Ordered a Walther PPQ .45 (polygonal) - will be shooting lead

[ghh3rd]

I just put a Walther PPQ in .45 on layaway and will pick it up in 90 days or less. I've been casting for my 38, 40, 44 and 45-70, but don't have anything for .45 ACP, so I'll be researching molds and picking up some dies, etc.

This barrel has polygonal rifling, like a my Glock. Although I purchased an aftermarket barrel with regular rifling for my Glock, this time I am going to shoot cast through my PPQ polygonal barrel and don't expect any issues.

I was hesitant at first to consider doing so, but when I called Walther they didn't discourage it, but did say to watch bullet hardness, sizing, and to keep a close eye on leading.

In fact, although all PPQ 45's have polygonal rifling, it's interesting that the Walther PPQ 45 manual states "Never use non-standard, reloaded, or “handloaded” ammunition which has not been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing" and "Use a good powder-removing solvent and brass bristle bore brush to remove lead and firing residue from the interior of the barrel."

Thanks a far cry from other manufacturers stating that their warranty is void if one uses reloads, whether their barrel is polygonal or not.

Anyone else have a PPQ 45 that they want to share their experiences with?

Randy

[Piedmont]

I've no experience with the Walther or a Glock but have several thousand cast rounds through my Kahr K9 that has polygonal rifling. I would not hesitate to shoot cast in any of them. It would be wise to slug the throat of your barrel (the portion just before the rifling begins) with an oversized round ball pounded in from the breech. Size your bullets to throat diameter. If that causes any chambering problems size a thousandth smaller. Then keep an eye on the barrel for leading. If it accumulates, clean, and try to figure out what you are doing wrong that is causing leading.

The .45 ACP is a user-friendly cartridge for handloaders.

[Catshooter]

For my Glocks I size as large as possible and water drop 'em. Works well.

Good luck with your PPQ.


Cat

[Ramjet-SS]

Get copper pot scrubber cut a patch wrap it around a nylon brush Soak Butches bore shine and run it back and forth three times all the lead will be gone.

Yup up water drop size over bore by .001 and have some fun.

[ghh3rd]

I like this product http://www.big45.com/ which is like copper pot scrubber material, but better. A couple of passes without any solvent necessary, and lead disappears. I figure that I'll be checking for lead in the polygonal barrel frequently, especially at first, and while making any adjustments to boolit size, and will come prepared to run this through the barrel if necessary.

[Handloader109]

I only do 9mm and 22tcm and have a PPQ in 9mm. The 45 is singing it's siren song to me... Make it stop! :-)
Let us know how well it does..... I might can wait 90 days......

[speeddy]

I got a Walther ppq m2 45. Only have been to range 2 times first time shot 80 rounds fmj I called walther and asked factory can you shot lead bullets in a poly barrel sence i seen glock had problems .Walther arms told me that gun could handy it so I went back to range week later shot 12 rounds let the barrel cool down between mags on 3 mag slide locked down with a shell half out way ejected. I could not get the slide to work.I called walther they told they was sending a label to ship it back after I shipped it to Walther.few days later on fri even they called said the barrel had a bulge due to leading. And I would have to pay over 220.00 to get my new gun repaired.I told the man I read the manual and it don t say a word or warning not to shoot lead bullets.If walther didn t want people to shoot lead bulets they should be a warning tag on trigger.There life time warrenty don t mean anything.I even told the man while he was phone sending me the label i hF shot lead bullets he told me should be ok with that gun.What gets me I could have got hurt and walther is over looking it.I will be contacting product safety commission. An a Lawyer .I had just got a holster in mail from clinger holster it is a really nice holster for 29.00 i waited weeks for it to be made. Had gun couldn t fine mags couldn t fine a holster for months now got a holster and no gun to take my cwp class wich im already signed up for the 26. Its all been a big mess from day one when delayed shipping my gun on oct 15. Like walther promised.It was embarrassing to have locked up ppq while a man next to with me 160.00 high point with no problems laughing . And the bullets was factory lead.I wouldn t recommend the Walther ppq m2 45 to anybody they have a big problem and want us to pay for it. Soon I ll let ya ll know how it worked out send pics bulged barrel.

[ghh3rd]

Sorry that happened to ya speeddy ... It sounds ike you have had your Walther since October or November. Did you ensure that all of the copper fouling from your jacketed rounds was thoroughly cleaned out of your barrel before you switched to cast boolits? The copper fouling can catch lead and and cause leading, which can build up more quickly in a polygonal barrel.

Also, before using lead, especially in a polygonal barrel, you need to slug the barrel to see what the dimension is, and be sure that your lead boolit is sized correctly - perhaps your barrel didn't like the size of your boolits?

It would think that the only thing that is damaged is your barrel... you can ask them... if so, you can purchase a drop in aftermarket barrel with conventional rifling, that would allow you to shoot cast boolits without any additional risk of leading.

When I get my Walther and load lead, I'll be checking for leading frequently at first, until I'm comfortable that everything is going well, and semi-frequently afterward.

Best of luck with everything - Randy

[Spector]

What were the specs on the lead boolits you shot? Weight, diameter, BNH? Are the chambers fully supported or like Glocks?

I had a catastrophic case failure in my Glock 21 and will never fire another reloaded case in an unsupported chamber in any pistol.

Mike

[Art in Colorado]

Thanks for the tip on Big 45 Bore Scruber. Presently using bronze wool but for $6.00 it is worth a try.Art

[ghh3rd]

I'll bet that you like it... the stuff really gets tough fouling out of a barrel quickly. The company says that due to the nature of their alloy, you can rub it on bluing without damaging it, and that it will only remove rust. I was skeptical, but my son has an old pellet rifle that had rust on the barrel -- we tested the Big 45, kind of vigorously, and rust was gone from the barrel, and the bluing wasn't affected.

No, I don't work the them :-)

[GONRA]

GONRA assumes speeddy is shootin' lead bullet HANDLOADS.
If this is true, Wather is gonna tell you one round
didn't have any powder,
or too much powder, or etc....

[CHeatermk3]

I'm having trouble with leading in the bore causing a bulge in the barrel. Don't seem likely--

[bstone5]

Powder coating the lead bullets might help in keeping the lead out of the barrel. Powder coating and a gas check will work even better.
Powder coating is easy with the shake and bake method if the bullets are clean and fresh from a mold.

[rototerrier]

I've been working for months trying to get PC Cast to work in the PPQ 45, I just gave up yesterday.

Every combination of alloy from super soft to super hard, every combination of PC from single to double coat and brand and color would not work. Also tried varying loads from Win231 to TiteGroup to CFE Pistol to Promo. No powders made a difference. Tried sizes from .451 all the way up to .454 with larger performing better, but not solving a leading issue. Even tried varying thicknesses of PC with no sizing, to the point the cases would bulge and not even chamber. Eventually found a very thin PC that would just allow things to function without needing the be sized, and that didn't help either.

Tried light crimping, tried heavy crimping. Tried LEE FCD Crimping and then switched to a regular Hornady taper crump die.

Tried Round Nose, tried Truncated Cone, and even tried the TC Tumble Lube design. No differences, other than the TL design seems to Dry tuble Powder Coat better.

Also tried different seating depths.

Bore slugs to .4505

With all this testing, no matter what I tried, I would get skid marks at the chamber. After about 4 shots fired, accuracy would completely fall off. Bullets would literally be flying all over the place. Zero consistency. Clean the barrel really well and you might get another good 4 shots before things went nuts again.

I was joined by a friend during all of this testing who would shoot the same bullets and perform all the same tests with a FNX Tactical with Conventional Rifling. Almost every single bullet would perform flawlessly. We would get a little skidding with the smaller bullets and a little skidding depending on crimp and powder, but accuracy never falls off.

Basically, the FNX with conventional rifling would shoot anything we threw at it without fail. My Walther PPQ 45, simply will not shoot cast bullets, period.

Yesterday was my last day. I've put about 1000 rounds down the barrel in my attempts to come up with something that will work and it just ain't happening. This gun is officially relegated to shooting j-words, at least until someone comes out with an aftermarket barrel. Once that happens, I'll be a happy camper.

[speeddy]

I had to call Germany. they didn t want to send my gun back with the bulge in barrel because i wasn t gonna pay for a barrel .He got my gun reaired and back on my hand 3 days and the sales ceo sent me a letter .Stating not to shoot any lead bullet in that ppq 45. I love the way tje gun feels and shoots but somebody needs to make an aftermart rifled barrel. For gun and stock the clips. I bet i shot 20 to 30,000 lead bullets out S/W 44 mag no problems.

[DougGuy]

You fellas having fitment issues and leading issues, the PPQ is no different than other modern mfgr's barrels, there is NOT enough throat in the barrel to accomodate a .452" for one, and not enough length in what little throat there is to allow seating to a COA that you would prefer, IF the barrel would allow it.

I have had a few in for throating and they shoot lights out afterwards. Lots of the guns we use for cast have to be properly throated for cast, both revolvers AND autos. It makes a WORLD of difference trust me.

Kahr barrel (Walther made) with polygonal rifling, AFTER throating. Before you give up on it, consider this...

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Kahr%20P45%20polygonal/DSC04932%20Custom_zpsx2zh6d8z.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Kahr%20P45%20polygonal/DSC04932%20Custom_zpsx2zh6d8z.jpg.html)

[rototerrier]

I should have updated my results. I had Doug do my barrel after giving up on alloy testing. I can now shoot anything. The problem was the barrel and not the alloy, bullet profile, or powder coat. Anyone having issues should most definitely have Doug work his magic on it.

[speeddy]

So what your saying the gun walther ppq 45 can be fixed to shoot cast? If so will it shoot any dif? How will it cost i really don t know what im looking at in pic sorry hate to say it

[DougGuy]

So what your saying the gun walther ppq 45 can be fixed to shoot cast? If so will it shoot any dif? How will it cost i really don t know what im looking at in pic sorry hate to say it

Almost all of the modern auto pistols are only manufactured and tested with factory ammo, which in the case of the .45 ACP is usually .451" diameter jacketed bullets, some makers test with TC hollowpoints like the Hornady, some test only with hardball, very few are set up to shoot semi wadcutters, and almost NONE are set up for shooting handloads or any loads with .452" diameter bullets or cast boolits, and this is our (handloaders/reloaders) most chosen boolit diameter.

Here is a classic example, this is a Springfield barrel with the stock factory throat on the left, and after throating on the right it will plunk and shoot .452" cast boolits with ease, seated out ever how long you want to seat them provided they will cycle through the magazine, there is less pressure because the throat is opened up and much less resistant to boolit movement, there is either a total elimination of leading or it is greatly reduced to the point that after a few hundred rounds are fired, what little leading is in the barrel wipes out really easily with minimal effort. It is also quite common to see as much as a 50% reduction in group sizes, and velocity spread is less as well.

Factory on the left, throated on the right:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/1f06c85f-3c7d-434b-9061-ca061af26de9_zps0aqi32iq.jpg.html)

Here is a Lone Wolf barrel for Glock, I think this is 10mm but you can see how the throat has longer freebore and the rifling has a 2 degree leade in. This one shoots very very good according to the owner who sent it to me for throating:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock19-640_zpsv5rzqop5.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock19-640_zpsv5rzqop5.jpg.html)

Glock 19 with polygonal rifling after throating:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/GlockPoly_zpsh8m24f3y.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/Glock%2019%20Polygonal/GlockPoly_zpsh8m24f3y.jpg.html)

Here is the same Kahr barrel in the earlier reply, these are the dummy loads that will pass the "plunk" test after throating, I think you can get an idea from these what the modified throat will permit to be chambered and fired through the gun. These are a collection that were sent to me by different customers, this is a fairly diverse sampling of what people are actually wanting to shoot, and wanting the gun to cycle with.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Kahr%20P45%20polygonal/DSC04944%20Custom_zpslhvxyabt.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Kahr%20P45%20polygonal/DSC04944%20Custom_zpslhvxyabt.jpg.html)

Without throating the barrel, you are pretty much stuck to what diameter boolit you can expect to feed reliably, and stuck to whatever COA will cycle reliably. The barrel is a tool. It is a machined guide that serves to hold the boolit in a fashion that will produce consistent repeatable results each time the gun is fired. The barrel, just like a cylilnder throat, needs to be machined, needs to be fitted to the boolit that it will fire, in a way that will deliver that boolit to the target accurately and consistently from shot to shot. This is basically what throating does, it prepares the barrel for a given size or style of boolit to produce accurate and repeatable results without leading.

[ioon44]

Interesting thread, I have been shooting Hi-Tek coated 185 gr SWC and 200 gr SWC cast bullets sized to .452" with a COL of 1.260" out of my PPQ 45 for about a year with out any problems. I also shoot Hi-Tek coated cast out of my 9 mm PPQ with the polygonal barrel.

I get 2" groups at 25 yards from a sand bag rest. So if I have my barrel throated my groups should be 1".


I agree that "Almost all of the modern auto pistols are only manufactured and tested with factory ammo, which in the case of the .45 ACP is usually .451" diameter jacketed bullets," and can be greatly helped with throating.

I have a .40 Glock Lone Wolf barrel that I am sure that throating would be an improvement.

One other thought the Walther polygonal barrel is a true polygonal where Glock is a different thing.

[ghh3rd]

Came across my old thread and read it again and thought I'd update. I've been shooting Lee 430 RN and 452460's sized to .452 - everyone who has tried my Walther, including me, has been surprised at how easy it is to shoot accurately.

[Ramjet-SS]

I think the Walther PPQ is one of the most accurate defensive handguns chambered for 45ACP. They just fit me well so I shoot them well. By the way Doug does excellent work.

[joebaja]

I get excellent results in mine with PC'd Lyman 452630s. It is a little bit pickier eater than my SAR k2 but it runs fine on a variety of RNs and really well on the 200gr SWCs

[ioon44]

After many thousand's of rounds my Walther PPQ .45 ACP is still shooting great with Hi-Tek coated cast bullets.

[FergusonTO35]

Sweet! I am going to send Doug some barrels this spring.

[GONRA]

GONRA's half *** comment - (not super sure about this - check it out guys)
Watchout for shootin' yer Home Made Cast Lead Bullets in the MIRROR SMOOTH polygonal bores.
Might see a long scratch from a bit of "sand" in yer El Cheapo lead source...

For me - decided to shot commercial jacketed bullets ONLY in these bores.

[onelight]

In the group I shoot with we have put thousands of hi-tech coated bullets through Walther , Glock and HK bores with no problems we all clean and check guns after each range trip.

[ioon44]

onelight, same here most every one I shoot with use Hi-Tek coated bullets with out any problems. We shoot IDPA, USPSA and Steel Challenge matches every month, this is many thousands of rounds shot per month.

[BigAlofPa.]

I run the hi-tec coated cast in my walthers. No leading issues.

[RobClarke]

Found this thread and sending my barrel to Doug this week. Only FMJ fired in the PPQ 45 so far. RC

[ioon44]

Found this thread and sending my barrel to Doug this week. Only FMJ fired in the PPQ 45 so far. RC

Would you care to share as to why you are sending it.

[marek313]

Everything Doug said +1 :goodpost:. Most guns dont have throats for lead. I had the same problem with Canik TP9 SFX and even though its not polygonal it wasnt shooting PCed cast right until Doug fixed it. I might have to do the same with my CZ 97BD but I have some more testing to do. Doug does great work at a very good price. Thanx again Doug for fixing my Canik :guntootsmiley:

[Laguna Freak]

I have a PPQ M2 40 S&W that has a few hundred jacketed rounds down the tube. Very accurate. No problems. I prefer my guns clean.