Bullet weight/design questions for my new 45-70.

[Echale3]

ok, I scored a Uberti 1885 High Wall in 45-70 off Gunbroker.com. My experience with BPCR reloading has been with a Rolling Block in 40-70 SS using a custom made LBT 400 grain WLN so I have the basics down, plus I've been reloading smokeless for 35+ years and shot cast bullets exclusively in IHMSA competition.

What I'm curious about is what weight bullet and design I should go with in this rifle.


I'm looking at buckets in the 400-500 grain range. The twist rate is 1:20 and I'm thinking, based on what I've read and calculated, that 500 grains should be about max for this rifle.


I intend on hunting with it, not shooting silhouettes, maxing out at about 200 yards, and will use either 20:1 or ACWW, probably 20:1. I'm a big proponent of a wide meplat in my 35 and under caliber cast bullets using ACWW, but with 20:1, I'm thinking that the meplat thing might not be as critical since 20:1 should mushroom pretty effectively even on deer-sized game.


Anyway, what's the collective wisdom regarding a bullet weight/design?

[rfd]

for hunting, and really good accuracy out to and just past 200 yards, i found it hard to beat the value and performance if the lyman #457193 that'll drop with 1:20 alloy at just above 400 grains, and has a decent meplat flat nose.

http://i.imgur.com/fkTgFZU.jpg

[Hiwall55]

Try the 400 grain RCBS-GC. I've yet to find one that won't shoot that one.

[Jeff Houck]

ok, I scored a Uberti 1885 High Wall in 45-70 off Gunbroker.com. My experience with BPCR reloading has been with a Rolling Block in 40-70 SS using a custom made LBT 400 grain WLN so I have the basics down, plus I've been reloading smokeless for 35+ years and shot cast bullets exclusively in IHMSA competition.

What I'm curious about is what weight bullet and design I should go with in this rifle.


I'm looking at buckets in the 400-500 grain range. The twist rate is 1:20 and I'm thinking, based on what I've read and calculated, that 500 grains should be about max for this rifle.


I intend on hunting with it, not shooting silhouettes, maxing out at about 200 yards, and will use either 20:1 or ACWW, probably 20:1. I'm a big proponent of a wide meplat in my 35 and under caliber cast bullets using ACWW, but with 20:1, I'm thinking that the meplat thing might not be as critical since 20:1 should mushroom pretty effectively even on deer-sized game.


Anyway, what's the collective wisdom regarding a bullet weight/design?

I had great success with an LBT 350 grain long flat nose in my 45-70s and 45-110.

[country gent]

The lyman 457125 is an old standby bullet 510 grns roundnose Seems to shoot good in most rifle if nose dia is right and twist rate in the rifle is correct for this length bullet. The twist rate of the barrel will determine what bullet it wants Bore and groove dia will determine size. As to style for hunting a broad round noase or flat point should work well. Another heavier bullet that seems to do well in alot of rifles is the Lyyman 535 postell.

[Tar Heel]

I vote for the Lyman 535gr Postell bullet. Should work real well for the 1:20 twist. A 1:18 rate would be best but I bet it works just fine in yours.

[Lead pot]

What I'm curious about is what weight bullet and design I should go with in this rifle.


I'm looking at buckets in the 400-500 grain range. The twist rate is 1:20 and I'm thinking, based on what I've read and calculated, that 500 grains should be about max for this rifle.


I intend on hunting with it, not shooting silhouettes, maxing out at about 200 yards, and will use either 20:1 or ACWW, probably 20:1. I'm a big proponent of a wide meplat in my 35 and under caliber cast bullets using ACWW, but with 20:1, I'm thinking that the meplat thing might not be as critical since 20:1 should mushroom pretty effectively even on deer-sized game.


Anyway, what's the collective wisdom regarding a bullet weight/design?


From what you said above I would say take a hard look at the Lyman .457-121PH http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/506017/lyman-1-cavity-bullet-mold-457121ph-45-caliber-457-diameter-475-grain-whitworth This bullet will do everything you listed you want to use it for and more. It drops a little less then .458", around .456 to .457" but this does not matter if you use 1/20 or 1/30 alloy it will fill the bore with a black powder load.

[jimofaz]

All good suggestions thus far. That Uberti H/W has a crescent butt, right? If yes, I'm thinking you might want to stay on the lighter side of 400 gr. boolits or it might get to be painful on the shoulder? My original Win. 1885 sporter has a crescent butt, and 22 grs. of 4759 under a 400 gr. boolit is about as much fun as I can stand from the bench.

My all-time best-ever groups (OK-OK, just at 50 yards so far!:wink:) have been with the NOE 460-400-FN, cast from 20-1. The first range session group results blew me away. I was thinking 'lucky fluke', so I brought rifle & ammo back for a 2nd. & then a 3rd. session. Folks, we have a winner! Bought this oversize boolit mould for my 1884 RRB Trapdoor, and thought to give it a go in the only other .45-70 Gov't. I currently own. Sights are a Pedersoli mid-range tang of dubious quality and a nice Win.-type bubble-level Axtel front globe. To be honest, the Pedersoli tang was languishing pretty-much forgotten in a cigar box full of various & sundry iron sight parts. Wish Id'a had a better quality rear tang sight to screw down on her, but it is what it is, for now anyways. 'Tis OK for set distances and all. I would expect this fat of a bullet to not want to easily chamber in some rifles. It can best be reduced in size if needed, by a nose-first push-thru sizer. I make my own, but the Lee & NOE offerings are good too I have found. Hope I did the pis attachment right ... first timer.
Jim
159950

[jimofaz]

If you want a 'softer' wheel-weight alloy boolit for hunting or maybe due to leading issues from a too-hard or poor-fit-to-the-chamber cast boolit, take a gander at the attached article from my now-deceased friend and most-excellent cast boolit metallurgist, Bil Ferguson, of Sierra Vista AZ ( otherwise know as 'The Antimony Man' in sadly now days gone by.)

Jim

159951

[Echale3]

Thanks for all the info and advice, guys. A lot of it pretty well confirms what I'd figured would be the case, basically it's all the same stuff that I'd learned from shooting cast bullets over Goex FFg in my old Rolling Block in 40-70 SS. I wish I still had that rifle, but this one will do just great.

Anyway, now I have a pretty good idea of where I'll start.

I finally took delivery of the rifle yesterday. The critical stuff--the bore, crown, and chamber--are excellent and the trigger pull is very nice. It's one of the round-barreled Uberti 1885 versions with a shotgun butt, not the curved butt like the other versions. The wood is a bit dinged up, but that's not really an issue with me. That said, I do intend on stripping off the shiny poly finish and refinishing it in oil.

Now to save my pennies and get the brass, dies, mold, etc., and to get a set of sights for it. There's only a front sight and a weaver scope base on it. I've got my eye on a Shaver tang sight and a globe front. Not inexpensive, but they seem to be of excellent quality, and worth the asking price.

160172

[rfd]

she sure looks like a dandy .45-70! i think you'll really like that cartridge, particularly for hunting. on the cheap, you might wanna consider the lee 457-450-f mould, has a nice meplat and could be a fine hunting bullet out to 200yds and maybe beyond.

http://www.titanreloading.com/image/cache/data/Products/90375-250x250.jpg

though i have moulds by lyman, baco, noe and others, i do have a gaggle of lee aluminum moulds, they all work quite good and yesterday i cast a bunch of the lee 459-500-3r bullets for long range shooting ... these lightweight moulds can help with heavy bullets and long casting sessions, and they come up to casting temps fast and i never need to prep the moulds other than de-oiling with brake cleaner fluid.

as to sights, i use lee shaver supreme's on my bpcrs, with hadley multi aperture eyecups, for both vernier tang w/micrometer windage and front spirit globe. they work exceptionally well. i'd also use lee's economy vernier w/fixed eyecup and it's good workhorse sight for sure.

y'all might wanna consider loading fire formed brass. in doing so, the only die's you need are one for powder compression and a .460 or .461 straight wall expander only for expanding new brass so you can push in the bullet. orient the case the same way in the chamber and after firing just deprime, clean, reload. i also use a .459 lee bullet sizer, and dip lube the grease groove bullets and cookie cut out with a case - buy commercial lube or better yet just make yer own, it's too easy. you can buy a wad punch to make wads out of most any material (i use milk carton and newsprint), just need a hammer to bang them out, i use a cornell press wad punch, but they all do the same thing with the exact same results. add in some 1:20 alloy, good black powder, some large rifle primers, and yer set for easy, no muss, no fuss loading that produces quite accurate cartridges. do enjoy!

http://i.imgur.com/SLIVjrK.jpg

[Toymaker]

Oh, but you are going to have fun with that rifle.
As pretty much defined already, don't waste your time with a bullet lighter than 400 grains. The Lyman 457-193 was where accuracy really started for me. As the bullets got bigger, the accuracy got better. As to style, the Lyman is a flat nose but as I got heavier I gravitated toward the Postell and Creedmoor round nose. When using black powder (Goex) a 20:1 alloy worked very nicely. For smokeless I went to 30:1. Even did some work with pure lead which worked very well also.
I've posted these before in other threads.
160217 160218 These are 5-shot groups at 100 yards, off the bench. At 200 yards the groups didn't get that much larger, maybe 2 or 3 inches. In competitions I've shot 40 to 50 rounds with no concerns over recoil. The rifle weighs a little over 11 pounds.

[Echale3]

I'm considering molds from NOE and from Accurate. I've purchased from both before, and they both provide top notch molds that will drop very close to the diameter I specify with the alloy I specify. I'd considered Lee molds since they are inexpensive but I've had spotty luck with their molds, and I want this to be right on from the git-go.

I'm looking at modified Whitworth type designs like the NOE 460-405 RF and the Accurate 46-500V. All are very similar--a plain base bullet with big grease grooves and a whopper of a meplat. I will definitely go for something in between 400-500 grains but probably no heavier than 500 grains since the twist rate on the Uberti is only 1:20.

Thanks, too, for the advice on the Shaver sights, I'll definitely be going with a set as soon as I can afford it.

I've got my eye on the wad cutter at BACO and the powder compression fitting for RCBS reloading dies, too.

Unfortunately, one of my dogs just had $3000 emergency surgery, so I'll have to hold off a bit to let the checkbook cool off before dropping some coin on the bits and pieces I need, but it'll happen soon enough.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have had great success with the Lyman 495 gn "Mathews" tapered boolit. seated out of the case you can load 77gns FFG

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-rifles.php?entryID=78

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/My_cast_45.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/My_cast_45.jpg.html)

[SSGOldfart]

she sure looks like a dandy .45-70! i think you'll really like that cartridge, particularly for hunting. on the cheap, you might wanna consider the lee 457-450-f mould, has a nice meplat and could be a fine hunting bullet out to 200yds and maybe beyond.

http://www.titanreloading.com/image/cache/data/Products/90375-250x250.jpg

though i have moulds by lyman, baco, noe and others, i do have a gaggle of lee aluminum moulds, they all work quite good and yesterday i cast a bunch of the lee 459-500-3r bullets for long range shooting ... these lightweight moulds can help with heavy bullets and long casting sessions, and they come up to casting temps fast and i never need to prep the moulds other than de-oiling with brake cleaner fluid.

as to sights, i use lee shaver supreme's on my bpcrs, with hadley multi aperture eyecups, for both vernier tang w/micrometer windage and front spirit globe. they work exceptionally well. i'd also use lee's economy vernier w/fixed eyecup and it's good workhorse sight for sure.

y'all might wanna consider loading fire formed brass. in doing so, the only die's you need are one for powder compression and a .460 or .461 straight wall expander only for expanding new brass so you can push in the bullet. orient the case the same way in the chamber and after firing just deprime, clean, reload. i also use a .459 lee bullet sizer, and dip lube the grease groove bullets and cookie cut out with a case - buy commercial lube or better yet just make yer own, it's too easy. you can buy a wad punch to make wads out of most any material (i use milk carton and newsprint), just need a hammer to bang them out, i use a cornell press wad punch, but they all do the same thing with the exact same results. add in some 1:20 alloy, good black powder, some large rifle primers, and yer set for easy, no muss, no fuss loading that produces quite accurate cartridges. do enjoy!

http://i.imgur.com/SLIVjrK.jpg
Damn Nice Set of Rifles I'm jealous of them

[rfd]

my fave all around long distance .45-70 bullet is still the BACO 4549525M3 money, dropping at about 522 grains with 1:20 alloy. i'm still testing out the LEE 459-500-3R, will get to shoot it up to 1000 yards this spring.

sharps are fine, too ... another one in .45-70 just added.

http://i.imgur.com/Jj81jCG.jpg

[Echale3]

she sure looks like a dandy .45-70! i think you'll really like that cartridge, particularly for hunting. on the cheap, you might wanna consider the lee 457-450-f mould, has a nice meplat and could be a fine hunting bullet out to 200yds and maybe beyond.

http://www.titanreloading.com/image/cache/data/Products/90375-250x250.jpg



Hey RFD--I slugged my bore at 0.4583" so I may be in business since every LEE mold I ever had cast at least a few thousandths (sometimes more than a few!) oversize. Just thinking out loud, 20-1 would have a tiny bit more of a shrink rate than the COWW I use for smokeless, though, but probably not enough to make much of a difference between the two. Dropping $20 for that or any of the other LEE 45-70 molds and hoping for one that casts fairly close to 0.459 seems worth the gamble...

[rfd]

i love a good aluminium mould, and though i do use more than a few lee moulds it's always a bit hit-or-miss with them for both dropped size and concentricity. you could also use less tin, say 1:30. recently i've been mostly casting at 1:25.

[brad925]

I have that same rifle and it shoots the 535 Postell well. I shoot it as cast using ww's which comes out at .459" and using IMR 3031 withloads at BP velocities. 36.5grns. It also likes the Lee 405HB bullet. I also modified anothe Lee 405HB mold to a flat base that it also likes. These molds have deep lube grooves and hold lots of lube. Lyman 535 Postell does not have as deep a lube grooves but has more of them which allows it to hold enough lube for that long barrel. I have tried anothe 405 lee mold that was flat based and shallow lube grooves but with a hollow point but experienced leading the last 3" of the barrel and i attributed that to just not holding enough lube for that long barrel.

[griffiga]

I have been loading and shooting .45-70 cast and jacketed bullets for the better part of 40 years and for hunting, I always come back to the Lee 405 grain. I have all but worn that mold out over the years, but it still casts good projectiles. I also have a lee 300 HP and 500 as well as a pointed 500 grain (don't remember the maker on that one). When loading smokeless, I like 29 grains of IMR 4198 with the 405. Velocity out of my 22 inch Trapdoor carbine is around 1300 fps but I get 3 inch groups at 100 yards. That very load has accounted for numerous deer and a few Elk as well as a coyote or two. I have never had an animal run off, albeit I keep range to under 150 yards.