Range idiots and neighbors

[30Carbine]

So me and my best bud went out to test his new built ar rifle today. It was windy so we fiqure there was not going to be to many ppl out. so I took a pistol I was working on and casting for out for a test. my nearest neighbor was out there and few other guys that I know were there also. so no big deal most of them know that I roll my own. well the neighbor apparently didn't know cause when he came over to investigate (I am still laughing now) he literally deficated down both legs. when he saw me shooting cast boolits out of a S&W mp9 that was less than a week old.(no condoms through this one at all) by the way it likes the lee 358-105-swc. he went into the usual rant about lead and reloads on how they will blow the gun up and bs... he went ripping off the range real quick, he just through his stuff in the back seat of the truck no clearing or anything.. he came over a little bit ago yelling at me for lack of range safety and no respect for any one else for running lead and reloads. cause you know they blow up and destroy barrels.(still funny HAHAHAHAHA). he said he was going to call the sheriff on my for unsafe practices next time he sees me out there.

[Finster101]

You sir, have an idiot for a neighbor. My condolences.

[jcwit]

Sounds as if he really hit a tender nerve. Just chill out.

I wouldn't let it bother me. I've been shooting cast reloads since the 1960's.

[30Carbine]

Jcwit OH I know I just can't stop giggling on how stupid ppl are. I am not mad I thought you guys would get a kick out of this.

[Plate plinker]

Funny stuff to bad the fella is misinformed.

[bedbugbilly]

My hometown is missing their "village idiot" . . . . I will be more than happy to e-mai the village manner and let him know that he's been located so everyone can stop looking for him.

I have a S & W 9mm Shield and all it's been fed is a steady diet of lead . . . and it loves it! It wouldn't know what to do with "store bought" ammo . . . . LOL

[shoot-n-lead]

You may need to move...having a neighbor like that.

[smokeywolf]

His daddy probably told him all this horse hockey he's spouting. Gotta remember, idiots beget idiots.

[Wayne Smith]

If he really is a neighbor go over with a six pack and gently educate him.

[JSnover]

How did anyone survive before the invention of jacketed bullets?

[cainttype]

You can't "educate" an a$$-hat that knows too much already... That's a proven fact.
You may as well point at him and laugh everytime you see him. A$$-hats love that kind of attention.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

How did anyone survive before the invention of jacketed bullets?

Pretty much they didn't. Course they died of old age or marriage.
I've never met anyone with that attitude, yet.
CF

[dragon813gt]

I would have handed him my phone and tell him to call the Sheriff right then and there. I'm not for wasting law enforcement officer's time. But sometimes you have to help nature take it's course.

[Pumpkinheaver]

My reply to the neighbor is not something I can say here. But he would not like what I would have to say. He's obviously an idiot.

[runfiverun]

I think I run into ours today too.
it was a balmy 17-f and mostly sunny today so I figured a good time to head down to the range.
when I got there my neighbor was there and one of my shootin bud's was just leaving with his new S&W AR rifle.
something I never thought I'd see him own let alone shoot.
after a bit of razzing him we talked a bit about some loads to try and he left.
I went under the cover and set my stuff up and waited for the one guy left there to finish his string.
[he was shooting a nice heavy barreled HI-Wall in 40-70 and using a blow tube no-less]
after a while we got to talking a bit and I referred him to the site here for more information.
then I had the place to myself for a while and got some good shooting in, before a few more people showed up and then left again.
one of them was doing an oal test in his super nice custom 7-mag and we had a nice talk.
I forget the name of the rifle now but it was a quality piece with a built in muzzle brake that wasn't obnoxious to be near.
I held it and looked it over for a minute and it was a well balanced package.

finally the village idiot wanders in with a rifle an aluminum baseball bat and his 'G/F'? following along carrying a box of ammo.
okay a partial box of 300 WSM ammo, 3 brass cases and 2 nickel plated ones, but the bushnell the rifle wore was fairly new.
anyway I stop shooting for a minute so he can walk down to the 200 ish yd line and jam the bat down in the snow and walk back again.
through the snow mind you, snow almost waist deep,,, not 15 feet away in the walk path we had partially shoveled/ partially stomped down to the 300 yd line.
anyway he huffs and puffs his way back and sits down at a bench about halfway down the firing line.
and proceeds to shoot at the bat.
he now has my attention.
after a few shots he looks down at me and asks if I can hit the bat he stuck down there
I shrug and say probably since I have my 25-06 with me and some new varmint rounds I'm working on.
so he asks me to please shoot the bat for him [this is a nice 50-60 dollar Eastman BTW]
I get my 25-06 out of the truck and set down at the bench and punch a hole through it for him [expecting a little more damage from the 87 gr varmint bullets stroking along something over 2400 fps]
he asks me to do it again so I aim about an inch below the top and blow the plastic end out of it and make a tear down the side knocking it over.

he gets a big smile on his face and thanks me and heads down to get the bat.
so I gotta ask the G/F.
what's up with the bat?
I dunno but he had to bring something down.
he gets back and launches into a story about moving back home from Iowa?Indiana? and his buddy had to carry that bat everywhere so he wouldn't get beat up.
when he moved back here his buddy gave him the bat.
so I asked, so now that you have the bat what is he doing to not get beat up?
the look on his face was one that told the tale without a word.
uhh I dunno...

[labradigger1]

I bet his parents are stupid too. They really shouldn't breed.

[country gent]

You should hear them when the smoke starts flying and the Paper Patch confetti comes fluttering down in front of the firing line. Some will listen and understand what they are seeing with the explanation. One actually told me he would work with new technology until it had been proven thru use. The look on his face when I told him Paper Patched bullets in brass cases was new in 1870s or so. In all honesty if possible and informing teaching these people is much better.

[Mk42gunner]

You should hear them when the smoke starts flying and the Paper Patch confetti comes fluttering down in front of the firing line. Some will listen and understand what they are seeing with the explanation. One actually told me he would work with new technology until it had been proven thru use. The look on his face when I told him Paper Patched bullets in brass cases was new in 1870s or so. In all honesty if possible and informing teaching these people is much better.

You are right, but (there's always a but) most of these type people know better and have no desire to be confused with facts. They would rather believe hearsay from their coworker's uncle's brother-in-law's ex neighbor that actually saw a toy gun once.

Heck, my best friend will scrounge wheel weights for me to make snagging sinkers with; but he believes I need new, clean WW to make boolits from.

Robert

[flyingmonkey35]

Hey now that federal has PC bullets its now a proven technology.

[BrassMagnet]

Sounds as if he really hit a tender nerve. Just chill out.

I wouldn't let it bother me. I've been shooting cast reloads since the 1960's.

You've really been evil for that long?
I was casting back then, too, but I started casting around kindergarten. It was fun. I was still shooting those WC boolits in my mid-twenties.
What's your excuse? It was fun?

[BrassMagnet]

How did anyone survive before the invention of jacketed bullets?

Do you mean those mountain men and cowboys were evil, too?

[Hickory]

I'm glad I have my own private shooting range.

No idiots allowed.

[jcwit]

You've really been evil for that long?
I was casting back then, too, but I started casting around kindergarten. It was fun. I was still shooting those WC boolits in my mid-twenties.
What's your excuse? It was fun?

Actually do not remember "why". Likely it was to save money. Had to save cash to buy the Corvette for cash!

Oh BTW, Yes I've been casting for that long, & the lead/heavy metal counts still are way low.

[Artful]

I wonder if 30carbine's neighbor tried handloading himself and maybe blew up a gun or two.
What do you think??

[MaryB]

I was testing some hollow points in my PK-380 when a guy walked up. J-words(yeah yeah, I don't have any hollow point molds) that I use for my home defense loads. He asked what they were, I told him and he starts in on the rant that a prosecutor will nail you to a wall for using reloads rant. He went on for 5 minutes then I asked him to produce a case of anyone getting jailed for using a standard load in their pistol. I do not load to max, why beat up my wrists when the middle of the road loads are more accurate and I like plinking them at 25 yards. He stuttered for a bit, I offered him my phone to try and look it up on the internet... he finally wandered off after mumbling he heard it on the internet so it must be true...

[jcwit]

Good one Mary!

[BrassMagnet]

I was testing some hollow points in my PK-380 when a guy walked up. J-words(yeah yeah, I don't have any hollow point molds) that I use for my home defense loads. He asked what they were, I told him and he starts in on the rant that a prosecutor will nail you to a wall for using reloads rant. He went on for 5 minutes then I asked him to produce a case of anyone getting jailed for using a standard load in their pistol. I do not load to max, why beat up my wrists when the middle of the road loads are more accurate and I like plinking them at 25 yards. He stuttered for a bit, I offered him my phone to try and look it up on the internet... he finally wandered off after mumbling he heard it on the internet so it must be true...

I have heard the same many times. I have always believed it. Here in Colorado we have the "Make My Day Act" which gives you the benefit of the doubt in your home.
DukeInFlorida told me all of the LE he has talked to believe "dead is dead."
I wonder if it was pushed by Guns & Ammo to promote sales. Could be. I guess I'll ask my Prosecutor the next time I see him at a Republican luncheon. It would be good to know the legal standard in Colorado.

[starnbar]

No never saw a case involving reloaded ammo being an issue I was there for 25 years at hcso.

[30Carbine]

Well had to disconnect the house phone last night he kept calling and yelling at me. I called Fred the sheriff at home last night going down to file a complaint when he is there this morning. Fred is also going to the club and view the tapes of him being unsafe yesterday. we put up video cameras last year cause someone was out there shooting beer bottles all over the place. He is not a neighbor in the strictest sense I mean you would be hard pressed to hit his house with an -06 from my place. Looks like I am going to have to build my back yard range sooner that I thought I was going to.

[458mag]

I'm glad I have my own private shooting range.

No idiots allowed.These kind of folks force me to envoke my #1 rule in life. "Never argue with an idiot because they have the uncany abillity to pull you DOWN to their level where they have the clear advantage."

[jcwit]

Well had to disconnect the house phone last night he kept calling and yelling at me. I called Fred the sheriff at home last night going down to file a complaint when he is there this morning. Fred is also going to the club and view the tapes of him being unsafe yesterday. we put up video cameras last year cause someone was out there shooting beer bottles all over the place. He is not a neighbor in the strictest sense I mean you would be hard pressed to hit his house with an -06 from my place. Looks like I am going to have to build my back yard range sooner that I thought I was going to.

WOW, looks as tho he really is a piece of work!

Keep him out there, we need no more here in Indiana.

BTW, you live in some wonderful country, 40 years ago I used to go hunting out there. Some years around Sundance, and a couple of years around Moon, SD.

[Lloyd Smale]

tell them to give my local sheriff a call. He and his troppers use my cast loads for practice ammo.

[winchester85]

i like my private range!

[jcwit]

i like my private range!

Ya they have their place, but then too I like the comradery of a club range. Nothing like spending an afternoon in the shooters shack with a bunch of the guys.

[DerekP Houston]

odd, I've purchased lead bullets off the shelf and reman....same thing as cast boolit and reloads. I still get asked about the funny colors if I get a new cashier.

[white eagle]

You sir, have an idiot for a neighbor. My condolences.

I agree
let him call the sheriff and watch him laugh at dummy too [smilie=w:

[Clay M]

My neighbor is an old anti gun, sore head too. He claims to be a Christian, but also says he hates people. Says he is waiting for the big heart attack ,so he can go to heaven.
Pretty hilarious stuff.

[SSGOldfart]

i like my private range!Same here but I guess we are missing the show while staying home to shoot.

[country gent]

I had an enjoyable morning yesterday, Went to the club I belong to and went back to the 200 yd rifle range Got out of truck grabbed my stool and bag hooked edge of stool on my walker and bag with ammo and odds and ends in other hand and went up to the firing point I was going to use set things down went and sighned in. 2 guys there together and a 3rd on his own. They came over offered to help unload my gear. When they went down they came down and asked if they could put up some targets for me. Newer members but were curtious and freindly. One was having problems with an AR Gave him some pointers and things to try with position and technique. WHen they came back I uncased my CPA 40-65 and set it in the rage box rack. I "donated" 15 rounds of my match load I had brought to practice with so each could fire a 5 shot group. Was a fun morning and I made some new friends. Not all encounters are like the above. Most are similar to yesterdays but the others tend to stand out more

[lup]

I was testing some hollow points in my PK-380 when a guy walked up. J-words(yeah yeah, I don't have any hollow point molds) that I use for my home defense loads. He asked what they were, I told him and he starts in on the rant that a prosecutor will nail you to a wall for using reloads rant. He went on for 5 minutes then I asked him to produce a case of anyone getting jailed for using a standard load in their pistol. I do not load to max, why beat up my wrists when the middle of the road loads are more accurate and I like plinking them at 25 yards. He stuttered for a bit, I offered him my phone to try and look it up on the internet... he finally wandered off after mumbling he heard it on the internet so it must be true...
The only potentially valid argument I've heard against using handloaded ammo in your carry gun is that it would be difficult to duplicate reliably if you needed to prove ballistics in a shooting. There are thousands, if not millions of standard factory loadings that a forensics team could order and duplicate the scenario described. With handloaded how do you prove what loading was present? The odds of a trial hinging on this are so low as to be near zero. Never heard of a case but it wouldn't surprise me if one existed and has been quoted by Internet commandos as fact. Me, I put factory ammo in my carry gun and practice with a ton of reloads to keep the price down.

Tell your village idiot to tell you the case law. I bet he doesn't find any.

[JSnover]

Well had to disconnect the house phone last night he kept calling and yelling at me. I called Fred the sheriff at home last night going down to file a complaint when he is there this morning.
Good. Start the paper trail and 'keep yer powder dry' till it's over. Your neighbor isn't just an idiot, he's unbalanced.

[30Carbine]

So after a chit chat with fred this morning I was clued into y he is the way he is. I was told that his oldest son about some 25 years ago reloaded and something went wrong, he took a piece of the action to the forehead and killed him. So now I am the one who feels like an a$$ hat for yelling back at the old man (I didn't know). He is not home tonight so the next day or two I will go over there..

[runfiverun]

even with his loss he was out of bounds.

[dragon813gt]

even with his loss he was out of bounds.

Agree, if he doesn't like reloads then he should remove himself from the range. A lecture is not the way to go about it.

[M-Tecs]

So after a chit chat with fred this morning I was clued into y he is the way he is. I was told that his oldest son about some 25 years ago reloaded and something went wrong, he took a piece of the action to the forehead and killed him. So now I am the one who feels like an a$$ hat for yelling back at the old man (I didn't know). He is not home tonight so the next day or two I will go over there..

He was still out of line. Some people should not reload and some people should not have kids. Present performance does indicate past performance. Dad is an idiot today. What was he 25 years ago? What did he teach son about reloading and/or safety?

Back in the early 70's a classmate approached me to help getting started reloading for his brand new Remington 700 25/06. I told him what he need to get started and offered to help, however, his dad reloaded 222 Rem on a tong tool, dipping powder to fill case and tapping to settle the powder allow the bullet to seat. This was a common practice with this powder and bullet combination. Work surprisingly well. Dad stated he didn't need to waste money on useless stuff like a scale and reloading manual since you could reload the 25/06 same as he did with his 222. Son listened to dad and not me. Son was not hurt but the Rem 700 barely stayed together.

It would be interesting and educational to get more details of what happened and if it really happened as claimed. SD is small town USA and if it happened in the community area people with remember.

[OilyPablo]

Some people marginally have the brains to drive and they pass you daily on the road. Some people really shouldn't reload either.

[tommag]

So after a chit chat with fred this morning I was clued into y he is the way he is. I was told that his oldest son about some 25 years ago reloaded and something went wrong, he took a piece of the action to the forehead and killed him. So now I am the one who feels like an a$$ hat for yelling back at the old man (I didn't know). He is not home tonight so the next day or two I will go over there..

While he was out of linr, I know what you're feeling. We have all reacted to things without knowing the background story.
I'm sure you will be gentle. Good on you.

[Butchman205]

So after a chit chat with fred this morning I was clued into y he is the way he is. I was told that his oldest son about some 25 years ago reloaded and something went wrong, he took a piece of the action to the forehead and killed him. So now I am the one who feels like an a$$ hat for yelling back at the old man (I didn't know). He is not home tonight so the next day or two I will go over there..

I'm with you man...

No doubt the guy has a dislike of reloads whether legitimate or not. If something like that happened to my son, it'd screw me up for sure.

And I'm also in agreement that some folks shouldn't reload. Some people just don't have all of the necessary skills needed for putting a safe cartridge together.

Nowadays...we've learned that "attention deficit disorder" (ADD) or similar issues can make a person's mind totally wander off. Reloading is not a good idea for someone with ADD or similar issues. Period.

And I'm with you on going over and talking with the old guy. I'd have to try and make that right...even if he was the one out of line the other day.

[Mk42gunner]

My comments in this color.

So me and my best bud went out to test his new built ar rifle today. It was windy so we fiqure there was not going to be to many ppl out. so I took a pistol I was working on and casting for out for a test. my nearest neighbor was out there and few other guys that I know were there also. so no big deal most of them know that I roll my own.
No big deal so far...
well the neighbor apparently didn't know cause when he came over to investigate (I am still laughing now) he literally deficated down both legs.
Oopsie...
when he saw me shooting cast boolits out of a S&W mp9 that was less than a week old.(no condoms through this one at all) by the way it likes the lee 358-105-swc. he went into the usual rant about lead and reloads on how they will blow the gun up and bs...
We've all seen or heard of this, but still not totally over the line.
he went ripping off the range real quick, he just through his stuff in the back seat of the truck no clearing or anything..
This is getting there.
he came over a little bit ago yelling at me for lack of range safety and no respect for any one else for running lead and reloads. cause you know they blow up and destroy barrels.(still funny HAHAHAHAHA). he said he was going to call the sheriff on my for unsafe practices next time he sees me out there.
This is where he is completely out of line.


So after a chit chat with fred this morning I was clued into y he is the way he is. I was told that his oldest son about some 25 years ago reloaded and something went wrong, he took a piece of the action to the forehead and killed him. So now I am the one who feels like an a$$ hat for yelling back at the old man (I didn't know). He is not home tonight so the next day or two I will go over there..

Not your fault for not knowing; but it sounds to me like he has not come to terms with his son's accidental death yet, and has stuck on "reloads are bad, it is the reloads (inanimate object) fault for little Johnny's death. Nobody else can load safe ammunition, either."

Would he be doing the same stuff if his son had died in a car wreck?

If it was me, I would try to let it drop. Maybe he'll forget about bugging you in a day or two. If he keeps it up though, at least you have let the Sherriff know.

Robert

[M-Tecs]

At best Fred has 25 years of hate and at worst Fred has serious mental health issues. Either way you will not change him.

[waksupi]

The only potentially valid argument I've heard against using handloaded ammo in your carry gun is that it would be difficult to duplicate reliably if you needed to prove ballistics in a shooting. There are thousands, if not millions of standard factory loadings that a forensics team could order and duplicate the scenario described. With handloaded how do you prove what loading was present? The odds of a trial hinging on this are so low as to be near zero. Never heard of a case but it wouldn't surprise me if one existed and has been quoted by Internet commandos as fact. Me, I put factory ammo in my carry gun and practice with a ton of reloads to keep the price down.

Tell your village idiot to tell you the case law. I bet he doesn't find any.

This ain't CSI. I wouldn't worry about that scenario.

[MaryB]

I reload in boxes of 50 minimum(usually batches of 100 for the PK because it is a fun little pistol). So the partial box of reloads could be taken apart, powder compared to a sample of what I say is in them(and I DO keep a log!), weighed and compared to a reloading book to see the ballistics. Several rounds from the open box could be ran through testing if desired. I never let my stash for the PK drop below 50 rounds and can have as many as 300 or more ready to go if I got into a rhythm and cranked out a batch.

[Geezer in NH]

Don't get shot by visiting him that would be escalating your situation. He has mental problems that are not your responsibility. The continued harassing phone calls make him very unstable let the sheriff handle it and keep you and yours out of it.

[lup]

This ain't CSI. I wouldn't worry about that scenario.
I won't. It's the only valid argument I've heard against reloads. It in my opinion is in the realm of a TV or movie plot rather than realistic criminal investigation.

[BrassMagnet]

Don't get shot by visiting him that would be escalating your situation. He has mental problems that are not your responsibility. The continued harassing phone calls make him very unstable let the sheriff handle it and keep you and yours out of it.


I agree. There is a significant chance he is dangerous and sees you as the problem.

[w5pv]

I like stepping out of the side of my carport and start shooting,I respect my neighbors and if iknow they are working a night job i don't shoot until they are up even though they tell me it doesn't brother them.So far after being here for over 45 years I have had no problems with the LEO's or neighbors grumbling.

[flyingmonkey35]

As I speak from experience kabooms suck.

A bad reload. Gun malfunction. Or factory ammo. There just not fun .

And leave a lasting impression.

Ask anyone how has had a child injured or killed by a unsecured firearm.

The hate they carry for firearms last a lifetime

In this case. I would let him know you heard his story. And that you understand that there is history there.

But let him know you are a experienced Reloader. But understand that accident's do and can happen.

This is after all controlled explosion your outing next to your head / hands.

[gwpercle]

That old boy is eat-up with a bad case of the screaming stupids, unfortunately the pharmaceutical companies have failed to come out with a pill for that !
I guess he was educated from the school of U-Tube.
Sorry ....Gary

[JSnover]

There are thousands, if not millions of standard factory loadings that a forensics team could order and duplicate the scenario described. With handloaded how do you prove what loading was present?
You use or start with published load data, take notes as you develop your load, label your ammo boxes. Shouldn't be too tough for the Lab Coats to duplicate your work.

[lup]

You use or start with published load data, take notes as you develop your load, label your ammo boxes. Shouldn't be too tough for the Lab Coats to duplicate your work.
They don't want to and won't. In the real world overtime for the forensics team is cost prohibitive.

[leeggen]

I know you want to go to the guy and talk.But it is probably best to just leave the guy alone. You don't know how he will react to seeing you on the porch. He has already went to the police about you, take heed and leave alone for your own safety. You just don't know how someone like that will react, be safe and just say a prayer for him.
CD

[Rick Hodges]

They don't want to and won't. In the real world overtime for the forensics team is cost prohibitive.

Nor will they fire your reloads for safety's sake. They have no idea what you put in there....perhaps a case full of bullseye as a surprise?

The fact is: I spent 31 yrs. in law enforcement and reloaded ammunition never came up. The only time I have ever heard of it is on the internet where "someone's friend's cousin heard that" so it must be true.

I agree with the above...unless the guy continues let it lay. Don't push the issue by going to his home. He doesn't know you mean well, and he sounds unbalanced.

[Lonegun1894]

I would leave him alone. He is the one who was out of line. If he had approached you calmly, and explained his story and concern, and let you explain your side also, then this would be a completely different matter. As it is, all he did was show you a hint of his stupidity and instability. You are not responsible for what happened to his son, but rather his son is responsible for his own mishap. I know that sounds callous, but that is the truth, weather he likes it or not.

He reminds me of a now ex friend who insisted that I teach him to reload years ago for his 7mm STW because factory ammo is just too expensive. Well, he loaded a couple hundred rounds with me basically holding his hand to make sure he had it right. Those loads shot into honest half inch groups out of his rifle at 100yds, and that was without load development, just a starting load out of the manual. Well, he calls me up a month later to come over and look at what he got done over the weekend. I get there, and he has 500 rounds (per his count) of 7mm STW loaded and ready to go shooting. I look at his bench, and he has a pound of Red Dot, and 2 more laying in his trash can. I ask him what else he has been loading, and he says just for his 7mm STW, and is proud of himself because he found the Red Dot on sale cheaper than the powder we had used previously, and besides, "powder is powder". Well, I was hoping he was just messing with my head and would come clean anytime now, so ask him how much of the Red Dot he used. He grabs a round out of the bucket, holds it up next to his ear, shakes it, and tells me it sounds right, so he's going to shoot it. He didn't measure the powder, he just kept putting in powder and then seating a bullet til it "sounded right". I told him to disassemble the loads, or dispose of them safely, but whatever he did, do NOT fire them or let anyone else fire them.

I also haven't been shooting or hunting with him since, due to his refusal to listen when he's told what the consequences most likely would have been. Actually, I no longer have any contact with him other than the occasional phone call, and even those are very few and far between.

[JSnover]

"They don't want to and won't. In the real world overtime for the forensics team is cost prohibitive."

"Nor will they fire your reloads for safety's sake. They have no idea what you put in there....perhaps a case full of bullseye as a surprise?

The fact is: I spent 31 yrs. in law enforcement and reloaded ammunition never came up. The only time I have ever heard of it is on the internet where "someone's friend's cousin heard that" so it must be true."

All the proof I need that reloads aren't relevant. If it mattered, they'd do it.

[Geezer in NH]

The reload **** was started by a gun writer for G&A sorry to say he is from NH about 30&+ years ago.

He is not liked by many in NH law enforcement.

[JSnover]

Yeah, he's been cussed and discussed here a few times already. I'm not interested in whipping that dead horse any further.

[Minerat]

I have heard the same many times. I have always believed it. Here in Colorado we have the "Make My Day Act" which gives you the benefit of the doubt in your home.
DukeInFlorida told me all of the LE he has talked to believe "dead is dead."
I wonder if it was pushed by Guns & Ammo to promote sales. Could be. I guess I'll ask my Prosecutor the next time I see him at a Republican luncheon. It would be good to know the legal standard in Colorado.
Hey Brass I'd be interested in what you find out too.