what to choose

[calsite]

My brother has just purchased a 15 acre farm in northern Minnesota right on lake Superior. Aparently there are some black bear that frequent these parts and he is looking for some bear medicine in a fairly small package. I was planning on giving him a S&W Model 64 2 1/2 snub in .38 Spec but I'm wondering if that would be enough gun to deter a P.O.'d momma bear. Other than a .44 Vaquero, I really don't want to part with anything else from my collection right now and was considering selling the S&W snubbie and use the funds on something else for him. So guys if you had 400.00 and wanted something that would fill this bill, what would you be looking for.

I will say that I've already thought about a Taurus Judge, and would like to hear some feedback on that piece if there are owners out there.

[trickyasafox]

870 with slugs?

if you had to do a pistol, why not a nice used 357 wheel gun in a 4-6in tube.

[freedom475]

Short Blackhawk or SBH in 44mag or handloaded 45colt. with $400 to spend you would still have some money left for ammo and have a very nice companyion.

I knew of a blackbear that was killed and 5 old 38slugs were found in the roof of its mouth! That's not very good odds for the old 38.


What's the baby saying to Hitlery in you avadar

[Scrounger]

First choices would be a Marlin or maybe a 12 gauge with slugs or buckshot. If you're thinking pistol, and apparently this fellow is not a gun person, I'd buy him a .45 auto. Most people can manage that much power, it's easily portable, and easy to operate.

[carpetman]

Tell your brother he doesnt need a gun for black bear. They are timid and can usually be frightened away with just a little bell. Every great once in a while he might run across one that is a little more aggressive and all he needs then is pepper spray. That is black bears. If he sees grizzly poop get out of the area as fast as possible. How can he tell if it's grizzly poop? It has little bells in it and smells like pepper.

[Bret4207]

I grew up and lived in the heart of NY's black bear country. The chances of having a problem with a bear are about as great as my having a torrid affair with Hillary. I only knew 2 or 3 people had issues with bears, only one had multiple issues. He used a 38-40 revolver and had no complaints. A 38 and 170-180 gr boolits, HTWW maybe, at 950-1100 fps would do fine.

[Dale53]

I backpacked in black bear country for years. I only had a "problem" one time. I was "treed" for six hours by a momma bear with cubs. Not much fun. I was in a Nat'l Park and not permitted to carry a gun. I promised the good Lord that I would NOT put myself in this situation again without a gun. I kept the promise.

Later, I got close to a ranger and he told me of all of the maulings that occur in the park. Park bears are DANGEROUS. They seem to lose their fear of man. It is Park policy to keep the maulings, as much as possible, out of the press. Bad for "business" doncha know!

Nothing less than a .44 magnum or heavily loaded .45 Colt is really suitable for bear. You also had better be a good shot under pressure (this means practice). I have only harvested one bear but when you skin them their structure will show you how they do the unbelievable things they can do with little effort. I have been in on the "autopsy" of about 35 bears - awesome structure and musculature.

Be careful.

Dale53

[waksupi]

I'm in bear country, and if one is concerned about them, a 12 gauge shotgun would be the best medicine. Forget the little pistols. .38 and .45ACP may not get through the hair, let alone the hide.
As has been said, black bears are generally not all that aggresive, and it would be unusual for a sow to bring small cubs around the buildings. And it is generally the cubs that will be the cause of an attack. Stay away from them.
I've had very little trouble with bears. I did have one get into a bunch of deer hides I had piled up to tan. Strong attractant, so I was the one at fault. Can't complain about a bear, being a bear.

[ktw]

We have a black bear with cubs living in the back yard. We see them regularly every year in the spring and early summer.

I don't think a gun is necessary. We simply take a few simple precautions like don't let the kids play out in the back 40 unsupervised during that time of year and don't leave food out for them (the bears, we do make a point of feeding the kids).

-ktw

[beagle]

Got a friend in VT with the same problem. His solution is a Marlin 336 .35 Rem with the barrel chopped to the shortest legal length for ease of carrying. I usually send him a bunch of cast every year or so for squirrels marauding his sugar lines./beagle

[trickyasafox]

KTW- that's pretty funny!

[runfiverun]

maybe thats why the bears are doin so good , and my kids keep dyin?

[Blammer]

take your $400 and find a gun that starts with a 4 in the caliber.

that's my humble suggestion.

Never ran into a black bear, never even seen one. But that's what I'd want.

[freedom475]

I have shot several Blackies with a handgun. Stay away from 45acp's and 38's ...Finished off a wounded bear at 5 feet with ACP once. Shot it right in the back of the head, the bear folded over dead. Looked like the bullet (230gr. ball) came out its eye. WRONG, after skinning it I found the slug under the eye-brow, the bullet just got under the hide and followed it over his head. never even fractured the skull.

Same story with a 44mag, walked up and poked a downed blackie in the butt with my boot. He jumped up and ran, fired at about 5 feet and almost blew his head off. There was ears and a nose and nothing left in between.

Don't be fooled...the young predatory male black bear is the most dangerous bear there is. He thinks your food. Even the so-called experts agree that there is only one way to stop this ....Fatality...yours or his.

Pepper is for eggs not spray. The only way to startle a mother with cubs and fool her grand nose is if the wind is in your face or from the side...that cloud of pepper will work real good when it blows away or right back in your face.

Was carrying my SCREAMMING 2year old son on my back, just about dark, when a large blackie ran out of the woods right up to me,..looking down both barrels of my 72cal. Kodiak and the 3 dogs at my side I guess he figured is wasn't a good place to stop for a snack and he quickly vanished back ino the timber.

[Lloyd Smale]

black bear protection is a joke. I live in the same area as ktw and we have bear right in our yard and they dont bother a thing. they are much more scared of you then you are of them. Ive lived hear all my live and even had a friends dad who had fed them. These bear are brown bear and wont attack you unprovoked. Ive killed them with everything from a bow to a 22 to a 500 linebaugh. They arent any harder to kill then a deer. thing is that you need to keep in mind that even a deer hit by a handgun of any caliber isnt going to drop in its tracks. A wounded bears first reaction is going to be to run away but if your in that path there may be trouble. Stopping a wounded bear is not something id want to have any handgun to do. If hunting bear especially over dogs where you need to be conserned about the dogs id use at least a 44 mag or 45 colt and if your not good under pressure with a handgun a lever gun in the same caliber will work. If i was being attacked id prefer a 4570 or a 12 guage but im not toting one around all day just in case i get attacked by a bear that has heard me and is in another county allready. I get a charge out of guys that want to make black bear seem dangerous and carry a gun to protect themselves from them in the woods. Ive neve personaly heard of anyone being attacked or even having a mock attack up here other then bear hunters that are persuing them and most of those incounters are in the spring bear hunt areas where there are cubs around.

[Three44s]

With a $400 budget I would strongly recommend a Ruger BH in .45 Colt ...... but that said, I would spring more $ and get the .45 Long Colt/.45 ACP convertible BH.

The .45 ACP's would help for practice and the .45 LC's for woods carry.

The shorter barrels like 4 5/8" are best carry pieces but longer tubes give one longer sighting radiuses. It's all about compromise.

And take up handloading.

Three 44s

[BruceB]

It's obvious that there's a wide range of opinion on the subject of bears and the risks they pose or don't pose to humans. Allow me to speak from experience for a moment.

In our case, (my immediate family, that is), we lived for decades in the bear country of the Northwest Territories, and by that, I mean our residence was twenty miles out in the bush, away from civilization. I also worked in the bush and barren lands on mineral exploration and guiding hunters from tent camps, winter and summer, usually with only one or two other men in camp. In the course of this exposure, we met black, griz and polar bears but the majority of encounters involved black bears.

My experience with the animals boils down to one rock-solid conclusion: whatever bear it may be, where-ever it may be, whatever time of year the encounter happens, I CANNOT PREDICT WHAT THAT PARTICULAR BEAR IS GOING TO DO! Sometimes they are wusses, sometimes they stand their ground, and sometimes......you'd better have a good hole card and be prepared to use it!

Daily routine in the working camps was to take a rifle out of camp when leaving in the morning, cache it some distance away, and pick it up on the way back in. This paid-off MANY times, as we'd often find a bear in camp which had to be dealt with. I also carried a heavy-loaded .44 mag revolver religiously, all day, every day, and it was kept very handy at night, too.

I was FORCED to kill an ATTACKING black bear at muzzle-flash range in camp one morning, maybe 2 feet off the muzzle of a .303 Jungle Carbine...there's no doubt that it was a serious and determined charge and I was fortunate to weather the situation. This was a wilderness bear, a good 80-100 miles from any road or other civilization. On another occasion, a healthy black bear killed a young man in his sleeping bag, less than a mile from my home, and partially ate the body before being destroyed.

Others may poo-poo the risks of being in bear country. My experience does not allow me that luxury, and I am very much on edge in such areas. I've also been stalked by grizzlies and polar bears, and in polar bear country the rifle was carried all day, not cached near camp. That white SOB is the top of the food chain, and human or not, we are just a different sort of grub to the great beasts.

I do not minimize the danger of black bears, either, in any way. To do so is a serious mistake. Precautions may never be needed, but if you get the wrong bear on a bad day, the precautions (which cost nothing) may prove to be the most-valuable thing you've done in a long time....maybe in your entire life.

I have no faith whatever in shotguns as anti-bear medicine, but that's just me. I've never had occasion to use a shotgun on bears, nor do I have any desire to do so. I want a decent rifle with good penetration. Anything from a .30-30 on up will work fine at extreme close range, and my camp-defence rifles in the Barrens and treeline camps were a pair of M-14 rifles....one with a light for night work and the other with its issue sights for daytime. The 7.62 NATO with 180 Partitions is awesomely effective at close range, and the 20-round mags help in the confidence factor too.

Jeff Cooper said it well, and I've quoted this statement from him on many occasions:

"The law of averages is faint comfort if YOU are the exception."

Exactly.

[Beaverhunter2]

I'm not wanting to start an argument but I'll give you my perspective on it.

I did have a run-in with a black bear when I was 15 (28 years ago). We startled each other and he chose the fight option of his "fight or flight" instinct. He got out of it with some black powder burns and I got out of it with some cuts. The encounter left me with one scar (that's only visible when I have a tan), a scratched up muzzleloader, and a healthy respect for what a medium-sized black bear could do in a short period of time. The whole encounter was certainly less than a minute. Worked out good for everyone, I guess.

I'm usually carrying a gun when I'm in the woods alone. However, if my kids are with me- it's guaranteed. I used to carry a HK USP45. Now I carry a 7 1/2" SRH 480 in a nice, comfortable bandolier holster. My brother questioned me about always carrying a gun when I'm in the woods. He said, "Odds are you'll never need it." I told him that was true, but when my kids are with me I could carry that gun for twenty years, never take it out of the holster- and still be glad it was there. I don't really care about "the odds" 'cause I'll never gamble with my kids' safety!

BTW I have used the carry gun to take out a few wild dogs, finished off a car-hit deer, and reduce a few rotten stumps to sawdust over the years. One other benefit I see is that carrying a pistol and occasionally shooting it sure makes your responses more fluid, automatic, and accurate.

I guess my last point would be, "Why should you not carry one?"

John

[DanWalker]

My answer:
Ruger blackhawk in 45LC with a 4 5/8 barrel.
Use the leftover money and a bit more to buy a Wyoming combination holster to carry it in.
This gives you a light powerful sidearm in an easy to put on and take off holster. Nothing is more aggravating to me than a holster that's a pain to put on and take off.

[leftiye]

I read a story once in a magazine about three teenage kids that were killed by a black bear. Bear just walked right through them. Then stuffed them under some tree roots to rot and become more tasty. Bodies were found half eaten several days later.

Several points: First, there were three of them, and they didn't stand a chance. Second, no human unarmed has any way to defeat any of the large predators, survive - maybe, overcome - not gonna happen. Third, Black bears have been educated by natural selection to be afraid of humans - yes - (them that weren't afraid died pretty much, and didn't procreate). But you're still food, and if the bear forgets to be afraid (and it happens all the time) - you're toast. So carry AT LEAST a .45 Colt, carry it forever, even if you never see a bear. Even if you do see a bear and it runs, count yerself lucky.

[Wayne Smith]

Calsite, do some research on bear attacks. You will find that the young male black bear is the most dangerous of the bears. He is the only one that will actively hunt you when he decides he wants you. The female will only attack when protecting young and then has a specific radius of protection, outside of that radius you are safe. The young male will actively hunt you, staying out of sight, tracking you, and ambushing you when you think you are safe. Freedom and BruceB are right, you cannot predict the behavior of a bear.

As far as carry guns, a single action revolver in 38-40, 44-40, 44 Special, or 44 Mag would be my suggestions. A carbine in .30-30 and up would be appropriate but more of a burden and more likely to be left home/put down briefly.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont get me wrong guys. Im probably the last one to wander in the woods without a handgun. rabid animals wild dogs and our most recent predetors the grey wolf are more of a problem then bear to me. I also want one for a survival tool in case god forbid i got lost. Nothing better to feed yourself with or signal for help with and its just conforting when the sun goes down. Sorry but i dont buy into the big black bear fear thing. Id bet about 90 percent of the attacks on people on record were on inexperinced people that didnt have any woods sense or yuppies that though they could go and pet old smokey! Ive had neighbors that have chased them off there porches with brooms! Biggest problem ive ever seen them create around here is tearing up your garbage or trashing a bird feeder. I lived in this area all my life and have never talked to even one person that felt he needed to be armed because of the bear in the woods and this dnr district has the highest bear per square mile ratio in michigan. I have talked to people recently that have bought handguns because of the increased wolf population though. I knew one old lady that took a broom handle with her picking berrrys so she could kick them out of her patch if they were there if that counts.

[Dale53]

My Canadian Bear Guide was also a trapper in the wintertime. He had lots of years of experience with black bears. He truly liked them and respected them. He made a clear point of telling my pards and I that Bears are emotionally unstable. One out of twenty will try to take you. But, and here is the real "but", tomorrow a different bear will try to take you. As BruceB so aptly pointed out, they are totally unpredictable.

The power is almost unbelievable. I, at one time, ran a large Chevrolet Body Shop. This area is close enough to the Smoky Mountains that a lot of people here vacation there. I once had a brand new Camaro in the shop. A bear wanted the food in a cooler in the locked trunk of the car. He merely hooked the edge of the trunk lid with his clawws and opened it. One movement and he was in the trunk. The trunk lid was three layers of sheet steel.

Food for thought...

Me, I'll carry when exposed. THAT is for sure.

Dale53

[45r]

45 colt or 454 casull loaded with 300 grain boolits and a healthy dose of H-110 would be what I'd use in bear country.You won't be worried about the recoil if a bear thinks you look like dinner.I like my 45 colt redhawk and 454 F/A for handgun use and like my Marlin 45 colt CB for rifle use if bears might be around.I like 45's the most for deer also.The new redhawk in 45 colt with the 4 inch barrel would be easy to pack.

[calsite]

Well, thanks for all of your thoughts, I found a Ruger Security Six, .357 mag for a couple hundred bucks. I'm going to bring up my .44 Mag Vaquero and the Sec. Six, have him try them both out and let him pick. He'll also be receiving a 12 gauge pump and a lot of buckshot. I've got a cousin who bowhunts black bears in that area and has taken bear weighing up to 400 lbs. anything weighing over 200 lbs. with claws I'm a bit leary of. I'm hoping he or my dad never has a bad encounter with a bear up there. But if they do I want them to have something.

[Bret4207]

I don't know what kind of black bears you guys are running into but I've seen several killed in foot hold traps (quite illegal) with 22's and 22 mags. All were head shots and none took more than one. If you're body shooting them you're still dealing with an animal the size and general build of a man. The 400+ pounders are usually dump bears or bears from near a carcass dump for road killed animals. A Grizz is a whole 'nuther animal. I mean no offense but I'm with Lloyd, you have more to fear from rabid dogs and druggies than bears.

[9.3X62AL]

Black bears--meth monsters--and feral dogs all deserve the best, and the best comes in a caliber that starts with a "4" in its name--as stated above. Bears usually do run off mui pronto--except when they don't--and I had that happen once. "Emotionally unstable".......that's a pretty good descriptor.

I often have a M-686 x 4" on board when I go into the backcountry, but if the area has a concentration of bears--the 10mm is a minimum, and a rifle is either close by or slung up.

[rugerdude]

Bears are one thing we don't worry about much in this part of the world. Having said that, I have ventured into places where they tend to raise one's concerns. On those occasions, a .44 Mag. was my constant companion. Even if I didn't use it, it was still a nice comfort to know I had it if it was needed. Seeing as how you have come to a decision on what guns to offer your brother, I will venture forth some ammo options. If they handload, suggest they use good, heavy for caliber, hardcast lead. The bigger the meplat on the bullet the better. If they don't handload, suggest either the Federal Castcore loads or Cor-Bon's hardcast Hunter loads. Hopefully they will never have a problem, but if they do having some kind of protection is NEVER a bad thing!

[Miner]

Put another $200 into a Ruger 454 Alaskan. Factory ammo will kick a black bears booty.

240 gr (16 g) JHP 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) 1,923 ft·lbf (2,607 J)
300 gr (19 g) JHP 1,650 ft/s (500 m/s) 1,831 ft·lbf (2,483 J)

[MT Gianni]

Another vote against pepper spray. It may work but will be effective only on a charging bear not a curious one. The charge will continue in the direction it was headed when sprayed with the results the same whether acting by sight or feel. "Experts" say to spray then quickly and quietly step to the side and allot the bear to pass. I carry something I can get to and have the mind set that I will continue to shoot even if said bear is chewing on me. A positive, confidant attitude works wonders among animals. Gianni

[9.3X62AL]

Pepper spray is appropriate for the "attacking human force continuum"--the spray is ludicrous for an attacking bear. Pepper spray is like martial arts--it assumes a semi-cooperative opponent that is schooled in a similar discipline and that stays within that training matrix.

There is some profound confusion concerning the roles and applicability of defensive counter-measures. We carry 38 Special and 9mm Luger for defensive purposes against armed assailants, while a lot of ambivalence is expressed over the use of the 357 Magnum for mid-sized unaggressive herbivores like deer--while The Experts advocate pepper spray for use against bears--a species that can fark you up but good. Unbelievable.

[odoh]

Grew up in CA and what bear contact there was, was fleeting. Very shy (away from campgrounds/parks) and that became my baseline for how I seen/felt about blackies ~ Until.

Until I took up elk hunting. Hunted ID and CO and have had 4 contacts w/blacks. I'll be darned if I didn't repeatedly perceive each one to be how I had learned them to be back home ~ and each time I was wrong. Each time, they knew of my presence before I knew of theirs. Each encounter they moved so quick I wondered if I could lift the rifle up and disengage the safety in time for an effective shot IF it had been an attack. Still, I felt safe from my pre-established perspective that they were 'shy'. However, after each contact, I found that the bear had circled back behind me and checked me out w/o my knowlege. Evidenced by their tracks on mine in the early snow and in one case steaming skat on my track.

My recent ~ probably my last was a bear that was working on a gutpile as my hunting 'buddy' and I were driving thru a patch of timber. After it dashed off, I continued hearing busting brush/saplings on parallel course to my own. After abit, found myslelf swearing about hunting buddies w/size 14 feet ~ until we came out onto a logging trail and Dave was way up the trail from me and no way was the source of the crashing sounds.

I shutter when thinking back just how careless I have been in dismissing black bears ~ and seeing how fast they can move brings chills ~ I owe God that I've not been dinner. I just don't belong in bear country ~

[leftiye]

Oh yeah! When THEY hunt YOU they're d@%& good hunters, silent and invisible - probly until it's too late (D@$% fast then). I really hope this doesn't turn out too prophetic for anyone that we know!

[Linstrum]

As far as pistols go, like was said above, anything that begins with a 4 and burns a lot of powder behind the boolit! I have seen .45-70 revolvers, but the Smith & Wesson .500 is even better, or whatever that monster hand cannon is called. I know the S&W caliber begins with a 5 and not a 4, but that's obviously a good thing! But being practical, a .44 Magnum is what I'd carry.

The best bear medicine that can come out of a 12 gauge is a 1 oz slug. That is 437.5 grains of MEAN lead. But nine 00 buck ain't all that bad, either.

I grew up in Southern California back in the 40s and 50s just around 60 miles north of Los Angeles up by Camarillo and Somis out in the hills of Santa Rosa Valley. I had bears and cougars follow me once in great while when I was out in the lima bean fields at dusk, I would find the tracks on top of mine the next evening where the critter had followed me. I had a Mosin-Nagant I carried with me back then.

Bing Crosby's first parents-in-law were my next door neighbors back then and Mrs. Bing Crosby-In-Law (Marie Wyatt) couldn't keep a miniature poodle more than a few weeks before something would come down out of the hills and eat it. One time up in the lemon orchard above their mansion I found one of the collars with the engraved gold tag that said "Fifi". Still had the little gold jingle bell on it, too.