Anyone have experience using Lee Liquid Alox with black

[Jackpine]

Hello the Fire,

I do a fair amount of long range shooting with 38/55 and 45/70 loading cast bullets smokeless powder. I use primarily Lee Liquid Alox, White Xlox and 45-45-10 lubes with good success. I want to shoot in an annual competition that requires the use of black powder. I have some Swiss powder and would like to use my same bullets. I have done some searching and prowled several forums and found several statements that it won't work well, but all have been from the standpoint that you need to use only whatever the posters favorite lube was, and not from actual experience with LLA.

Does anyone have any actual experience with these lubes and actual black powder.

Thanks,

Jackpine

[CanoeRoller]

Alox is not a very good choice for BP, while there is a fair amount of discussion about BP lubes, the one thing that is not debated much is that Petroleum based lubes are not as effective non petroleum based lubes. BP lubes need to lube not just the boolit, but keep the fouling soft too. If you do a quick search on BP lubes, you can find several good commercially made ones, or if you like, you can make your own quite easily.

Oh - to answer your question, yes I have tried Alox with BP. It does not work well.

[Hickok]

:goodpost: I totally agree with CanoeRoller, don't use the liquid alox with BP.

If you want to make a BP lube quick and easy, try beeswax and Crisco mixed about 50/50. If to thin, add more beeswax, if too thick, add more Crisco. There are many easy and good formulas for making BP lube.

RandyRat, a vendor here has pure beeswax for sale.

If you have some Swiss powder, you have some of the best BP powder made. When you get shooting with the BP guys, check and see what they are using for loob.

I have some BP lube called Len's lube that works really good for me with 58 cal. minie ball loads.

[BrentD]

I'm going to disagree although I have not tried it - yet.

I see no reason LLA won't work - so long as you wipe between shots. If you do not do that, then the mantra on the internet is probably right. But wipe between shots, and it should work just fine.

This is on my list to try sometime soon.

[Don McDowell]

Lee's liquid alox turns into a tar like coating in the barrel when mixed with bp fouling.
Plenty of guality bullet lubes around that work with smokeless and black and are much better than LLA when used with black.

[rfd]

i'm quite happy with the results of my gato feo dip lube ... however, i could be wrong, but for me LLA i gonna probably be too hard and not enuf of it to get the job done. bp grease groove bullets need a lube that's soft, plentiful (for the more and deeper/wider bullet grease grooves) that will readily combine/soften up bp residue for easy fouling control via blow tube or patched jag/brush. would be interesting to hear if LLA works well ....

[nagantguy]

I've had dismal results with Alox and black powder, same problems as those above.

[Chill Wills]

One of the accuracy problems using the non-groove filling lube (LLA) is the hydraulic effect the lube has. When the big red light comes on behind the bullet, the lube grooves tend to close up if not filled with even poor lube. This movement of bullet lead does nothing for balance nor Bc and can really wreck an otherwise accurate powder/bullet load.

[Lead pot]

Harlan Sage has some lube that works very good that is a mix of Alox. I won some at a drawing and used it.
Lee's liquid Alox I tried on knurled bullets with black powder loads it was OK but that is all I can say, but you have to wipe between shots.

I made a mix with liquid Alox and wax and it took for ever to get the bore clean. The rest went in the garbage can.

[Chill Wills]

Yes Kurt, Long time BPCR silhouette rifleman here in Colorado used to make his own lube that worked well and he Blow Tubed everything - his lube was Alox based - and looked it. Had that brown color to it. He shot fine scores, even knocking off master scores from time to time.
But, his lube filled the grooves and I think that is very important.

[country gent]

Another issue is the lube grooves lube tend to help seal the bore between bullet and bore surfaces. GAssing blowing by the bullet can cause leading. I have not tried the lee tumble lube alox with true black powder. Some things to keep in mind with bullet lubes and black powder lubes in general. 1) the lube is also helping to control the fouling from the powder, keep it soft and moist. 2)Lubes do lubricate the bullet and alot can handle this task alone. 3) while alot of lubes will work in the shorter barrels ( handgun length and modern rifle seldom over 24") These traditional reproductions and originals have barrels 30"-34" meaning another 10" of barrel that needs "help". Big bullets, heavy fouling, and long barrels Im just not sure there will be enough tumble lube alone to handle the task asked of it. A simple easy to make lube that is pretty effect is Emmerts improved. 50% Beeswax, 40% crisco unsalted shortening, 10% canola or olive oil. An good additive to this is to cut oil to 5% and add 5% anhydrous lanolin. This lube is soft enough you can warm it a little on thumb and finger and hand lube bullets grooves. Mixed a little thicker and it pan lubes good also. You do need a cake cutter though. Spg is a good all around comercial lube. Lube may also depend on weather conditions as well, Hot Dry conditions ask more of the lube than damp humid conditions do as far as keeping fouling soft. Another thing is a lube star should be forming visibly in 4-5 rounds fired.

[bedbugbilly]

The purpose of BP lube is to keep the fouling soft. Yes, you can not use it and wipe between shots but as someone who has shot BP for over 50 years, it's a whole lot easier to wipe and keep a bore clean if the fouling is soft rather than hard. YMMV

[Lead pot]

Michael.

Over the years I made a bunch of different concoctions of bullet lubes with about every additive you can think about some worked and some did not and they all ended up dumped into a 5 gallon bucket and pushed under the bench :-) a couple years ago I pulled that bucket from under the bench to add another coffee pot full of lube to that bucket. That bucket was about 7" from being full. Then the light bulb turned on, I wonder, :-) well I got the sawzall out and cut that bucket in halve so I could get that big block of lube out and I put it in a 25 quart SST stock pot and heated it up and mixed all that stuff into a single mix and filled bread loaf pans and made blocks of this mix and stacked it in a old fridge I keep my welding rods in and never went back to try what I had just mixed up. I needed some weld rod and when I saw all those lube blocks I thought well I will give the cowboy shooters at our range a couple blocks for first second and third place finish. Well I don't shoot the wannabe cowboy matches but I watch them having fun :-)
After a few matches have passed I started to get requests for more of this lube so I tried it myself and I must say it is darn good stuff, but I cant tell you what is in it. I call it Heinz 57 :lol:

The lube I use mostly I think is pretty close to Dan's. All the hints he left behind with components when he started to make it and later clammed up when he sold it. He always used to say you can eat it and smear it on your lips :lol: well you can do this with mine too :-) and it keeps your fingers from cracking and bleeding in the winter and it works in the rifle.

Kurt

[35 Whelen]

I recently began shooting BP here at the house in a 1866 Uberti 44-40 with a 24" barrel. The bullet is from an NOE mould and has a large lube groove. The only soft lube I had was some of Randy Rat's TAC 1. I don't know the ingredients but I can definitely smell beeswax. Anyhow, I found I can fire 20 rounds loaded with Swiss 3Fg without loss of accuracy even out to 200 yds. After 20 rounds, two dry patches restore the bore to very shiny although it's certainly not squeaky clean. I ordered some SPG, but for now I'll continue with the TAC 1.

35W

[curator]

I have had reasonable success using a "double-dip" of 45-45-10 on .410-385 cast from 40 to 1 in my Browning high wall .40-65. The powder charge is 3/55 duplex SR4759/OE 1.5Fg and a 1/8 card wad. Accuracy is as good as filled grease grooves and no leading. Duplexing seems to be the "trick" as loads without the SR4759 kicker do not shoot near as well.

[Jackpine]

Thanks to all who replied, especially those who had actual experience. I should have added that this is a match is 10 shots, with time as a tie breaker, so wiping between shots is probably not a good option. As much as I would like to try the Alox, I may just go with pan lubing and hope for the best.

Thanks,

Jackpine

[Lead pot]

Jackpine a proper bullet design and a descent lube would be your friend for a timed shooting match.

Give John a call he has a good lube that will let you shoot your timed match. http://www.bigskycastbullets.com/

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Not all Alox lubes are created equal. Sagebrush Alox is a proven blackpowder lube. Lee tumble lube is ok with smokeless but sucks big time with black.

[Pardini]

How about alox and beeswax? A friend used to make the NRA lube in sticks for a Star sizer, no heat needed. I think it was 50/50. Will this stuff make a mess in the bore?

I'm getting ready to give BP a go in a .40-65 Browning, I bought some DGL and was surprised to find its a hard lube.

[Walkingwolf]

A beeswax disk under the bullet works fine. I normally use homemade lube consisting of beeswax, tallow, and ivory soap shavings which I dip wads into and let cool.

[Lead pot]

I'm going to spill the beans about what I have found shooting these powder rifles. My competition days on the line are close to an end so I can forget to close the gate and let the cattle out.
What I found shooting lead is GG bullets is getting a bullet with shallow but wide grooves. The wide shallow grooves expose more lube to the bore and you don't need those deep grooves when only maybe five thousands deep lube ever gets used. Most grooves are .004" deep and from what I can measure from recovered bullets the bullet that starts at groove diameter does not upset hardly any so maybe only .005" ever comes in contact with the bore. I also measured spun off lube from bullets I shot and the lube is still as deep as the grooves minus the depth of the lands where they cut the lube. All deep grooves do is slow the bullet from drag. shallow wide grooves do two things. It delivers more lube to the bore and reduces setback except for the nose that is unsupported with to soft an alloy.
Here are GG bullets I use when I shoot them. They have lube from the base clear up on the nose where the lands make contact. You cant buy bullets like I use, you have to make them.
Those GG "money" are covered the whole portion of lead that makes contact with the bore and when that bullet leaves the bore it is smooth except very small holes.
These bullets with out grooves hold more lube then a normal GG used. with a lot less drag when they leave the muzzle. And I have yet to find one that has lube in those little diamonds, it all spins off.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_323_zps1223009e.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/323_zps1223009e.jpg.html)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_2594_zpsjghq1exe.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_2594_zpsjghq1exe.jpg.html)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_323_zps1223009e.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/323_zps1223009e.jpg.html)

As far as lube goes. There are better carriers then B wax now days. B wax was the only thing going in the past except Tallow.
I have a lube that is very good but the components are expensive and mixing them is time involved making it. When I run out of it I wont make any more because just plain inexpensive Soy wax and Vaseline thinned with peanut oil works as well as most lube you buy over the counter.
I like my lube as soft. When I squeeze it between my thumb and finger it just about turns to liquid and I use it when it's hot, but you must have a wad stack that will hole it from migrating.
People make this black powder stuff to complicated. Keep it simple and spend your time prepping your brass and cast a good bullet and proper loading procedures.
By the way, my lubes are made with a some petroleum stuff in it. [smilie=l:

[rfd]

How about alox and beeswax? A friend used to make the NRA lube in sticks for a Star sizer, no heat needed. I think it was 50/50. Will this stuff make a mess in the bore?

I'm getting ready to give BP a go in a .40-65 Browning, I bought some DGL and was surprised to find its a hard lube.

i've found (thanx to nobade) that the absolute easiest and most effective home brew lube for black powder bullets is "gato feo" (ugly cat). the ingredients are easy to find, very easy to mix and the results for dipping or panning are just great. i would expect the same for use in lubesizers. been using this stuff for at least the last few years with dip lubing and it works well for both black powder rifle bullets but also handgun smokeless bullets.

by weight, take one pound of mutton tallow (dixie gun works), one pound of candle/canning paraffin wax (gulf), and a half pound of pure beeswax (lots of vendors online), melt all three in a "double boiler" - put a large pot of water on the stove, put all the ingredients in another pot or jar or can that will fit into the pot of water, heat the water. when fully liquid, yer done. you can leave the lube in its large container and remelt as need be - i pour the lube into either papered muffin tins, or a teflon cake mould(s). two and half pounds of this lube will last a VERY LONG time, perhaps many years at the least. i haven't even put a dent in my cache of gato feo lube and i dip lube weekly.

with long bullets, i just grab them by their nose and dip into the lube up just past the grease grooves, set aside to harden. with shorter bullets i use a wire frame to hold the bullet for dipping. almost immediately, the lube bullets are either cookie cut out with an expanded brass case or shoved into a lee sizer. depending on the bullet and firearm, i may presize before dipping or never size at all.

for dipping, i double boiler melt some gato feo in a small tuna or cat food can. any excess lube goes back into the lube pot, no waste.

for more info on bullet casting/lubing, with more images of dip lubing click this link - http://www.buffalorifles.org/bpcr.html#bullets

http://i.imgur.com/XnPsqse.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tngVqPh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mFjY8fH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CKURqLL.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/k6rsL3p.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dqpaC9u.jpg

[BRUCE MOULDS]

kurt,
the knurled part of the bullet in front of the front groove is very important.
this part of the bullet can bump into the rifling, and guess what?
in a conventional gg bullet it is unlubed.
as you say, all the bullet in contact with barrel innards is lubed, thus negating the problem.
when more people catch onto this, knurled bullets will surely become more popular.
this problem is not as critical for second shot on when blowtubing, as the bore in then lubed, but first shot blowtubing and all shots wiping your bullet is way superior.
keep safe,
bruce.

[William Yanda]

Lee's liquid alox turns into a tar like coating in the barrel when mixed with bp fouling.
Plenty of guality bullet lubes around that work with smokeless and black and are much better than LLA when used with black.

Hear, here!

You are welcome to try, but insanity is defined as trying the same thing and expecting different results.

[45bpcr]

I have tried it.
I haven't used straight alox but have used BLL as a coating prior to lubing the bullets with conventional BP lube.
Here are some targets shot with three different powders and two different alloys.
Powders were Swiss 3F, Goex "red can" 3F and Goex OE 1 1/2F
All bullets were tumble lubed with BLL then lubed using my lubrisizer and one of Mathews lubes.
I wipe between shots.
I did try one other load in my 40-65 that day. It was a full case of Swiss 3F compressed enough to seat the 420 grain Brooks Turkey Killer bullet with three grease groves exposed. The bullet was cast with #2 alloy and the only lube I used was BLL. Fifteen shots went into 7 inches at 300 meters. You could feel the hard fouling when wiping on that load though. I'd have to check my notes but want to say it was 74 grains drop tubed into re-formed Starline brass.

Craig

163698

163699163700

[Lead pot]

Bruce.

I been looking for a place that would make me a round dimpled knurling wheel so I can put round dimples on the bullets like a golf ball has. :bigsmyl2: They make the ball perform better just think what it would do to a bullet :lovebooli
There was a topic of this on the old Shooters forum once and it started a P.....g match :cbpour:

[BrentD]

Craig,
Thanks for your post! That's the information I have been looking for because I haven't been able to get out and try myself. You are finding what I sort of suspected might be the case. I think I'll revisit this later this summer. I believe it might be a really effective method of coating bullets. Most who recite the yada yada yada about LLA and blackpowder haven't actually done what you have. I finally have a bullet that is suitable for this experiment so I'll be trying it later this spring.

Kurt, for a few years back in the 90s the dimpling thing was all the rage with roundball shooters too. But after awhile, the fad wore off, though many, at the time, claimed it was the cat's meow. Now, pretty much no one does it. I dont think you will find it any better than your diamond knurling.

Keep in mind that golf balls are barely spinning relative to what our bullets do, and their spin is never orthogonal to the direction of flight as it is with bullets. I think this matters quite a lot.

Have you ever compared BCs for a grease groove w/ and w/o knurling? I wonder if would add much drag after traveling down the bore?

Brent

[Lead pot]

Brent this dimpled projectiles dates back to before the civil war days from what I have found on that dimpled subject. They also tried it in artillery projectiles.

Brent I have never checked the BC on the knurled, but I have done a lot of studies with recovered bullets and what I have seen is that when fired a lot of the diamonds are ironed out by the land cuts and the once that remain on the shank are still there but smooth. The lube sort of holds the pattern from getting completely ironed out. Here are a couple that did not fair to well, They hit gravel in the late winter pile I shot them in but it will give you an idea what they look like. These where pretty hard and undersized slightly from groove diameter .456 if I remember right. but they engraved and didn't strip even at that. I don't shoot GG to often so I haven't really done to much range time and shooting them over two chronographs to check the 200 yard BC.
I did take 100 to the Q one year and shot the 600 yard comparing them with GG and PP. The PP and the knurled where from the same mould and casting session for the test. For elevation drop and accuracy and they proved out on equal bases with the PP. They held elevation better then the greasers.
They perform better at .460" diameter then a couple thousands under.
I also like to use them for some of the undersized PP bullets adding a couple thousands to the diameter of the bullet using a very light knurl.
Here are a couple I have on the bucket they don't look the best but I have better on the back up.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_2125_zpscc1cafe3.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_2125_zpscc1cafe3.jpg.html)

[BrentD]

Yes, it is an old idea that comes up but fades away. That's why I don't think it is worth it, but heck, a guy has to chase these things every so often. I've got my own ideas that were probably rejected multiple times, but I've gotta go there.

I used to measure BCs at 200 but that became too much trouble (and $$) so I just do it with one chronograph at 100 yds.

Someday I'm going try that knurling thing. It has been around a long time, but so few people have tried it. I wonder if the muzzleloading guys do it? I'll have to ask around next week at Oak Ridge.

[Don McDowell]

Back to the alox thing. Again not all alox lubes are created equal.
From actual experience shooting the stuff. Lee's liquid alox works fine for smokeless but leaves a pretty junky tar like coating in the bore when used with straight blackpowder loads, and the long defunct Elephant powder and LLA would leave smokey looking spider webs in the bore that take a bajillion patches to get out.
The old NRA and Lyman Ideal alox and beeswax lube formula while not as bad as the LLA still not a particularly good choice.
What ever combination that Sagebrush uses in the Sagebrush Alox lube works alright as far as the fouling it is not much different than SPG etc, but it tended to leave more traces of lead in the bore than other lubes in my rifles.

[45bpcr]

I suppose I should've mentioned that - BLL - is not quite the same as - LLA. It's a mixture of johnsons or one step liquid floor wax and LLA.
Most mix it 50/50 and I use that with smokeless loads. The batch I used on those bullets, prior to conventional lubing was mixed 60/40 with the 40% being LLA. I shot 16 different loads that day, those were the best 3 groups. I did shoot all the loads over my Chrony.
Velocities for the 68 grains of Swiss 3F were
1269
1252
1289
1295
1293
Velocities for the 66 grains of Goex OE 1 1/2 were
1243
1261
1239
1236
1252
Velocities for the 62 grain Goex 3f Red Can were.
1272
ERR
1185
1229
ERR

Sometimes I don't trust that Chrony.

Craig

[Lead pot]

I had several bottles of the Lee LLA they sent with dies. I tried it in lube mixes and I also thought it would be just the thing for the knurled bullets. It worked ok in the pistol bullets using smokeless but with a black powder load it's not the thing I will use again.
I have found nothing that works as well as dry motor mica powder on my knurled bullets, pistol or rifle.
White graphite or I had some good results using boron nitrate spray on a lube pad rolling the knurled bullets then dusting the bullets with motor mica but you need to wipe between shots fired with black powder. I have had good results coating the patched bullets or knurled shooting them with out a lube wad under the bullets. But I need to do more down range work with this. Also I only been shooting these coated bullets in a rifle that has a bad switch barrel with it to see what the effects are shooting these coated bullets. But they sure hold the ES down even in a deep grooved bad barrel.

[BrentD]

At some point this spring, I'll try LLA with a paper patched bullet - sans the paper. I think it could work just like an Eley .22 bullet. So long as one wipes between shots, I do not see that blackpowder is going to factor into the equation.

Kurt, where does one get dry motor mica powder, and what exactly is it? I've heard of it, but know nothing more about and have never seen it so far as I know.

Brent

[Lead pot]

The stuff I got was from Midway USA. Hornady uses it on their dry bullets or you can get it on Amazon too.

[Don McDowell]

Oddly enough the coated bullets sold by Big Sky Components work pretty well in my Marlin 38wcf loaded with Eynsford 2f.
If I were going to try a "bare" bullet in place of a patched or grooved bullet I would look at a slick something just barely over bore diameter and coated with what ever it is John is using on his bullets.
On patched bullets I've found nothing better to apply to the patches than jojoba oil.

[Pardini]

I ordered mutton tallow and will mix up some Gato Feo. I'll have to find some other use for 2 dozen or so sticks of Alox and beeswax. Kind of like the smell of that stuff when it burns, but it's pretty Smokey. I don't like cleaning anyway, so no sense in making the job anymore laborious.

[Knarley]

When I was messing with the LEE REAL boolit for my muzzle loader, LEE said that their Alox was the way to go. I have been going to try the Alox, let harden then SPG pan lube to see what happens.

Hey, Jackpine, whereya gonna be shootin'????

Knarley

[Good Cheer]

Went searching through threads looking for info on long tumble lube design rifle boolits.
What experiments have you fellas had success with over the last few years?

Something about like this one increased in diameter to suit a 9.3x74R might be nice.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-280S
'Course I'd also have to paper patch it for the .375x45-70. :)

[Brimstone]

One of the accuracy problems using the non-groove filling lube (LLA) is the hydraulic effect the lube has. When the big red light comes on behind the bullet, the lube grooves tend to close up if not filled with even poor lube. This movement of bullet lead does nothing for balance nor Bc and can really wreck an otherwise accurate powder/bullet load.

This. I rarely hear anyone mention the compression and hydraulic effect on the grooves and grease.

The grease doesn't just sit there, it needs to flow. It needs to flow into the minute gap in the joint of the barrel and bullet, as it is never truly gas tight, the grease plugs this gap acting as a gas check. The carbon mixed with the grease is also prevented from caking up on the bore.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

I'm going to disagree although I have not tried it - yet.

I see no reason LLA won't work - so long as you wipe between shots. If you do not do that, then the mantra on the internet is probably right. But wipe between shots, and it should work just fine.

This is on my list to try sometime soon.

You would need to wipe between shots with mineral spirits or kerosene
Heat + carbon + petroleum = asphalt This is what will be happening with every shot.

[BLAHUT]

I have use Lee Liquid Alox in my 50 inline, worked good, no foiling, no leading, I was using blackhorn209 though.

[GregLaROCHE]

Thé only to know for sure what your gun likes, is to try shooting some and see what your results are. Hopefully, before the competition.