powder in semi auto handgun

[toallmy]

Gentlemen can we discuss working on loading ackert cast handgun loads . I am a new caster and loader of handgun ammo , but long time loader of rifle and shotguns. For the last year or so I have been working out the casting of decent bullets, with a lot of help from this sight. A long the way I have worked out the loading as far as function , and leading . But hear is my next step ( I want to hit the target ) I understand I am not that good of a shot , but that can be worked out . OK that's the story and hear is the question . To my understanding you work up a load for a handgun sort of like a riffle pick your brass , powder , and bullet find the OAL that worked in your gun then work up a ladder with the powder charge until you get the load to operate the action and funching properly. I have gotten to that point so now I want to shrink my groups. Thear is not much more I can do with OAL or sorting the brass , all is left is the powder and since the window is so small in the charge amount for reliable funching ammo . All is left for me to do is try different powders. I have a few different powders I can play with . I am working on 45 acp ,and 9mm still working out the sizing issue with my 9 when I load it my little 0.3575-.358 turn into 0.356 but with a fellow members help and a new case mouth expander that should be resolved. I have on hand red dot, grean dot, herco ,and unique .I use a little dandy powder measure , and load in loading blocks with a single stage press. I have been using red dot in both the 9 and 45 I suppose I'll try working with the other powders . I am open to suggestions , and would appreciate all advice . WOW I feel like I just finished a book.

[Piedmont]

I think the Little Dandy measure may hold you back. With an adjustable measure you can hit any powder charge you want to try. Also, you need to get your stability and shooting mechanics worked out first or load testing is pointless. A .22 autopistol would be a good way to get that end figured out without wasting components. Otherwise, you are on the right track- it is just like working up a load for a rifle.

[toallmy]

I appreciate the response , I will try throwing powder charge light and trickling to weight as I work on the powder charge in lots . I have noticed ( with rifle powder ) that some powders are more forgiving than others .

[bangerjim]

If you are trickling simple hand gun ammo, you will be at it a looooooong time! Just stuff 'em and shoot 'em!

I trickle 06 loads but not much more. If I spent that much time on each and every 9 and 40 and 45ACP, I would be at it forever. Those semi's are not that accurate anyway, so why waste your time?

Get a good powder measure, set with a good digital scale ONCE at the start and start stuffing them!

If you have the time to trickle handgun ammo, more power to you! My time is much more valuable.

Since you are new to handgun's, do not expect the accuracy you are used to with rifles. Hand guns, especailly semi's = "spray & pray" in my book! I do get VERY (!) good accuracy with my 357Mag and 44Mag and 45LC long barrel revolvers. NOT with whimpy short barrel semi's.

Good luck in your new endeavor.

bangerjim

[GhostHawk]

My experience, high power/speed and accuracy do not go together. They are like oil and water.

I do 95% of my loading/shooting with Red Dot. For any given caliber there is almost always a powder that will give more speed, better accuracy. But Red Dot lets me shoot a wide range of calibers with a single powder, is very economical, and works well as long as you can keep the loads dialed down a bit.

If you are a Tim the Tool man Tyler type that needs "More POWER" more speed, look elsewhere.

My SA 1911 walks and trots sweetly with 4 to 4.5 grains of Red Dot below a 230 grain bullet.
In 9mm 3 grains works under a variety of boolits.

There are .357 mag loads with much more speed/power to them, but 4.6 grains of Red Dot below the Lee .358 158 puts 3 in one hole through my handi Rifle.

But you have to be able to back the loads off till you get accuracy.

It is always a balancing act, trick is to find the powder that puts the balance where it works for you.

[Vann]

I beg to differ on the spray and pray being typical for a semi auto pistol. I'm using a max charge of Red Dot in my 2nd Gen Glock 17 with a match barrel and 11/2 groups at 25 yards and better than that on good days.

Just look on YouTube and be amazed by people shooting 200+ yards with stock semiauto's.

My best advice to the OP is be realistic in what your abilities are, if you're not that good of shot with a pistol there is no harm in asking someone who is to shoot it for you, but shoot from a bench and work up from starting load to max. After you have tried you first powder move to the next, sooner or later you'll find what groups best.

Try some factory loads and compare their grouping to your loads so you will have a baseline for your group size. You may have a gun that will only shoot a 5 inch group or it may surprise you and do 2 inches, but any auto should be able to print 3 inches at 25 yards.

[toallmy]

Come on Bangerjim I am shore you have put in the time working out your hand gun loads , I am not to concerned about the spead but I want pop can 25 yard ( foreshore ) ammo out of my auto handguns and sometimes I want to hit the bottom of the can . Ghosthawk red dot has been one of my favorite powders for 30 or so years but considering a slower powder . Hand weighing 50-100 rounds to try other powders or different loads is just tinkering with a load.

[toallmy]

I will work off of a bench , just trying to get a little better groups. Thanks for a hand gentlemen.

[Yodogsandman]

Changing powders won't effect accuracy all that much until you're a better shooter, IMHO. As has been written here, learn to bench rest your pistol to test your rounds. I rest my wrists on something for testing. Then after you find "the load", practice, practice, practice. I've just been through this myself with my 45ACP. I seem to improve every practice session and am increasing my range with accuracy (relative). I've found that my 45ACP has likes and dislikes for bullet design. It hates RN's and likes HG 68 clones. It really likes the 200 gr Lyman 452460's and the Lee 452-230 TC. The difference in accuracy is quite a lot between it's likes and dislikes. So, be sure to try a few different boolits.

[chutesnreloads]

I like to trickle the charge while working up a load for pistol.Also have two or more loads for each and here is why.My best accuracy loads in .40 and 9mm are with BlueDot and it just plain doesn't drop from my powder measure very consistently.None of the big flaky powders do.So for my "accuracy" loads I will weigh the charges for a box or two just to carry and only shoot a few now and again.For every day shooting when I will load with a finer grained powder like bullseye,titegroup,hp-38/231.These powders all throw very accurate charges so get good ammo but not quite as accurate as my "accuracy" loads.

[bangerjim]

It sounded like you were planning to trickle EVERY semi load. Load development takes some and mabe a lot of measuring, tinkering, and messing around. I have done a lot of it, as all of us have. Once you get what you need, write it down and let the powder measure do the rest in the future.

And yes, I can get decent groups at 20-25 yards with semi's, especially with my match-grade barreled ones. Bench-resting is cheating! :grin: But I mainly shoot my long barrel revolvers for farther/better accuracy and lots-o-fun.....a lot more fun than chasing empty cases around the range from my semi's! I consider semi's a necessary evil of my hobby. I have them, but I really do NOT enjoy shooting them at all.

I used Titegroup in all semi's until I discovered ETR7. That is now my standard powder for all handguns, both semi and revolvers....non-magnum loads. And for all rifle plinking loads.

banger

[chutesnreloads]

Going to have to try some that ETR7 you keep praising

[toallmy]

I am currently running 185 gr swc in my 45s it seemed to do a little better then the 200 gr swc for me with 4.4 gr red dot . In the 9s .356 -120tc standard lube grove and 3.8 gr red dot. I understand not all guns are created equal so different guns for different things . My Springfield will out shoot my colt but the colt feels right in my hand.

[Motor]

Banger Jim's comments may sound extreme but they are not far off. A good powder measure will throw most pistol powders better than most of us can shoot.

Trying different powders, or even primers and maybe even different alloys and boollit size will likely get you better accuracy than trickling pistol powder. I would start with different powder(s).

Motor

[Sam Casey]

Another approach is to work on your powder dropping technique with the LD. If you can get charges W/I couple 10ths of a grain with consistency, your accuracy should be in same range as you get with trickler and you can spend saved time at range.

[toallmy]

Understood and agreed with all ,working up the load off a bench is probably a must for a handgun shooter like me. I have used the little powder charger over a few thousand rounds and am amazed at the spead, and reliable charge it can throw. Well that will make it a lot faster to try out the different powders . Ok well this will keep me busy for a while. Worst case scenario ill be working on my shooting . It's settled then start over with my powder weights and type . At least my coasting is getting better, by the way that hot plate made a world of difference. As always I thank you all so much more than you will ever know you have helped from the beginning yes a spoon and frying pan with a old 38/40 wcf single cavity I borrowed. Goodnight

[country gent]

There are loads that are almost standards in certain calibers rifle and pistols both.These seem to be acceptable accuracy in most handguns and rifles. The 2.6 grns bullseye under a 148 grn HBWC is one that comes to mind for bullseye shooters. Look thru several loading manuals data for caliber being loaded. Look at the powders listed when you see the ones listed in all the data ( there will be some that show in one manual or 2), Then go back thru and look at powder charges ranges and see what average for those given powders. I sometimes average the charge wieghts to see what the mid point is. You now have powder type and a charge wieght to work up to. Load some test loads and fire over the bench with an accurate rest that is comfortable and repeatable. Access to a ransom rest or other solid rest might help. Start at a lighter load and work up test the same load over several diffrent days to insure that 1) it wasnt a bad day for you 2) Load isnt sensitive to heat weather conditions 3) good group wasnt a fluke. The old stand by powders can still be very accurate and useable. Bullseye, uniuque, 231, 2400, and some others are still good powders to try. In 9MM and 45 acp 231 might be a good choice it meters good is consistant and perfoms in the range most of these pistols want to use.

[rsrocket1]

Unique will be your friend in this situation. It has a very wide margin of safety and as long as you load it medium warm, it will burn clean. The important thing for safety is that a double charge will overflow or nearly overflow your cases (both 9 and 45) and in 9, you will have lots of safety margin in pressure. Red Dot will be loaded to near max in 9 just to get good slide function. Under a 230g bullet, 5g Unique will get you low to mid 700 fps and under a 124g 9mm bullet it will get you mid 1100 fps. Same settings for both bullets! Interestingly, you can use the same 5.0g Unique for good results in 40 and 38 Special although with a 158g bullet, it will be at the top of the pressure range.

The important thing about your Little Dandy powder measure is not that it can't be adjusted for 0.1g drops, the important thing is that you develop a technique to make it drop the same amount of powder (to within 0.1 or 0.2g) every time. Do something like this:
start with the #10 rotor (close to what they claim is 5.2g Unique). Tap the rotor twice, drop the powder and measure. Do this a number of time. Are you between 4.9 and 5.2g every time? If so, you are good to go.

I started out shooting terribly, but after years of testing, learning how to load, cast, lube and powder coat, all that testing eventually made me a much better shot. Once I got my loads to shoot consistently, I knew that any inaccuracies are do to me and not the load or inconsistent loads.

[toallmy]

:lovebooliGentlemen using my little dandy powder measure only gives me about 3 -4 different powder charges per different powders ,due to the average about .3/10th gr difference with fixed charge. So across the min- max I can load 50 of each for a total of 150-200 rounds . Then try that with 4 different powders easy enough . Then when and if I notice some small difference in the grouping I can play around with that powder and charge weight . I am going to start with the 185gr swc , and then the 200gr swc in the 45 one gun at a time. I have been researching min -max charge with the powders on hand red dot, green dot, unique , and herco as you see the powders are shot gun powders .I understand bullet seating depth effects on pressure and will work up with open eyes , and safety , as I am not looking for the most powerful load , but I good dependable ackret round for each gun . It would be nice if one load could work in both guns. It has been a journey to get to this point and appreciate all the help along the way .

[Blackwater]

Lots of good advice above. As to trickling, I'll NEVER try to do that. We just shoot FAR too many rounds in handguns for that to be a real option. I might for some few hunting loads, but NEVER for most loads, including self defense. OAL in autos is determined by what feeds in your gun with that particular bullet, so you're right about powder charge being the essential variable in getting good accuracy, once you've established (and preferably proven on paper) what sizing dia. your gun shoots best.

One thing that helps when using a powder measure, particularly when using any larger grained powder, is very simple. Most measures come with a .22 and .30 cal. drop tubes. When loading anything of at least .30 cal. make SURE you have the .30 cal. nozzle on your measure. That will prevent most bridging with all but the longest grained powders, and even that will be minimized. Powders used in autopistols are generally fairly small grained, for the most part, but there are some that have large flakes, and those really need that .30 cal. nozzle on the dumper.

Another helpful tip that I've tried and tested, is to - when you fill your powder hopper in the measure - take your left hand and grasp the left side, and then with your right hand, slap it lightly quite a few times. This will help settle the powder more uniformly, and the increased uniformity of the powder makes for more uniform dumps. Just makes sense, and I tried it way back when I had more time to actually weigh dumped charges on my beam balance sacale. Uniform powder charges usually keep velocity spreads pretty low, and that'll only help you get better, faster.

One other note. Probably the best practice with a handgun is to balance a dime on the front sight, and practice 'till you can drop the hammer without the dime falling off. To begin with, you'll be SURE you'll NEVER get to that point, where it doesn't fall off, but keep at it, and you actrually WILL, and when you do, you'll be amazed at how accurate your loads really CAN be! Just a FWIW. That trigger squeeze is the most crucial part of shooting a pistol.

[toallmy]

I will give it a try , but I might have to start with it on top of the slide . I just tried it I surprised myself I can do it. There is hope for me after all. I just finished loading up 3 different lots of 185 gr swc over three different powder charges to compare first powder group red dot first. Thanks for the Ray of hope.

[toallmy]

I just finished loading some 185gr swc for the 45 in 3 lots with 3 different charge weighs of red dot to try first powder out . I tried the dime and I can do it . In my youth I read a lot of western paperbacks and throughout my life some stuck in my head ( like you practice aiming before you practice shooting ) . Thanks for the Ray of hope .

[toallmy]

I haven't got very good at this computer thing yet eather.

[toallmy]

Out today trying my assorted charges of red dot on paper and discovered throughout the charge weighs , group size was virtually the same as was functioning. Problem was it was the size of a pizza box at 35 yards out of 2 different 45s off of a step ladder . So I was feeling miserable had a few rounds that I wanted to get read of previously loaded with store bought 230 rn lead . Bang pie pan size group , so my test with different powder , and charges is at a stand still . I am afraid my guns don't shoot the 185 swc very well to start with. I tried a few rounds I had got from another company as well and thay out shot the 230 rn . well I guess the 200gr swc is up next shame a nice saeco #130 2cav that I have been working with for a year does not like my guns.

[Ricochet]

I'm assuming that when you're shooting off of a step ladder you're using it as a rest to support your arms. :razz: Don't rest the gun against the support. It's mighty easy to develop a mild flinch and not notice it. With a semiauto you might have to get someone to help you putting a round in the chamber and sometimes not without you seeing it. If the muzzle jerks when you dry fire it expecting a shot, you have a flinch to work on. I'm not saying I'm a great shot, these are things I've had problems with.

[toallmy]

Yes sir I am having a battle with a reoccurring flinch it keeps sneaking up on me . I have to watch myself on every shot for a smooth follow thru.

[EDK]

I had shot 9mm pretty exclusively since last June...really fell in love with GLOCK 17 and 34. First of the year I traded for a GLOCK 41 and had all kinds of accuracy problems, so I ordered a KKM barrel and played with loads for the 45..5.8 grains of HP38 leftover reloads from 20 years ago and took it down to 5.0 with the 1/2 pound I have left...will try RED DOT/PROMO. Shooting the 45 forced me to concentrate on basics. I'm doing considerably better with the 9mm guns and the 45 is improving every day.

FWIW I'd find a boolit the guns like and then shoot some higher end loads until I conquered the flinch. IIRC, the Army Marksmanship Unit guys had to achieve a certain level before they were moved from hardball equivalent to target ammo.

[David2011]

A Lil' Dandy was my first powder measure. It may not be the best measure for the ultimate accuracy load in your firearms it will suffice. AS an alternate suggestion, maybe you could determine which of the powders throws the most consistent charge for the .45. I suggest the .45 because it's much more forgiving due to the large case loading. The 9mm is a high pressure round with little to no extra room in the case, causing even small variations in seating depth significant to the maximum pressure. Save it until you have a good grasp of making the .45 work the way you want.

Technique with the Lil' Dandy is as important as with any powder measure. A handle can be fabricated to screw to the end of the rotors using their existing holes. Shouldn't be hard using some aluminum strap and screws from a hobby shop or hardware store. The small parts boxes at Ace and True Value are a treasure trove for such fabrications.

David

[toallmy]

I have ordered a 500 count box of 200 gr tc bullets from mid Atlantic bullets that seam to out shoot ( in my guns ) my 185 and 200 gr swc . I have been casting 45s with a couple different molds but could possibly be that they are not working for me .