Might be of interest to .38 Super fans.

[Ithaca Gunner]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...-the-38-super/ (http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/super-powders-for-the-38-super/)

I've been considering something other than .45ACP for my next 1911, the old Super .38's looking mighty good.

[dtknowles]

I clip this following from the article "The .38 Super can produce real .357 Magnum performance from a 5” barrel, just like the 9X23 Winchester, with the right gunpowder. The benchmark load for the .357 Magnum propels a 125 grain bullet at 1450 fps from a 4” barrel. Accurate No. 7, N105 and Power Pistol can all do that with a 5” barrel." Why not just get and 9x23 Winchester instead of the .38 Super?

Tim

[Ithaca Gunner]

For me, the answer is simple. .38 Super is much more readily available, barrels, slides, and other parts, and I still have left over cases and some loaded ammo from my last one. Someone else may well choose a 9x23, or a .357 Sig. I just like the .38 Super, and that's reason enough for me.

[dtknowles]

For me, the answer is simple. .38 Super is much more readily available, barrels, slides, and other parts, and I still have left over cases and some loaded ammo from my last one. Someone else may well choose a 9x23, or a .357 Sig. I just like the .38 Super, and that's reason enough for me.

Isn't the only part that is different the barrel or maybe the recoil spring but people use different springs in .38 Super. I don't like .357 Sig because of the short neck. If you keep pressures to .38 Super levels you can use 9x23 Largo brass or if you want to hot rod you can use 9x23 Win brass. The rim on .38 Super is silly and most people ignore it, .38 Super is just another 9x23 with a rim. Hey whatever floats your boat.

Tim

[Ithaca Gunner]

Tim, I did leave out the part of building a Super .38 on an 80% stainless frame. I have a few in various stages of completion, a Commander stainless with a .45 slide already fitted, but left the ejector unpinned for now just in case I change my mind about caliber. A few stainless frames I haven't started yet... Fusion Arms has new stainless slides and barrels available for the Super and other calibers, 9mm Luger, .357 Sig, .38 Super, .40, 10mm, and .45 of course. I don't recall seeing any 9x23 though. Yeah, a .38 Super and maybe a 10mm could float my boat later this year.

[ReloaderFred]

The .38 Super is a straight walled case, while the 9x23 Winchester is a tapered wall case. I shoot both. You "can" shoot 9x23 in a .38 Super chamber, but it's not ideal. I know of one former executive for Winchester who shot 9x23 in IPSC matches through a .38 Super barrel, but he carried a chamber brush with him to brush out the chamber after each string to remove the debris and ensure smooth feeding.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Coogs]

Wish I had a 1911 in .38 Super.

[tim338]

I have always wanted a 38 super commander. Someday.......

[ReloaderFred]

The .38 Super is a great cartridge. I've got one on a 1911 frame, and several on the Witness frame. You can load it from mild to wild and you get the advantage of the same capacity as a 9x19, but more powerful. All of my .38 Supers are exceedingly accurate, plus the advantage of accuracy beyond regular 9mm ranges.

There's really nothing not to like about the .38 Super.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Ithaca Gunner]

My experience with the .38 Super goes back to the 1980's. I bought a Colt "Super .38" 1911 made the first year of production, 1929 complete with a period .22 conversion unit from a local gunsmith. The bore was less than pristine and accuracy disappointing with the Super. I ordered a new Colt barrel through the same smith and though accuracy was improved, it wasn't near what I had come to expect from a properly fitted 1911 in .45ACP. (at this time Colt was still head spacing on the cartridge rim while other barrel makers wisely head spaced their Super barrels on the cartridge mouth). Being ignorant of the head space issue I tired of the so-so accuracy of the Super and swapped it for a new Beretta 92 which was soon swapped for a satin nickel Colt Combat Commander .45 that would cut clover leaf groups from a rest at 25yds with about anything I fed it. Now, that old 1929 Super would shoot fine for a fighti'n gun, but I just had to have 10X accuracy at the time.

Now I have four .45's in 1911 and just want something a little different, but still common enough to be able to pick up ammo for locally in a pinch. The Super .38 with a 9mm barrel is looking very tempting for my next build. Maybe a 10mm later, but I'm thinking hard on a Super in the next few months, I have several stainless frames waiting and Fusion Arms has some very nice stainless slides and barrels available.

[MtGun44]

I shot about 70,000 rounds in competition with a Wilson LE Comp in "Super 38", which is what
Bill Wilson called it. Unsupported chamber required Rem +P or PMC +P brass, Win of any type, including
+P and +P+ brass would either blow out or bulge so bad as to scare you with loads that would
run 40 reloads or more in the other brass. I used WW571/HS7 which is unfortunately no longer
available and could get 1400 fps with 125 Hornady JHP, and 1215 fps with 147 gr cast pointy
"SWC". BBL had a .357 groove diam.

The 1400 fps Hornady 124 JHP would be a good self defense load. The
other was an IPSC/USPSA Major Caliber load, back when they required
175,000 to make major. Manly loads.

Bill

[Ithaca Gunner]

Thanks for posting that, Bill. If my memory isn't too blurry, don't you carry a Commander in .38 super?

I've always gotten good service from PMC ammo and brass, however it seems to be drying up in the U.S. Any thoughts on Starline brass for the Super?

[MtGun44]

Carry a Ltwt Commander in .45 ACP, but would not feel too much disadvantaged
with a hot loaded .38 Super. Corbon DPX solid copper HPts are reported to reach
a touch over 1300 fps in 5" bbls.

While I have not used Starline .38 Super brass, the 9x23 stuff has a reputation of
withstanding really hot loads and would be my choice for max performance .38 Super
loads for self defense, or possibly their .38 SuperComp, if they still make it. I THINK
that the SuperComp was particularly made for really hot .38 Super loadings. Not
sure if it is still a std item, but they made it at one time.

I have used Starline in many other calibers and have always had really
excellent service from it. I put Starline in the top category for brass, but having
thousands of rounds of .38 Super brass made before Starline made (maybe was
even in business!) I have not felt a need to try their offering in that caliber. Are
you aware that Starline is a spinoff from Sierra Bullets, and is located right next
door to the Sierra factory in Sedalia?

Just don't push pressures with WW brass in this cartridge, but do not consider
that a blanket condemnation of WW brass, it is not, just that particular cartridge
seems to have little margin for hot loads. I must say that the load I used was
listed by Hodgdon as a 36,000 psi load, and my Rem & PMC brass lasted for dozens of reloads,
literally beating the headstamp flat from so many ejector hits, without loose primer
pockets or splitting, so it had to be within acceptable pressures in that gun.


Bill

[Ithaca Gunner]

Thanks Bill. I recently saw Midway list the Star Line Comp brass, but with no information as to it's use or strength. It is a bit more expensive though, but not unreasonably and still competitively priced. The most important thing is, it's available where Winchester and Remington Super brass is apparently a seasonal run.

I had no idea Star Line was in any way associated with Sierra, I've been buying their revolver and .45/70 brass for years. It's good stuff, I've never had any negative experience with it and have come to use it exclusively in .38/55, .44 Spl, .44 Mag .45 Colt and .45/70. I just visited their web site, they sell direct for less than Midway, and free shipping!

[MtGun44]

Probably not fair to connect Sierra and Starline too closely, but one of the founders of Sierra
founded Starline, and I believe is mostly run by his son now with the father and mother
still involved.

I believe that the Comp brass was made for folks souping up .38 Super loads to make major
caliber in IPSC competition. A lot of guys were running 115 Jbullets at high enough velocities
to make major caliber, which had been lowered to 170,000, IIRC. That would be about 1500
fps to give a 22 fps margin. They probably were planning on getting 1550 or so average to
really make major and make the compensators really work. I have shot with these guys a bunch
and the noise of those loads in their comps on an indoor range was really nasty. I have
no doubt that with a 124 gr 9mm bullet and that brass and probably with AA7, Blue Dot or Alliant
Steel powders, you could make 1400 fps within safe pressures - but that is definitely a max
load, and needs a slow powder and to be very, very carefully worked up to. It may not work
in all guns, too. The XTP that I was using has a relatively short bearing length, too, so that
may have helped. Also, it was a .356 jbullet in a .357 barrel, which will further reduce
friction, helping keep pressures within limits.

Alliant shows 1400 fps with a 115 "FMJ" with BE-86, not a powder that existed back then and
I have yet to try it for anything. Blue Dot seems to be a good one, Alliant shows middle
1300s velocity with that and BE-86 and various 124 gr jbullets.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Looks like the Comp brass is a rimless version of the +P if I understand things on the Star Line website. It says some guns may require an adjustment to the extractor, probably no stronger than the +P brass. Accurate #7 seems like a fine choice for the Super along with several others.

I'm finishing up a stainless bob-tail Commander frame now, it's been fitted to a pre-70 .45 slide, but the ejector isn't pinned yet so I can always change my mind and do it in Super. Then again, I have a stainless full size frame I haven't started yet...

[c1skout]

Yeah, the super-comp is rimless, just like the 38 TJ that used to be made. I've got a decent pile of the super-comp, but don't use it much. The regular super brass doesn't get ejected as haphazardly from my gun so it's easier to find.

[MtGun44]

Power pistol and BE-86 are also showing impressive velocities if one is looking for
a self defense load, stay with BE-86 as it is flash suppressed and PP is definitely
a leader in muzzle flash.

Bill

[ReloaderFred]

The Alliant rep at the SHOT Show was telling us that Power Pistol, BE-86 and Bullseye are what they refer to as their "Bullseye family" of powders. He explained that BE-86 was roughly half way between Power Pistol and Bullseye in burn rate, and he thought it was one of their better pistol powders.

I'm going to work up some warm loads with Winchester 571, since I've still got about 10 pounds of it. It's one of the most accurate powders I've found for the 10mm, so it should produce some good results in the .38 Super, too.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[MtGun44]

OK, if you have a lot of W571, here is a load you can try if you want hot loads.

The load that I got from Hodgdon many years back was only in one of those small
free load books that they put out. It was 7.1 HS7 (same as W571) under a 147 gr
cast lead boolit. It was listed as 36,000 psi and worked great for me but ONLY in
Rem +P and PMC brass. WW brass of any type was entirely unsafe with it. It
was definitely a max load, but I shot many tens of thousands of them in competition,
and got about 1230 fps over the chrono.

If you try that, work up to it very carefully.

Bill

[ReloaderFred]

Thank you for that information, Bill. Did you happen to do any work with 124/125 gr. bullets using 571? The reason I ask is I've got about 10,000 of the 124/125 gr. bullets for 9mm and 357 Sig, but I can also use them in the .38 Super.

Thanks,

Fred

[NavyVet1959]

I have a RIA .22TCM/9mm combo and I've been thinking of converting the 9mm barrel to .38 SUPER or 9x23. Currently, I'm thinking of just using .223 brass cut down to .38 SUPER length and then run through .38 SUPER dies.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I'm beginning to warm up to the idea of a ramped barrel since 1911Builders.com is now offering frames precut for them in several configurations.