7.65 Argentine

[jeep421]

I nave not fired my box off ppu yet. I recieved some once fired 7.65 ARG ppu from a friend. He shot them through his 1909 ARG. Without working brass the bolt will not close. So I ran them through my lee FL die and still wont close. I keep turning the die and trying. I cannot get my bolt to close. I am starting to think my lee die is defective.

[reed1911]

What is the OAL of the brass? It may be that it has stretched some and needs to be trimmed. Are you completely cammed over on the brass with the shell holder camming on the die?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Did you follow the instructions that came with the sizing die? That would most likely be to run the ram to the top of the stroke so that it is all the way up, and then screw the die down to touch it. There should be no further adjustment necessary, and your resized cases should then fit into any 7.65x53mm chamber.

The other thought that comes to mind: What kind of a rifle do you own? Have you ever fired it? Will the fired brass fit back into your rifle's chamber?
Have you tried resizing the brass fired in your rifle yet, and how did that turn out?

DG

[leadman]

Does the unfired PPU brass fit in the chamber? There is a trend going on now to set the barrel back for a 308 Win cartridge so it is possible you have one of these?

I had problems with the Lee dies so bought the RCBS 7.65 Belgian dies and all is good.

[EDG]

Yes your Lee dies are too long by about .018. Check this older thread. The Lee die is the last one in the table.
You can see the rifle chamber lengths and the lengths of several other dies. Buy RCBS dies or get a machinist to cut .018 to .020 off of the bottom of your sizer die.
You can verify that your rifle is ok by chambering loaded PPU ammo. It is about max length. If it chambers your chamber is ok and the die needs rework or replacement with an RCBS die.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?295644-7-65X53-Mauser-Chambers-dies-brass-ammo-and-case-forming

[runfiverun]

the LEE dies are for the X54 [Belgian] you need the rcbs dies that are for the X53 [argentine] round.
I have both dies and both types of rifles.
I use the lee as the initial forming die then use the rcbs to final shape them for the second rifle.

you could grind about 1 mm off either the die or a shell holder and get the length down to fit your rifle.

[EDG]

There is only one cartridge and one standard chamber. Measure the fired cases, factory ammo, and the dies. You will find there are short, long and just right dies. The reason for the variations are sloppy die manufacturing. Lee dies are too long. Older CH dies and Hornady/Pacific dies are too short. RCBS marked Belgian and Lyman dies marked Argentine are very close to the same length. Wilson makes a case gauge that for the Belgian version and it matches my Argentine rifles.
Both Norma and PPU ammo and unfired brass matches my Argentine rifles and the Wilson gauges and the RCBS and Lyman dies.
There is also a CIP standard drawing and it matches my Argentine rifles, RCBS and Lyman dies, the Wilson gauge, the Norma and PPU ammo and new factory brass from both Norma and PPU.



the LEE dies are for the X54 [Belgian] you need the rcbs dies that are for the X53 [argentine] round.
I have both dies and both types of rifles.
I use the lee as the initial forming die then use the rcbs to final shape them for the second rifle.

you could grind about 1 mm off either the die or a shell holder and get the length down to fit your rifle.

[jugulater]

Is your 7.65x53 a 1891 model, if so is it a DWM or Loewe made gun? Part of the 1891s have tight chambers and the other part have looser chambers, i have one of each, the looser chamber will accept anything while the tigher chamber requires overly sized cases.

I also agree with the above about the RCBS dies, they are marked 7.65x54 Belgian, but they also work fine for 7.65x53 Argentine.

Also for case forming I suggest the RCBS 7.65x54 Belgian Form/Trim die, my die makes the cases a bit small and i have to fireform them to get a perfect shoulder, but it works!

[leadman]

If you are camming over your press handle there is another thing you can try. Place an automotive feeler gauge under the case in the shell holder. Most will take a .020" gauge. This raises the case up so the die will size more of it. Raise the decapper up or it will punch a hole in the gauge. I was surprised at how little effort it took to do this when I did it.
If that does not work you can send them to me and I will resize them with my RCBS Belgian marked die and send them back to you.
I have the RCBS trim die also and it makes it very easy to reform any 30-06 size cases to 7.65 X 53. A normal hacksaw blade will not harm this die so it makes it easy to trim them.
If you ever decide to reform any brass for this rifle do not try to do it in one stroke of the press handle. I run the ram up and when tthe effort get a little harder I raise the handle and take another run at it. It may take 5 or more attempts to reform the case but this method reduces the incidents of folds in the shoulder.
Just so you know, the last "surplus" ammo to come in the country about 15 years ago was made on the worn out Argentine machinery and is longer base to shoulder than it should be. Some guns will accept it, some not.
The Argentine spec for case length is 53.5mm, taken from copies of the original contracts with Mauser. Many years ago I had Norma boxes that were marked 7.65 X 54, but currently most call it the 7.65 X 53.

[EDG]

Is your 7.65x53 a 1891 model, if so is it a DWM or Loewe made gun? Part of the 1891s have tight chambers and the other part have looser chambers, i have one of each, the looser chamber will accept anything while the tigher chamber requires overly sized cases.

I also agree with the above about the RCBS dies, they are marked 7.65x54 Belgian, but they also work fine for 7.65x53 Argentine.

Also for case forming I suggest the RCBS 7.65x54 Belgian Form/Trim die, my die makes the cases a bit small and i have to fireform them to get a perfect shoulder, but it works!


I also have both a RCBS and CH trim dies and the brass forms a little radius as it goes around the corner of the shoulder and neck.
These radii disappear the first time the brass is fired. It is normal to have a mismatch with formed cases.

I have (2) M91s that are DWM and (1) M91 Ludwig Lowe - with matching bolts. None of these are heavily used rifles.
I have a very heavily used M98/09 Engineers Carbine with most of the rifling worn out. It key holes and it has the same chamber head to shoulder length as the 3 1891 rifles.

This is the head to shoulder dim using a .375 gauge bushing. Avg = 1.8207 (calculated number)


M1891 DWM

1.822


M1891 Lowe
1.821


M1891 DWM
1.820


M1898/09
1.820

[Der Gebirgsjager]

We're just spinning in the wind here until the O.P. gets back to us with the answers to the very basic questions I asked him.

I always look for the simplest answers/possibilities first, because sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. I'm put in mind of a guy on another forum (which I no longer visit) who asked for help with an 1891 he had purchased over the internet from a dealer. When he got it he inserted the bolt which was packed separately and then couldn't get it back out. I figured that somehow the bolt sleeve assembly had turned and it was jammed in the bolt raceway and just needed to be turned back clockwise or the whole thing given a good smack with a mallet to get it out. We went back and forth at least four times with me giving him advice. Then he was contacted by the dealer who had shipped an Arisaka bolt with the Argie Mauser and wanted to swap around. So, I approach these things with caution..........:shock:

[Twmaster]

The Lee dies are too long as has been stated. I had to send mine back to Lee for modifications. Once returned the ammo produced cycled fine in my old Argie Sporter.