BFR advice

[Dpmsman]

Hello, I'm looking for some BFR people to chime in here. I have decided to purchase one but can't decide what caliber to get. I have settled on the short frame for ease of carry. I have plenty of 44 mags in the stable so not sure if I need/want an other one. Also have a 6 1/2" 500 S&W which I'm going to sell to fund this purchase. I was originally thinking JRH but not sure if it would be to much fun to shoot more then a cylinder or two. Unfortunately I don't know or have access to any BFR's. Also what is the going price for a used one. So any advice would be appreciated.

[44man]

The accuracy of either the .475 or JRH can not be questioned but both have recoil that compares. Each can be shot off hand much easier then from bags where you get a wrist twist. The .475 seems to have more torque but a little less recoil then the JRH. Adds up to feel quite close.
Just a year ago it was nothing for me to burn over 50 rounds at a time with the JRH but as I get to be an older goat, things are changing.
I really like the .475 in any case. I love the 7-1/2" barrel over all others.
It is a hard choice but I will never part with any BFR as long as I can drag them!

[bosterr]

I think a 475 Linebaugh would fill your gap in nicely. I load a 395 grain RFN with a max charge of 296/H110. The stock Uncle Mike's grip didn't work for my extra large size hands so I fixed that with a Hogue Pau Ferro wood grip. Made it very comfortable. Mine wears a 2X6 Bushnell Elite scope. The 7 1/2 inch barrel is the perfect length. Great on deer! I got mine a year ago off Gun Broker for $925. shipped. It was listed as used, but not a mark on it anywhere. I'll NEVER sell my BFR!

[historicfirearms]

I vote JRH, mainly because I want one too. I had a 475 for a while but always wanted the 500. Bigger is better, right?

[Ramjet-SS]

Just sent my 30-30 in to have it converted to a 458 SOCOM. Yea I know but it a great cartridge very efficient and my AR needs a companion.

[27judge]

Look at the 500 jrh I have one and its a ball to shoot all day with the light loads listed by jack Huntington. a 440 gr bullet going about 1000 ft will shoot 3/4 to 1 in at 35 yards its pretty impressive and very easy on the hands.

[Dpmsman]

Thanks for all the good info. I found a used 475 on armslist the owner wants to trade for something different. I'll have to see what he's interested in. It would come with dies, Mihec mold and factory ammo. Not sure what it's all worth as a package. Any ideas?

[44man]

I got my .475 for $715 out the door, brand new. Prices have gone up of course. My dealer found it on sale at a distributor.
With dies and mold, it would be just a guess from me. The factory ammo adds nothing.

[Whiterabbit]

I paid $1500 for my 5.5" 500 JRH with brass and dies. But it was not a factory model per-se, it did have the huntington reshaped gripframe and a set of oversized grips. They help alot if your finger is going to be behind that trigger guard.

[44man]

I paid $1500 for my 5.5" 500 JRH with brass and dies. But it was not a factory model per-se, it did have the huntington reshaped gripframe and a set of oversized grips. They help alot if your finger is going to be behind that trigger guard.
WOW,WOW, almost double what I paid for a custom shop JRH.

[ole 5 hole group]

Jim, that was a great price - I think your dealer must have sold it to you at his cost. I purchased my 500 JRH a year or two before you, but purchased the revolver with micarta grips directly from the precision shop, and paid the going price and I can't remember exactly, but I think it came close to $1,400 shipped. Then I had to purchase the brass from Huntington and loading dies from Brownell. Just a distant memory now, but at the time, I was broke as hell and I was making up excuses to the war department on why we were broke.

I think there was a time that BFR sold the 500 JRH as a standard model in addition to the precision shop model. I think the difference in price was due to all the extras you could order at an "extra" price in addition to the trigger job that was just exceptional. Never handled a standard model, so I don't know just how that trigger was but I would expect it to be almost perfect, if not perfect like the precision shop models.

Whiterabbit got a great deal, especially with everything he got with it.

[ebner glocken]

I bought a new 50AE and sent it in to have a cylinder made for it in JRH. Prices have went up since but then I ended up having around $850 in the whole thing. I love this revolver it sits at the top of the heap, wish I had more time to play with it.

Ebner

[Whiterabbit]

WOW,WOW, almost double what I paid for a custom shop JRH.

Plus over 100 brass plus dies. Plus the JRH gripframe mod. Take those away and it's about retail price.

It might go back on the market. I've been on the fence about it. It's great in many ways but so is the 460, especially when it comes down to ergonomics during recoil and downrange performance. It's really hard to pick a favorite or a best. But I didn't buy 2 to keep 2, so SOMEthing is going on the market! And right now for my shooting, the 460 might have the edge on the JRH....

Dunno. That might reverse soon. But that's kind of the direction I'm going right now.

[27judge]

I used to have a 460 in a encore. it was a real shooter ,muzzle blast was wicked . I worked up some great cast loads for it, with full house loads it was a handful even with a brake. tks ken

[Dpmsman]

Any opinion on the 44 mag version I found one on clearance for $750. How hard can a 44 mag be pushed in a bfr?

[Whiterabbit]

well, pressure is pressure. On a technical standpoint, if they used the same metal and heat treat (if any) on the cylinder of the 44 mag vs 65ksi cartridges, then the pressure ceiling is 65ksi on your 44 mag.

That being said, I wouldn't want to take on that risk in an unscientific way.

[44man]

Any opinion on the 44 mag version I found one on clearance for $750. How hard can a 44 mag be pushed in a bfr?
Not how hard at all but the BFR has a 1 in 16" twist so very heavy boolits can be shot. I dare say it is stronger then a Ruger. I don't know the frame or cylinder used. But I would dearly like a BFR in .44.
I just wish we had barrel length choices. Used to have a choice.

[Whiterabbit]

That's a great point. I think the BFR has the longest cylinder of any production SA revolver out there (not counting the 3" frame and the S&W X-frame). If the 44 mag is built the same way, that means a ~1.875" cylinder, or somewhere around there. That would make for the ability to fit some pretty hefty bullets.

Or for home reaming to a case like a mini 445 supermag or the like.

If I wanted a stainless 44 mag, BFR would be above ruger on my wishlist.

[Dpmsman]

Cabela's has the 44mag on clearance for $750 so I decided to go that route. I have the dies, brass, and a couple of molds already. Need to get a good heavyweight mold though right now the Lyman 44 devistator mold is the heaviest I have.

[44man]

Cabela's has the 44mag on clearance for $750 so I decided to go that route. I have the dies, brass, and a couple of molds already. Need to get a good heavyweight mold though right now the Lyman 44 devistator mold is the heaviest I have.
I can't wait for results.
Try the lee 310.

[kenyerian]

Plus one on the Lee 310.

[Dpmsman]

Well I picked her up tonight from Cabela's so far so good. I also ordered the 310 lee mold from midway so I will post results when I get things going. Thanks again for all the help.

[monge]

This a gun I always wanted the BFR in 44mag let us know how it shoots great price there is a used one in my LGS for $850!

[Whiterabbit]

There's a gun you always wanted at your LGS for a price about 20% off retail?

hrm.


:)

[Dpmsman]

Well I got a chance to get the BFR out this weekend and being a relative beginner at casting I'm not sure what the results are pointing me towards. So here are the results. First I tried using open sights and found my groups hitting 8" low at 20yds so I contacted Magnum Research. They promptly sent out a new front sight but now my groups were 8" high. So I gave up on the sights and mounted a 2x Burris scope swapped off another revolver. All bullets were sized with a lee 430 push through die and pan lubed with 1lb Vaseline 1lb bees wax 1tbs stp mixture. All bullets were weighted and segregated by the grain. Groups were shot at 30yds rested.

Now I started loading first I tried the load 44man suggested lee 310grn over 21.5grs h110 fired by a federal 150 primer. Hear are the chronograph results

1. 1126 2. 1165 3. 1166 4. 1188 5. 1236 Es 110
this gave a 3 1/4" group

Second I tried the lee 310 grn over 2400 and found 16 & 16.5grns bullets punched the target sideways and 12" plus groups! So bad that I nicked the chrono. Once I tickled 1100 fps groups tightened up. But bullets aren't hitting square.

17.0 grns
1. 1104. 2. 1019. 3. 1111. 4. 1095. 5. 1098. Es81
3 1/2" group
17.5grns
1. 1142 2. 1114. 3. 1152. 4. 1119. 5. 1125 Es 38
6 1/2" group
Next I tried the lyman 429421 bullet over 20.5grns of 2400. Five were pan lubed and five were powder coated in HF red.

Pan lubed
1. 1271 2. 1313 3. 1207 4. 1328 5. 1283. Es106
8" group

Powder coated
1. 1346 2. 1352 3. 1326 4. 1340 5. 1342. Es26
2" well centered group

The 429421 mold I have is a newer one and like most of the new lyman moulds it casts on the small side most likely accounting for the poor accuracy. Another bullet I tried that showed great promise was the lyman devestator hp. I shot those up before mounting the scope so not sure if I was just having a good day. All bullets but the powder coated swc pushed through the cylinder with light pressure. I still need to slug the barrel and cylinder which might give some insight to some of the poor accuracy. No leading was observed. If anyone has any thoughts I'm open to suggestions.

[Whiterabbit]

My opinion, worth every penny you paid me:

#1 2400 only for the lyman. Worth trying H110.
#2 H110 only for the LEE bullet. Ditch 2400 entirely. Just H110.
#3 change your lube. Either recipe tweak or go commercial. If you go commercial, try something very different to see if it modulates. ideally harder.
#4 you have a good thing going with the LEE and H110. I think you just need to tweak the powder a smidge and try a new lube.
#5 you have a good thing going with the lyman and 2400. Ditto the last one, play with powder and try traditional lube.
#6 next round, stretch to 50 yards and go till you tighten up to 2" again.

I suggest a lubrisizer when you can. It's so much better than pan lubing for pistol.

Hows the muzzle look after 25 rounds of your panlubed bullets? is it wet?

Also, have you considered taking a file to the sight that shoots too low till it shoots at the elevation you want at the distance you want?

[Dpmsman]

After 25 rds the muzzle was slightly wet. I'm wondering if I have a fitment issue being as most bullets seemed to naw. I need to slug it just don't have any soft lead right now. I did consider filing the front sight I might do that after I find ( The load ). A lubrisizer would be great just not in the cards right now. What should a guy get? Does the type of lube have that much to do with accuracy? I thought it was more about bore leading. What kind of accuracy can I expect? I thought 2-3" at 100yds with a scope is that out of line?

[Whiterabbit]

might, but I can make bullets do the same thing with the wrong powder or the wrong charge. I wouldn't sweat it. Confirm the fit in the throat and move on in life. that load is just not to be.

when you get it all developed out, I don't think 3" at 100 yards is out of line for a BFR. Just took me many cycles of development to get there. Hopefully you can shortcut it.

[44man]

A lube too slippery will unseat boolits early from the primer, need more STICKY like Felix lube or try LBT Soft Blue. Lube is so VERY important for accuracy.
Get some 296, I had no luck with H110 except a standard RH. Yeah, yeah same powder but different batches.
A wet bore and muzzle is really a no no with smokeless. You need even friction.
The .44 is very fussy about even case tension, if you feel differences when seating, you will not group.
You might need to get the Lee 310 near 1300 fps. H110 seems a tad slower by 1/2 gr compared to 296 so try 22 gr.
Try harder boolits, you could be skidding with the faster 1 in 16" twist rate. I use water dropped WW metal for 22 BHN.
Darn, wish I could afford one.
Leave the sight alone until you have the perfect load. Where you hit paper is of no concern when working loads.

[Dpmsman]

Well after thinking about it (earth shaking) I remembered a guy gave me some round balls and wouldn't you know there was some 45 cal. I slugged the barrel and one of the throats wouldn't ya know the barrel is 431.5 and the throat 430. This can't be good for cast accuracy.

[44man]

Utterly strange for a BFR. I have measured many and bores are always perfect.
Your gun is listed as a .430" groove. Barrels are cut rifled and hand lapped.
I think you got something wrong measuring.

[Dpmsman]

I guess that's possible. I took the round ball placed it on the muzzle, tapped it down and through using a dowel and improvised hammer. I measured the groves not sure how I could have screwed it up. I will admit my cheap Cabela's digital caliper is not the best. I do have a micrometer but I'm not sure I'm reading it right.

[Dpmsman]

A lube too slippery will unseat boolits early from the primer, need more STICKY like Felix lube or try LBT Soft Blue. Lube is so VERY important for accuracy.
Get some 296, I had no luck with H110 except a standard RH. Yeah, yeah same powder but different batches.
A wet bore and muzzle is really a no no with smokeless. You need even friction.
The .44 is very fussy about even case tension, if you feel differences when seating, you will not group.
You might need to get the Lee 310 near 1300 fps. H110 seems a tad slower by 1/2 gr compared to 296 so try 22 gr.
Try harder boolits, you could be skidding with the faster 1 in 16" twist rate. I use water dropped WW metal for 22 BHN.
Darn, wish I could afford one.
Leave the sight alone until you have the perfect load. Where you hit paper is of no concern when working loads.

I will try some 296 a local gunshop just got some in the other day. I crimp separetly with the Lee FCD. I'm using once fired mixed brass mostly cheap stuff PMC and the like. Maybe it would pay to get some starline brass. I did notice some of the brass had pronounced bulges right above the web, those were tossed. My alloy is 70/30 COWW to Linotype air cooled. I do not have a hardness tester. I'll water drop next time. It might be tuff to get over 1300fps with the 5" barrel without major pressure signs. At 21.5grns of H110 the primers are flattening and there's some flow back around the firing pin hole. extraction is no problem though.

[44man]

Your alloy should be OK.
You are doing good with mixed brass and a FCD, I don't like the thing and use very little roll crimp, just enough to fold to the bottom of the crimp groove and that is not much with a lee boolit. Lee hired a worn out rooster to scratch the grooves! :bigsmyl2:
Pay attention as you seat boolits and feel each one go in. I can measure seating pressure and a looser boolit can shoot as much as 10" from a tight one. I shot IHMSA long ago and figured out my measuring tool so I could sort rounds and I was using Hornady bullets. The differences were amazing and it is more important with cast because of the lube.
Another thing I found was brand new brass had the largest variations and I made tests that proved it. Here are 50 shots with a scoped gun from a rest at 50 yards.161611 Brass fired more will even out and my best groups have been fired with brass fired, believe it or not, 40X. I still shoot brass bought in 1980! If you buy new brass, shoot it some before accuracy testing. Another thing you can do is size, expand, size, expand about 3 times. That will work the brass some. I had one old case split after all these years but brand new brass can get a split. You would not shoot this new brass at 200 meters!
Next thing to do is send to Wolfe Springs and get a spring pack of 3 26# variable over power hammer springs. Change out your spring, Ruger and BFR springs are not good and will take a set, Most run 21 to 23# at the start. As soon as my accuracy fell off, I changed the spring, bought packs of springs from Ruger until I bought Wolfe. BFR is a big Ruger!
One other thing you can do is to sort out any brass that is not in the group, use it for can loads. Yes, it will be the brass, not you or the gun.
Don't worry too much about flat primers. They are just re seating and is common in the .44. You have the best revolver made today and the 5" is closer to 6" they way MR measures them from the frame front. Good to go.
I don't know what else to add yet, now it is up to you.
Almost forgot, I found the brass problem and tested dies, even had collar BR dies made. Most failed except the BR dies but are a big pain to use. I found Hornady New Dimension dies to equal my BR dies in accuracy. Some dies can be thrown at deer before a round will connect. Don't fall for "M" die stuff or larger expanders, just keep boolits tough enough to expand brass as you seat. Your round should look like a snake that swallowed a pig. I see the base and ripples from GG's on my brass. Brass will size a soft boolit, works better the other way around.

[Dpmsman]

161625Thanks for all the great advice I will put it to good use. I will slug the barrel again and see if I've made a mistake. What do the over power hammer springs do to help accuracy? Here are a couple of my targets to me all but the PCed 429421 bullet aren't hitting square.161626
Sorry about the photos I have to figure this out but the lower pic is the 429421. The holes with the marks on them are the non PCed.

[44man]

Primers need a certain impact. To barely go off is not right. Some time ago a BR shooter with a very expensive rifle action had groups go to pot. He fooled with brass and everything but all got worse. then one day the bolt back popped off. The firing pin spring was unscrewing and got weaker strikes. He tightened it back to get to one hole groups and then adjusted the spring to make a chart to predict spring pressure to group size. I found that long before with revolvers and a primer that just goes off is not good enough. To watch my shooting change meant the spring was getting weak. Yes, I was good enough to tell you what primer you used. I could tell between H110 and 296.

[44man]

Spin the boolit. The difference can be 50 FPS. Revolver shooters ignore twist and say a 300 gr+ will shoot slow. Not to be.161628 Shotgun pattern at 50 with a heavy boolit at 1100 fps. Famous Unique load posted. 161629 Same boolit at 50 with spin.

[ole 5 hole group]

Over power hammer springs - like rifle firing pin springs, reduce lock-time which can aid accuracy in firearms. Lock-time can be defined as the time interval between sear release and the firing-pin striking the primer. This really can come into play with muzzle loaders.

It can improve the accuracy of a revolver but it didn't improve any of my revolvers accuracy but that could be because my revolvers were excellent out of the box or else my shooting ability is so poor that I need more trigger time. It is an inexpensive modification to your revolver and it won't adversely affect your revolver, at least that I know of.

In benchrest most of us went with over powered firing pin springs - David Tubb and others sold springs and I purchased a few along with firing pins having titanium tips - all in the name of improving lock time to shoot smaller groups. I can't say any of that or barrel freezing improve anything with me behind the trigger - but others saw an improvement and that's why I did it.;)

[Dpmsman]

Well I brought the gun to a smith and had him look at it. 429 pin gauge would enter the throats with a little slop. 430 would not enter at all. He measured the two barrel slugs I took at 431. I'm going to talk to magnum research and see if they'll open the throats for me.

[44man]

It could happen and since MR was bought out, will we get the same?

[Dpmsman]

Well I called MR the customer service rep said he would have to get back to me. Is a tuff job to open up the throats best left to a smith or can a novice with no machining experience do it?

[44man]

See if MR can help first but yes you can do it. If you need, I will explain how later.

[Dpmsman]

After reading a thread on cylinder throat reaming I think I might try some more load development. Those devestator bullets I shot that grouped so well were of a softer 50/50 COWW to SOWW alloy. Maybe softer might be the way to go. Can a GCed boolit still obturate?

[44man]

After reading a thread on cylinder throat reaming I think I might try some more load development. Those devestator bullets I shot that grouped so well were of a softer 50/50 COWW to SOWW alloy. Maybe softer might be the way to go. Can a GCed boolit still obturate?
I do not believe in obturation, fit is better. A GC will grab rifling and stop skid unless your boolit is too soft. Most boolits skid but it must stop before the base band so there is a seal there. A GC allows a little softer lead.
Watch the SO weights, last batch I had were mostly zinc. Sort and smelt separate before adding any to your batch. Anything that floats at 600°, toss. The painted ones can be EVIL!
One thing to watch is make sure the GC is the same size as your boolit, never larger. If your boolit drops .430" or .431", etc. Do not use a larger size die to seat a GC. What happens is the check will size the brass when you seat larger then the boolit so tension will be lost.
Do you NEED a GC in a revolver? Not that I found and I shoot PB up to the .500, just get a tough boolit.
This is a 440 gr boolit, PB at 1350 fps from my BFR .500 JRH at 100 yards. The boolits recovered showed skid 3/4 down but the base seals. 161691 Just WD WW boolits. Kind of crazy to hit a shotgun shell at 100 with an Ultra Dot. I admit to taking 2 shots at it, the first was 1/2" to the right. A red dot is not precision no matter how you look at it. It is sort of a shock to see the shell gone and can't be explained. Twists the brain. A stupid revolver!

[Dpmsman]

That's one hell of a shot makes me wish I went for the JRH.

[44man]

My .475 and 45-70 shoot the same. My friends have been buying BFR's and they all shoot.
I can say a SRH should not be over looked either. Or the Hunter model.
I have a few friends that still shoot nothing but bullets, they don't understand how a hunk of lead can shoot.
My .44 costs me a dime a shot and the .500 JRH is about 12 or 13 cents. I feel no pain to open a box for a friend to shoot. Ever see prices of even factory loads of cast .500's? My gosh, some reach $2 a shot!
But things have gone crazy, friend bought no. 11 caps and they were over $6.50 a hundred. Then look at GC's. I used to get caps for 75 cents and thought that was too much.