High volume lead smelting advice wanted

[Polishmike]

Hello Gents -

I own an indoor range/gun store and am starting a reloading company.
I currently purchase bullets (have an ammoload machine for loading) but have a Ballisti-Cast Mark II and an NV Vortex sizer on the way.

I just got the range mined and am now the proud owner of 32,000lbs of fired bullets (do I have to say boolits here?)

I obviously want to smelt the lead down to useful ingots. I've used the classic fish fryer before but don't think that will be too feasible as this is 6 months worth of lead and it would take me more than 6 months to smelt that with a fish fryer. What would you guys recommend? I'm sure there are commercial size furnaces but I don't want to spend another $20k right now.

160335

[osteodoc08]

Box it up and sell it here. Unless you want to get all the licensure to manufacture and sell boolits.

[Polishmike]

I already have the licenses/insurance/ect and use xtreme plated bullets in our reloads. I want to smelt it down and start using my own boolits.

[jcren]

There was a vendor here and on facebook that made slick bottom pour smelting furnaces "Satan's little Smelter" I believe. They even had custom rigs good for several hundred pounds.

[ashhoe]

Hello Gents -
I own an indoor range/gun store and am starting a reloading company.
I just got the range mined and am now the proud owner of 32,000lbs of fired bullets (do I have to say boolits here?)

I obviously want to smelt the lead down to useful ingots. I've used the classic fish fryer before but don't think that will be too feasible as this is 6 months worth of lead
That's one heck of an indoor range!
If I can still do math correctly, that's 284.1196347031963 180gr bullets per hour. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 6 months.
That's a lot of bullets.

[Smoke4320]

Absolutely check out Satan's little smelters
The bigger for you the better with that much lead

[osteodoc08]

I already have the licenses/insurance/ect and use xtreme plated bullets in our reloads. I want to smelt it down and start using my own boolits.

In that case, if youre wanting to do it yourself. The advice for the Little Smelter is a good one. Get a very large propane tank. And be sure to use your PPE.

[Polishmike]

Thanks guys - Exactly what I was looking for

[mgread]

How much would you sell a full medium flat rate box

[Outer Rondacker]

I do not think you understand just how much work you have in front of you. Better hire four more guys. Good luck.

[flyingmonkey35]

I hate to say this but.

You may want to give roto metals a call and see what kind of trade you can do for clean lead.


But if your doing it your self Satan's little smelter is the way to go.

And get the largest ingot mold that can fit in your pot safely.

[country gent]

You might look into a 250 lb out of date propane tank. cut it in half or just over half way weld 4 very solid legs under it and supports to keep them from kicking out under the wieght.A grate and coal fire with a blower you should be able to smelt 500 -600 lbs at a crack 2 pots a day. The big thing will be having enough ingot moulds to pour continuous while others are cooling and a rack or stand to hold them while working. Pour as big of ingot as will fit into your pot comfortably. A piece of channel iron cut 10* on ends ( allows for easy release of ingot) and flat steel for ends welded on 2-3 channels wide and 8-10" long should pour 5 lb ingots or so. A small piece of angle welded acros at 1 -2 places would make chop spots. You will want 10-15 of these so pouring and dumping is continuous with out stopping to wait for cooling. The operation would be heat pot of lead to melting. Flux and skim several time. Pour some small ingots and cool to get hardness and add antimony til to get alloy to level desired. Flux again and pour ingots The propane tank Im taliking about is upright and 3 foot or so in dia. This is probably goping to be a 2 man operation at least.

[Outpost75]

AND don't forget to separate out the jacket material, pull out the clad steel with a couple cow magnets, then sell the copper to a scrap dealer, worth about $1 a pound, or check the American Metal Market current ISRI scrap prices.

[Pb Burner]

Man....I wish I had a problem like that!
Sorry, no good advice from me, just drooling looking at that pic of all that lead.

[Polishmike]

Got a Satan smelter coming. Thanks guys!

Smelting, casting, sizing, coating (hi-tek) should keep 2-3 guys employed full time.

[mgread]

Got a Satan smelter coming. Thanks guys!

Smelting, casting, sizing, coating (hi-tek) should keep 2-3 guys employed full time.

Also be a good boss you and get the guy blood test every 4-6 week.
Got some good 3 ft fans to move lots and lots of air.
And safely gear for everyone that will be around.
And for god sakes do not do this indoor where you have a water sprinkler system.

[Polishmike]

Also be a good boss you and get the guy blood test every 4-6 week.
Got some good 3 ft fans to move lots and lots of air.
And safely gear for everyone that will be around.
And for god sakes do not do this indoor where you have a water sprinkler system.


We are doing it outside. All PPE will be provided (we do full Tyvek suits, leather aprons, steel toe boots, respirators, hi temp gloves, face shields, ect)

I'm one of the better guys ;)

[mgread]

I would still have a fans or 2. And get test because there be around it cold and have it on there skin. The range I go to make all employees get test every 2 month because they clean up the lean and all from the traps. Also just a better be safe then sorry later in life.
I smelt 3-400 lbs at a time and get test every 4-6 because I'm around it.

[maxreloader]

Hey Polishmike... would you mind PMing me the details on those bags you have the lead stored in? Those would work slick for a project I am working on. Thanks!

[ReloaderFred]

I'm not sure what size pot your Ballisti-Cast has, but for both my Master Caster and my Bullet Master, I smelt into 10 to 14 pound ingots and they're just the right size. By using the larger ingot molds, you'll be getting more ingots per hour of labor.

The last time I smelted down jacketed bullets, I got $2.25 a pound for #2 copper from my recycler for the copper jackets. I make sure to get all the lead out of the jackets, which is the hard part, and I use a large magnet to remove all the steel jackets, which I also recycle. The last price for steel jackets was .03 cents per pound, but I hate to see anything wasted, so it was worth it to haul them along.

A shaker table with a 1/4" wire mesh in it will get the excess lead out of the jackets when you skim them off the top of the melt. Just spread them over the mesh while still hot and give it a shake and all the molten lead will fall through the mesh (or stick to it). The resultant clean jackets more than pay for the labor of getting them clean.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[jeepvet]

Just a redneck idea that I have had rolling around in my head for a while. My son and I have talked about finding a sail boat keel to smelt. We thought about using a cast iron bathtub with several propane burners under it to melt the large chunks. What thoughts do y'all have about that idea? Is it going to be one of those "hold my beer, I want to try something" things?

[ReloaderFred]

I would think a cast iron bathtub full of lead, or even half full, would exceed the structural strength of the tub. I have visions of molten lead streams flowing from the shattered cast iron tub...........

Even a propane tank smelting pot will easily hold about 150 pounds of molten lead, if that gives you a reference point. Cast iron tubs are designed to hold about 400 pounds of human and water, so you'd exceed that in short order I would think. Cast iron is also very brittle, and not particularly thick in those tubs, and I don't have any idea what the porcelain would do under the heat and weight conditions it would have to endure.

For large smelting operations, a welded pot from 1/4" plate steel would be stronger, provided the welder does a good job. I'd also probably go with maybe 3/8" plate for the bottom. It certainly doesn't have to be round, so a rectangular vessel would work fine, as long as the supports are constructed in such a manner as to hold about twice the weight you figure you'll put in it. A bottom pour spout, or even a side pour spout, would be much preferable to ladling, in my opinion. I'm currently ladling from two propane pots with a 5 pound capacity ladle and it gets tiring after several hours..

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Geezer in NH]

That's one heck of an indoor range!
If I can still do math correctly, that's 284.1196347031963 180gr bullets per hour. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 6 months.
That's a lot of bullets.
for 1 position maybe its 15 to 20 positions?? :bigsmyl2: :kidding:

[jeepvet]

Thanks for the Gibbs slap Mr. ReloaderFred. Sometimes I over think stuff and sometimes I way under think them. As you so kindly pointed out, I have not thought out the bath tub idea very well. I can't imagine what even a half full bath tub of lead would weigh. Thanks for pulling my head out.

[ReloaderFred]

Not a problem. I'd hate to see anyone get badly burned from an accident.

Fred

[merlin101]

Hay jeepvet, ever think about using an old horizontal air compressor tank? Add some better legs and a big burner or two and you could even use the moisture drain as a bottom pour! Even a small craftsmen 20-30 gallon tank would make a nice pot and hold quite a bit.

[dikman]

Or a 100 lb propane tank, sliced lengthwise? It would probably need extra legs under it, of course, and several burners along its length. Perhaps you could call it a "Frankensmelter"!

[Dragonheart]

Attached are photos of my bottom pour smelting pot made out of an old propane cylinder. I can melt over 200 pounds of clean ingots fairly quick.
160617

[jeepvet]

I built a smelting pot out of a 25 pound propane tank much like the one that Dragonheart shows in post #28. mine is not quite as pretty because it is naked, but it works great. This is the thread I started when I built it. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?266779-Building-Bottom-Pour-Smelting-Pot

It holds a lot of lead and is awesome for wheel weights. But my son and I were talking about a sail boat keel. In order to get one of those into my pot it would have to be cut into pretty small chunks. Being a tad lazy, I was looking for something that would be safe, easy to make, cheap and big so that we would not have to make so many cuts.

This is probably just a dream but sometimes big money and a lot of fun come from small dreams. It is kind of hard to find a sail boat keel in the dead center of Texas. Fun to think about anyway.

[ReloaderFred]

Another source for big chunks of lead is the counter balances for forklifts. If you know of a company that salvages old forklifts, that may be another option for you, and they don't float on water...........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Sgtonory]

Got a Satan smelter coming. Thanks guys!

Smelting, casting, sizing, coating (hi-tek) should keep 2-3 guys employed full time.

That seems small for what you are doing. I did the same thing as you melting down indoor range scrap. About a thousand pounds a week. I used a 20 gallon pot that was used to melt lino type from a print shop. Holds 3 5 gallon buckets of range scrap = 300lbs or so of clean lead. The jackets etc take up a lot of room the bigger the mouth the better. Have anyway to use natural gas? Where are you located i may need a new job :)
You may want to look at adding some antimonty to your mix also my range scrap was only around 10bhn.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Polish Mike: another thought is to just smelt the lead a little more frequently. like once a month or so instead of waiting 6 months.

But it sounds like you already have the process sussed out.

Randy

[Polishmike]

Polish Mike: another thought is to just smelt the lead a little more frequently. like once a month or so instead of waiting 6 months.

But it sounds like you already have the process sussed out.

Randy

The rubber trap gets mined every 6 months. It costs too much to have it done more frequently then that.

I'll post pictures once everything starts moving along. Im going to do a few batches in the fish fryer next week just to get an idea of where the hardness is with this stuff. I assume it is going to be pretty low as most of this stuff is jacketed target ammo.

[AbluquerqueBullet,LLC]

Welcome to the forum.
What part of the world are you in?


I would recommend 2 pots one for refining and one for alloying. You will need to alloy the lead to make good bullets, the fill out will be difficult with the auto-cast machines. It will need to be VERY clean for the casters pot. So it does not clog the small dripper orifices. Fluxing with a powder flux is best for the machines from my experience.

A great lead smelter is a old bear brewing stand for heating the modified brew kegs. lead weights 94lbs per gallon so a 20qt stainless pot from local groceries store that is only about $15 will hold about 470lbs but safely 300-350lbs with plenty of room to stir and mix this is what i use. with the big $50 bayou banjo burner it will melt around 2000 lbs of ingredients a day. my brew stand has 3 of the burners but i only use one and have a dross bucket on one and a tool shelf on the other so if i need to i can go full crazy and bust out all 3 and the 15.5 gallon kegs and brew up . . 15X94='s ahh to much at once times 3. . yep to much to even care to do the math.

With the ballisti-cast machine did you get it with carrier bars that will allow you to use magma molds? the factory do not fit magma molds now they are special order only. and magma molds are often for sale at good prices and in very usable shape but finding a used and not destroyed B-C mold for the machine forget about it like it never happened because it will never happen.

Buy a lubing sizer you will hit several walls with the coating and if you look you will find plenty of users here who are going back to lube from years of coating and perfecting there technique. I personally hear from a lot of my customers that they tried coated bullets from several different companies and are totally un-happy. some love them. some hate them. lube is going to win in the end.

[Dragonheart]

That seems small for what you are doing. I did the same thing as you melting down indoor range scrap. About a thousand pounds a week. I used a 20 gallon pot that was used to melt lino type from a print shop. Holds 3 5 gallon buckets of range scrap = 300lbs or so of clean lead. The jackets etc take up a lot of room the bigger the mouth the better. Have anyway to use natural gas? Where are you located i may need a new job :)
You may want to look at adding some antimonty to your mix also my range scrap was only around 10bhn.

I watched the Satin video and have to agree it's small in compairson to my propane tank and I think it's going to take a long time to process your lead. the small pot looks like it would be great if you are processing mainly lead with little else in the mix, but I have processed several thousand pounds of range lead dredgings and I get a lot of jackets, plastic, sand, etc in the mix. Volume wise you will be skimming off way more than you will get back in lead, so a large pot gives you the necessary room to work. From the time I turn on the heat I am pouring lead in about 45 minutes. I don't fill my pot completely keeping it to a little over two hundred pounds of ingots. My biggest problem is I only have five 4 pound ingot molds, which slows my process as I am waiting for them to cool enough to pour more.

[country gent]

One advantage to a big pot size is if production is wanted and enough ingot moulds are available 2 people can be pouring ingots at the same time. Another big plus is a 100-150 lb pot and a 400-500lb pot is there is more alloy in the big pot for more ingots all the same blend. Blending the largest batch possible can be a big plus when casting large runs of bullets or batches of ammo. Its easier to tune adjust set ups every 500 lbs than every 150 when the alloy might chamge slightly. Another trick is if your casting pot holds 10 ingots use 2 ingots from 5 batches and you know have a batch of alloy of much greater amount. To do this each pot needs to be issued a lot number as to pot ran from and stamped into ingot.

[Dragonheart]

One advantage to a big pot size is if production is wanted and enough ingot moulds are available 2 people can be pouring ingots at the same time. Another big plus is a 100-150 lb pot and a 400-500lb pot is there is more alloy in the big pot for more ingots all the same blend. Blending the largest batch possible can be a big plus when casting large runs of bullets or batches of ammo. Its easier to tune adjust set ups every 500 lbs than every 150 when the alloy might chamge slightly. Another trick is if your casting pot holds 10 ingots use 2 ingots from 5 batches and you know have a batch of alloy of much greater amount. To do this each pot needs to be issued a lot number as to pot ran from and stamped into ingot.

Good post, thanks.
I know when I started melting down large quantities of identical ingots it made a big difference in maintaining the uniformity of my bullet weight.

[Polishmike]

I watched the Satin video and have to agree it's small in compairson to my propane tank and I think it's going to take a long time to process your lead. the small pot looks like it would be great if you are processing mainly lead with little else in the mix, but I have processed several thousand pounds of range lead dredgings and I get a lot of jackets, plastic, sand, etc in the mix. Volume wise you will be skimming off way more than you will get back in lead, so a large pot gives you the necessary room to work. From the time I turn on the heat I am pouring lead in about 45 minutes. I don't fill my pot completely keeping it to a little over two hundred pounds of ingots. My biggest problem is I only have five 4 pound ingot molds, which slows my process as I am waiting for them to cool enough to pour more.


The pot in the video is a 45lb model. I got the 200.

[Tazza]

If you have access to an area that you can burn wood to melt the lead, it can be very cheap and you get some pretty good heat out of it too. I got a large house propane tank, cut about 1/3 off it. Got a 44 gallon drum and cut about 1/3 height too. Cut a hole in the 44 gallon drum to allow the propane tank to slip in and weld it in place. Cut a hole for a flue and one for adding wood.

I used this to melt indoor range scrap, it worked VERY fast, i feel i got a lot more heat out of the wood fire than i would have from any easily available propane burners. Also, the fuel was free.

I didn't have full days to melt it, but i did a good 500kgs worth in a day, that was working on my own with limited ingot molds. You can never have enough molds when doing a melt like that.

That is a serious range getting that much lead in only 6 months

[imashooter2]

Hard to believe it would be more cost effective to hire a man to smelt than buying virgin alloy by the pallet.

[Dragonheart]

Hard to believe it would be more cost effective to hire a man to smelt than buying virgin alloy by the pallet.

It probably won't be more cost effective if the Democrats raise the minimum wage to $15+ an hour.

[charlie3tuna]

The Antimony Man recommended, as have many here, the use of DRY Coke/beer cans for molds. You get about a 5# ingot. While not 'storage space' efficient, the price can't be beat and works great especially for lead that will be alloyed into a large batch. Just a thought....charlie