45 ACP small pistol primers OK?

[John Hill]

I already have 5,000 spp for my .38 sp and want to get started in 45acp. I know that some brands of brass come in spp and most in lpp. If i buy a bunch of sorted spp should they perform as well as lpp brass?

[44man]

Yes, they are actually better. My friend bought Speer brass from oncefiredbrass.com.

[StuBach]

To my understanding the SPP are for the lead free rounds made by federal and Winchester due to different powders used and the LPP producing too much pressure with that particular bullet.

That being said I have loaded the few SPP cases I had a few times with OK results but hate the idea of mixed brass and the LPP versions are much more prevalent. My guess is for starting out you'll be fine but if you get serious you'll want to switch to LPP just for availability of brass reasons.

[Ed_Shot]

Back during the not-so-long-ago great primer shortage I did a personal evaluation of using both SPP brass and LPP brass with identical loads in 45 ACP and I found virtually no difference in performance or in chrony data. It is a PITA to have to sort 45 ACP brass by primer size.

[nagantguy]

I've seen and been told that the spread works every bit as good as large pp ,I have tons of lpp, any small ppm that get mixed in only jam up my press, I used to pay my daughter to sort them, with gloves of course, and it was fun for her, for a while now she hates it worse than I do, some day I may be forced to.switch, I've read most .45 will be small pp in the near future.

[ioon44]

I have also tested identical loads in.45 ACP using SPP brass and LPP brass and found no difference in performance or chrony data.

Locally you can buy SPP brass for about half the cost of LPP brass.

I had the best results using WSPM primers and found the SPP brass easier to seat the primers.

[w5pv]

I use the small primers to shoot in my revolver,that way I can keep them seprated from the large primers.

[Mk42gunner]

I did a bit of research (very little actually) on small versus large primers in the .45 ACP a few years ago. Comparing useable case capacity in one of Lee's manuals, the .45ACP and .357 Magnum were virtually the same.

My conclusion was that if a small primer will light slow burning powder in the .357, there is no reason it won't light any sane charge in a .45.

I wouldn't be surprised to find the reason we didn't switch to small primers in the 1930's, like was done with the .38 Special was the billions of rounds already sitting in U.S. military magazines. That and the fact that some 1911's can strike the primer pretty far from center and still work with large primers.

Bottom line, I don't think it matters as long as you keep them sorted for loading.

Robert

[John Hill]

Thanks to all for the info I needed.
John

[Bonz]

According to the experts, you lose some velocity using small primer brass

http://www.starlinebrass.com/articles/Small-Primer-vs-Large-Primer/

I use 45acp small primer brass for all my homemade carry ammo because it appears to have a stronger web, or at least it feels like that when I run them thru my CasePro roll sizer or Lee BulgeBuster die

[bangerjim]

Just decide which you want to use and stick to it! Sorting cases by primer size a totaly PITA. I went with LPP's so all my 45's will be the same (45ACP & 45LC).

I doubt you will ever notice the difference in the 45ACP and the inherent inaccuracies in a semi-automatic short barrel hand gun.

banger

[TenTea]

Having one supply of primers for 38 and 45 is a wise move and no problem with the smalls in 45...

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, they are actually better. My friend bought Speer brass from oncefiredbrass.com.te

That can be debated. I don't think much of a difference could be detectable with most powders used for that cartridge, and the extra brass isn't quite where it would be most beneficial to anyone using high pressure loads in the 1911. But I think this is about the least likely of cartridges for the change to SP to do any harm.

[Outpost75]

Small pistol MAGNUM primers give about the same velocity as large pistol STANDARD primers.

Depending upon brand of primer and type of powder and bullet used a standard small primer has about a 20-40 fps velocity drop, compared to a large primer of the same brand, which is not important for practical purposes.

In target wadcutter ammo with H&G 68 bullet and Bullseye powder I get better accuracy with the small primer. If hitting a velocity benchmark is important to you, adjust the charge +0.2 grain to compensate for the small primer when loading Bullseye, or substitute a Magnum small pistol primer of the same brand.

[dudel]

Like 44 says, better. I switched all my 45ACP over to SP years ago. Saved me from having to switch primer systems, and during the shortage it meant I only had one size pistol primer to stock up on. Years ago, there was an article written by Lane Pierce (may have been Layne Simpson), about 45ACP SP brass. He found more accuracy. My tests showed that for the same powder and projectile, I got a slight increase in speed, a big reduction in ES (down to single digits) and lower SD. They were also more accurate for me. I loaded several mags with virtually the same load (only difference being primer size). For a long afternoon, I would take a shot and chase down the brass. The shots closest to the paster were favored the SP cases. When I started with 45GAP, I was pleased to see that it uses SP as well.

Story I heard, was that back in 1911, the powders of that age needed a large primer for consistent ignition in all weather extremes. With today's powder, the LP isn't needed. I also get a kick out of the range rats that grab my 45ACP brass. Serves them right if it jams their primers! I got my batch of 45ACP SP from an outfit in Fla. LeoBrass. Good guys to deal with.

[scottfire1957]

Bingo.

Edit: meant to quote banger. Pick a primer size and go.

[John Hill]

Well, I took the combined advice and last night bought 1,000 45ACP brass already sorted to be all SPP (already de-primed and polished) off of Gun Broker for $40 plus $12.85 shipping. At 5.2 cents per round, it was half of what everyone gets for LPP and I didn't have to spend the money for LPPs and the hazmat to ship.
Thanks for the info.
John

[44man]

te

That can be debated. I don't think much of a difference could be detectable with most powders used for that cartridge, and the extra brass isn't quite where it would be most beneficial to anyone using high pressure loads in the 1911. But I think this is about the least likely of cartridges for the change to SP to do any harm.
I ran into trouble with accuracy in a new ACP S&W revolver my friend bought. No load at all shot good at 25. I sat in the basement staring at the brass, told him "Too much primer", it is forcing the boolit out early. I made a bunch of little bushings to use SP and accuracy came right in. He had his 1911 with him, very accurate pistol I built for him that does 1/2" or less at 30 yards. It shot better too, not much but there was a difference so he bought 1000 SP cases.
Work with the revolver was where we changed.
You might not see a difference with a pistol and you need an exceptional one to start with.

[jonp]

Yes, they work fine. As others during the last shortage I thought of spp 45acp to consolidate by primers into as few as possible of one type and also to experiment to broaden what would work for me. I found the spp worked fine but did not notice any difference in accuracy at least in my guns.

[bottomline]

That SP .45 acp brass is a pain in my butt with a few that got passed me in the bin. Now any time I pick up range brass it goes into a separate bag to be sorted though before going into the cleanup bin.

[Big Boomer]

I came by a few SPP .45 ACP cases and had trouble at first identifying what my eyes were trying to tell me. I de-prime by hand all my .45 ACP cases prior to cleaning them. Once it dawned on me that I was looking at SPP cases, I wondered why they were being made. I dug into it and learned a little. Anyway, I decided to try them in a couple of .45s I have using the old standard load of 4.5 to 4.8 gr. of Bullseye. My old Chas Daly seemed to like them and so did my Dan Wesson PointeMan II. Point of impact changed ever so slightly but not enough to matter. A fellow who has a chronograph told me that the SPP produces slightly lower velocity but that is the only difference he has noticed. Big Boomer

[lightload]

What year did the small primer .45 acp brass originate?

[Big Boomer]

I was waiting for someone who knew for sure to chime in here but no one has grabbed the line. I started collecting them (read picking them up at the range) about two years ago or longer, so it would have to be around 2012 ... perhaps even earlier because it takes a while for R&D work to make it to market. I even have some .223 F C NT cases I picked up some time back. I have not fired a factory round of ammo in anything for several years so I'm completely off line on what's being produced by the major manufacturers. I just cast the boolits for the most part for my ammo, though I also load condoms for my rifles and some of my handguns. Big Boomer

[Shiloh]

SPP brass chink up a progressive press. I have stuck the decapper pin in the SP flash hole. Have to pry it off.

SHiloh

[Geezer in NH]

I'll bet they only make SPP for the greenies so brass for any greenie range fodder gets it.

[DocSavage]

I have both styles that way I don't have to take down the press set up be it small primer or large.

[GaryN]

I have both kinds also just in case. I usually shoot SPP.

[beagle]

Okay, for you young guys. SPPs in .45 ACP cases is not a new thing. Back in the old days when the military started developing the .45 ACP, SPPs were used. For some reason they switched to LPPs. The earlier .357 cases also used SPPs.

In messing with my article on cast loads in the .45 Ruger convertible on castpics, after chronographing many, many loads, I noticed that velocities were higher and apparent pressures were lower with cases with SPPs than with LPPS. In other words, I could get away with using a larger powder charge with a given bullet combination as long as I used SPPs than I could with LPPs. I thought about this for a while and talked with Felix and we reached the same conclusion that you guys have. We're overpowering the primer in the .45 ACP with LPPs.

To reinforce this train of thought, consider many of the .454 Casull loads. They use small primers and that's a high pressure round when the throttle is opened up.

Now, I use all the SPP .45 cases I can get.

Now, take my ramblings with a grain of salt and approach heavier loads with caution but this is what my research led to several years ago./beagle

[bruce drake]

I reform all my range pick-up SPP 45ACP into .400 Corbon so that I never mix them up when I police up after the range if I fire both calibers that day. Easy to tell the difference without even have to look at the base of the case when I bottleneck one of them. ;)

[Big Boomer]

Thanks beagle. Good to have that info. I was told that velocity decreased with SPP in the .45 ACP with a given load (didn't chrono the rounds myself - don't have one) . Interesting to find out the opposite is correct on that, at least generally speaking under your stated conditions. Big Boomer

[GaryN]

Thanks beagle. Good to have that info. I was told that velocity decreased with SPP in the .45 ACP with a given load (didn't chrono the rounds myself - don't have one) . Interesting to find out the opposite is correct on that, at least generally speaking under your stated conditions. Big Boomer

I'm not trying to put words in Beagle's mouth but I think he meant you could put in a little more powder and thus get higher speeds with the SPP. Given the exact same load you may very well get more speed with the LPP.

[GONRA]

GONRA sez you will find an odd size .204 inch diameter corrosive "large pistol primer"
in US military arsenal production .45 ACP cartridges (and maybe some of contract production?) thru WWII.
Then its all .210 inch diamter large pistol primers.
Have no idea if the switch to non corrosive occured at the same time.....