very helpful for me.

[Electric88]

I'd call one more time, and if they still refuse to let you talk to a supervisor threaten to report them to the BBB.

[DougGuy]

You could send me the barrel and let me look at it. When I throat a .45 ACP barrel I usually give the customer .150" to .200" of freebore before the 2° leade in to the rifling starts. This may cure those chatter marks, and barrels throated in this manner shoot lights out!

A couple of the Glock guys have had me long throat their KKM and Lone Wolf barrels so they can seat out long and run .45 Super load data and these worked out quite well.

Just a thought, and a very affordable solution to keep using the Para barrel.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC02776crop640_zpsjbfhuerv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC02776crop640_zpsjbfhuerv.jpg.html)

Here's another one, Springfield RO barrel:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03632crop_zpswxlphffv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03632crop_zpswxlphffv.jpg.html)

[tja6435]

You could send me the barrel and let me look at it. When I throat a .45 ACP barrel I usually give the customer .150" to .200" of freebore before the 2° leade in to the rifling starts. This may cure those chatter marks, and barrels throated in this manner shoot lights out!

A couple of the Glock guys have had me long throat their KKM and Lone Wolf barrels so they can seat out long and run .45 Super load data and these worked out quite well.

Just a thought, and a very affordable solution to keep using the Para barrel.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC02776crop640_zpsjbfhuerv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC02776crop640_zpsjbfhuerv.jpg.html)

Here's another one, Springfield RO barrel:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03632crop_zpswxlphffv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03632crop_zpswxlphffv.jpg.html)

while I didn't have machining marks, Dougguy throated my SR1911 barrel and I am able to chamber and shoot every cast boolit I've tried in it since the work was done.

If you don't want to do that yet, I have a bore lap kit from LBT. I could send you some of the lapping compound or make up 100 boolits or so with the lapping compound on them for you to give that a try.

[DougGuy]

while I didn't have machining marks, Dougguy throated my SR1911 barrel and I am able to chamber and shoot every cast boolit I've tried in it since the work was done.

Basically, if it will cycle through the magazine, it will plunk in the barrel after I get finished with it. I have had some guys send me some dummy rounds they wanted to plunk, and some of those are amazingly long but they plunk or the barrel don't leave here!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03146_zps7d63b486.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03146_zps7d63b486.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/DSC04487_zps6qi3rtrp.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/DSC04487_zps6qi3rtrp.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC03645smaller_zpsh9zvodwz.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC03645smaller_zpsh9zvodwz.jpg.html)

[flyingmonkey35]

You could send me the barrel and let me look at it. When I throat a .45 ACP barrel I usually give the customer .150" to .200" of freebore before the 2° leade in to the rifling starts. This may cure those chatter marks, and barrels throated in this manner shoot lights out!

A couple of the Glock guys have had me long throat their KKM and Lone Wolf barrels so they can seat out long and run .45 Super load data and these worked out quite well.

Just a thought, and a very affordable solution to keep using the Para barrel.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC02776crop640_zpsjbfhuerv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/KKM%20Glock%2021%20for%2045%20Super/DSC02776crop640_zpsjbfhuerv.jpg.html)

Here's another one, Springfield RO barrel:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03632crop_zpswxlphffv.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/DSC03632crop_zpswxlphffv.jpg.html)
On sent

[flyingmonkey35]

So my luck with this gun just keeps getting worse and worse.

USPS lost my barrel. Yup I had tracking and all they can say is oops.

When I called they told me to go the local post office and that they were going to close the case. I asked to speak with a supervisor all of a sudden they changed their mind and said they would email the local post master for me.

I'm loosing faith.

[Thin Man]

Just yesterday I called Para to buy a complete recoil spring assembly for a P10-45. The P10's owner had replaced the original springs with Wolff springs, and his reassembled unit "self destructed" inside the pistol. The Wolff springs were mangled in the process. The Para rep stated they did not have, and cannot get, that assembly. He advised the P10 is out of production and they will not have any future parts available that are model specific for this and any other model they have dropped. He then mumbled something about having been acquired by Remington, and how their world was rapidly changing. BUT, he continued that Kimber may be able to help. He claimed the recoil spring assembly for the Kimber Ultra Carry 2 is identical to the Para P10-45, a drop-in fit. Off I go to Kimber. I got a rep on the line and asked to purchase the assembly (didn't mention anything about needing it for a Para). Not only did the rep find that assembly in his small parts bin, he would not me pay him for it! I offered, he declined. I have to say this experience has helped shape my opinions of both Remington and Kimber.

Thin Man

[flyingmonkey35]

So went into the local post office. Glad I did as the phone people closed the case on me.

Got the number for the local supervisor . phase 2 of this nightmare.

[BCgunworks]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160306/b2ebf38fa988c6b7dcddb1fcd88fcf8c.jpg

Got to love para. Isn't that a nice casting Seam?

[flyingmonkey35]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160306/b2ebf38fa988c6b7dcddb1fcd88fcf8c.jpg

Got to love para. Isn't that a nice casting Seam?
Looks like Hi-Point quality to me. But at least Hi-Point stands behind their warranty

[dgslyr]

Go to the Postal inspectors don't bother with the local post office.That may not do any good either.Once you say firearm or any part there of,or related to, your screwed. Unless one of the slugs threw it away or opened it because anything remotely pertaining to guns in the address, they might find it at some point.I got a Priority mail envelope,with a USPS money order in it 7 months after it was mailed once.Christmas before last the Saudi mail delivery jihad jerk threw away the entire neighborhoods Christmas presents.Went to the post office,when that turned out to be a waste of time I went to the Postal Inspectors.I was missing 3 packages at the time.I then threatened to go to my Congressman and I got a new letter carrier.No packages or insurance payment though.A few months later I kept getting mail for the right house number but the wrong street.I once again had mail missing.I have video cameras on the front of the house and looking at the mailbox.That did not help when they claimed delivery and no one was delivering mail on the video till hours later.Congressman again. I still don't have the same letter carrier two days in a row over a year later.I never use them for anything any more if I can help it. FEDEX

[dubber123]

Best I can tell you is learn how to fix your own stuff. Most manufacturers are pains to deal with, some are nightmares. You most likely had a fixable problem, now you have no barrel.

[DougGuy]

Barrels like this aren't even within SAAMI specs for the caliber. SAAMI calls for a .053" freebore in front of the chamber -before- the leade in to the rifling, and they call for a full .1108" of combined throat before the height of the lands are reached. That's nearly an eighth of an inch by the eye. Most modern barrels are lucky to have .040" worth of throat before the leade in, SAAMI calls for a j-word bullet at .452" and they specifically list a lead boolit at .453" which if you assemble to SAAMI specs will not plunk in the majority of modern 1911 barrels. How is a .452" boolit supposed to fit into a .4515" throat? It won't.

His is not the only problematic Para USA barrel I have had for throating. Another member's barrel came in to my shop so tight none of the pilots would fit in the lands, I had to special order a .4415" pilot to fit the PT&G carbide reamer just to throat this one barrel. Almost NEVER even have to use a .4420" pilot, most take a .4425" or .443" and I thought Kahr barrels were some of the tightest. Not so.

[dubber123]

Well Doug, I would bet a few hours would have cured his leading problem, which is what he is complaining of as I recall. Having to load short? Sure, get it throated. We ALL know someone who does that. Was it 6 barrels I sent you last time? My point is, it seemed like good advice was ignored, and now the problem is worse. Buy a good replacement barrel, and move on at this point.

My advice was, and still is, ALL manufacturers make ****. Some do it on a regular basis. Sending it back to the goofballs who screwed it up the first time makes no sense to me.

So sayeth Mr. Miracle worker. :)

[flyingmonkey35]

Yup dubber I was following everyone's adivce. Their advice was to have it fixed and then fire lap it.

I just had the bad luck of the mail losing it.

Sure I could buy all of the stuff I need to fix the barrel my self. But dougs price was awesome for the work and couldn't pass it up.

Even he didn't know if he could fix it.

So I got a new barrel. And will shoot it out. If have issues with it I'll save up and buy a really good one.

[DougGuy]

Actually he was sending it here for throating when it got lost in the mail. In one sense, I though they might have done him a favor and forced him to buy a better barrel. Not saying the new one won't need to be throated for cast, but the odds of getting a better barrel than the one that got lost are quite high.

[dubber123]

Well, I am partially to fault, I thought it was going back to Para. Sending it to Doug was a much better move, it stinks that it got lost in the mail. Short seating is indeed a crappy fix to a real problem, but it sometimes works. The leading I would bet could have been fixed with a firelapping and possibly a bump in size, although I haven't as yet seen a .45 ACP that couldn't get along with a .452" boolit.

Good luck to you on the new barrel, I'm pretty sure you will get it ironed out easily. Doug does do a nice job fixing the non existent throats if you run into that.

[flyingmonkey35]

I got my new barrel installed.

Cheap no name off of eBay . All I can afford right now.


Not bad at all.

Few fail to seat and a few fail to feed.

Will look up how to polish a feed ramp.

May need to check the crimp and adjust for new barrel.

But no leading so far.

25 feet
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160314/642e9b261d0b74882a2d0052142a074e.jpg




50 feet

163557

[DougGuy]

And then look what shows up today. I have to admit this is not the worst way to pack a cylinder or barrel, but it sure gave the guy who tossed a cylinder into a cardboard flat rate envelope and chunked it in the mail, a good run for his money.. I *ALWAYS* ship insured in a sfrb and tell my customers to ship this way too! And NO insurance??? Wha??????

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/dumb%20stuff/DSC04904%20Custom_zps5l0nafwo.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/dumb%20stuff/DSC04904%20Custom_zps5l0nafwo.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/dumb%20stuff/DSC04905%20Custom_zpsgtlc6dy3.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/dumb%20stuff/DSC04905%20Custom_zpsgtlc6dy3.jpg.html)

[flyingmonkey35]

Well I'll be honest. I was a bit short on cash when I sent it out to you. And as I have never had any issues before. ....


Let me know if you can fix it:-)

[DougGuy]

Getting it to shoot good won't be a problem at all. It has a wonky factory crown where they beveled the ends of the lands off before they get to the muzzle, and it has some divots dug out of the lands where a solid nosed reamer got into the rifling about .350" ahead of the chamber. The TiALN coated carbide reamer I use on hardened barrels has a fairly long 2° taper leading up to the lands, it will dress those marks out of the rifling without issue. The throat will need to be a tad longer to accomplish this but it will shoot lights out with the longer throat.

[flyingmonkey35]

Feel free to post before and after photo's.

[robertbank]

God almighty why you folks have to put up with your third world post office I will never know. I had a Dillon part sit in the LA post office terminal 14 days recently before it finally left for Vancouver than up here. I had some powder paint go from South Carolina to New York then to London England before being redirected back to Canada by the UK Post Office.

Paras warranty work was not much better when the Company ran out of Canada. Quality before the company was sold to US interests had fallen quite a bit before it left here.

Doug you do beautiful work. If I have a need you will be top of mind to do the work.

Bob

[DougGuy]

Doug you do beautiful work. If I have a need you will be top of mind to do the work.

Bob

Coming from you sir, I *know* that is quite the compliment for a fella to receive! Thank You!

I am using a reamer with a long very shallow 2° taper up from the freebore into the rifling, and the throats are coming out longer than any factory puts in a barrel, and I am finding that the long gradual taper into the groove diameter and gentle leade in to the rifling causes them to shoot cast like nobody's business!

There is a direct relationship between the resistance of the barrel or cylinder throat, and the pressure curve. The less resistance, two things happen. One, pressure is less, and two, the boolit gathers velocity much faster because there is less resistance forcing it into the rifling and the path through the throat is longer and smoother and man I'm here to tell you, IT WORKS! I have my own 1911s throated out long like this and they shoot lights out. I have gotten nothing but positive feedback from customers that have these longer throated barrels as well.

I'm getting questions about and requests for my reamer drawings and prints even. There are others who are looking at the photos I am posting and they too are catching on to the fact that there is now a different way of doing these and it is raising some eyebrows as to wonder why we never thought of this before?

[dubber123]

Doug did a Springfield, a S&W, a Kahr, a Ruger and 2 other .45 barrels on my last shipment to him. All were markedly improved, and will now chamber rounds loaded to the correct OAL. If the bore is rough, it might take a little firelapping, but you should be very happy with the end result.

I was nervous sending that many barrels out at once, knowing 6 firearms would be out of commission if the package got lost. I insured it for enough to put a VERY good aftermarket barrel in each one if that happened.

[flyingmonkey35]

OK here's some bad photo's.

Going to need to get my better camera out.

And some results.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160324/9c87520a877fa4b9d40fc0892fe2bb0a.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160324/0da25c4dcc39f48d6e035238120ec381.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160324/557261370dff983d8e2878ef015ee656.jpg