30-40 Head Separation

[WineMan]

The sporterized 30-40 Krag I am shooting is pushing the Field limit on headspace. A prior recommendation was to fire form cases to fit the chamber with a light load and the boolit reversed to engage easier. I had a motley assortment of cases that came with the gun including some FA 04 and Remington 30 US Army that look like new.

I FL sized them, loaded with 4.5 grains Bullseye and 1.3 cc of PSB filler which is pretty much incompressible. I used backward lee 309-170's and made sure they held the case at the bolt face. These cases had been reloaded several times prior to this "resizing". After firing I used a bent paperclip to check for HS and in many of the cases the clip would "catch" on a groove near the head. There is the faint outside line and I cut a couple open and the area is thinner and a groove is there.

My question is did my procedure cause this or were they on their way to begin with? I did not check them prior to forming but none had shown any exterior signs of HS.

I assume these cases are toast and I have 50 new WW to replace them with, but I did not want to ruin these if my case forming technique was faulty.

Thanks,

Wineman

[oneokie]

I would use the procedure you state with the following exception. I would use starting load for what ever powder you have that is compatible with the 30-40 and cast boolits.

[JeffinNZ]

There is not much between the Krag and .303 Brit as the Brit is often critised for the same condition. The two factors to avoid are full length sizing and max loads.

I fire form my new .303 brass using 15gr of Green Dot topped off corn meal - no bullet. Effectively a blank load. I bell the mouth to centre it neck of the chamber and leave the cases a little lubed so they can slip in the chamber. At the time the blank load fires a new case is fireformed to headspace on the shoulder of the chamber and not the rim and from then on a use a Lee collet die only for sizing. I can get good case life even using loads in the 90% + range.

If you have doubts about your brass then bin it and start over.

[4570guy]

You mentioned that you were using some old brass that "looked like new". Old brass can be brittle -- especially if it was ever fired with the old style primers containing mercury. I suspect that the FA 04 brass that you mentioned certainly falls into this category. I've also run across embrittlement problems with old .270 Win brass that was in my grandfathers stuff. I would recommend purchasing new Remington or Winchester brass. Check Midsouth or Midway USA. I recently bought some '06 brass from Lock Stock & Barrel as I found they had slightly better prices (and brass in stock). I don't know if they stock Krag brass though.

I emailed Remington last year and was informed that they were no longer going to produce Krag brass. However, I still see it for sale on various supply house websites. Winchester is still making it last I checked.

Reading Hatcher's Notebook chapter on headspace seems to indicate that rimmed cartridges don't typically have the "dangerous" headspace problems that rimless cartridges will have. Part of the reason is that rimmed rounds like the Krag and the .303 Brit have their cartridges fully contained within the chamber when the bolt is closed. A head separation is not such a big deal in that case whereas in the '06, the aft-most portion of the cartridge is left unsupported by the chamber(e.g., such as the case in the '03 and the '17). A head separation in this case will cause high pressure gas to escape into the receiver. Bottom line -- try some new brass with light loads as recommened above. I'd toss that older stuff.

[WineMan]

I did get 50 cases of new WW brass and just wanted to make sure my FF would not consign them to the brass bin. Most of the old stuff that seemed to have HS issues was WW Super X brass. The guy I got the Krag from said the cases had been reloaded 5+ times with FL sizing each time.

[runfiverun]

chuck them those are frankford arsenal 1904, and the remingtons are nowhere near new.
try and stick with neck sizing only or you will only get @4 loads out of new brass.

[Bret4207]

That FA04 brass is 104 years old! Just how much life so you expect to get out of your brass?:mrgreen:

[junkbug]

I have to agree with the thoughts of Bret4207 and runfiverun.

FA 04 (1904) cases might be fun to play with as curiosities, and for novelty value. However, I would not consider experience with them as typical.

Many old Krags, both the Springfied Rifle, Winchester Rifle have had excessive headspace for decades. And you say you know these cases have been fired several time, possibly out of several different rifles. Those cased have done their duty.

Try your new cases. They should be more representative.

But those old cases are still cool.

Sean

[xtimberman]

Lots of good advice in previous posts.

I have two .30-40s that I handload - a Krag sporter, and a 1895 Win - and I no longer full-length size for either one - even for "factory"-type jacketed bullet loads.

Both rifles were chambered long before modern SAAMI standards and are quite different, so I have two batches of brass that are meticulously segregated. Brass lasts a very long time when I do this.

BTW, I've tried quite a few different powders in this cartridge, and SR-4759 has been the best mid-range cast bullet powder for both of my rifles. JMO

Here is a photo of some .30-40 near case head separations. Before I knew any better, I shot some rounds in the Winchester with cases that had been fireformed in the Krag. Headspace is normal in both rifles, but the Winchester chamber was longer and caused the brass to stretch thin and split after just a few full-length sizings and reloadings.

xtm

[JeffinNZ]

The other thing to try is create a secondary shoulder on the case to fit hard up against the chamber shoulder.

Expand the case neck out to .32/.33 cal then gradually size the neck back down until the case will JUST chamber and bolt close. You will see a secondary shoulder on the base of the neck and this will prevent the brass flowing forward and generate radial expansion only.

[4570guy]

With the cost of Krag brass -- definitely do not FL size. Neck size only.

[WineMan]

That is the plan going forward. I think I can use my 308 LEE collet die if I use a 0.300 spacer between the shell holder and the bottom of the die.

What I wanted was a "level" starting plane. I did cull out the FA04, Rem-UMC 30 USA, and WRA Co. 30 Army brass and what was left was a mix of WW Super 30-40 Krag , R-P 30-40 Krag, Super X 30-40 Krag about 60 cases or so. Like many here, my frugal side said lets see what we get. Plus I just bought 50 WW from Graf's new unfired in the bag brass to keep me going. It is mostly the Super X that is giving out. I will have to see when they stopped with this brand.

My plan is to keep the loads <1800 fps or so with the usual suspects of Unique, 2400 and possibly 22-26 grain loads of 3031 and cast in the 170 grain range.

Like most report who have one of these, the action is really smooth! The trigger if fairly tough not much creep and crisp let off but the old index finger needs to be in good shape.

Thanks again!

Wineman

[4570guy]

Neck sizing with a .308 die is one option. The bore on my Krag is so over-sized that I reload for it using .303 British dies. You still have to set back the die about the thickness of a nickel though as .303 Brit brass is slightly shorter than Krag brass.

[floodgate]

Wineman:

If you have not already tossed them, I'd like to have those old Krag cases. I do NOT plan to reload them, but need them for a display with a ca. 1904 Ideal "Armory" press in this caliber. I'd be happy to pay a few $$ to cover your trouble - and, of course, shipping. PM coming, with address.

Doug Elliott
aka"floodgate"

[WineMan]

My bore is pretty tight at 0.299 x 0.309 so I think sticking with a 30 cal collet die should work fine.

[runfiverun]

that super-x brass is probably real brittle, it hasn't been made for a while.
it was originally factory brass.
brass seems cheap unless ya gotta have it removed by agunsmith.

[Larry Gibson]

WineMan

"I had a motley assortment of cases that came with the gun including some FA 04 and Remington 30 US Army that look like new.

I FL sized them,"

That was your problem. If the cases chambered at all they should not have been FL sized. If they do not chamber then previously fired cases should be partial sized until they will just chamber. I definately like to feel the bolt close on them. Even with new cases do not FL to fire form, just NS. Your method of fire forming the cases is fine if the case is blown out to fit the cahmber. If not then just a bit more powder is used until the case blows out properly.

The older brass may have been part of the problem also (as mentioned by others). The signs of head seperation may have already been there.

FWIW; I get a lot of extra firings out of 7.62x54R cases that have the speckled ring around them showing iminant head seperation. I use these with 90 gr SWCs (either TL314-90-SWC or Hornady's swaged .32 SWCs) over 3 gr of Bullseye for right at 800+ fps. Great plinking and small game load. The cases I might have otherwise thrown away work just fine and since there isn't enough pressure with that load none have had a head seperate yet.

Larry Gibson

[Molly]

> I assume these cases are toast and I have 50 new WW to replace them with, but I did not want to ruin these if my case forming technique was faulty.

Your fireforming porcedure is fine for the most part. I would make a few suggestions:
1. Wrap some thin tape around the base of the case to center it in the chamber before you fireform. This will keep expansion uniform around the perimeter, and not over-stress any given portion of the head.
2. Don't size the cases before fireforming any more than necessary to get them to chamber. What you are doing is reducing the diameter & shoulder length so you can overwork the brass by expanding them again.
3. You describe using backwards bullets to control the headspace, but don't mention the fact that - though this can work fine - they have to be seated so far out that the bolt closes hard. Just seating the bullets like that does no good unless it forces the case back against the bolt pretty firmly.
4. Lightly lube the cases before firefoming. This will let the case slide back to take up any headspace - shoulder length problems rather than stretching the brass to do the job, and give you the head separation problems you encountered.

BTW, you can fireform 303 Brit brass in a 30-40 chamber, and they will generally work fine. At least, they do in a couple of Krags and a Ruger #3 I've used the trick in. The rim is thinner (youhaave to headspace on the shoulder), but it still fires and extracts OK.

HTH
Molly

[WineMan]

Molly,

With the exception of the tape I had the rest of the suggestions covered: lube, into the lands, hard bolt closure. Is Scotch tape appropriately thin for the base wrap.

Larry,

Lesson learned: leave sleeping brass alone. Back in my early days of winemaking (I was the winemaker at Covey Run in Zillah 88-99) I was told to never be in a hurry to do anything with wine. I think this applys to handloading too.

Thanks again for all the great ideas.

[scrapcan]

as Jeff in NZ brought out, I find that with these old rifles in bottleneck cartridges it is far better to create the false shoulder and make the brass fit your chamber. This is a great way to make the brass last along time, couple that with castboolits andneck sizing you can gets ome great life out of the 30-40 cases.

[Molly]

Molly, With the exception of the tape I had the rest of the suggestions covered: lube, into the lands, hard bolt closure. Is Scotch tape appropriately thin for the base wrap.

Larry,

The tape is to build up the perimeter of the case so that it is a tight fit in whatever chamber you have. (Some chambers are larger than others.) So the only way to know is just to try it and see. This dates back to the days when the only way to make cases for the Jap war return rifles was from 30-06 cases, which were 'way too small in head diameter. The case bulge from fireforming was very pronounced, and almost always on just one side of the case. A lot of times, the undersized case would split at the bulge when the case was fireformed. Since the rear of the chamber was pretty open due to the undersized 'o6 head, it offered very little resistance to the release of gas, and generated more merriment than most of us really appreciated.

On the other hand, wrapping the undersized '06 head with tape would force the case to the center of the chamber, and the expansion would occur uniformly around the case head. Split cases all but disappeared, and the resulting cases were quite servicable as long as they weren't '06 resized, even with some fairly potent reloads.

Actually, taping cases dates further back than that: Head splits were not uncommon even back in the days of the classic single shot rifles, and the tape worked just as well then too. Those fellows didin't have our technology and manufacturing tolerances, but they weren't stupid either.

Two other things I need to mention: If you are using some fairly mild loads to fireform, you shouldn't be getting head separations anyhow. The fact that you report them suggests that you might be using a more potent load than need be, and the higher pressures may cause the case to cling to the chamber, and stretch the head instead of fireforming the shoulder forward. Still, if the bolt is snug to close, that shouldn't be a problem, so I don't know.

Also, you might want to get your bolt locking lug checked out thoroughly: A LOT of krags were picked up by people used to loading for a 98 Mauser, and were sometimes badly overloaded. It's a great design in many ways, but a weak one too. Sometimes the locking lug was cracked, which would also account for the headspace separations as pressure built up and the cracked lug 'stretched'. Brownells used to (probably still does) sell a sort of lacquer that is so brittle, it'll crack and flake off around such cracks when the gun is fired. It's pretty good stuff, and a lot cheaper than getting it magnafluxed.

Hope this helps
Molly