Deep seated boolits

[220]

Had a few requests for clarification of what I mean by deep seating boolits after discussing it in another thread.
Light for calibre deep seated boolits are popular in Aus with Service/WA1500/PPC events where there isn't a power factor to be meet.
The very best shooters are obviously using custom guns chambered for 38spl but good results and all the benefits in my experience can still be had in 357 chambered guns.

I guess the theory behind it is similar to conventional flush seated WC, reduced case capacity giving better more consistent burn, less powder position sensitivity etc. Being significantly lighter than a conventional 148gr WC they have a few more benefits, even less recoil than a conventional 148gr WC target load, less powder and lead used.

I am far from a top level shooter I was class myself as average at best.
With a rest the best I can do for 10 shot groups at 25m is around 1.5", conventional 38 wc loads, deep seated and conventionally loaded, if the gun likes them 1.5" is about as good as I get.
So off a bench the deep seated loads shoot as good as my best conventional loads.
The real difference is in use, while they may not shoot any better than conventional loads the reduced recoil will see you shooting better and when it comes to shooting the quicker stages of matches there is a noticeable difference in the results.
In 4 & 6 second stages the lack of recoil means the gun just stays on target and it is simply a matter of stroking the trigger.

I no longer use a 38 for ISSF (bullseye) competition, have moved on to a 32s&wl wadcutter only auto but wouldn't hesitate to use the deep seated loads in 38 if I was still shooting it in competition. Teenage son used them last year at our state championships and managed to pick up a medal in grade even though it was only the 3rd time he had shot the match.

When it comes to loading I use a set of conventional Lee dies, these allow me to seat about 1/8" below the case mouth.
I use virtually no crimp, just enough to iron out the flare I have put on the case. I use standard 38spl cases, I have heard some people claim +P cases are slightly thicker in the lower part of the case and may swage down the boolit if deep seated.
Would the same work in 357 cases? I don't know as I haven't tried it but cant see any reason it wouldn't the same principles apply.

A couple of pics, first one should give an idea of what I mean by deep seating, 2nd one is fairly representative of what they will do from my stock 686 at 25m not the best target Ive shot but representative of the accuracy I get if I pull 10 rounds randomly from 1000 loaded on LNL-AP. Target is s ISSF 10m air pistol target for reference the white patch is 3/4"

http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2016-02/e612d28a.jpg
http://madmick3006.com/ahngallery/upload/files/2016-02/46d1acde.jpg

[stu1ritter]

I haven't read the other thread so I'm wondering, have you listed any load data for these deep seated SWC and what weight are they?
Thanks,
Stu

[StrawHat]

220, thanks for starting this. I was one who was interested and still am. What powder and weight do you use? What weight boolit?

THanks

Kevin

[9.3X62AL]

THAT is a pretty darn good group fired double-action at 25 meters.

[Petrol & Powder]

Looks like you're making a 38 Special "Nagant" cartridge :o . Jokes aside, I suspect the reduced case capacity is the true key to the potential accuracy. As you stated, the reduced case capacity results in consistent burn and less powder position sensitivity. Very similar to a deep seated full wadcutter but achieved with a lighter bullet.
Don't know if it would ever replace the 148 gr HBWC but it appears to be a valid concept.

Thanks for sharing.

[220]

Ive been using lee 105 SWC and AP-50 powder. AP-50 is one of the few ADI powders hodgdon don't repackage and sell in the USA.
ADI list the bun rate as similar to HP 38 W321 & N320.
They are dropping AP-50 from their line this year so their latest manuals have had little data for it.
Early ADI manual listed from 2.7gr-3.2gr with a 148gr HBWC for 650fps (10,100psi) - 755fps (13,300psi) and the previous version shows 3.2gr AP-50 or AS-50 for 750fps.
Originally ADI claimed the same burn rate for their AP/AS powders and that they could be interchanged with the difference being the grain size with AP designed for pistols and AS shotguns. They no longer do and list AS as sightly slower on their burn rate chart.
Hodgdon sell AS-50 as Universal.
I have loaded from 2.0gr-3.0gr AP-50 for a touch over 650fps to a bit under 1000fps.
No idea what pressures Im running but they appear perfectly safe in my guns for the thousands of rounds Ive fired.
2.2gr for a bit over 700fps is what I have settled on although accuracy wise there was virtually no difference in all the loads I tested.

I think any manual listed starting load for a 148gr flush seated wadcutter, would be a safe place to start. Usable case capacity will be similar with the deep seated light SWC so in effect all you are doing is reducing projectile weight by about 25% with in theory should result in lower pressures.

[TheGuyFromSouthamerica]

Dear ya all,

Meanwhile I was not posting at Cast Boolits I was posting at The Firing Line under the pseudonym of TheGuyOfSouthamerica. Now on Cast Boolits here I am posting under the Name TheGuyFromSouthamerica. I post this on cast boolits since on TFL I can not post high Resolution photos (I forgot to lower the Resolution of the phone).

I have [re]invented an new "wildcat" cartridge.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177907&d=1475344699&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177907&d=1475344699)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177908&d=1475344731&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177908&d=1475344731)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177910&d=1475344776&thumb=1 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=177910&d=1475344776)
I left aside the "reinvented 9mm Federal Rimmed" and instead did what an Cast Boolits member was suggesting me: Seating deep the Lee .356" lead cast Truncated Cone Tumble lube 124 grain bullets into the 38 spl case. The Picture on the left is the result. In that Picture right you see the "new wildcat", in the middle you see the same bullet in an 9mm Luger and on the left you see the cast bullet itself.
The Picture in the middle are the entrance holes from the "new wildcat" from an distance of 55 meters. You see it has an accuracy of about "Movement of Deer". It is good for hunting and defense I guess.Must have an accuracy of about 6" (from a Standing Position Point aim shoot. No particular aiming at the same spot). 2 shots of These "wildcats" were fired.
The Picture on the right are the Exit wholes from the 2 shot fired "new wildcat" from a distance of 55 meters. You see it penetrated the 200 Liter bin right through and entered on an Wood at the back and must have bounced off since I can not find the bullets.
Comparison: #4 buckshot will NOT penetrate the bin (often not even from the front side) from 20 meters. 00 buck will penetrate the bin both sides from 20 meters but not all of the 9 pellets.
You see therefore These "wildcats" have a good Penetration. They are loaded with 3.0 grain 700X type scavenged shotgun powder behind the .356" 124 grain Lee bullet. They are seated 0.100" deep from flush (like an wadcutter but deeper) and empty airspace in the case should equal about that of an 9mm Luger. The 9mm Luger I load the same bullet and powder Charge.
Seated at 0.125" from flush These wildcats start to Show bulges near the rim and I guess that may be a sign of incipient case head Separation (but no hard extraction nor any other signs of over pressure could be seen). These wildcats are shot in an Heritage/Pietta Rough Rider 357 Magnum SAA 5.5" Revolver.
Lubed are These "wildcat" and 9mm Luger not anymore with Texaco Marfak Lithium grease but I changed to Raidl Raidex Crayon animal marker sticks from Hauptner&Herberholz made in Germany for bullet lube.With this bullet lube I do NOT get leading at all and it stays solid til 176 degrees Farenheit (80 degrees Celsius). These Crayons do not seep oils nor liquify if exposed to direct sunlight on a cooking hot truck Hood.

What do you guys think? Any opinions?
Check as well my post at The Firing Line if you are interested.

[bedbugbilly]

Just curious since I don't shoot competition and don't know the circumstances of "supply" in your area.

Instead of deep seating in a 38 special casing, why not just use 38 Colt Short brass? Or is 38 Colt Shot/Long brass not available? I use the lighter weight 105 and the 10ish gr. TC Lee molds which drop, for me, around .358 - so I use them "as cast". I load and shoot a lot of 38 Colt Short using those boolits over either 1.8 grains of Bulls Eye or 2.0 grains of Red Dot. I shoot them out of 38s and several 357s - a nice snappy load that seems to shoot well for the plinking/paper shooting I do - but again - I'm not shooting competition nor with my older eyes am I shooting groups like you show. Nor, with the powders I use, have i ever had an issue with powder position, ignition, etc. in any 38 casing size whether it be a 38 Colt Short, Long, Special, 358 or the tad longer 38 Dan Wesson casing that I use in my 357 Handi Rifle.

Again, I'm not trying to "challenge" as what you are doing obviously works - just curious as to what the real difference would be between a deep seated boolit in a 38 Special Case as opposed to just using a 38 Colt Short Case? Or is it a case of limited component supply? Or possibly I'm not seeing something? :-) LOL

[TheGuyFromSouthamerica]

bedbugbilli,

I till now cut down 38 spl/357 mag cases to 19mm to recreate the 9mm Federal Rimmed. The 9mm Federal Rimmed is a sort of +p+p 38 Short Colt round (should have 35000 psi in pressure).
Obviously locally 38 Short Colot is never availlable. The only very common rounds here are 9mm Luger, 38 spl. No bullets, nor other reloading Equipment availlable (on a regular Basis). Brass is plenty in once fired 9mm Luger and 38 spl at the local Shooting Club (I can pick it up there for free).

I was an "enemy" of heavy loads (like 124 grains) as well but now I actually like the heavier load more than the lighter ones. Heavier loads Permit me to save powder (an 115 grain FMJ uses 4.0 grains of powder in 9mm Luger but an lead 124 grain Lee bullet load uses 3.0 grains of same powder) and lead is more plenty availlable than gun powder (latter has to be scavenged from shotshells. It is NOT commercially availlable).

Believe me. That my Shooting is not me it is the gun. I just pointed aimed and shot from an Standing Position not taking much care for aim. The recoil is nice snappy. Pressure, Penetration and I bet velocity can be all regulated very well with seating depth. My Goal is seat the bullet right on top to the powder without compressing the powder. That gives an optimal Performance.

I use the lead cast bullets as well "as cast". They drop about from .356" to .362". I allways use them "as cast".

Yes. Over here gun powder CAN NOT BE HAD. There is no gun powder to buy nor cases. In my experience IT IS ALL ABOUT EMPTY AIRSPACE VOLUMEN IN THE CASE. +empty case Volumen= less power. no empty airspace in case (bullet sits right on top of the powder)= Maximum optimization of the powder-bullet-case-seating depth-crimp Combo= more pressure, Penetration, velocity, power.
Load same powder Charge in 9mm Luger and 38 spl with same bullet and you see allways the 9mm Luger has more power than the 38 spl. It's all about empty air in case.

I strongly believe These deep seated rounds are the same as an 9mm Luger if loaded with the same powder and bullet. The differnece is just seating depth-empty airspace in case. Nothing else.

[220]

No doubt colt short would work but 38spl cases are everywhere and cheap, I picked up 5k once fired for $150 a few years back, new colt short would probably cost me near that for 100 if I could find them.
Velocity is a bit more consistent so Im seeing slightly better accuracy than conventional seating in 38spl. No way to verify but Im assuming its due to the reduced capacity of deep seating resulting in a more uniform burn and I use a bit less powder for the same velocity.

[Traffer]

Makes me want to get a 38 that will handle +p ammo. They can be bought pretty cheap and I like wheel guns.

[TheGuyFromSouthamerica]

Dear Traffer,

NO 38 spl guns for this load.

ONLY 357 mag guns for this load. Most likely These rounds get around 35000 psi of pressure.

To be on the safe side. if you seat 'em, load 'em and crimp 'em like an 9mm Luger then it IS an 9mm Luger with the same pressure. Do NOT let you fool what is written on the 38 spl headstamp: If you load the 38 spl as an 357 mag it is NOT ANYMORE AN 38 SPL.

[bedbugbilly]

Thanks for your reply - appreciate it. When you have lemons, you make lemon-saide and when you have apples, you make apple juice. Not having access to components can certainly be a drawback . . . we complained when the "shortage" hit here but in reality, I'm sure it is always much more frustrating where you are.

Thanks for your reply - I admire those who work with what they have and "make it work". Much luck to you for continued success! Be safe and enjoy!