Black powder pistol primer question

[crackerjack57]

I have a new 1851 rebel deluxe 44 cal pistol. i am brand new to black powder pistol shooter and was wondering about the primer. im loading .445 round ball and about 25 gn of geox 3f. with every shot the primer cap is being blown to bits. they are just a gnarled mess. sometimes they are making it hard to cock the gun for the next shot. is this the way it should be or am i doing something wrong??

Thats it!! simple!!

Thanx all.

[Washington1331]

Welcome to the pistol darkside, crackerjack. Unfortunately the original Colt cap and ball revolvers were known to develop a jam with their percussion caps after firing. If you do a quick search on google, you'll find a bunch of hits where people advocate cocking the revolver almost upside down to prevent the expended cap from jamming the mechanism. If you're using the stock nipples, that might be one thing that you can change to prevent the catastrophic destruction of the percussion cap. I've had good luck switching my stock nipples on my cap and ball revolvers out to these: http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=5854. Switching out seemed to help out with the messyness of the cap destruction.

Also, could you confirm the size of your round ball? Is it .445 or .454? If you're using the .445 you're using too small of a round ball. You want to use a ball bigger than the cylinder diameter so that when the ball is seated a small ring of lead is shaved off. That way you're positive that you're sealing the chamber, which will prevent chain fires and also keep your round balls from sliding forward under recoil; this would create an airspace between your powder and ball. Not a good situation to be in with black powder.

Again, welcome to the darkside (black powder). Let me know if you have any further questions, I'm more than happy to help.

[Vann]

It's not the way it should be, but it is normal. The fix usually involves changing nipples, welding up the groove in the hammer, and or changing the brand of caps that you are using.

I'd look into another brand of caps first, then look into the nipples, or welding the groove in the hammer if changing caps doesn't help.

Some times the flash hole in the nipples is to large which will let to much pressure come back on the cap.

[rancher1913]

I've sometimes used number 10 instead of number 11, the tighter fit seamed to help.

[crackerjack57]

Hey Washington 1331. you were asking if i was using .445 0r .454 size round balls. its the .454 rounds that im using. every time i ram one of those into the cylinder i get a little shaving of lead and as far as I know this is right. I noticed you said something about the proper fitting ball will prevent chain fires so the .454 size when the lead is very tight in the cylinder. i was told to smear Crisco around the ball sealing any gaps between the cylinder and ball thus preventing chain fires. am I to assume that if a tight fitting ball is in that cylinder i can forget about using Crisco? or should I still be using Crisco just for the lube aspect? I did notice that there were a lot of hair like fibers of lead in the barrel. it wiped out in one pass and not really a huge bother just wondering if that would be normal too.

now for the caps. the easiest thing for me would be getting different brand caps for starters. that's the first thing I will do to try. i don't like the idea of welding the gap on the hammer as I would rather leave the gun stock. possibly nipples down the road but if this is just the nature of the beast then i better suck it up princess!! ;-)

how much 3f geox powder should I be using?? im pouring in somewhere between 25-28 grains. and as it seems right now the pistol is shooting a little to the left of aim point however this could just be me at this point as its a whole new kettle of fish for me.

and thanx guys for the advice on this. being new to black powder in this pistol and my 45-70 buffalo classic..... im having a ball!! i was always of the mind set that its the "old stuff" and that the new is better. there might be some pro's to the new but i tell you, shooting black in my 45-70 I defiantly don't feel like a light weight in any sense of the word.

[SSGOldfart]

Hey Washington 1331. you were asking if i was using .445 0r .454 size round balls. its the .454 rounds that im using. every time i ram one of those into the cylinder i get a little shaving of lead and as far as I know this is right. I noticed you said something about the proper fitting ball will prevent chain fires so the .454 size when the lead is very tight in the cylinder. i was told to smear Crisco around the ball sealing any gaps between the cylinder and ball thus preventing chain fires. am I to assume that if a tight fitting ball is in that cylinder i can forget about using Crisco? or should I still be using Crisco just for the lube aspect? I did notice that there were a lot of hair like fibers of lead in the barrel. it wiped out in one pass and not really a huge bother just wondering if that would be normal too.

now for the caps. the easiest thing for me would be getting different brand caps for starters. that's the first thing I will do to try. i don't like the idea of welding the gap on the hammer as I would rather leave the gun stock. possibly nipples down the road but if this is just the nature of the beast then i better suck it up princess!! ;-)

how much 3f geox powder should I be using?? im pouring in somewhere between 25-28 grains. and as it seems right now the pistol is shooting a little to the left of aim point however this could just be me at this point as its a whole new kettle of fish for me.

and thanx guys for the advice on this. being new to black powder in this pistol and my 45-70 buffalo classic..... im having a ball!! i was always of the mind set that its the "old stuff" and that the new is better. there might be some pro's to the new but i tell you, shooting black in my 45-70 I defiantly don't feel like a light weight in any sense of the word.
Sir pm me a address,I'll send you a sample of Hillbilly Lube,cuts out most of the mess from using Crisco. Most chain fires are caused by powder miss management, next time you shoot after your first shot,look at the cylinder and see where your Crisco went,I'm betting you blow most all of it onto you and the ground. I'm kinda new with the dark side revolvers myself just about 45 years of playing with them.
Stay safe,

[Vann]

As far as powder charge, you can back it all the way down to around 15 grains with no problems. I use 20 with a round ball for most of my paper punching, it saves powder and is the most accurate load. I have gone all the way up to 35 grains just to see what it would do, but out of my 5 inch barrels I found that I was better off around 20 to 25 grains. I do not recommend a steady diet of 30+ grains, over time it will loosen up the gun.

[Idz]

In my Pietta army and navy 44cal I use about 23 gr Goex 3F, a 1/8" thick lubed wad (homemade), and a .454 soft lead ball. I make my own percussion caps out of double layer soda can material and they seem more reliable than commercial caps and less likely to fracture. The navy has a safety notch cutout in the hammer that some people fill in to reduce cap fracturing.

[StrawHat]

Fairly simple to install a cap rake and end the problems.

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/colt_cap_and_ball.pdf

Kevin

[doc1876]

I had one that had been welded, and the weld pealed off, would not recommend that.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm assuming you are right handed (as most of us are) so when you are shooting that '51, do the "Colt twist" when cocking the piece. As you cock with your right hand, twist the pistol to the right in your hand which will greatly help in clearing cap fragments. I've been shooting '51 Navies for 50 some years and have never altered the hammer or anything else on any of the '51s I've had and it is very rare that I have a cap fragment issue. This tip was given to me by a 80 year + old gunsmith who taught me how to shoot Navies over 50 years ago and I have often heard others speak of this technique as well.

[crackerjack57]

hey all!! thanx for the great input!! early in the responses Vann made a quick statement of different type of caps. I did a look around town as to what was available for brands of caps. the ones im using now are CCI #10's. the others that are somewhat readily available are the Remington #10 caps. can anyone weigh in on possible differences in terms of durability on these two brands? might the Remington caps be made a little thicker??

and bedbugbilly, thanx for the suggestion on the "Colt twist" I will try that but these caps are so bent up that most of the time its beyond the twisting action

[Texantothecore]

Get:
Treso #11 nipples
CCI #11 caps
Cash spiral cap loader. It squeezes down the caps tight on your nipples and the caps won't fall off.

Enjoy. The three items made a huge difference enjoying my 1851 Navy 36 cal.

[bignut]

The best caps bar none are RWS, they are 10.5 as I recall. They split but don't blow apart. That come in a red. An of 100, and have German nomenclature on a bluish lable.

[bedbugbilly]

Cap fragments can be a problem but our ancestors knew the "Colt twist". Don't cock your C & B like a modern revolver by just reaching up with you thumb and cocking. As you cock it, twist your wrist to the right which usually helps clear fragments. While I have had many C & B revolvers that I've shot over the last 50+ years, the 1851 Navy in the "Navy Caliber" (.36) has always been my favorite. In fact, I learned to shoot C & B with an original '51 Navy.

Try backing your load charge back as well. C & B revolvers ae no different than a modern smokeless revolver. Work your load until you find the "sweet spot". Think about the design of the revolver, when it discharges, as the ball goes out it is also pushing back into the cylinder and if you have a cap that is prone to be soft etc. - that blow back helps to frag,went it as well. At one time, many years ago, I watched an individual (I was going to say idiot) stuff as much BP as he could in to a revolver. His nipples were not the best and probably had a rather large vent hole through them. When he shot the blowback actually forced the hammer back. As the old gunsmith (who was close to 90 at the time) that taught me how to shoot BP over 50 years ago said . . . "use enough powder to get the job done but not so much as to waste any".

[Geezer in NH]

Use JB Weld epoxy to fill the hammer crack. If it ever falls out just apply it again.

RWS caps are the best IMHO. they were hard to find for a while but are around now.

[brad925]

Hey Washington 1331. you were asking if i was using .445 0r .454 size round balls. its the .454 rounds that im using. every time i ram one of those into the cylinder i get a little shaving of lead and as far as I know this is right. I noticed you said something about the proper fitting ball will prevent chain fires so the .454 size when the lead is very tight in the cylinder. i was told to smear Crisco around the ball sealing any gaps between the cylinder and ball thus preventing chain fires. am I to assume that if a tight fitting ball is in that cylinder i can forget about using Crisco? or should I still be using Crisco just for the lube aspect? I did notice that there were a lot of hair like fibers of lead in the barrel. it wiped out in one pass and not really a huge bother just wondering if that would be normal too.

now for the caps. the easiest thing for me would be getting different brand caps for starters. that's the first thing I will do to try. i don't like the idea of welding the gap on the hammer as I would rather leave the gun stock. possibly nipples down the road but if this is just the nature of the beast then i better suck it up princess!! ;-)

how much 3f geox powder should I be using?? im pouring in somewhere between 25-28 grains. and as it seems right now the pistol is shooting a little to the left of aim point however this could just be me at this point as its a whole new kettle of fish for me.

and thanx guys for the advice on this. being new to black powder in this pistol and my 45-70 buffalo classic..... im having a ball!! i was always of the mind set that its the "old stuff" and that the new is better. there might be some pro's to the new but i tell you, shooting black in my 45-70 I defiantly don't feel like a light weight in any sense of the word.

Just to clarify. You don't actually have to electrode weld the gap shut. The use of JB Weld epoxy works just fine and after its set up you will just have to file it down to smooth it out. Just remember these guns have their fair share of little quirks but thats half the fun. Enjoy!!

[Wayne Smith]

And forget the Crisco - it just melts out at the first round. Instead load a lubed wool wad (I cut and lube my own with Emmert's) between the powder and ball. I wouldn't keep one loaded this way, I'm sure the oils in the lube would eventually degrade the powder. It is fine for range use, though.